Nevada Libertarian Assemblyman John Moore has shared with the LNC a redacted version of his rationale for two controversial votes he cast, one to enable the Clark County Commission to raise taxes to fund police and one to subsidize football stadium construction by Sheldon Adelson, who is trying to bring the Raiders to Las Vegas. Moore was originally asking that his response be shared only with members of the LNC because it contained statements about the LP Nevada executive committee, which has censured him for those votes. The national committee is currently voting on its own motion to censure Moore, with some members having expressly held back their votes until they heard his response. Starchild threatened to make the full response public unless Moore provided a redacted version for the public, whereupon Moore did so. His response reads:
To the Libertarian National Committee, I will address your concerns with how I voted on the two bills during the Special Session. The “more cops tax”
Please get your facts correct before you or anyone else makes false statements. Not one member of the Nevada Assembly voted to increase any tax regarding the ‘More cops tax” This bill only gave the Clark County commissioners permission if THEY CHOOSE to increase the sales tax in Clark County. It was an ENABLING bill NOT a tax increase of any sort. To date no tax increase has been done. So please once again, get your facts correct, don’t play on words.
The Convention center expansion / Stadium issue.
I stand by my deciding vote 100% I polled 47% (13,000 people) out of 28,000 active voters in my district to see how they felt about the issue, 62% supported it 36% did not support it and 2% had no opinion of it. I represent FIRST and foremost the people of my district and not a political party. I have never and will never put party objectives above the will of the people that I represent.
By choosing to censure me you are in FACT forcing your will upon me and everyone that does not agree with you. How is that true freedom or Liberty? NAP?
Where were all of the Libertarians when it came time to testify during the Assembly hearings that were held during the special session? Only two, count them, two people from the libertarian party testified at the Assembly hearings. Even the Nevada state party chairman who was present chose not to testify before the Assembly.
This bill will put thousands of out of work Nevadans back to work during the life of the construction of the stadium and the convention center expansion, 3-5 years. The expansion of the convention center is a must as Las Vegas is running out of convention space and many of the major conventions have stated that they will be forced to leave and go someplace else. CES for example brings over $160 million dollars to the Las Vegas local economy when they are here. That is not a small amount.
When Governor Sandoval called me the morning of the vote to discuss the bill, I informed him that the vote would be very close but that I felt it did not have the votes to pass at the time of the conversation, however he had another proclamation waiting in case the measure failed and he would call us right back into another special session and this time the bill would only need a majority to pass instead of a two thirds majority. It would be an enabling bill and it would be exactly the same as the more cops bill, meaning it would give the Clark County Commission the authority to pass it if they chose to. This bill was going to pass with or without my deciding vote.
This bill does not effect any Nevadian unless that person chooses to stay in a hotel and then the increase is approx. $1.25 per day. Please do not try and put forth the argument that indigent folks that stay in weekly hotels will be punished as a result. Some people tried to argue that those folks can not afford the deposits to rent an apartment or a house and that is why they are so called “forced” to stay in a weekly hotel. Even the weekly hotels charge a deposit prior to any stay.
My response to those that find my deciding vote so “reprehensible” is this, Please do not attend any NFL game, UNLV game, concert or any other event that will be held at the stadium. Also do not patronize any business that may be built in and around the stadium as a result of the stadium being built. Do not attend any conventions that will be held at the convention center as a result of the expansion. Do not take any job that may be offered as a result of the stadium or convention center expansion because then you would be receiving a direct benefit of the very thing that you find so “reprehensible” and that would make you a true hypocrite. “Practice what you preach” You don’t get to have it both ways.
I hope this lengthy explanation helps you to understand my thought process and my deciding vote of which I stand by 100%.
Thank you for your time, John Moore Nevada State Assembly
So far, the votes I have been able to find on the LNC motion to censure are:
YES: Hayes, Redpath, McKnight, O’Toole, Goldstein, Harlos, Vohra,
NO: Moellman (ALT), Hewitt,
Because the discussion and business lists are now merged into one and a lot of discussion has gone back and forth on this subject, those were the only actual votes I found in the relevant threads. Additions and corrections are welcome. The remaining LNC members have until October 31, 2016 at 11:59:59pm Pacific time (tonight) to cast their votes, as the ballot has been open for ten days, and those who have already voted can change their votes until the close of balloting. Alternates’ votes are only counted if their region rep does not vote. So far the only vote by an alternate I found was Moellman, who has offered arguments for his vote to the list (for example here). His region rep, Brett Bittner, said he plans to vote on the motion but wanted to hear from John Moore first.
For some background on the stadium issue from Anthony Fisher at reason.com see here.
Additional LNC discussions of the issue:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lncvotes/QlFM6diPz8U/hAo-BdJmAwAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lncvotes/gSim7axLmm8/6hhEHTYJAwAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lncvotes/csKqVKphsL0/4aTnJCv2BQAJ
Just checked the website version of the list. I did not miss it.
Final count
YES: Hayes, Redpath, McKnight, O’Toole/Demarest, Goldstein, Harlos, Vohra, Starchild, Lark
NO: Moellman (ALT – counted), Hewitt, Katz, Marsh, Mattson, Hagan
Express abstention: Bilyeu
9-6-1
Still haven’t seen the results officially reported on the list – did I miss it?
Paulie: I have posted previously about how I drifted away from the LP and how some of my views changed.
Not ALL of my posts are against libertarianism. I have posted probably over 500 pro Johnson / Weld messages.
The tone of my post depends on the topic. Some positions I agree with and some I don’t . I’d rather have it that way than be a drone.
An old issue? I didn’t keep them all, but I found about 5 or 6 from different years (one of which has a letter to the editor from me) and a few of FREE NY.
But then again, I don’t have to justify myself to you. You keep telling me that you are some long-time LP activist like that should mean something to me. There are 350 million people in this country. The odds that we interacted are not good. I’ve never gone to an LP convention (being incarcerated kinda made that difficult). Plus, if I had spoken to you for more than a minute, I would have been repulsed by your crap.
