Does the Establishment Plant Operatives in Third Parties?

Warren Redlich is the owner of Independent Political Report.

I’m writing this to see if we can have a conversation in the comments about something that has been bugging me. Yes I know this is not a typical post for IPR and some will be annoyed, but I don’t do this often.

I have long had the feeling that the political establishment, at local, state and federal levels, interferes with third parties. Sometimes they’re open and obvious about it, but I’m more concerned about when it’s done “undercover.”

The concept has been mentioned on IPR before.

Republican and Democratic insiders (and/or the CIA or other government agencies) may be planting operatives or informants inside third parties for various reasons. They could plant someone and have them make outrageous statement to make the third party look crazy to the media and mainstream voters. Think about James Weeks stripping at the Libertarian national convention as a possible example.

A fairly small number of such plants could easily affect the nomination process, tilting the field in favor of a candidate less threatening to the establishment, or more likely to embarrass the third party.

The question I pose for commenters is this: Is it possible to distinguish such plants? What signals should we watch for? Is there anything a third party can do about this?

128 thoughts on “Does the Establishment Plant Operatives in Third Parties?

  1. Kevin S Bjornson

    I doubt the major parties would pay someone to do this, which would require many hours and a long-term commitment. Particularly when there are already plenty of crazies in the LP and some others.

  2. Andy

    I have been saying this for years, which is, of course they do. This already came out in FOIA requests that were done in the Libertarian Party back in the 1980’s and/or early 1990’s.

    I know that one such FIOA request was done by 1978 LP candidate for Governor of California, and 1980 candidate for President, Ed Clark. It came out in the report that there was a government plant at the first LP meeting in California, which I believe was in 1972. The name was of course redacted. Ed Clark said that he knew everyone at that meeting, and that all of them remained active in the party for years after this. which means that whoever this was, acted as a long term plant in the party.

    I heard that an LP member from Texas did a FOIA request in the 1980’s or early 1990’s and found that there was a government plant at every LNC meeting that he attended when he was on the LNC. Once again, the name was redacted.

    I also heard from an LP member of Kentucky that somebody in their state party did a FOIA request back in the 1990’s, and they found that there was a government plant in their state party, but of course, once again, the name was redacted.

    I’d be willing to bet money that a lot of the weird stuff that has gone on in the LP, including right here at IPR with a lot of the troll posts, and related stuff (which includes death threats and other things only a few people here know about), is coming from government trolls.

    It would not surprise me at all of the government has at least a few plants in every state party, the more active county parties, the LNC, and the more active campaigns (like the presidential campaigns).

    It should be blatantly obvious that the last three LP presidential tickets have been hijackers from the establishment.

    The Libertarian Party and movement is likely infiltrated with plants, as is every other anti-establishment party and movement. Heck, even in the big parties, they spy on each other and get dirt on people to use for blackmail.

    Politics is a dirty game played by dirty people.

  3. Starchild

    Warren – I’m pretty sure it has happened and probably does happen. The fact that the Feds have unconstitutionally spied on and placed informants inside lots of other organizations, including the civil rights movement and the peace movement, not to mention the Black Panther Party, suggests that they would not leave alternative political parties alone. Historically they’ve been willing to use all kinds of despicable methods, and given other current actions – the FBI instigating terrorist plots and then persecuting the hapless and usually otherwise mostly harmless individuals whom they coax into participating in their phony schemes, the NSA’s widespread and illegal spying on our emails, phone calls, and so on – I see little reason to think they’ve reformed.

    California Libertarian Party chair Ted Brown, a longtime Libertarian activist, has noted that according to one published revelation, the government had an informant in the room at the founding of the California LP, which he found unnerving because he said he’d known everyone who was present. I don’t recall all the details of how this disclosure came to light, but anyone curious could probably contact him about it and get the story.

    I don’t think there’s much to be done about government informants, however. While it’s good to be aware of their likely existence, a climate of suspicion in our organizations will likely do more harm than good, and I think this is in fact part of the authorities’ goal – to sow mistrust, dissension, and infighting in communities that they see as threatening to their agenda of maintaining power and control.

    For the record, I’d be amazed if James Weeks were an undercover government operative however. What he did does not seem like the usual modus operendi, and makes more sense to me as a prank attempting to ruffle the feathers of those in the party he sees as too uptight or conservative. Indeed, I think the jury remains out on whether it may have actually had a positive impact, in making the party seem a less inviting place to those on the right who really aren’t in synch with libertarian values. The possibility of a major influx of such individuals occurring at some point poses a standing threat to the Libertarian Party remaining sustainably libertarian that I believe is far more existential than anything we have to fear from informants and spies.

  4. Andy

    “Kevin S Bjornson

    April 23, 2017 at 21:09

    I doubt the major parties would pay someone to do this, which would require many hours and a long-term commitment. Particularly when there are already plenty of crazies in the LP and some others.”

    I bet they have long term plants and short term plants.

    The government also spies on the Libertarian Party and movement, as well as on other alternative parties/movements.

    It has come out that the government spied on and infiltrated the TEA Party and Occupy Wallstreet. They have also infiltrated peace groups and militia groups.

    It came out a few years ago that the government was spying on Anti-War.com. I bet they spy on a bunch of anti-establishment websites, including IPR. The US government and a bunch of other governments also pay people to troll online. They post under fake names and IP anonymizers and spread government propaganda. They also attack and slander effective activists and try to create disharmony in online discussion forums.

  5. wredlich Post author

    Thanks Andy. I wonder if public records requests would be more effective in Florida. We have strong laws in our favor here. What would we ask for and from which agencies?

  6. Andy

    Starchild said: “California Libertarian Party chair Ted Brown, a longtime Libertarian activist, has noted that according to one published revelation, the government had an informant in the room at the founding of the California LP, which he found unnerving because he said he’d known everyone who was present. I don’t recall all the details of how this disclosure came to light, but anyone curious could probably contact him about it and get the story.”

    This comes from the Ed Clark story I posted about above.

  7. Andy

    “wredlich Post author

    April 23, 2017 at 21:33

    Thanks Andy. I wonder if public records requests would be more effective in Florida. We have strong laws in our favor here. What would we ask for and from which agencies?”

    I would start by doing a FOIA on yourself with the FBI. You may want to also FOIA yourself with other federal agencies, like DHS, the NSA, the CIA, etc…

    Government agencies in Florida you may want to do this with are your city, county, and state police.

    It came out in the early 2000’s after the ACLU did a FOIA request and lawsuit (they had to sue to get them to release the files) against the Denver Police Department, that the Denver police were spying on a bunch of political groups, including the Libertarian Party.

    The Department of Homeland Security got caught spying on libertarians and environmental activist groups in Pennsylvania a few years ago.

    The Department of Homeland Security in Arkansas admitted a few years ago that they spy on Americans who hold “anti-government” points of view.

    I’m not sure if you can FOIA a living person without their consent, but you can FOIA a dead person. We ought to FOIA a bunch of deceased Libertarians.

  8. Bondurant

    These can be difficult actions to prove but I believe it’s a distinct possibility and I do believe there was a soft attempt by the GOP to influence my local party.

  9. Anthony Dlugos

    “What he did…makes more sense to me as a prank attempting to ruffle the feathers of those in the party he sees as too uptight or conservative.”

    As the author alludes to, this makes it worse, not better.

    I’d actually prefer finding out he was a government plant.

    On a practical level, the Libertarian Party is essentially arguing for what would be the largest managed bankruptcy in human history and we have party members who want to “ruffle the feathers” of people who dare to suggest we should take that task seriously.

    So, in other words, sadly, no I don’t think the establishment has to worry about planting operatives.

  10. Richard Winger

    For FOIA, someone could start with David Nolan, although maybe it’s been obtained already.

  11. George Phillies

    Andy, for California there was a FOIA, or so I am told, that returned with names blanked out, showing that you are right. Apparently there was no further effort to deduce from internal clues who the person was.

    I am aware of one New England party that for a while had John Birch Society infiltration. However, by report that person was very vigorous at doing work; she he it just spoke up on occasion for JBS positions that are in our platform but are not usually seen as high-priority issues.

    In my observation, Republicans get really uncomfortable with our abortion position.

  12. D. Frank Robinson

    When we convened the founding convention in Denver David F Nolan and I agreed that J. Edgar Hoover likely had one or two informants planted at the convention. We would proceed and they could report what ever slant they wanted. The tapes we made at the 1972 and 1974 conventions we did in part to have evidence if we should need to produce it in court one day.

    Today, open discussions in social media on strategy and tactics should always emphasize the non-aggression principle even when the philosophical issues are radical. Real Libertarians will never advocate the violent overthrow of the government. Many of us believe the system will collapse of its own weight as the Soviet Union did. Regardless, anyone advocating violence among Libertarians should be viewed as a likely plant.

    On the subject of manipulation of the LP nominees, I think the solution is to trust the judgment of a wider number of the members than just several hundred delegates. The planting of hundreds of ringers in the various state parties is not impossible, but less plausible than packing a hundred ringers in the national convention. So I have proposed expanding the balloting on the presidential nominees to include members voting at meetings in the states simultaneously with national delegates for the candidates in 2020.

    One day a whistle blower may surface from within the Deep State confirming some of our suspicions, but we must proceed by judging tactical and strategic ideas on their merits and consistency with the NAP and the Statement of Principles rather than trying to read nefarious motives into people.