I have made an effort to show that I am who I say I am (but maybe my government handlers set the picture up!!). You can either look at it, or stop whining that nobody knows me. Plenty of people know me, but no one who would want to be associated with a conspiracy theorist. 🙂
“Tony From Long Island
November 1, 2016 at 08:15
Oh, Andy my friend, I did take a picture of me with some old LP News issues this morning. It was a bit of a hassle since I have a flip phone with no camera, but just for my buddy Andy, I found a way. So, how do I get this picture to you so you can tell me that it is photoshopped?”
Having an old issue of LP News is not really proof of anything. I have been a known Libertarian activist since the 1990’s and I’ve never heard of you, and I don’t know of anyone who has ever heard of you.
I don’t know if you are who you say you are or not, but the way you act has my bullshit detector going off.
Poll: 62 percent believe broader plot killed Kennedy
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2013/11/20/poll-62-percent-believe-broader-plot-killed-kennedy/
Ben Swann Truth in Media: More Americans “Rethinking” 9/11?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7tSfwkKaUo
When you’ve been around someone a lot they tend to have little quirks and habits that become annoying. I’m sure my quirks are just as annoying to those who have spent a lot of time with me. We’re ornery people. That’s not the same thing as being not of sound mind.
Oh, Andy my friend, I did take a picture of me with some old LP News issues this morning. It was a bit of a hassle since I have a flip phone with no camera, but just for my buddy Andy, I found a way. So, how do I get this picture to you so you can tell me that it is photoshopped?
TK: You are right. But asking who knew what when and not putting the pieces together is not “an inside job.”
Yes, there are questions. Everything you list is valid, but that is not what Andy espouses. He espouses the “inside job” garbage,. I have no qualms about calling him out at every opportunity. I do not do that against anyone else on here.
Jill may find that upsetting but that doesn’t change what Andy is.
Am I perfect? Not at all. So, when I start spouting ridiculous conspiracy theories, feel free to call me on it.
“Thomas Knapp
November 1, 2016 at 08:08
Tony,
Lots and lots of people have questions about what happened on 9/11. Don’t conflate those people with the small cult who have decided that 9/11 was an “inside job,” even though they’ve been unable to come up with a crumb of evidence to sustain that belief in 15 years, because because they want it to have been an inside job.”
There’s been a shitload of evidence that points to 9/11 having been an inside job, but I suppose that a guy who criticizes the Johnson/Weld campaign for months but then goes out and votes for them anyway is too irrational and naive to recognize this.
Haven’t kept up with the polls but 36% questioning what really happened on 9/11 is the stat I remember seeing.
Let’s leave conspiracy theories aside and stick to what we can prove. You admit having a “grin on your face” at Moore’s ridiculous defense of his votes, even though you are ambivalent about the underlying issue (and apparently more interested to listening to yourself type than in reading up on the statistics that prove stadium boondoggles are in fact boondoggles). Despite this troll-like “grin” of yours you can’t manage a defense against the refutations of each and every point Moore tries to make in his response, preferring instead to run off on silly tangents and ridiculous twistings of constitutionalism. You claim that you still hold a lot of libertarian views, but as as we can tell you nowadays put a lot more effort into arguing against libertarians than you do into arguing against ever bigger government and its defenders. That, right there, is pretty much textbook trolling, even if you don’t recognize it as such and even if Andy’s speculations about you being a paid government agent are entirely without merit. Clearly, as a former libertarian – taking you at your word here – you must have been traumatized by your time in the movement and interactions with other libertarians. Perhaps you could show us on the doll where they touched you?
Meanwhile, I checked the LNC list again. No one changed their votes, so the final count is still 9-6-1, time having expired, and since it needs a simple majority, the motion passes. That’s not yet been officially reported by the secretary but my count matches a couple of other people’s and I have not seen any corrections made anywhere. Most of the no votes also condemned Moore’s votes and apologia, but felt it should have been left to LPNV with no additional censure from LNC.
Tony,
Lots and lots of people have questions about what happened on 9/11. Don’t conflate those people with the small cult who have decided that 9/11 was an “inside job,” even though they’ve been unable to come up with a crumb of evidence to sustain that belief in 15 years, because because they want it to have been an inside job.
One obvious set of questions pertains to who knew what and when they knew it: Were there elements of the US intelligence/law enforcement community who had the information and failed to put the pieces together in time, with subsequent ass-covering at the expense of the public’s knowledge of events? Were there foreign governments which had information they didn’t share with the US, perhaps out of a cynical self-interest in which the likelihood of increased financial and military aid outweighed the value of the lives at the WTC and the Pentagon?
And so on and so forth. There are LOTS of questions that are entirely reasonable.
“Tony From Long Island
November 1, 2016 at 08:00
Even someone who likes Andy can tell that he is not of sound mind. Paulie told him he didn’t have to do those annoying ‘should read’ posts that he loves. Yet, he still does.”
It was too much of a hassle to do from where I was posting.
Even someone who likes Andy can tell that he is not of sound mind. Paulie told him he didn’t have to do those annoying “should read” posts that he loves. Yet, he still does.
Jill: ” . . . It is now suspected more than half the people in the country still have questions about what happened that day. . . .”
No, Jill, they don’t. A small group of conspiracy theorists do.
Sure, there are small details that are unclear or are classified, but whether it was an “inside job” is just the product of a sick sick mind.
And no, I am not trolling you or anyone else on here. What is the good in having everyone agree with everyone? I’m someone who used to be in the LP but then drifted away – felt it was sorta like a cult – no dissent allowed!
This is getting really annoying. 3rd time on this thread I am telling you, you can now go back and fix your comment since you are signed up at IPR instead of making these extra “should read” comments.
“in large party”
Should read, “in large part…”
That’s 9-6-1 by my count so everyone except the chair has voted. Ken told me that Brett Bitner has changed his mind about voting so Ken’s vote will stand. If any other additional alternates vote their votes will not count. Members who already voted are allowed to change their vote before midnight pacific (3 am east coast time) but if that doesn’t happen the motion will pass.
Football has been losing viewers for some months. I wonder how this will look in 10 to 20 years?
The LNC should vote to censure Moore, in large party because the LNC gave him $10,000 for his campaign.
He’s economically ignorant about the stadium welfare and it doesn’t take a hardcore libertarian to see that. Most “liberal” sports fans and sports writers I know (as well as genuine conservatives) oppose public financing of stadiums on principle. I am not about kicking people out of parties, but there is no way anyone who is even 5% “libertarian” could vote that way.
Maybe welfare for billionaires is more acceptable now since millions of fake conservatives plan on voting for a billionaire welfare guy who used government favors and eminent domain to enrich himself while touting him as some sort of great business man.
-David Demarest
Good point, TLK.
Paulie,
You seem to have forgotten that Adelson will almost certainly ask Las Vegas to do what the Braves got Atlanta’s government to do: Forbid the poor people who live near the stadium and paid for it to charge sports fans a few bucks to park in their yards on game days. After all, it would be a shame if Adelson missed out on getting to charge them outrageous fees to park their vehicles after they’ve bought tickets to his games and before he takes them for $20 to get a hot dog and a beer (probably — it was only $8-10 last time I went to a ball game, but that was a long time ago.
“This bill only gave the Clark County commissioners permission if THEY CHOOSE to increase the sales tax in Clark County. It was an ENABLING bill NOT a tax increase of any sort. […] don’t play on words.”
What a lame excuse. Who’s the one playing on words?
“By choosing to censure me you are in FACT forcing your will upon me.”
Absurd. Moore could’ve chosen to stay in the GOP. Taxpayers cannot choose to avoid paying taxes.
“Where were all of the Libertarians when it came time to testify during the Assembly hearings that were held during the special session? Only two, count them, two people from the libertarian party testified at the Assembly hearings.”
That’s probably because everyone was counting on Moore, as the lone “Libertarian” in the Assembly, to represent them. Which he failed.
“This bill will put thousands of out of work Nevadans back to work during the life of the construction of the stadium.”
Understanding that it’s wrong to take money from Peter to pay Paul is Basic Libertarianism 101. Which he flunked.
“This bill does not effect any Nevadian unless that person chooses to stay in a hotel and then the increase is approx. $1.25 per day.”
Increasing taxes on travelers, who cannot vote, is one of the most insidious ways government is expanding its reach.
What a sad response. Not only should Moore be censured, he should be ejected from the party. The LP would have been better off if he had never joined, instead of having to apologize for him now. The LP should also create an annual “John Moore Award” for a political hack who most artfully uses doubletalk and spin-doctored gibberish to evade libertarian principles and his own personal responsibilities as an official.
Tony, I’m really sick of your disrespect of Andy. As far as: “However that does not change the fact that he is a piece of crap. He’s a conspiracy theorist and 9/11 truther.”
It is now suspected more than half the people in the country still have questions about what happened that day. There are many family members of victims who haven’t had their questions answered. You disrespect the victims and their families by pretending every stupid little thing we’ve been told about that day is true, regardless of how absurd and impossible some of the “facts” are.
I usually don’t bother with you because I also think you’re trolling us, but your disrespect is really getting to me.
Here is another angle to consider this stadium issue. Every level of government in this country has lots of waste and inefficiency in its operation. I’d be willing to bet that there is plenty of waste in the state government in Nevada, as well as in the Clark County level of government, and the city of Las Vegas level of government (assuming that the stadium would be in the city limits of Las Vegas, but if not, whatever city the stadium might be located).
I’d be willing to bet that if you went through the state and local government budgets and asset holdings in Nevada, you could find more than enough fat to trim, to the point where if it were necessary for the government to be involved in financing the construction of a football stadium, you could do it without raising taxes.
Running to the tax payers to squeeze more money out of them every time a politicians or special interest group wants something gives the politicians no incentive to reduce government waste.
Also, how many economic activities are being blocked right now in Nevada? There’s a citizens initiative on the ballot to legalize marijuana, which also calls for taxing and regulating it. If it passes, which polls indicated that it will, it is sure to bring in lots of revenue for the state. So why increase the motel tax to pay for a new stadium when the state could just legalize marijuana and use the tax money they are going to collect from that to build the stadium?
Once again, i don’t think that the government should even been involved in financing stadiums at all, but that’s another issue.
I’ve been reading some more recently. I missed almost all of the comments from after the LP national convention until early October. You’re probably right. My responditis is why I was trying to keep from jumping back into comments here. Obviously failed big time on that score today. Blame it on Caryn Ann, I started by responding to her about the links to the LNC discussions and next thing you know it was off to the merry go round with Tony… my lack of self-control is deplorable.
@Paulie
Tony from Long Island will attack and then backpedal and say it’s all in good fun and no offense was met. He’s been trolling IPR and attacking libertarians since May. He’s a partisan Democrat to boot.
I notice you haven’t posted in awhile but don’t know if you’ve been reading. He’s not worth your time.
“paulie Post author
October 31, 2016 at 13:37
I won’t assume someone is a government troll just because no one knows them. There are way more LP members, voters, and libertarian-leaners than there are LP activists who go to meetings and whatnot.”
That is true, but given the amount of trolling that has happened on IPR, and given that I have been a target of the trolls, not only here on IPR, as I have been attacked by trolls over my political views others places as well, one has got to wonder about this Tony From Long Island character.
I won’t assume someone is a government troll just because no one knows them. There are way more LP members, voters, and libertarian-leaners than there are LP activists who go to meetings and whatnot. It’s not in any way frafetched that some of them would show up here. Nor would I assume someone is NOT a government troll just because people think they know them. They don’t all act in any particular way in an organization, or they would be too easily recognizable.
That being said – like I said I don’t know – if Tony is indeed for making government smaller in a lot of ways, and helping create a multiparty system, what is he doing to achieve those goals? Not for me to say, and I don’t know, but maybe that is a question Tony needs to ask himself.
So Tony is leaving the paid government troll center early today? 🙂
No zingers at you unless the shoe fits. I don’t know if it does or not so not for me to say.
Tony does not like me because I espouse a hardcore libertarian ideology, and because I have questioned official government stories about things like 9/11, Sandy Hook, etc…
I am not the only person here to do either of these things, but Tony probably does not like the fact that I have been more vocal about it than most.
Oooh, that was a nice zinger at me.
Paulie, I respect everyone who posts on here except Andy. I try to make my posts respectful except those in response to Andy. I am actually quite a pleasant person. But then again “no on here knows {me].”