  13. Andy

    Andy said: ” Real Libertarians will never advocate the violent overthrow of the government.”

    I disagree. Libertarianism is not about being a pacifist. The government initiates coercive acts of violence, theft, and destruction of property against “we the people” on a daily basis. Armed resistance against this is morally justified.

    I’m not saying that armed revolution is a sound strategy to advocate at this juncture, because there are not enough people who’d be willing to do it. Most Americans, including a too many self professed libertarians, are cowards. Violent revolution, if it happens, will only come as a last resort (it would take something really drastic happening to move any of those who’d be willing to fight to take action). Hopefully it will not come to this, and we can use peaceful means to defeat the big government crowd, but we should also be prepared for the possibility that the situation in this country may be too far gone, and we may already be past that point.

    The government has lots of hi tech weapons now, but even so, there are still enough guns in enough private hands in this country where it would be possible to overthrow the government. It would only take a few million people to grab guns and rise up and the government would have a very difficult time stopping it, IF those people were determined. There are people in government who know this, and it scares the shit out of them, and this is why there’s a big push for gun control and arming up government agents and building up a big spy grid, and internment camps.

  14. Andy

    “George Phillies
    April 23, 2017 at 22:16
    Andy, for California there was a FOIA, or so I am told, that returned with names blanked out, showing that you are right. Apparently there was no further effort to deduce from internal clues who the person was.”

    I wish that there had been some effort to out these government plants via doing more FOIA requests and process of elimination.

  15. Andy

    “Richard Winger
    April 23, 2017 at 22:04
    For FOIA, someone could start with David Nolan, although maybe it’s been obtained already.”

    I have had the same idea. David Nolan would be an excellent person to FOIA since he was one of the founders of the Libertarian Party, and he remained active in it until his death in 2010.

    David Nolan seemed like the real deal and a good guy, so I doubt that he was ever involved in anything nefarious, but I’d be willing to bet that he was spied on by the government from the time that he was a young activist back in the 1960’s before the LP was formed up until he passed away.

  16. dL

    The LP doesn’t pose enough of challenge to the status quo to worry about widespread government infiltration. Besides, the state can pretty much follow the bread crumbs now through standard-op sigint.

    Traditionally, the areas(areas that could be tangential to the LP) that would draw the feds would be alt-right separatist groups, agorism/drug trade and anti-war organization/protest. So, if you are hanging around the Augustus Invictus wing down in Florida, yeah, there might a narc or plant mulling around somewhere. If you walk into a LP convention/function, and you see s/o you don’t know with w/ an agorism T-Shirt being chatty about the trade, my antenna absolutely would go up. If someone is cross-active in both the LP and the anti-war movement, there is possibility that someone could inadvertently bring a narc into the LP social graph. Stuff like that.

    However, I’m agreement w/ Starchild that needlessly speculating on this person or that person being a narc or a plant is counter-productive, at best. Usually, the infiltration/rolling will start w/ someone you wouldn’t know even if you were told their name. And, if you are repeatedly pointing fingers at well-known targets, then you operating in the tradition of the Manchurian Candidate where the ones who are accusing the loudest end up being the actual infiltrators.

  17. Andy

    “dL
    April 23, 2017 at 23:12
    The LP doesn’t pose enough of challenge to the status quo to worry about widespread government infiltration. Besides, the state can pretty much follow the bread crumbs now through standard-op sigint.”

    The government has already been caught spying on tiny anti-war groups. It has already come out that the government sent infiltrators into the Libertarian Party back in the early 1970’s when the party was really small.

    So if the government would do this, then it is not a stretch to say that they are likely still spying on and infiltrating the Libertarian Party today.

    The last thing that the government wants is for libertarian ideas, and the Libertarian Party, to become successful.

  18. dL

    Most Americans, including a too many self professed libertarians, are cowards.

    i would suspect those not afraid to take on the government are at least not afraid to take on the gym…

    Violent revolution, if it happens, will only come as a last resort (it would take something really drastic happening to move any of those who’d be willing to fight to take action). Hopefully it will not come to this…

    well, hopefully, for the sake of the revolution, you are not the one leading the charge

  19. Jill Pyeatt

    There is no question in my mind that operatives are sent in to disrupt the Libertarian Party. I’m surprised it’s even a question. It’s undoubtedly true in the truth communities, also, although I think they’re more successful there than with the LP. (We are a particularly stubborn group, and I think. We also don’t seem to be easily manipulated.)

    Just this weekend a question has come up about a character who keeps popping up in the liberty communities in Los Angeles. It has occurred to me, and apparently a few other people, that he may be up to no good, so someone is going to need to confront him. It’s just something we all need to be aware of.

  20. dL

    The government has already been caught spying on tiny anti-war groups. It has already come out that the government sent infiltrators into the Libertarian Party back in the early 1970’s when the party was really small.

    So if the government would do this, then it is not a stretch to say that they are likely still spying on and infiltrating the Libertarian Party today.

    The government spies on everyone through sigint. Personally, I would peg the Alex Jones conspiracy crowd as a much more fertile ground than the LP for “find the narc.”

  21. Tony From Long island

    When I saw this headline, I knew it was perfect for paranoid nutbag Andy. Why give him fodder? Then again, the one who protests the loudest just might be . . . . .

  22. wredlich Post author

    dL wrote: “So, if you are hanging around the Augustus Invictus wing down in Florida, yeah, there might a narc or plant mulling around somewhere.”

    Actually, part of my concern is that someone like Invictus might be a government plant himself. I’m so paranoid I suspect Adam Kokesh and Alex Jones are actually government operatives.

    The role of such a plant would be to purport to represent the party and discredit it by being extreme and/or nutty.

    Or – increasing level of paranoia – Gary Johnson sticking out his tongue at Savannah Guthrie. Weld all but endorsing Hillary.

    Bob Barr? He lost his 2002 GOP primary partly because of libertarian opposition. https://gwinnettcitizen.com/_Archive/0802/libertariansattackbarr.html

    And not long after that he became a libertarian? And then after his presidential run he returned to the GOP.

    Both Barr and Johnson undercut Ron Paul at every opportunity, even though Paul is clearly more libertarian than either of them.

    Yes, I know I sound paranoid. That doesn’t mean I’m wrong. 🙂

  23. Anthony Dlugos

    “When I saw this headline, I knew it was perfect for paranoid nutbag Andy.”

    haha. That’s the first thought that came to my mind too. This headline is conspiracy theory porn for him.

  24. Thane Eichenauer (@ilovegrover)

    Who is or is not a government operative? My definition would include those who have been, are currently or may receive compensation in the future by the government. By that definition Gary Johnson is a government operative. It is a clear fact that for eight years as government he received a salary from the government of New Mexico as a result of being elected governor of that state. I don’t think that affects his behavior or choices now.

    It is clearly difficult to determine if any given person is or is secretly persuaded or compensated by the federal government, state government, county government or city government (let’s not even mention the Russian government). People can be government operatives as a result in threats to them by agents of the government (let’s just presume we are talking about the federal government but it works for any government entity foreign or domestic).

    By far the best tool available to most of us is observation of the words and deeds of a given person. Secret, personal and private motivations are extremely difficult if not impossible to determine.

    The 2004 film The Manchurian Candidate with Denzel Washington, Meryl Streep and Jon Voight is available for rent for $2.99.
    https://play.google.com/store/movies/details/The_Manchurian_Candidate?id=37B3034BC127EE79MV

    RottenTomatoes.com states “Critics Consensus: While not the classic its predecessor is, this update is well-acted and conjures a chilling resonance.”

    I would prefer that you watch The Interview (2004) but as there is no way to verify my secret, personal and private motivations y’all will simply have to judge me by my actions in saying that for $2.99 via Youtube you are probably more likely to get a laugh out of the experience which I favor whenever possible.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed2kSuKqfz0

    “The film stars Rogen and James Franco as journalists who set up an interview with North Korean leader Kim Jong-un (Randall Park), and are recruited by the CIA to assassinate him. Rogen and Goldberg developed the idea for The Interview in the late 2000s, with Kim Jong-il as the original assassination target.” – Wikipedia

  25. wredlich Post author

    “The LP doesn’t pose enough of challenge to the status quo to worry about widespread government infiltration.”

    While I agree that third parties are not a serious threat to the establishment, that doesn’t mean government isn’t paranoid enough to do it anyway.

    To oversimplify, 10 operatives, each paid $100K/year, would only cost $1M/year. That’s chump change for the establishment not just at the state level, but at the county and local level in large communities. My county sheriff (Palm Beach FL) has over 1500 employees and the county budget is over $4B.

    This was openly done in Broward County. Roger Stone and his crew helped Scott Israel win the 2012 election (after helping his predecessor in 2008). Stone’s cronies got “community liasion” jobs from the Sheriff.
    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fl-sheriff-political-hires-20160827-story.html

    “A log of employees hired by the sheriff shows 10 workers were hired since 2013 into “outreach” roles, their salaries totalling $634,479. The unit is embedded into a $2.4 million community services division.”

    http://www.local10.com/news/after-resignation-bso-political-hiring-at-issue_20151127082744941

    Just months after that election Stone was welcomed as a guest speaker by the Broward LP.
    https://www.facebook.com/events/534647179891210/

  26. wredlich Post author

    Thane writes: “Who is or is not a government operative?”

    It doesn’t have to be government. The major parties and special interest groups both have lots of money.