I am leaving work early today. It’s been enjoyable today, believe it or not.
YES: Hayes, Redpath, McKnight, O’Toole, Goldstein, Harlos, Vohra, Starchild
NO: Moellman (ALT), Hewitt, Katz
Express abstention: Bilyeu
All of the government money shoved at stadia are boondoggles. If you can’t even understand that much, I have a hard time believing you are really going to try to cut anything. Do you actually do anything to, you know, push or prod politicians to actually cut anything in real life, or is berating libertarians for being too extreme and cheering when they sell out the sole extent of your political activism nowadays?
I tend to agree he takes some of that stuff too far, but that’s not being a piece of crap nor does it come close to outweighing all his work. And governments have lied to us many times and engaged in conspiracies, including to start just about every war in US history. So, I can’t blame someone for questioning some government stories. I don’t like to get into the endless details about any particular conspiracy theory myself so I don’t talk about it very much anymore. It can be a big time sink and my public policy views are the same regardless of whodunit. But even if Andy is wrong about every single conspiracy theory that does not come even close to making him a piece of crap. A real piece of crap would be someone who claims to want to make things incrementally more libertarian but does nothing except make arguments to defend statism, statists and libertarians selling out. I’m not necessarily saying that’s you since I have no idea what you do after you get off work.
Paulie: ” . . .
I think there is a HUGE amount of waste in federal (and state) spending. The debate is where it is an what to trim.
Stadium boondoggles are an excellent place to start. If you can’t even cut that, you are all talk. . . . ”
I guess you missed the part where I said “The debate is where it is and what to trim.” And I never really said whether I was for or against stadiums (not all of which are ‘boondoggles’).
I applaud Andy on his activism. However that does not change the fact that he is a piece of crap. He’s a conspiracy theorist and 9/11 truther. He thinks mass shootings are fake. His tin-hat bullshit outweighs any good work he has done on the part of democracy.
I’ve known Andy well for 12 years and worked with him all over the country on many campaigns. Most recently in Oklahoma where among many other things he got over 500 ballot access signatures in one day, and where we got run off even from obviously public places like public street festivals and parks. I’ve seen him work for hours in the boiling sun and freezing cold and even sleep in his car to get libertarian candidates and issues, and other alt party and independent candidates, on the ballot. He prints and distributes libertarian literature and gathers LP contacts at his own expense and takes extra time to consistently insure some of the best validity in the petition business. So on what basis is he a “piece of garbage” to you? To the extent we have anything more than a two party system Andy has more than a little to do with it.
I agree. Hopefully that will include Johnson and Stein finding a way to debate each other.
Stadium boondoggles are an excellent place to start. If you can’t even cut that, you are all talk.
Looking more and more like it will be Fuehrer von Drumpf but we shall see.
An oft told canard. Who exactly opposes incremental steps to achieve smaller government? Not Andy or me or virtually anyone that you falsely label purists. Now, big expansions of government such as stadium boondoggles, that’s a different question though.
You’re working at cross-purposes with yourself, then. Radical libertarians are often disproportionately represented among those who do the heavy lifting to make us as influential as we are. Get rid of us and the party may have trouble getting on the ballot in a lot of states, much less anything else.
Andy. No one knows who I am because I never once attended an LP meeting.
I could show you my old issues of LP news, but I don’t know how to post images in my posts. I was either a dues-paying member of the LP or interested in it from 1992 (age 18) until around 2010.
Nor do I have to justify myself you a conspiracy theorist like you.
You also fail to consider that I was incarcerated for quite a while. Unless you wanted to enjoy the pleasantness of a NY prison visiting room . . .
I am quite close acquaintances with a gentleman who ran for New York statewide office (and a NY federal office). I will not, out of respect for him, disclose his identity. He is, however, up in years.
Believe whatever you like. However you seem to believe crazy bull shit conspiracies like a paranoid and delusional imbecile. Maybe it’s a badge of honor for the sane that you constantly question me.
Tony From Long Island said: “I do have interest in what goes on in the LP because the LP does hold a place in my heart. For a large part of my adult life I was gung-ho. I read Harry Browne. I loved Ron Paul. I recruited votes for our POTUS candidates. I told friends that Taxation is theft (a lie) etc. However, I started to feel like the purists made the LP a cult rather than a political party. I disagreed that it had to be all or nothing. Incremental steps to achieve smaller government is more realistic.”
If you were really such a gung ho Libertarian activist at one time, there must be a verifiable record of this that we can check to see if you are telling the truth. So where is this record?
Funny how nobody here knows who you are. We’ve had people from New York post here, and none of them said that they know you.
Maybe you are telling the truth, but I have to wonder if you are full of shit.
I am talking about a volunteer petition, like perhaps one of those online petitions, before anyone accuses me of trying to make any money off of this.
I would like to see a recall petition against John Moore (Nevada does have the recall process), but from what I have heard, Moore is not likely to be re-elected anyway, and even if he is, the recall petition process is extremely difficult to the point of being unreasonable, which is why recalls rarely qualify for the ballot in Nevada.
ANDREW THE GREAT: ” . . . . If you don’t like libertarians, why do you come here and spend so much time arguing with libertarians? Are you an advocate for some other minor party or independent candidate, or do you just like to argue? . . . . You seem to have a lot of interest in what goes on in the Libertarian Party for a guy who is not a libertarian. . . . ”
I argue with YOU because you are a piece of garbage. With others, I debate quite pleasantly.
I do have interest in what goes on in the LP because the LP does hold a place in my heart. For a large part of my adult life I was gung-ho. I read Harry Browne. I loved Ron Paul. I recruited votes for our POTUS candidates. I told friends that Taxation is theft (a lie) etc. However, I started to feel like the purists made the LP a cult rather than a political party. I disagreed that it had to be all or nothing. Incremental steps to achieve smaller government is more realistic.
While I have drifted (but still agree with parts of the LP platform) I believe that there should be a large and vibrant Libertarian Party. I just personally think that it should shed itself of the purists like you.
There should be several large and influential parties in our democracy. I dislike the two party system. I get angry when “third party” candidates are left out of the presidential (and other) debates. Any candidate on enough ballots to receive 270 should be in at least the first debate.