  27. Andy

    Description of the video below: “Christopher Pyle, Whistleblower Who Sparked Church Hearings of 1970s, on Military Spying of Olympia Peace Activists

    The news of peace activists in Olympia, Washington exposing Army spying, infiltration and intelligence gathering on their groups may strengthen congressional demands for a full-scale investigation of US intelligence activities like those of the 1970s. We speak with law professor and former Army whistleblower Christopher Pyle, whose 1970 disclosure of the militarys widespread surveillance of civilian groups triggered scores of congressional probes, including the Church Committee hearings, where he served as an investigator.”

    Christopher Pyle on Military Spying of Olympia Peace Activists 1 of 2

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhlvN96FF2o

  28. Andy

    “wredlich Post author
    April 24, 2017 at 08:43
    Thane writes: “Who is or is not a government operative?”

    It doesn’t have to be government. The major parties and special interest groups both have lots of money.”

    There are likely plants from government agencies and the major political parties, as the two are tied together. Politically connected corporations may be involved as well.

  29. wredlich Post author

    From the comments it seems most people agree that it happens. I closed the original post with three questions:

    Is it possible to distinguish such plants? What signals should we watch for? Is there anything a third party can do about this?

    Does anyone have responses other than just throwing up your hands and saying nothing can be done?

    Thane came closest to addressing this. Good remarks, but not enough in my view.

  30. Andy

    “wredlich Post author
    April 24, 2017 at 08:41
    ‘The LP doesn’t pose enough of challenge to the status quo to worry about widespread government infiltration.’

    While I agree that third parties are not a serious threat to the establishment, that doesn’t mean government isn’t paranoid enough to do it anyway.”

    The government will go to a lot of trouble in infiltrate tiny peace groups, so if anything, they’d be even more motivated to infiltrate nationally organized alternative political parties.

    The government does not want the Libertarian Party to ever become successful (the same goes for the Green Party and the Constitution Party). One way to make sure that anti-establishment parties do not become successful is to attack them from the outside, by putting up difficult ballot access barriers, keeping their candidates out of debates, making sure that government cronies in the mainstream media don’t give these parties fair coverage, etc… Another way to attack anti-establishment political parties is to send infiltrators into the party to internally sabotage it. Keep the party members fighting among themselves (LP of Oregon?), try to derail activists who are doing things that are productive, waste time and donor money on things that are not productive, etc…

  31. Andy

    The forerunner to the Central Intelligence Agency was the Office of Strategic Services (or OSS). Back in 1944 the OSS distributed a document to their agents on how to sabotage organizations. This document has since been declassified.

    How many of the things below have you seen happen in the Libertarian Party?

    The 16 best ways to sabotage your organization’s productivity, from a CIA manual published in 1944

    http://www.businessinsider.com/oss-manual-sabotage-productivity-2015-11

    From the article: Organizations and Conferences

    Insist on doing everything through “channels.” Never permit short-cuts to be taken in order to expedite decisions.
    Make “speeches.” Talk as frequently as possible and at great length. Illustrate your “points” by long anecdotes and accounts of personal experiences.
    When possible, refer all matters to committees, for “further study and consideration.” Attempt to make the committee as large as possible — never less than five.
    Bring up irrelevant issues as frequently as possible.
    Haggle over precise wordings of communications, minutes, resolutions.
    Refer back to matters decided upon at the last meeting and attempt to re-open the question of the advisability of that decision.
    Advocate ‘caution.’ Be ‘reasonable’ and urge your fellow-conferees to be ‘reasonable’and avoid haste which might result in embarrassments or difficulties later on.
    Managers

    In making work assignments, always sign out the unimportant jobs first. See that important jobs are assigned to inefficient workers.
    Insist on perfect work in relatively unimportant products; send back for refinishing those which have the least flaw.
    To lower morale and with it, production, be pleasant to inefficient workers; give them undeserved promotions.
    Hold conferences when there is more critical work to be done.
    Multiply the procedures and clearances involved in issuing instructions, pay checks, and so on. See that three people have to approve everything where one would do.
    Employees

    Work slowly.
    Contrive as many interruptions to your work as you can.
    Do your work poorly and blame it on bad tools, machinery, or equipment. Complain that these things are preventing you from doing your job right.
    Never pass on your skill and experience to a new or less skillful worker.”

  32. Andy

    “wredlich Post author
    April 24, 2017 at 07:31
    dL wrote: ‘So, if you are hanging around the Augustus Invictus wing down in Florida, yeah, there might a narc or plant mulling around somewhere.’

    Actually, part of my concern is that someone like Invictus might be a government plant himself. I’m so paranoid I suspect Adam Kokesh and Alex Jones are actually government operatives.”

    There is wisdom in DTA, Don’t Trust Anybody, but reality is that if there are plants, which every piece of evidence says that there are (including the documented cases of this happening), keep in mind that everyone is not a plant. It is more a case of a few key people in a few key places.

    I have heard people raise questions about a bunch of figures in the liberty movement, including Adam Kokesh and Alex Jones, but I doubt that either of them are government plants. I met Adam Kokesh in person twice, and I hung out with him both times, and I’ve followed his work for years, and I think that he’s the real deal. I have followed Alex Jones since the fall of 2001 (shortly after 9/11), and I met him in person once, at an event I attended in Los Angeles years ago called 9/11 and the Neo-Con Agenda. I only spoke to him briefly, but I did see him interacting with other people, and he struck me as being the real deal as well.

    “The role of such a plant would be to purport to represent the party and discredit it by being extreme and/or nutty.”

    There are likely plants who play this role, but I doubt that Adam Kokesh or Alex Jones are a part of this. Also, keep in mind that most of Adam Kokesh’s activism has not been with the Libertarian Party. I’m not sure how long Adam Kokesh has been an LP member, but even if he’s been a member longer than I think that he has, the majority of his activism has had nothing to do with the LP. Alex Jones has never been a member of the Libertarian Party, nor is he a member of any political party.

    “Or – increasing level of paranoia – Gary Johnson sticking out his tongue at Savannah Guthrie. Weld all but endorsing Hillary.”

    I don’t know if Gary Johnson stuck his tongue out at that report because he was trying to make the party look bad, or just because he’s goofy (it could be the latter). It should be blatantly obviously that Bill Weld is an establishment shill, being that he’s a member of the Council On Foreign Relations, and has close ties to the Bush family and the Clinton family and Mitt Romney. Is Gary Johnson also an establishment shill? Maybe so, or he could be a dupe that was being used by establishment shills. I will say this about Gary Johnson, and that is that his record as Governor is not as libertarian as he and his supporters made it out to be, as under his administrations, state government spending increased greatly, and the state debt more than doubled, among other things that he did that were not that libertarian, if libertarian at all.

    “Bob Barr? He lost his 2002 GOP primary partly because of libertarian opposition.”

    Former government prosecutor, former (?) CIA, Bob Barr, who voted for the war in Iraq and The Patriot Act, was an obvious establishment shill, like Bill Weld.

    “And not long after that he became a libertarian? And then after his presidential run he returned to the GOP.”

    Not only did Bob Barr return to the Republican Party, he went back to endorsing big government Republican candidates (heck, even when he was in the LP, he still worked as a fundraiser for big government Republican candidates, and he brought in way more money for these Republicans than he ever did for the LP) like Newt Gingrich and Mitt Romney. Barr’s VP running mate stuck around the LP a little bit longer, manged to con enough delegates to vote to put him on the LNC, then while sitting on the LNC, he started openly shilling for Mitt Romney, which is what led to his departure from the party. Root endorsed Mitt Romney for President in 2012, and Donald Trump in 2016, and he has not done a damn thing to support any Libertarians.

    “Both Barr and Johnson undercut Ron Paul at every opportunity, even though Paul is clearly more libertarian than either of them.”

    I suspect that Barr and Johnson were both shills who were sent in to derail the movement that Ron Paul started with the Ron Paul r3VOLution. Ron Paul has a much better track record than either Barr or Johnson, and his campaigns for President in 2007-2008 and 2011-2012 helped wake up and motivate a heck of a lot of people. This scared the shit out of the establishment, and they wanted to make sure that this movement never really took off in the Libertarian Party.

  33. Andy

    “It should be blatantly obviously that Bill Weld”

    Should read, “It should be blatantly obvious that Bill Weld…”

  34. Andy

    Description of the video below: “The TEA party movement has been infiltrated by BIG government Neo-conservatives in order to steer the movement towards the “business as usual” candidates. Don’t be fooled America!”

    TEA Party Movement Hijacked by Big Government NEO-Cons – Who will win?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCtW3Z3fnqQ

  35. Jill Pyeatt

    As far as something we can do about being infiltrated, perhaps getting to know someone before making him an officer of the party would be a good idea. We have this thing in CA of being so excited by new people that we give them authority much too soon. I don’t know if that’s true in other states, but it’s certainly true in Los Angeles County.

  36. Andy

    “Jill Pyeatt
    April 24, 2017 at 10:56
    As far as something we can do about being infiltrated, perhaps getting to know someone before making him an officer of the party would be a good idea. We have this thing in CA of being so excited by new people that we give them authority much too soon. I don’t know if that’s true in other states, but it’s certainly true in Los Angeles County.”

    The same goes with candidates. Bill Weld is the best example of this. He’d only been in the party for a couple of weeks (not much longer than that, if at all), prior to the national convention, and he had not been properly vetted, yet he walked away with our party’s nomination for Vice President. This turned out to be a disaster just as I predicted.