I think there is a HUGE amount of waste in federal (and state) spending. The debate is where it is an what to trim.
I think that any “federal crime” that is already a crime in all 50 states should be repealed.
I think that immigration should be made much much easier.
I think that our military should be cut in at least half and that it should only be used for defense. I think that we should be part of UN missions (as a member).
I think that drug use should be treated as a medical situation – not criminal. However, I can say from experience that our prisons are NOT filled with non-violent drug offenders.
I could go on. Look, there are things we agree on, I just don’t take it to the same degree as you do. You see most things as black and white. I don’t.
I am still voting for Gov. Johnson but, like it or not, Mrs. Clinton will be our next president.
How about a petition among LP members to kick John Moore out of the Libertarian Party, or to at least let him know that he is no longer welcome in the Libertarian Party?
Again, why don’t you just re-edit your own comments? You can do that now since I signed you up.
https://www.facebook.com/events/1808163299451821/
It must be nice to be a billionaire like Sheldon Adelson. You can get the public, including those who don’t ever use your stadium, to pay for it. Then you can turn around and charge those who do want to go to events at your stadium again and keep a nice chunk of that money. After they are at your event which they are not allowed to bring their own food and drinks to you can get a nice fat profit from the high rates they pay for those items at your stadium. You also make a nice big fat profit from the merchandising. Then you can rake in more money from the broadcast fees.
With all that money laying around, you need more protection. But why pay for it when you can charge taxpayers instead? Hence more money for the killer cops of Metro PD. After all that you have a huge pile of cash. You need something to spend it on. How about some warmongering politicians to line the pockets of other crony corporatists in the weapons manufacturing businesses? But, you still have too much money left laying around so why not buy a newspaper such as the LV Review-Journal so it can now advocate against marijuana legalization. That will keep more people in jails and prisons and help fund lots of prison industries that can pay their workers less than the Chinese without the costs of shipping, and not worry about strikes, unionization or workers quitting their jobs for better jobs elsewhere.
Now, I know you are thinking this all sounds great, how can it get any better than this? Well, the final cherry on top is to have a Libertarian Party legislator be the deciding vote to shovel another 750 mill in your big pile of cash, in addition to the “enabling act” for the Metro cops and however much that will end up costing. But, since you didn’t get this rich by paying for anything yourself, why use your money to bribe the schmo like the run of the mill shmucks who normally buy politicians do, when you can get the Libertarian Party and its activists to fund all or virtually all of that candidate’s election budget?
And then as if that was not good enough, you can have guys like Tony who are presumably not getting paid anything spending their own time on here to defend your actions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IJCFc_qkHw
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/getoboys/damnitfeelsgoodtobeagangsta.html
“Tony From Long Island
October 31, 2016 at 11:50
So, my dear Andrew, we should now allow taxation except for things that EVERY SINGLE PERSON agrees upon? Give me a break. This is a SOCIETY. We are all a part of a whole. There are 350 million people living together. There will be things that some disapprove of and things that some or most approve of.”
If we had an actual libertarian society, yes, people would only pay for things for which they voluntarily agree to pay.
Even in our present society, the public should only pay for that which is specifically authorized by the Constitution.
“This is the fallacy of libertarianism ”
If you don’t like libertarians, why do you come here and spend so much time arguing with libertarians? Are you an advocate for some other minor party or independent candidate, or do you just like to argue?
You seem to have a lot of interest in what goes on in the Libertarian Party for a guy who is not a libertarian.
So, my dear Andrew, we should now allow taxation except for things that EVERY SINGLE PERSON agrees upon? Give me a break. This is a SOCIETY. We are all a part of a whole. There are 350 million people living together. There will be things that some disapprove of and things that some or most approve of.
This is the fallacy of libertarianism – that the only spending that can be approved is this tiny small window. Hey . . I don’t like war. I think military should be UNNECESSARY. But that’s just my utopia talking.
Live within the system. Work to change it, but don’t let if affect your every waking moment.
I like many things government does, but not ALL. Oh well. That’s life. Sometimes you have to actually live in the real world. It’s really the constant anger and complaining and All or nothingness of L’s that just turned me off. That, and just a different way of seeing things.
Enough for this debate. It’s been fun.
:something that it open”
Should read, “something that is open…”
Large portion =/= everyone, therefore not general. And since a large portion of the public enjoys them for several different functions, why don’t they find a way put their money together with their billionaire owners and come up with a way to pay for them that does not involve extorting money from those who don’t? You know, like ticket and merchandise sales, or those jacked up drinks and hot dogs you buy at the stadium… why exactly does #14 on the Forbes 500 list need money from people who live in motels when he has thousands of people lining up to buy tickets, expensive sodas and pretzels and whatnot? I mean come on… that’s just so far from either constitutionalist, libertarian or even liberal, I’m surprised you would make such a ridiculous argument.
Lots of people enjoy all kinds of things. Reality TV for example. Do we need a tax to create more reality TV shows and pay their “stars”?
Tony From Long Island
October 31, 2016 at 11:33
Andy the Genius: ‘. . . There is also a large portion of the public that does not care about stadiums, or who like them, but do not believe that the tax payers should be forced to pay for them. . . . ‘
Really? I didn’t realize that. . . . wow Mr. Obvious. Every single government expenditure will have people who are for and against it . . That’s what this fun debate is for.”
This is exactly why the general public should not be forced to pay for stadiums. Providing stadiums is not a general function of government, like say a court house, or a road, and it is not even something that it open to general use by the public, like say a library.
So this is a bad thing even if one does not get into the anarchist “taxation is theft” arguments.
Andy the Genius: ” . . . There is also a large portion of the public that does not care about stadiums, or who like them, but do not believe that the tax payers should be forced to pay for them. . . . ”
Really? I didn’t realize that. . . . wow Mr. Obvious. Every single government expenditure will have people who are for and against it . . That’s what this fun debate is for.
Meanwhile, Katz has voted no.
So far, the votes I have been able to find on the LNC motion to censure are:
YES: Hayes, Redpath, McKnight, O’Toole, Goldstein, Harlos, Vohra,
NO: Moellman (ALT), Hewitt, Katz
Am I missing any?