  37. Andy

    Another example is that John Moore guy in Nevada. Some Libertarians were so excited to have a sitting Republican State Assemblyman switch to Libertarian that they did not bother to properly vet him before the LNC gave him $10,000, and some people in the party directed other donors to give him something like another $60,000, most of which came from one wealthy donor, and Moore ended up stabbing Libertarians in the back when the Nevada legislature came back in session by voting in favor of a motel tax increase to fund a football stadium, and by voting in favor of authorizing a sales tax increase for more money for the police, and he squandered the campaign donations and did nothing for the Libertarian Party other than garner bad publicity. I predicted that something like this would happen as well, but it turned out even worse than I had imagined.

  38. Anthony Dlugos

    “Bill Weld is the best example of this. He’d only been in the party for a couple of weeks (not much longer than that, if at all), prior to the national convention, and he had not been properly vetted, yet he walked away with our party’s nomination for Vice President. This turned out to be a disaster just as I predicted.”

    lol. Andy is on fire with his “inside job” nuttery today.

    A) what sense would it make to use a well-known ex-Republican and well-known recent convert as an “operative?” Kinda defeats the whole rationale when he is welcomed as-is. Its more likely that YOU are the operative, using your constant accusations as cover.

    B) J-W tripled the previous best LP vote total, which was also Johnson of course, so unless you are using your own drug-induced psychedelic dream to define a disaster, I think we’ll have to go with the objective evidence here.

  39. Tony From Long Island

    I would believe that the Reps and Dems might plant moles in third parties, but I just have a hard time with “the government” doing it.

  40. Tony From Long Island

    Andy:

    ” . . . .The same goes with candidates. Bill Weld is the best example of this. He’d only been in the party for a couple of weeks (not much longer than that, if at all), prior to the national convention, and he had not been properly vetted, yet he walked away with our party’s nomination for Vice President. This turned out to be a disaster just as I predicted. . . . . ”

    Andy’s obsession with Weld and Johnson continues.

  41. Andy

    Anthony Dlugos said: “A) what sense would it make to use a well-known ex-Republican and well-known recent convert as an ‘operative?’ Kinda defeats the whole rationale when he is welcomed as-is. Its more likely that YOU are the operative, using your constant accusations as cover.”

    Bill Weld was not a undercover operative. He was an out in the open, blatant, in-your-face operative.

    Bill Weld was also not a “convert” to libertarianism. Sure, he joined the Libertarian Party, but joining an organization does not automatically mean that one really believes in that organization’s principles.

    “B) J-W tripled the previous best LP vote total, which was also Johnson of course, so unless you are using your own drug-induced psychedelic dream to define a disaster, I think we’ll have to go with the objective evidence here.”

    They also ran UNDER THE EASIEST SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES UNDER WHICH THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY HAS EVER FIELDED A PRESIDENTIAL TICKET, something which you always conveniently neglect to mention. There was real potential for the LP presidential ticket to get a lot more votes than they received last year, and Johnson/Weld BLEW it. Many of the votes they got were just PROTEST VOTES, as in they were not really so much votes for Johnson/Weld, or for the Libertarian Party or philosophy (which Johnson/Weld did a shitty job of representing), as they were votes AGAINST Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump.

    Also, as I have pointed out multiple times here, there is no point in getting votes for the sake of getting votes. The goal of the Libertarian Party is to advance the party’s platform. Running candidates who run against the platform, and/or who severely water down the platform, both of which Johnson/Weld did, is counter-productive to the goals of the party. If you are interested in getting votes for the sake of getting votes, then go to the Republican or Democratic parties, because getting votes for the sake of getting votes is NOT the mission of the Libertarian Party.

  42. Anthony Dlugos

    “He was an out in the open, blatant, in-your-face operative.”

    Or, the Libertarian Party delegates just preferred his pitch to your xenophobic, right-wing, Troofer nuttery.

    “Sure, he joined the Libertarian Party, but joining an organization does not automatically mean that one really believes in that organization’s principles.”

    lol. what does? your unilateral decision.

    “They also ran UNDER THE EASIEST SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES UNDER WHICH THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY HAS EVER FIELDED A PRESIDENTIAL TICKET,”

    Triple the previous best result is triple the previous best result. You can put as many words in caps that you want, that’s just a fact. I’d also love to know how you know which votes are protest votes? Vulcan Mind Mild? Not that it matters. a vote is a vote, they all count the same.

    Luckily, you cover your ass anyway and finish out by saying vote totals don’t matter, which, again, basically means the LP will succeed when it does what Andy wants it to do. He is the sole measure of success.

  43. dL

    The LP doesn’t pose enough of challenge to the status quo to worry about widespread government infiltration.”

    While I agree that third parties are not a serious threat to the establishment, that doesn’t mean government isn’t paranoid enough to do it anyway.

    To oversimplify, 10 operatives, each paid $100K/year, would only cost $1M/year. That’s chump change for the establishment not just at the state level, but at the county and local level in large communities. My county sheriff (Palm Beach FL) has over 1500 employees and the county budget is over $4B.

    This was openly done in Broward County. Roger Stone and his crew helped Scott Israel win the 2012 election (after helping his predecessor in 2008). Stone’s cronies got “community liasion” jobs from the Sheriff.

    I’m generally referring to the feds, specifically the FBI. Local/yokel Barney Fife amateur hour, no doubt. But you will also usually end up knowing about it. So I would I say the Roger Stone example certainly happens but finding out about it is the rule, not the exception. So, it is not the tip of the iceberg of a Barney Fife deep state.

  44. D. Frank Robinson

    Not everyone using ad hominen attacks are infiltrators, but such tactics are typical of infiltrators to stimulate conflict and circumstantial evidence against the smear tech user. As a suspect, judging by his verbiage alone, I cite as an example Anthony Dlugos. He has no credibility with me. You read and compare and decide.

    On the other hand, people who attempt to ground their arguments in higher level abstractions are less likely to be infiltrators because debating ideas does not necessarily engage emotional antagonisms or paralyze cooperative action.

    Infiltrators are unlikely to push “big concepts” that engage high level abstractions. Infiltrators will tend to be devils for details as illustrated by the OSS document cited previously.

    The LP will never have an organizational culture that cannot be improved nor invulnerable, but deconstructing its core principles requires a scope of competence far above that of state security bureaucrats.

  45. Tony From Long Island

    Andy: ” . . . . .Bill Weld was not a undercover operative. He was an out in the open, blatant, in-your-face operative. . . . ”

    You truly have serious mental health issues. Why are you still a member of the LP? You’re aren’t a libertarian.

  46. Anthony Dlugos

    “Not everyone using ad hominen attacks are infiltrators, but such tactics are typical of infiltrators to stimulate conflict and circumstantial evidence against the smear tech user. As a suspect, judging by his verbiage alone, I cite as an example Anthony Dlugos. He has no credibility with me. ”

    well, I’m not sure what all that means, but in my defense, it is a Monday.

  47. Deran

    Do you mean like Cointelpro? It’s documented by multiple legitimate sources the US, state and local police units did this to Left orgs. I don’t know abt the GOP infiltrating the Libertarian Party, or the Democrats the Green Party?

    I suspect it’s more effective in terms of money and human time use to keep an eye on things, and as there is still a strong crazy chatter element who needs to spend the money and time infiltrating?!

    I also think the political and economic elites find it more efficatious to keep control of Duopoly and ballot access laws and ballot access regulations?

  48. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    Mr. Redlich – Undercover operatives. specifically Mark Robinson and ( especially ) Mark Seidenberg, were sent into the American Independent Party in order to break it away from, and hence severely weaken, the Constitution Party.
    I have documented their corruption at TheCorruptionofAlanKeyes.blogspot.com and how they filed fake documents with the state, also known as fraud, to accomplish their mission; a mission which I was informed was approved of and initiated by the highest levels of the Republican Party.

  49. ATBAFT

    “There was real potential for the LP presidential ticket to get a lot more votes than they received last year, and Johnson/Weld BLEW it. ”

    Isn’t it about time, Andy, to give this meme up? Please tell us just which other candidates for the nomination were mainstream Libertarians who would have gathered both more protest votes and more “real libertarians?” Or name someone who fits the bill but didn’t run, or wasn’t asked to run. If you can’t explain your “real potential,” then let’s move on to other things.

  50. Carol Moore

    The real infiltrators are all the “libertarian Republicans” who decide to come into the LP and make it LESS libertarian on their favorite issues. We’ve been fighting them for 40 years.

    Right now the abortion issue is the one thing keeping a lot of them out. Ask Ms. Harlos.

    Their philosophy on social issues (especially liberation of women) and war are repugnant. Here’s some good articles about GOP motivations in this Section of Links: http://pro-choicelibertarians.net/links/#GOPmotivations

    The Pro-Choice Libertarians Mission Statement heavily emphasizes the pernicious effect of these GOP newbies on the party. Too many remain statists, or pro-govt on their favorite issues, so it doesn’t matter if they are paid or voluntary.

    http://pro-choicelibertarians.net/about/missionstatement/

    Hey, how about posting our mission statement here??

  51. Andy Craig

    It absolutely happens, and I’ve seen it, but it’s not the CIA or government agencies, it’s just the much more mundane hack political operatives of the GOP (and maybe some Dems, but mostly GOP) who’d much rather the party be weak and small and ineffective and, if they can manage it, non-existent.

    As for how to identify it– a good sign is when somebody, in turn one after the other, starts attacking and running off the people who’ve done the best and most effective work for the party. Doing insane and obviously harmful things that damage the party’s reputation is another sign. If more than a half-dozen members of the party have cited this person as their reason for quitting, that should be some kind of red flag. Maybe in some cases these aren’t plants, they’re just kooks with nothing better to do. But it doesn’t really matter. You’re never going to find absolute proof that any given person is… who knows, being paid cash under the table by some major GOP donor in the state, or maybe just doing it for their own entertainment and to take out a threat they perceive to the GOP candidates they secretly support. Simply being a former Republican or formerly involved in the GOP is no test because that casts far too wide a net, obviously.

    So…. there’s not much that can be done in terms of directly exposing plants as plants. But there’s plenty to be done in opposing people doing things that harm that party, whether they’re doing it because they’re a plant or not.

  52. Thane Eichenauer (@ilovegrover)

    wredlich, you expand the problem being addressed by several magnitudes when you include political parties and special interest groups.
    Andy, you expand it further yet by including corporations.

    If either of you are going to find a solution or method it will be by narrowing down your question thereby allowing a specific possible answer to be found. When nobody here even has a general answer, why make the question bigger when the answer is currently nowhere on the horizon?

    Given the precept that law enforcement agencies and intelligence agencies exempt themselves from disclosure (e.g. they are allowed to reject questions and all out lie) I feel the best and most effective result that will cause the collective bureaucracy to avoid creating secret operatives is to publicize past instances of producing secret operatives.

    wredlich and Andy, if each of you could provide two specific past examples of government operatives (with specific names and an URL) that would be a start in answering the various questions posed of “Is it possible to distinguish such plants? What signals should we watch for? Is there anything a third party can do about this?”

    P.S. “Secret, personal and private motivations are extremely difficult if not impossible to determine.” is one step away from saying nothing can be done which I do not claim. A successful method might be currently unknown. A successful method might require better questions (it certainly requires that the problem statement not be expanded). The primary reason I exclude political parties, corporations and special interest groups is because even though the government can and may be lawless in our eyes We The People do oftentimes expect government to follow certain rules that it may not expect from nominally non-government organizations. Government makes a certain minimal effort not to disappoint We The People. Those other groups have a far lesser desire to respond to the expectations of the public.

  53. wredlich Post author

    Anthony Dlugos writes:

    A) what sense would it make to use a well-known ex-Republican and well-known recent convert as an “operative?”

    That misunderestimates the problem. 🙂 It happens at multiple levels. Some of the operatives may act openly. Roger Stone would be a good example of this. Despite his long record of work for the establishment, he comes in telling libertarians what they want to hear and at least some of them fall for it. Johnson, Weld and Barr are other examples of the same.

    But the establishment (government/parties/special interests) may still plant hidden operatives as well. We know that they do this to other groups. Why would we think they don’t do it to us?

    B) J-W tripled the previous best LP vote total

    Yes, but they did so in a very favorable environment. Despite that favorable environment, Johnson got crushed by Evan McMullin in Utah.

    I tripled the LP candidate before me (and the one after) in NY in 2010 despite a very unfavorable environment with 4 other third party candidates often getting more media attention than me. Even if you divide J-W’s campaign spending by 50, they still had 10 times as much money.

    I ran on a clear focused libertarian message (“stop wasting money”). J-W ran such a confused campaign – what was the message?

  54. wredlich Post author

    Thane writes:

    “wredlich and Andy, if each of you could provide two specific past examples of government operatives (with specific names and an URL) that would be a start in answering the various questions posed of “Is it possible to distinguish such plants? What signals should we watch for? Is there anything a third party can do about this?””

    I’m not claiming I have enough knowledge or brilliance to answer these questions. I’m genuinely asking if others have any ideas.

    From Andy Craig: “there’s not much that can be done in terms of directly exposing plants as plants. But there’s plenty to be done in opposing people doing things that harm that party, whether they’re doing it because they’re a plant or not.”

    Well said.

    I also think there’s something to be said for some level of ideological consistency. I’m sure we all differ but in my mind there are at least two litmus tests.

    A libertarian must oppose the drug war. (Bob Barr fails that test)

    A libertarian must oppose interventionist foreign policy. (Gary Johnson fails)

    As an AnCap I go much much further than this, but aren’t these two points core beliefs of every genuine libertarian?

  55. Andy

    Thane said: “wredlich and Andy, if each of you could provide two specific past examples of government operatives (with specific names and an URL)”

    I already posted videos above where government plants got outed in peace groups in Minnesota and Washington. Watch those videos.

  56. Andy

    I have heard from multiple sources of long time LP members about three FOIA requests that were done that showed that there were government plants operating in the Libertarian Party in the 1970’s and 1980’s, and I’m pretty sure into the early 1990’s. The names were redacted in these reports and no follow up investigations were ever done so the plants were never outed. So we don’t know who these people were, and some of them may still be with us today.

    Another long time LP member who once worked at the national office, and who was on the LNC a long time ago told me that it was known by people in the party that the government was spying on LP national headquarters in the 1970’s and 1980’s.

  57. Cody Quirk

    “…The US government and a bunch of other governments also pay people to troll online. They post under fake names and IP anonymizers and spread government propaganda. They also attack and slander effective activists and try to create disharmony in online discussion forums.”

    Funny, that exactly has been going on in numerous L.P. groups on Facebook and elsewhere due to the lovely Pro-Trump/alt right supporters that come in and start trouble in order to neutralize opposition to their neocon furher, or actually want to turn the L.P. into a alt-right political party that they can call home and yet are too clueless to realize that they won’t win on that front… Or both.

  58. Anthony Dlugos

    “Despite that favorable environment, Johnson got crushed by Evan McMullin in Utah.”

    come on, that was a unique situation. Thinking a Libertarian was going to beat a Republican Mormon in Utah ignores all lessons from political history in this country.

    “J-W ran such a confused campaign – what was the message?”

    The message was “socially tolerant and fiscally responsible.” Was the campaign perfect? No. Did we have a better option? Absolutely not. Candidates are more than just their campaign, in the same way interviewees for any job are more than just their interviews. Everyone else in Orlando was either nuts, catastrophically unqualified, or both.

  59. wredlich Post author

    >>“Despite that favorable environment, Johnson got crushed by Evan McMullin in Utah.”

    come on, that was a unique situation.< < Yes. And Trump-Clinton was also a unique situation. >>The message was “socially tolerant and fiscally responsible.”<< Maybe. I heard that phrase occasionally. It was not just an imperfect campaign. It was a terrible campaign. It's not just that they failed to deliver a libertarian message. They failed to deliver any clear message at all.

  60. Anthony Dlugos

    Well, we disagree, then.

    As an aside, I’m not looking at this from the point of view of the typical Libertarian, who is probably about 3 standard deviations above the mean in terms of time and effort spent in politics and political analysis.

    For the millions of non-libertarians who voted for J-W, they saw a couple decent people (especially relative to the other options), ex-governors with an understandable limited-government, not-extreme partisan message. They voted and went back to their regular lives, thinking nothing more of it.

    And as I said, we had no other option in Orlando, thats for sure.

  61. ATBAFT

    “Another long time LP member who once worked at the national office, and who was on the LNC a long time ago told me that it was known by people in the party that the government was spying on LP national headquarters in the 1970’s and 1980’s.”

    My recollection is that a very prominent New Jersey libertarian activist (whom I won’t name), who wasn’t on LNC but attended many meetings and conventions, had been nailed in some drug bust and was persuaded to be a paid spy in exchange for a plea bargain. As I haven’t heard the name in many years, I suppose that person is now inactive.

  62. Tony From Long Island

    Warren, you and Johnson will likely be the last libertarians I voted for. Unless the LP nominates someone in the Johnson / Weld mold I probably have turned the corner. When I did vote for you I thought you were more of a moderate libertarian, but now I’m not sure.

  63. wredlich Post author

    Tony:

    “When I did vote for you I thought you were more of a moderate libertarian, but now I’m not sure.”

    I was then. Ideologically I’ve gone much further after reading Rothbard’s Anatomy of the State.

    But that’s ideology and I remain pragmatic. Much of the hardcore libertarian/anarchocapitalist agenda is unattainable in the near term and we should focus on what we can accomplish, while working to persuade others for the long term.