There is also a large portion of the public that does not care about stadiums, or who like them, but do not believe that the tax payers should be forced to pay for them.
I live in New York. We know all about stadiums being built. I am also a New York Islanders fan. My team was forced to move to a shit hole in Brooklyn because the government in Nassau County declined to work on some re-zoning for a new arena that was going to be fully paid for by the team. Instead, they went for something partly publicly funded and the vote failed in a close vote. In the end, a new arena still got built, but the team still moved . . . grrr
In the last 10 years we have had three stadiums built in the metro area – Yankee, Chase and Giants (Jets). Since a large portion of the general public enjoys them for several different functions, I am ok with their existence and partial public funding. Could it have gone differently? Sure.
Again, why are you making clearly absurd arguments about the federal constitution rather than studying up on what a huge ripoff stadium boondoggles have repeatedly proven to be?
It’s really not complicated; freedom of speech and of the press, as well as the right to keep and bear arms, are general principles that evolve with new technology, but the principle remains the same. Limiting government taxation to only specific uses, one of which is general welfare that benefits everyone rather than specific welfare that benefits only some people at the expense of others such as stadium boondoggles as an example of the latter, is also a general principle that still applies.
And finally, your 3/5 of a human being red herring is also off base, since it was the slave states that wanted slaves counted as a whole human being (for the purpose of the census, to give those states more votes so they could preserve and expand slavery) and the free states that wanted slaves to count as 0/5 of a human being. And bringing this silly tangent back at least somewhat closer to the subject at hand, what percentage of a human being does the government consider someone if it permits them to keep, for example, 3/5 of what they earn after extorting taxes from them?
Yes, and general welfare means general – as in everyone – as opposed to specific, such as the well connected power players behind the stadium deal for example. If you are still ambivalent about that, you should be reading the reason.con link and links therein as opposed to continue to argue about misinterpretations of a document which is not even the applicable one here, and wholly irrelevant as to whether the national LP should censure a lawmaker who acted in opposition to fundamental libertarian principles and has already been censured by his state LP for it, after the national LP gave him money.
That’s absurd. The debates of the time made clear that references to arms meant parity between the people and the government, so that the unorganized militia would have the same kinds of weapons as the military would have. That principle doesn’t change because technology evolves. It says arms, not “arms circa 1789.” If you are going to make these kind of piss poor arguments you should re-read those documents again since you clearly did not understand them.
More fundamentally, you should also learn the difference between libertarianism and constitutionalism, since they are not one and the same.
BTW, if you are ambivalent about the stadium boondoggle and recognize the growing police state why does it put a grin on your face to read blatantly ridiculous arguments made to justify them? You should be reading the links about why the stadium ripoff is in fact a total ripoff instead, and why it does not provide the supposed benefits to the community that its proponents falsely claim.
So, they didn’t have the freedom so SPEAK? Only use printing presses?
i never said that I thought that black people were 3/5 of a human.
The people who wrote the Constitution meant weapons, not muskets specifically.
Your claim that the 2nd amendment only applies to muskets is absurd. That would be like saying that the 1st amendment right to freedom of speech only applies to 1700’s era printing presses.
But then again . . . you admittedly think that black people are 3/5 of a human. 🙁
Andy! Great! You admit that the constitution limits us to muskets! Excellent!
So Tony admits that he thinks that the Constitution means what he says that it means, rather than what the people who wrote it meant. Why am I not surprised? LOL!
Pauley Perrette: ” . . . . For further confirmation see the debates surrounding the adoption of the federal constitution, some of which are still available for you to read if you have a big constitution fetish. . . . ”
Oh trust me, I don’t have a constitution fetish. I love the Federalist Papers – have read them several times. However, I personally feel that they have no influence on the powers of the Constitution. I go by the words of the document itself – not essays written after its signing. Also, I don’t go by what some wanted it to mean. I prefer what the words actually mean.
If you choose to follow only what the words meant at the time of its passage, the only legal firearm would be muskets. Wouldn’t that be great? I think so! Can’t have it both ways.
Since some people don’t scroll up to actually read the post:
http://reason.com/blog/2016/10/17/raiders-sheldon-adelson-stadium-vegas
If general welfare was as non-specific as you think based on modern uses of the term, there would be no need to list the other specifics. That alone should be enough to tell you are completely off track regarding “general welfare” and the rest of your historically and logically false constitutionalist argument. For further confirmation see the debates surrounding the adoption of the federal constitution, some of which are still available for you to read if you have a big constitution fetish.
There is a difference between General Welfare and SPECIFIC WELFARE. The football stadium is SPECIFIC WELFARE, not General Welfare.
Also, as I have shown in other threads by posting quotes from James Madison, you are twisting the “General Welfare” clause to include things that it was never meant to include.
Nothing in my posts should be construed as my approval of a tax to fund a football stadium – only that government has the power to do so.
I am ambivalent on the issue as I have previously posted.
You are correct Mr. PAULIE. I have not read the Nevada Constitution, nor do I have the desire to look it up right now. I feel pretty confident that the wording is similar to the federal constitution, as most state constitutions are.
Paul McCartney: “but if it’s like the federal constitution it “allows” the government to pass specific kinds of taxes for specific, enumerated purposes – not just for whatever the fuck politicians felt like passing. . . . ”
ARTICLE I – SECTION 8 – “…..The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; . . . ”
Seems pretty wonderfully vague to me. Nothing specific about it.
Presumably you mean the Nevada state constitution, since the federal constitution has nothing whatsoever to do with this. I haven’t studied the Nevada constitution, but if it’s like the federal constitution it “allows” the government to pass specific kinds of taxes for specific, enumerated purposes – not just for whatever the fuck politicians felt like passing.
Censure by their political party is part of that same process as well.
And once again, two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner….but then you used to be a libertarian so you already knew that.
This guy claims he conducted a poll, and that most of the voters in his district want the stadium.
My response to this is that if most of the voters in his district want the stadium that’s great, THESE PEOPLE SHOULD OPEN UP THEIR WALLETS AND PAY FOR IT.