  64. Oliver Steinberg

    The government certainly spied on and disrupted any party with socialist or left-wing politics, going back sixty years or more–most obviously in the case of the Communist Party (several of whose leaders were sent to prison for their Marxist theorizing, characterized as attempts to overthrow the government; and then the Trotskyite Socialist Workers Party was subjected to so much government interference and actual criminal attack–such as burglaries (primarily FBI and military intelligence), and sabotage, that the courts recognized the fact and excepted SWP from having to disclose names of contributors, etc.
    The U.S. Senate’s Church Committee hearings in the 1970’s, along with the Watergate scandal, led to exposure of the FBI’s Cointelpro political surveillance and repression strategy. There is no reason to think anything is different now, and plenty of reason to think that the temporary post-Watergate hiatus in spying lasted only until the Reagan administration, when the whole apparatus was revived—on steroids, as it were..
    Based on past revelations, it’s reasonable to believe that the secret police apparatus is far more obsessed with any little socialist splinter group, or with Greens and other environmental groups (officially categorized as “eco-terrorists!) than with the Libertarian or other pro-capitalist parties.
    One should be aware of the dual threats of either informants (usually paid to collect names and to instigate illegal or unwise actions) and actual undercover police spies. These latter may be from the FBI or military intelligence, as well as from state or local police “Red Squads,” and could also be narcotics investigators. And of course, any target of political spying by the government is vulnerable to the whole array of high-tech methods of surveillance and intrusion.
    What to do about it. If possible, do not allow any one person to concentrate control of key organizational aspects—treasury, membership data, website or social media or publication authority.
    Write into the by-laws that informants and undercover operatives must be expelled (but be sure to provide due process, to keep the cops themselves from abusing the provision.) Obviously, avoid illegal activities (the SWP was always emphatic about that, which made the FBI assault on them very indefensible when it finally got to court.) Try to be courteous to your party comrades and associates, despite political disagreements, so that personality conflicts and resentments arising from personal insults can be minimized. Then if you see someone trying to instigate such conflicts, you need to figure out who they really are.
    Any open political association can’t keep out determined infiltrators, so it isn’t fruitful to spend too much time wondering who they are. Just assume you may be infiltrated–and if your party is showing signs of effectively appealing to the people, that assumption is well warranted. Knowing that our taxes are paying for these police-state operations is motivation enough to keep fighting against the corrupt system and for the ideals and principles of freedom and justice.

  65. Gene Berkman

    I have been involved in The Libertarian Party since attending the Denver convention, and I have met a number of kooks and a number of people who probably alienated others from the Libertarian movement by the way they acted or the way they talked. That is inevitable in any group, and particulary inevitable in any political group.

    Democrats and Republicans both have kooks in their parties, but they are not as prominent in big organizations. They stand out among us because the LP is so small. But being a kook, or being annoying is a long way from being a plant sent in by an enemy organization with a desire to destroy our party.

    Most of the Republicans who come into the Libertarian Party do so because they are fed up with the Republican Party for one reason or another. Often they don’t stay after they find out what the LP stands for, or they leave after they see how small it is.

    The real disruption in the party has come from three sources: people who came in during and after the Ron Paul campaign in 1988 who disagreed with the Libertarian pro-choice position on abortion, and sometimes the Libertarian position on immigration; Libertarians who supported the Iraq War in 2002 because they believed the propaganda about a Hussein link to Al Qaeda, or about WMD, or just because Hussein was an oppressive dictator; and Libertarians who think they have a real chance to win a partisan election, and are willing to sound like conservatives to do so.

    As the Libertarian Movement gets bigger, and the Libertarian institutions outside the Libertarian Party continue to promote mainstream antiwar, pro-choice libertarianism the first two problems will become less significant. For his part, Gary Johnson is pro-choice and pro-immigrant, and he opposed the Iraq War. Gary did sound weak on intervention when discussing theoretical interventions that had not happened.

  66. George Dance

    Tony: “Warren, you and Johnson will likely be the last libertarians I voted for. Unless the LP nominates someone in the Johnson / Weld mold I probably have turned the corner. When I did vote for you I thought you were more of a moderate libertarian, but now I’m not sure.”

    Hey, Tony, there’s been no one more supportive of Gary Johnson than I was – I think I’m even more moderate than you, since I considered Bob Barr worth supporting, too.

    But I think it’s just common sense to think the security state is keeping tabs on us. Considering the nature of the beasts – both the beasts who work for the security state, and the beasts who hover on the fringes of the libertarian movement – I don’t expect it would be any other way.

  67. George Dance

    Mr. Redlich: ““J-W ran such a confused campaign – what was the message?”

    Economy: “The government needs to stop stifling economic growth.”
    http://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/24/the-government-needs-to-stop-stifling-economic-growth-gary-johnson-commentary.html
    Civil liberties: “We need to stop criminalizing personal choice.”
    http://time.com/4452373/gary-johnson-personal-choice/
    Foreign policy: “The best word to describe my approach to military interventions abroad is that I am a skeptic…. I would be the president who would have to be convinced it is absolutely necessary to protect the American people or clear U.S. interests.”
    http://nationalinterest.org/feature/gary-johnson-my-foreign-policy-vision-17974

    Of course, if you were reading about the campaign on IPR, you wouldn’t have heard any of that.

  68. George Dance

    D. Frank Robinson: “Today, open discussions in social media on strategy and tactics should always emphasize the non-aggression principle even when the philosophical issues are radical. Real Libertarians will never advocate the violent overthrow of the government. Many of us believe the system will collapse of its own weight as the Soviet Union did. Regardless, anyone advocating violence among Libertarians should be viewed as a likely plant.”

    I’d agree with that, and I suppose that’s the truth behind the “NAP was just to convince the government we’re not terrorists” meme. It’s a collateral benefit.

    On the other hand, though, I hear far too often: “The government is aggressing against us, so we can kill government employees in self-defense.” Sometimes it’s even: “Republican/Democratic voters are aggressing against us, so we can kill them in self-defense.”

  69. Andy

    Gene Berkman said: “For his part, Gary Johnson is pro-choice”

    When Gary Johnson was Governor of New Mexico, he signed a bill to BAN late term abortions. He also supports parental notification if a minor wants to get an abortion.

    “and he opposed the Iraq War.”

    He wanted Bill Weld to be his running mate, and he said that if he were elected President, Weld would be his co-President. Bill Weld supported the war in Iraq. Gary Johnson also said that if he were elected President, he’d offer the position of Secretary of State to Mitt Romney. Mitt Romney also supported the war in Iraq.

  70. Thane Eichenauer (@ilovegrover)

    Warren, per wikipedia on Bob Barr:
    “Barr would later reverse his position on medical marijuana, joining MPP as a lobbyist five years later. In a June 4, 2008, interview with Stephen Colbert on the Colbert Report, Barr confirmed that he now supports ending marijuana prohibition, as well as the War on Drugs, for which he once vehemently fought. In 2009, he was hired by the MPP to lobby to successfully overturn the amendment that he had authored.”

    Footnote for quote:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Barr#cite_note-53

  71. paulie

    Is it possible to distinguish such plants?

    Not universally. To be effective, any infiltration operation has to disguise its operatives so they can’t be distinguished. Thus, you will find some operatives who work to radicalize the group while others work to neutralize its ideology, some who are wallflowers and some who are attention grabbers, some who are workhorses and some who are lurkers, some who strive on infighting and some who aim to be everyone’s friend and no one’s enemy in the group they are infiltrating, etc, etc. If all infiltrators behaved the same they would be easy to identify, which is the exact opposite of what any group conducting infiltration wants.

  72. Andy

    “Thane Eichenauer (@ilovegrover)
    April 26, 2017 at 00:28
    Warren, per wikipedia on Bob Barr:
    ‘Barr would later reverse his position on medical marijuana, joining MPP as a lobbyist five years later. In a June 4, 2008, interview with Stephen Colbert on the Colbert Report, Barr confirmed that he now supports ending marijuana prohibition, as well as the War on Drugs, for which he once vehemently fought. In 2009, he was hired by the MPP to lobby to successfully overturn the amendment that he had authored.'”

    After this, Bob Barr would go on to endorse drug warrior Newt Gingrich for the Republican Party’s presidential nomination, even suggesting that Libertarians should vote for drug warrior Newt Gingrich, and after Gingrich lost in the Republican primaries, Bob Barr went on to endorse drug warrior Mitt Romney for President.

  73. Caren Smith

    Yes there are government plants, but don’t feel special. Every political group is being watched, whether it’s right, left or the middle.
    I actually have suspected the own merits of IPR and writer of this post, Warren Redlich to be one for a long time.

  74. Andy

    “Caren Smith
    April 26, 2017 at 02:44
    Yes there are government plants, but don’t feel special. Every political group is being watched, whether it’s right, left or the middle.
    I actually have suspected the own merits of IPR and writer of this post, Warren Redlich to be one for a long time.”

    Who is Caren Smith? I have never heard of her. I have never heard of anyone spelling Caren with “C” either.

  75. wredlich Post author

    “I actually have suspected the own merits of IPR and writer of this post, Warren Redlich to be one for a long time.”

    I was wondering if someone would suggest I might be a plant. I know I’m not, but how do I prove it? What are the things in my life that distinguish me from someone who is or might be a plant?

    Some characteristics I’ve thought about:
    1. Former government employment – Yes I was a government employee but for a short time as a court clerk. This also tags Adam Kokesh (soldier) and both Johnson and Weld (Governors).

    Similarly, Roger Stone and his coterie all have done substantial work for political and government insiders with some receiving obvious payback jobs (Broward Sheriff most recently). Stone’s buddy Tim Suereth is also ex-military. Maybe a CIA guy or CIA reject?

    2. Demonstrable source of non-governmental income. I think I’m pretty good here. I built a website that made money from Google ads, and I’ve also been a lawyer representing regular people for over 20 years.

    On this one I wonder about Adam Kokesh. What’s his source of income?

    3. Normal life – I have wife and kids and live in a suburban house. My kids go to public schools.

    A plant might have a less typical life. Or would they have normal lives too?

    Anyone else have ideas for things to look for?

    Ideological inconsistency (Barr)? Partisan inconsistency (me)?

  76. paulie

    Kokesh has family money and makes some money on books, speeches and donations.

    Government plants frequently have “cover” jobs or businesses. And not all government plants have a history of government or military background. Some are people who got jammed up in a legal situation and were turned as an alternative to prison. Some act out of personal resentment against people in their organizations, jealousy, spite, or greed (financial reward).

    Again, if they were easy to identify or even eliminate people from suspicion as they would not be doing their job properly.

    Part of the impact of government plants is that you are supposed to suspect either no one or everyone. And if it was easy to tell who is not a plant you could always put only those people in key positions. Thus, plants have to be unidentifiable – that is lacking in any universal characteristics – or they are failing at their task.

    And, yes, plants can have normal lives, spouses and kids, or not. Either way they could still be plants.

  77. Tony From Long Island

    Andy: ” . . . .When Gary Johnson was Governor of New Mexico, he signed a bill to BAN late term abortions. He also supports parental notification if a minor wants to get an abortion. . . . . ”

    Why do you INSISIT on your non-stop war on retired former politicians?? Get over it!!! You repeat yourself daily.

    Most people who are pro-choice support a ban on abortions in the 3rd trimester except for VERY limited circumstances. I don’t follow your point (other than to find ANY possible way to attack Gov. Johnson)

  78. Andy

    WRedlich said: “On this one I wonder about Adam Kokesh. What’s his source of income?”

    Like I said above, DTA, Don’t Trust Anyone.

    Having said this, I too wondered the same thing about Adam Kokesh. I believe that he earns money off of his book and other merchandise (t-shirts, etc…), as well as donations. He also makes some money off of YouTube ad revenue. I’m not sure if his father is still alive (I know that his mother is living, but his parents got divorced at some point), but I’ve heard that his father had money, so me have an inheritance, or he may otherwise get money from family. He was also in the military and is a veteran of Gulf War II, and although he was not in long enough to receive a pension, I believe that he gets some kind of partial disability check from the military. It does not really sound good for a self professed libertarian, particularly a self professed anarchist libertarian, to get a check from the government, but he was in the military, and he was in Gulf War II, and he apparently qualified for some kind of partial disability. Adam is certainly not the only libertarian in the country to receive money from the government, either from employment on contracting, or from a pension or disability.

    I had wondered if Adam’s prior military service and partial disability check from the government were signs that he’s a government plant, but I lean toward thinking that he is not a plant. I’ve followed his work for years, and although I have some minor disagreements with him, I think that he’s put out a very good body of work overall, and that he is effective at spreading the message of liberty. While I’ve been on the petition trail over the last year, I’ve actually encountered a few random members of the public which in the field gathering signatures who have brought Adam Kokesh up to me, without me having prompted them. This is a sign that he is reaching people and having a positive effect. I have also met and hung out with Adam Kokesh twice, in Orlando, and in Philadelphia, and my impression of him is that he’s the real deal.

  79. Andy

    “paulie
    April 27, 2017 at 11:48
    Should read ‘add a blurb to your Tom Woods article..'”

    I will get to it later, but if somebody can show that Tom Woods and/or Walter Block and/or Robert Wenzel have been or are dues paying members of the LP, I don’t think that it is necessary. I know that Woods and Block have bother spoken at LP conventions/meetings. Also, Libertarians for Trump did have some LP members in its ranks, such as Gigi Bowman (she may be a former LP member at this point).

    NOTE FOR THOSE WHO JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS: Tom Woods and Robert Wenzel were NEVER part of Libertarians for Trump, and neither endorsed or vote for Trump, or Gary Johnson for that matter.

  80. paulie

    I know that Woods and Block have bother spoken at LP conventions/meetings.

    I think that is all you need to say for a CYA blurb. All the comments back and forth about it you could have done it 20 times by now.

  81. Tony From Long Island

    Get to it later?? This thread is pretty much done . . . In the time you spent writing that useless post you could have added that blurb Paulie asked you DAYS AGO to do.

  82. Great ideas

    More precisely, Andy and Paul are the government trolls and I am posting from an anonymizer at my private sector, non-government contracted job.

  83. paulie

    If you’re telling the truth, you should get back to work and stop wasting your employer’s time, office and computer for your trolling. And if you are lying, you are already using your employer’s time, office and computer for their intended purpose.

  84. Pingback: KN@PP Stir Podcast, Episode 126: ‘Please Refrain from Masticating the Henway’ | Independent Political Report

  85. D. Frank Robinson

    Here I go again, but the relevance seems obvious to me.

    The LP Statement of Principles (SoP), the non-aggression pledge and the 7/8ths rule in the LP Bylaws were intended to immunize as much as we thought feasible against the ideological misrepresentation and dilution of our goals. We sought to entrench ideas not people and thereby limited the scope of what particular cliques in the future might attempt to do with LP brand. There will be cliques, some well-meaning and self-sponsored and, some infiltrators from the Establishment whether partisan-sponsored or government sponsored.

    As for so-called party discipline I, personally, think it should be applicable only to party officials and adjudicated within party rules. Members themselves should immune to purging and subject only to peer pressure and reputation. That does mean there will be gossip because such is the nature of beings with language.

    The LP was founded in the Vietnam War era and as the song says, paranoia strikes deep. Today is different only in that the technology is more effective and pervasive.

    It is useful the air these concerns, but if the Establishment really wanted to blow up the LP anytime in the last five decades they would have done it by instigating a false flag scandal such as, oh say, framing a prominent Libertarian(s) in some kind of sex thing like pedophilia or such. Should the Establishment/Deep State ever see the LP as more than ideological gadflys they will strike.

    There is only so much security in obscurity and the LP may be the cusp of perilous times. But your trust in the ideas your take ownership of. Prepare yourself for blowback and trust no authority or personality beyond the consistency of their actions with our well documented ideals

    And forget not, any jury of your peers can make mistakes.

  86. Andy

    D. Frank Robinson said: “It is useful the air these concerns, but if the Establishment really wanted to blow up the LP anytime in the last five decades they would have done it by instigating a false flag scandal such as, oh say, framing a prominent Libertarian(s) in some kind of sex thing like pedophilia or such. Should the Establishment/Deep State ever see the LP as more than ideological gadflys they will strike.”

    The existence of a Libertarian Party that is ineffective actually serves the establishment in a lot of ways. It gives those who are not happy with the government a place where they can go vent their frustrations without really accomplishing anything. It also gives the government a way to find out who all of the pro-freedom dissidents are.

    This does not mean that I think that the Libertarian Party is completely ineffective, but it is certainly not anywhere nearly as effective as it could be. This also does not mean that I think that everyone in the Libertarian Party is a plant. I think that it is more of a case of mostly good, well meaning people, with a few plants in a few key places who make sure that the party never becomes too successful, and who help the government monitor the real activists.

  87. That Caren Smith again

    “The existence of a Libertarian Party that is ineffective actually serves the establishment in a lot of ways. It gives those who are not happy with the government a place where they can go vent their frustrations without really accomplishing anything. It also gives the government a way to find out who all of the pro-freedom dissidents are”
    Exactly.
    The LP platform says it all: there are no realistic goals. What defines a world set free? Set free from who, what? In our life time? A business without a defined goal has no business being in business. The LP platform: “These specific policies are not our goal, however. Our goal is nothing more nor less than a world set free in our lifetime, and it is to this end that we take these stands.”

  88. That Caren Smith again

    “She’s one of the Invictus racist bunch down in Florida.”
    You mean the Invictus who was awarded the by the Southern Poverty Law center for fighting hatred and intolerance?

  89. paulie

    Cheers Caren.

    If you use the same screen name and email, your comments should appear in real time. If you change them up, they will have to be approved again.

    I have no such cognitive difficulties with the LP statement of principles as you say you do; I think the rest of the SoP answers your questions, or should. I’m not interested in getting into endless word-parsing to prove it. I think our goal is pretty well-defined. The stands we take in the rest of the platform also illustrate what direction we want to move things in for anyone who has difficulty in grasping the Statement of Principles.

    I could see, however, why someone seeking to neutralize the LP would want it wrapped up in endless parsing of existential questions.

    BTW this one is for you in case you missed it on the open thread:

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/april-2017-open-thread/#comment-1589008

  90. paulie

    You mean the Invictus who was awarded the by the Southern Poverty Law center for fighting hatred and intolerance?

    Hatred and intolerance against whom, the NSM? Red Ice Radio? Sunshine Fascists? Jack Donovan?

    Nice try.

  91. wredlich Post author

    Andy wrote: ” I think that it is more of a case of mostly good, well meaning people, with a few plants in a few key places who make sure that the party never becomes too successful, and who help the government monitor the real activists.”

    Amen! That’s exactly what I’ve been thinking from the beginning.

  92. Caren smith

    They didn’t distinguish so it must be for fighting against all hatred and intolerance. You can see his award in Alabama on the wall.

  93. wredlich Post author

    Invictus and the SPLC? First of all the SPLC is hardly a bastion of libertarian thought. They label Ron Paul and others as hate criminals.

    Second, this is what the SPLC says about Invictus:
    https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2016/candidates-president-other-offices-voice-extremist-views

    “Meanwhile, Augustus Sol Invictus, the Florida Libertarian Party’s candidate for U.S. Senate, admitted in October that he once “sacrificed an animal to the god of wilderness” and confirmed, “Yes, I drank the goat’s blood.”

    On the bright side, if there is one, Invictus, a neo-Pagan, is unlikely to mount a campaign to rid the country of religious minorities”

    Huge endorsement. Congrats.