I think this is a bogus argument for two reasons:
1) How scientific was this poll? I have talked to people who work at polling companies and they admitted to me that polls can be, and often are, easily rigged to come out however those conducting the poll want them to come out.
2) Even if a majority of the people want the stadium, this does not give them the right to extort money out of other people to pay for it. If we went back in time to when there was chattel slavery in this country, I’d bet that you could have taken polls that said that a majority of people in some district were in favor of chattel slavery, but this would not mean that chattel slavery was morally justified. Tyranny of the majority is not the same thing as individual liberty.
Why yes. You got a problem with that? 🙂
Bullshit.
Yeah, so? It’s not a contract I signed to begin with, so no consent.
Also incorrect. It recognizes that right, which exists with or without it.
My right to disagree does not mean I consent to taxation. And I sure as fuck don’t consent to taxation for private gains by scumbags like Adelson. You know Adelson… the one who gives a lot of money to warmongering Republicans, opposing ending marijuana prohibition and other such worthy causes. But hey, it’s only 1.25 a day. How’s about if me and my friend here have a vote to take 500 dollars out of your pocket? It’s only 1.25 a day, on an annualized basis, and we’ll hardly ever choose anyone who votes in our jurisdiction to take that money from. Plus I promise, we’ll do good things with it. You’ll see. It will be completely different from all the other times we took money from people while discreetly revealing our concealed pistols. Plus we’ll even pass a constitution and let you have a vote to amend it and everything! You, me and my robbery accomplice all get to vote. We may even pass out free candy to all the kids in the neighborhood and let them vote too!
Andy – The Constitution allows government to TAX. The purposes of those taxes are left to the legislators. So, yes, there is permission for a tax to pay for a football stadium.
Now, whether or not that is a wise use of the People’s money is an entirely different question. Obviously you are against it, as many others are. Vote those who voted for it out of office, but don’t claim that there is no legal basis to enact such a tax because you would be wrong.
There is nothing in the Constitution that says that people have to pay taxes to pay for football stadiums.
You can correct your own comments now since I signed you up. Log in and look for the little edit link under each comment you posted.
Once again, bullshit. Lots of people have little money and no public assistance for a wide variety of reasons. I have personally had many, many times when I had to choose between a motel and no motel. Sometimes no motel means sleeping in the back of someone’s car or van or overcrowded old RV, sometimes it means sleeping in a tent at someone else’s campsite. Sometimes it means staying with relatives who don’t really want me here. Sometimes it means sitting up all night at a Denny’s or a bus stop. Sometimes it means sleeping by the side of the road. For some people it may mean sleeping in a boiler room with other people who steal belongings and attack people. Personally that’s one that I don’t do.
For some people their choice is always to get a motel, but that may mean not eating for a day or several that week. It may mean losing a job because they could not scrounge up gas money or bus fare that day in time to get to work on time. It may mean no toys for their kids. It may mean not having bail money to get out of jail. And so on.
Other times it may be less dramatic. Maybe they’ll get one less snack from the grocery store or one less sandwich from the local family owned restaurant. But enough of those decisions add up and that small business goes under. And lots of other small businesses too.
And of course that whole “it’s only 1.25 a day” line of bullshit is how big government gets even bigger. Most taxes are only a tiny amount per each person, but there’s lots of taxes and it adds up. Just that buck twenty five is 500 a year, which is real money to a lot of people. And when you have dozens of taxes that are 1.25 each, guess what… that adds up to a whole lot of government redistribution of wealth. If you think that’s a formula for making people better off, you should try living in a few different countries and compare.
Should read, “most of whom….”
Saying there is consent with the tax for the stadium is absurd since it is a tax on people who stay in motels, most of him do not vote in this jurisdiction.
I travel frequently, and i have been to Las Vegas a bunch of times, sometimes for work, sometimes for pleasure, and sometimes I was just passing through. One of the things I like about Las Vegas is that the motels there are cheaper than a lot of other places, like California, where the motel prices are high for the most part. It would be very disappointing to me to see the motel prices go up in Nevada because of this stupid tax increase, and what adds insult to injury with this is that this tax increase is going to line the pockets of billionaires and millionaires. This tax increase will make me less inclined to want to go to Las Vegas, and if I do go it will cause me to spend less money on other things while I am there.
” . . . Hey, asshole: I ain’t Paulie Shore. Just Paulie would be fine, thanks. . . ”
You were OK with Paulie Walnuts, but Paulie Shore is where you draw the line!!????!!???!!!!!!! Calm down, my anarchist friend. Levity is a good thing Feel free to refer to me a Tony The Tiger or Tony Montana.
” . . . The Constitution ALLOWS the government to collect taxes. Therefore, there is consent.
I didn’t sign the constitution so no, there is not. . . . .”
As a citizen, you (and I) are governed by the Constitution, which allows for taxation. Citizenship confers the consent to be taxed. There are mechanisms to amend the Constitution. Raise your obviously angry voice for that. That same Constitution gives you the right to do so.
This is yet another example of why there needs to be a mechanism to kick people out of the Libertarian Party.
John Moore is NOT a libertarian. Kick this clown out of the Libertarian Party.
Hey, asshole: I ain’t Paulie Shore. Just Paulie would be fine, thanks.
But yet here you are, defending a “Libertarian” legislator voting to enable the county commissioners to shake down the citizens for yet more money to fund the police state getting even bigger. Not smart.
Actually a lot longer than that. But not nearly enough. We are just getting started.
Other people’s money, apparently. Do you take that attitude in your personal life as well (shit costs money so I’ll just take it from someone else by force) or do you have to have a vote first?
I didn’t sign the constitution so no, there is not.
Don’t like getting mugged by Bloods? Move to Crip turf or vote for new representatives for your crew on the mob commission.
Paulie Shore: ” . . . .And yes, the heavily militarized Metro cops act exactly like an occupying army, violent street gang or mob protection racket. . . . ”
OK, we agree on something. I can’t speak of the Vegas cops since I’ve never been to Vegas – and if I had – what happens there STAYS there!! However, there has been a conscious militarizing of police since 9/11 and it just makes it seem as though we live in a police state.
Paulie Walnuts: ” . . . Taxation is part-time slavery since part of the wages for work is confiscated without consent. . . . . ”
zzzz yawn. This mantra has been droned on for 40 years now. Shit costs money. The Constitution ALLOWS the government to collect taxes. Therefore, there is consent. Don’t like it? Move or keep electing new representatives.
Slavery is being forced to work without pay. Taxation is part-time slavery since part of the wages for work is confiscated without consent. And it sucks even worse when it’s used to line a crony corporatist’s pockets at the expense of other business people and everyone else, or to help “enable” other politicians to coerce even more money out of the already suffering citizens to further fund an occupying army against them. And yes, the heavily militarized Metro cops act exactly like an occupying army, violent street gang or mob protection racket. They’re so bad that a well known Vegas area conservatarian told me that he usually supports the police but even he had to admit that Metro cops are dangerous and dirty.
I am someone who was on public assistance for two years – thankfully not homeless. I deal wish several people who are currently on public assistance and some who are homeless.
If you have no income and only 200 bux, you have several options for shelter. Spending your last 200 bux on a hotel is your own choice – and a poor one at that.
Bullshit. There are plenty of people who face the decision between paying for a motel and being homeless that night or that week and don’t get public assistance. Been in that situation many times myself.
Another bad argument. Money is taken out of the economy to line Adelson’s pockets. The money that tourists, people in Nevada temporarily for work and those who live in motels due to economic circumstances pay in this tax would otherwise be spent, largely in Nevada, in all sorts of other businesses. That would in turn create many jobs (or keep them from being lost). It’s not hypocritical to oppose stadium boondoggles and then patronize or work at the businesses created as a result, other potential opportunities for employment or goods and services having been destroyed by the tax. I don’t lose my right to object to wasteful government spending because I use the so-called services that result from it; other services aren’t available because government put its thumb on the scale.
On the other hand, it is quite hypocritical to claim to be a libertarian, get money from Libertarian donors based on that claim, and then offer up these kinds of votes and arguments. If you check the finance reports, all or virtually all of Mr. Moore’s campaign donations came from Libertarian donors this year.
“Needless to say, I read his response with a grin.”
Yes, having “Libertarian” representatives vote to take other people’s money and give it to warmongering billionaires like Adelson is really awesome. These ridiculous arguments in favor of these votes, which are easily refuted by Libertarianism 101 and Economics 101, are really something that should put a smile on your face. Do you like to watch people get mugged, too?
” . . . . . If all you have is $200 and the hotel is $215 a week thanks to the tax, you get to sleep outside . . . . ”
If that is the case you either live in Vegas and receive public assistance and shelter so paying for a hotel is not one of your top priorities. or
you shouldn’t be taking a vacation to Vegas. Not much to enjoy on your budget.
That depends on the price of the hotel, and change happens at the margin. If all you have is $200 and the hotel is $215 a week thanks to the tax, you get to sleep outside or in a boiler room with other people, neither of which is safe. And why should, for example, Nevadans who have to travel between the Vegas and Reno areas for business be penalized? Moore should be able to relate, since presumably he does not commute from Vegas to Carson City every single day that the legislature is in session. For that matter, why is it any more OK to shake down people who are not Nevada residents to further line Adelson’s deep pockets?
That’s a line of bullshit as well. Please see Anthony Fisher’s article at reason.com and links contained therein which I included for reference in the body of the post above.
If you think this is a “good line” you have fundamentally misunderstood the non-initiation of force principle. NAP does not mean “don’t impose your will on legislators when they vote away everyone’s money which is taken under the threat of coercion.” True freedom doesn’t mean that the politicians should be truly free to give tax money to billionaires. You do actually know better than this, right? You claim you were a libertarian at one time.
Here are my favorite lines from his response:
” . . . . .By choosing to censure me you are in FACT forcing your will upon me and everyone that does not agree with you. How is that true freedom or Liberty? NAP? . . . ”
” . . . .Where were all of the Libertarians when it came time to testify during the Assembly hearings that were held during the special session? . . . . Even the Nevada state party chairman who was present chose not to testify before the Assembly . . . ”
” . . . . This bill will put thousands of out of work Nevadans back to work during the life of the construction of the stadium and the convention center expansion, 3-5 years. . . . ”
” . . . . .This bill does not effect any Nevadian unless that person chooses to stay in a hotel and then the increase is approx. $1.25 per day. . . . ”
” . . . . My response to those that find my deciding vote so “reprehensible” is this, Please do not attend any NFL game, UNLV game, concert or any other event that will be held at the stadium. Also do not patronize any business that may be built in and around the stadium as a result of the stadium being built. Do not attend any conventions that will be held at the convention center as a result of the expansion. Do not take any job that may be offered as a result of the stadium or convention center expansion because then you would be receiving a direct benefit of the very thing that you find so “reprehensible” and that would make you a true hypocrite. “Practice what you preach” You don’t get to have it both ways. . . . . ”
Needless to say, I read his response with a grin. I look forward to the Harry Browne quoting, blinders-wearing, incapable of seeing things differently responses.
sounds more like a cop out to me. hiding behind some BS polling he did is not a valid excuse in my opinion. One of the underlining sentiments behind the “taxation is theft” idea is that taxes are coercive on the individual so who cares if a majority of those polled were in favor of the tax? as long as one individual was against it, its theft. We are individuals and as libertarians in govt positions, i think the duty is to shift govt in the direction we seek in our bylaws and statement of principles. I know this is a stretch of an analogy but would he hide behind that lame excuse if he voted in favor of slavery as long as the majority of people polled were in favor?
I generally use http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/ rather than the google groups interface. I can look at it in thread, subject, date and author sort. EG http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/2016/006801.html and so on. Links to additional messages in the thread are at the bottom of the page. Other IPR editors are welcome to add info to the articles, especially votes that I may have missed among all the discussion messages. I’ll add the google groups links though since you made them handy.
to Paulie, here are the google links to the full discussions:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lncvotes/QlFM6diPz8U/hAo-BdJmAwAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lncvotes/gSim7axLmm8/6hhEHTYJAwAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lncvotes/csKqVKphsL0/4aTnJCv2BQAJ
Paulie I’m not at my computer but you should put the Google groups links to the two email threads where extensive responses to Ken and Moore have been made.