  94. D. Frank Robinson

    Andy wrote in reply to my post, “The existence of a Libertarian Party that is ineffective actually serves the establishment in a lot of ways. It gives those who are not happy with the government a place where they can go vent their frustrations without really accomplishing anything. It also gives the government a way to find out who all of the pro-freedom dissidents are. ”

    “Find out who we are”? The LP has always been an open coalition of dissidents who proclaim proudly who the hell we are.

    Ineffective for the LP is usually defined in quantitative terms like vote numbers and candidates elected. That is a mistaken standard in this electoral context. Elections in the U S are institutional rigged to suppress the rise of competitors. The electoral has been deliberately legislated and judicial interpreted to entrench a ruling class. The documented proof compiled by Richard Winger and others is overwhelming.

    The strategy of the LP has been to seek relief in the courts from judges who are, by training, indoctrinated in the tradition of the Mugwump, Populists, Progressive reformers who transformed U S elections into a machine to dissipate dissent. The LP retains a large group of political climate deniers.

    The LP still exist despite a toxic institutional structure not because “it serves the establishment”. The LP is qualitative success.

    Is the LP actually accomplishing anything? It endures and that is an astounding accomplishment despite the turnover in members. The LP IS a powerful and persistent attractor of dissenters because it not a cult of personality or a utopian peddler of a one solution social cure all. Those one-shot organizations DO serve the establishment and are easily infiltrated, co-opted and dissolved. The LP has proven a tough nut for the establishment to crack. At most their efforts have serve only as temporary deflections.

    As for giving the establishment/Deep State an easy way to identify pro-freedom dissidents, the police state was efficient at that for at least two generation before the LP was founded. Yet it was founded, has grown and become a more viable competitor in a hostile culture and an ingeniously programmed pseudo-democratic governing bureaucracy.

    The LP will become even more disruptive to the establishment and attract more voters as it unmasks the fraudulence of electoral politics. IF it will focus on the system along with the policy issues we have always stressed in our platforms. For the LP to really challenge the cult of the omnipotent state is must challenge the cult of pseudo-democracy and the ritual vote – only then will the metrics of electoral “effectiveness” apply to the LP.

  95. paulie

    Invictus and the SPLC? First of all the SPLC is hardly a bastion of libertarian thought. They label Ron Paul and others as hate criminals.

    The SPLC is not even a bastion of liberal thought. Aside from their disturbing tendency to lump in libertarians as haters they are huge hypocrites. They have been sued for discrimination and harassment among their own staff in Montgomery. When I was in college at the University of Alabama I ran an anti-drug prohibition student group. My staff advisor was a leftwing law professor who knew the SPLC’s Morris Dees well, and did not think well of him at all. He said Dees is a con man, profiteer and hypocrite.

    On the bright side, if there is one, Invictus, a neo-Pagan, is unlikely to mount a campaign to rid the country of religious minorities

    Well, unless those religious minorities are Jews or Muslims. Allegedly Invictus on the Sunshine Fascists show was discussing plans for killing off Jews and Muslims with his fellow fascist panelists. He has made similar statements elsewhere.

  96. paulie

    And yes, Invictus is still a racist despite whatever award he got from the SPLC.

    Consider:

    Wang Tang-Fu

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/libertarians-united-against-fascism-to-the-cowardly-collaborators-of-the-libertarian-party-of-florida-and-a-call-to-action-against-them/#comment-1580638

    Can anyone address this point by point (not just nitpick the statement about Preston) and make a serious case that he is no longer a racist and fascist or that there is any doubt?

    In multiple contexts he advocates killing leftists, antifascists, LGBT people, Muslims and Jews. He frequently still appears on white nationalist, and explicitly racist and fascist podcasts and forums such as Sunshine Fascists, Daily Shoah, Red Ice, 3 Fourteen, etc etc.

    His brand new publication is the “Revolutionary Conservative” and you can see above what that means in my earlier comment. No chance Invictus would not know this since he is heavily influenced by a Revolutionary Conservative from that time, Carl Schmitt.

    He called Ezra Pound “my fellow American fascist” in November 2013. In Portland he exhorted his followers to stick together like the fasces; that was during his Senate campaign.

    He campaigned with the “Rock Against Communism” banner during his Senate campaign. Despite the name, RAC is all about RACism despite the euphemism. Look it up.

    Invictus confirms as of March 24, 2017 he still believes confirms as of March 24th that he believes the “strong and intelligent should breed – and the weak and stupid should not”. Allegedly, he no longer believes it is practical to make that government policy.

    He calls immigrants “parasites.”

    He supports ethnic cleansing of millions of people who are already in the US.

    He supports an East German style border wall.

    At his event in Harrisburg PA Dave Martel who was doing the event with him did the Sieg Heil.

    I mean it just goes on and on.

    How blind can some people be?

  97. Andy

    “He calls immigrants ‘parasites.'”

    Some immigrants are in fact parasites (a disturbingly high percent), and the welfare statistics clearly back this up (the numbers don’t lie).

    There are of course exceptions to this, but denying the statistics I stated above is denying reality.

  98. Andy

    More Than 90 Percent of Middle Eastern Refugees on Food Stamps

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/09/10/more-than-90-percent-of-middle-eastern-refugees-on-food-stamps/

    “More than 90 percent of recent refugees from Middle Eastern nations are on food stamps and nearly 70 percent receive cash assistance, according to government data.

    According to Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR) data highlighted by the immigration subcommittee staff of Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-AL) — chairman of the Subcommittee on Immigration and the National Interest — in FY 2013, 91.4 percent of Middle Eastern refugees (accepted to the U.S. between 2008-2013) received food stamps, 73.1 percent were on Medicaid or Refugee Medical Assistance and 68.3 percent were on cash welfare.

    Middle Eastern refugees used a number of other assistance programs at slightly lower rates. For example, 36.7 percent received Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), 32.1 percent received Supplemental Security Income (SSI), 19.7 percent lived in public housing, 17.3 percent were on General Assistance (GA), and 10.9 percent received Refugee Cash Assistance (RCA).

    The high welfare rates among Middle Eastern refugees comes as the Obama administration considers increasing the number of refugees — who are immediately eligible for public benefits — to the U.S., particularly Syrian refugees.

    ORR defines refugees and asylees from the “Middle East” as being from Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, and Yemen.

    Sessions’ staff notes that that from FY 2008 to FY 2013 the U.S. admitted 115,617 refugees from the Middle East and granted another 10,026 asylum. Additionally the U.S. granted green cards to 308,805 immigrants from those Middle Eastern countries identified by ORR as refugee nations, making them Lawful Permanent Residents (LPRs) eligible to apply for citizenship in five years and petition to have family members come to the U.S.

    As of 2013, Sessions’ staff notes, the top ten countries for refugee admission to the U.S. were Iraq, Burma, Bhutan, Somalia, Cuba, Iran, Congo, Sudan, Eritrea, and Ethiopia.

    ‘More broadly, concerning all immigration, the Migration Policy Institute notes that the U.S. has taken in ‘about 20 percent of the world’s international migrants, even as it represents less than 5 percent of the global population,’ and that 1 in 4 U.S. residents is now either an immigrant or born to immigrant parents,’ Sessions staff highlights, noting that the Census is projecting that another 14 million immigrants will come to the U.S. by 2025.”

  99. dL

    Illegal immigrant has lived on American welfare for 20 years!?!

    What does this have to w/ the topic thread? Not a damn thing…other than perhaps demonstrate that the Feds have no need to bother with sabotaging the LP with government plants.

  100. paulie

    What does this have to w/ the topic thread? Not a damn thing…other than perhaps demonstrate that the Feds have no need to bother with sabotaging the LP with government plants.

    Yep.

  101. paulie

    There are, or should be, obvious problems with using Breitbart and Jeff Sessions as your sources, and then twisting their selective statistics and shitty analysis further. The vast majority of immigrants who accept government assistance do so temporarily and go on to contribute far more to the regime coffers, as well as to the actual economy, than they take away. Hence the simultaneous whine by altreichers and xenophobes that “they’re taking our jerbs.” Undocumented immigrants especially are least likely to draw from government assistance and to pay more than they take out by a large margin. Immigrants, as a whole, start more businesses, work harder, get less welfare and commit less crime than native born USAmericans per capita.

    To reduce the worth of human beings to “parasites” because some of them temporarily get government assistance (and a vanishingly small percentage get it long term – notice that Andy has to resort to an anecdotal example, not a statistic, for the 20 year benchmark) is the very essence of racism and does indeed help demonstrate that Invictus is still a racist, along with all the other recent examples of his racism cited above. Context is important.

    Thanks for helping illustrate again, as if it was necessary, that Augustus Invictus and his racist bunch down in Florida are in fact racists, and quite plausibly government plants (as the racist bowel movement is crawling with them).

    Also as general reminders to Andy:

    1) Please don’t post the whole article with your links. The links are sufficient; a short excerpt at most.

    2) Have you added the blurbs to the Woods article yet?

  102. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Cleaning up my email alerts from this site, re-noticed this. Let me just say four words from what we’ve all discovered the last few weeks:

    “Ryan Ramsey” and “Augustus Invictus”.

    And four more, their stalking horse statist group including a number of naive libertarians –

    “Libertarian Party Veterans Caucus”. https://www.facebook.com/groups/224257921287852/

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *