Debate on debate parameters

From a previous discussion:

Tom Knapp writes:

OK, so now we’re going from a couple of discrete “this guy spams every thread with the same subject” things to “Paulie decides what each thread of discussion will be about?”

I (Paulie) reply:

No, not at all.

There are literally thousands of threads at IPR that are wide open.

Why is it that we can’t have a few for specific purposes, such as getting work done?

If you would like to put up a thread to debate whether this is a bad idea, please go for it.

Tom:

Why is it that it only became that after 80+ messages when you suddenly decided you didn’t like the direction the discussion was taking?

I was suspicious of getting onto the Milnes/Ogle slipper slope to begin with. I thought it would take us longer to roll to the [..] bottom of that slope.

Paulie:

Thomas, posted way back at

@ 14 “I don’t know why there are people here who think there is any kind of debate about whether this should happen. It’s happening. If you don’t think it’s the best use of your time, let someone else figure out their own priorities. ”

However, since there are people who apparently feel it is a good use of their time to debate it, what is wrong with a separate debate thread?

I’m all for that, but I also want to have one that is a dedicated work thread, which is what I have been trying to do all along with this one.

I’m not trying to shut anyone up.

7700 plus threads that are open for discussion on IPR, and quite a few people, including you, can add more new ones ….including one to debate whether this project is worthwhile or not.

I’m asking for one tiny corner to try to get something done. That’s a problem?

I am not going to the bottom of any slope, and I had suspicions about the slippery slope myself. However, it was getting to the point where it was about impossible to have a conversation.

Would you like to turn off akismet spam filtering too while you are at it?

Tom:

Nope.

I’m just not going to be at it any more. Have a nice day.

Paulie:

OK, how about this then: I take back what I said. Talk about any subject on any thread you want, and someone else can post them too.

Does that work better for everyone?

I didn’t think I was asking for much by having one thread out of over 7,700 that is specifically for getting work done, especially when it is so easy to put up a new one.

But I guess I was asking for too much, so maybe I should stop putting up threads…would that be better? I am willing to do that if that is what people wish.

I would like input from the readers on these questions. Bear in mind that, even if a lot of people ask me to stay, I can still leave voluntarily, or Trent and his boss could choose to kick me off at any time.

If the sentiment is predominant that I should leave, I’m willing to do so.

Please have your say in the comments.

-Paulie

330 thoughts on “Debate on debate parameters

  1. Green Party Conservative

    Look, we’d LOVE to have Paulie join us over at Independent Green Party News.

    http://www.votejoinrun.us/news.html

    We’ll give him the keys to the place, and let him run the show.

    Without Paulie Independent Political Report will slow down….way down…

    Paulie is a work horse.

    Paulie come on over to Independent Green Party News.

    We’d love to have you.

    You could do for us, what Olbermann will no doubt do for Current TV. Current will rise, rise, rise…

    As will any blog with the worker Paulie.

    this one is a no brainer…

  2. paulie Post author

    @ACP 6, Thank you.

    Part of my mission here is to enjoy, but part is to serve. Several people had been complaining lately that I was too heavy handed. I have to consider their viewpoint.

    When they were the same people that numerous other people complain about and call trolls, I wasn’t TOO concerned, although I have to admit I was annoyed.

    When Tom Knapp says it, that’s a different story. I respect Tom a great deal and he is the one remaining co-founder of IPR that still spends any time here. So at that point, I have to check and see whether I am in fact being too controlling.

    That’s not for me to decide, at least, not without input. Not in my judgment, anyway.

    I’m big on free speech, too, but I don’t want to have every conversation turn into a sewer.

    And, every once in a while, I would like to have threads devoted to a specific purpose.

    When there are thousands of other threads where conversations can meander, am I being the controlling one if I want a small handful where they can’t?

    Or is it others who are at that point trying to impinge on part of my freedom?

    Again: the conversation they want can still take place…and it can still take place on IPR.

    On any of numerous numbers of threads.

  3. Thomas L. Knapp

    I don’t think there’s any question that Paulie should stay. Without him there’s no IPR.

    Me getting irritated and being an asshole doesn’t raise that question, nor does it rate its own thread.

  4. paulie Post author

    Tom,

    Actually, I do think the question rated its own thread.

    Several people had been questioning my judgment and accusing me of being too heavy handed lately. Until you, they were not people I respected.

    You joining that particular chorus led me to wonder whether there was actually something to it.

    I have to check myself sometimes. Reader feedback helps me with that.

    And you are right. Steering discussions can definitely become a slippery slope. I don’t want to go down that slope.

    I agree with Matt @ 14-15. It has to be very minimal.

    At this point, I don’t think I’ll go anywhere, at least not now.

    But, I think there should be a place to discuss whether we are being too controlling of the discussion or not controlling enough, so this may as well be it.

    And to the extent that I have taken it upon myself to do some of that decisionmaking, as well as to the extent that some people have complained about the decisions I have made, this is also a place to register and discuss the merits of such complaints.

    That’s just my opinion.

  5. Thomas M. Sipos

    I think Paulie should stay.

    But I also think people should be able to post whatever they want on any thread.

    Ogle and Milnes are loons, but one can scroll through and ignore their Parliament/PLAS cut & paste jobs.

  6. Fun K. Chicken

    Paulie should get his fat ass off the computer, get a real job that actually pays him real money, get some other hobbies, maybe have real sex with real women, exercise, read books, and in general get a life.

    Spending 100% of every waking moment at IPR, taking breaks only to eat, excrete and watch internet porn, can’t possibly be healthy or fulfilling.

  7. Matt Cholko

    I’ve changed my mind. I think Paulie should go. We seem to agree almost all of the time, so there MUST be something seriously wrong with the guy.

  8. paulie Post author

    @ 19 But I also think people should be able to post whatever they want on any thread.

    Ogle and Milnes are loons, but one can scroll through and ignore their Parliament/PLAS cut & paste jobs.

    It drives too many other people away, and I would not be motivated to keep doing this in such a comment environment.

    Paulie should get his fat ass off the computer, get a real job that actually pays him real money, get some other hobbies, maybe have real sex with real women, exercise, read books, and in general get a life.

    Hmmm, @ 20 makes a good point.

    travellingcircus at gmail.com if anyone feels like paypaling me some money, especially if you enjoy what I do here.

    And if any women feel like possibly being my sugar mama the number is 415-690-6352.

    You can also call that number to discuss any petition work that you need done and have money to pay for.

    And it is very true I have an addictive personality and right now IPR is my addiction of the moment. I do need to diversify my focus, but that is just how my mind works. It’s been a lot of other things in the past, and if it’s not IPR it will be something else.

    @ 22 How does lonelygirl15 feel about this situation?

    No idea. I suppose you could ask her.

  9. Pingback: Happy V-day, and 1,000 days of IPR | Independent Political Report

  10. Thomas L. Knapp

    Paulie @18,

    OK, since you respect my opinion, here it is:

    I was hesitant about the dedicated threads/take that shit over there thing, but understand it and think it has worked for the three instances it’s been really used in: PLAS, US Parliament, and Petitioner Bitch Session.

    What those three things have in common are that their fans will bring them up, and belabor them, in nearly every post regardless of whether or not they’re on topic.

    If you post a story about a satellite probe to Saturn:

    Bob Milnes will assert that a Libertarian/Green fusion ticket could win the presidency there if he could just get laid, and then complain incessantly if nobody rises to the bait, or if someone does rise to the bait.

    James Ogle will assert that the probe needs to carry at least 100 astronauts so that they can rank each other on ballots and elect each other to made-up positions after a saving throw versus orc venom, and then explain himself four different ways, none of which make any goddamn sense, if asked what he’s talking about.

    Andy will assert that the petitioners on Saturn are all mercenaries, and then he’ll get in a fight with Fincher about something.

    What those things don’t have in common with other threads are that on those other threads, no matter how far off-topic things get, the particular off-topicedness probably won’t reproduce itself on other, even more unrelated, threads.

    Also, in the instant case (Hinkle/Hancock/Ruwart doing Egypt outreach), it’s not really even off-topic to argue about whether or not Hancock walks on water, Ruwart’s shit stinks or Hinkle is the risen messiah. Rude, maybe, but not off-topic.

    So, my opinion is that separate threads and exile notices are worthwhile when there’s someone who cares about nothing except X and insists on talking about X in every goddamn thread. Other than that, I’d prefer to see off-topic discussions be allowed to exhaust themselves.

    But that’s just me.

  11. paulie Post author

    Hmmm, maybe the stupid arguing on there will keep the thread alive. Dunno. I’m drunk enough now, I’ll get some sleep or something.

  12. Robert Milnes

    Very interesting.
    All I ask is that anyone be able to comment on any thread at any time on any topic.
    Like Sipos says on 19.
    You know, like when IPR originally started.
    You know, before paulie established his little dictatorship.
    This reminds me of the Star Trek episode where the Federation envoy became dictator of the chaotic planet rationalizing it as it was from a historical perspective(Third Reich) a most efficient system of government.
    paulie has established himself dictator which everyone, including me, tolerates because he is a dedicated libertarian workhorse.
    I have written to IPR complaining about paulie but specifically not asking any action be taken against him. Just the forced dedicated thread policy.
    I would like to be able to start & be allowed train of thought streams. The **** thread is fading in archives.
    I note that he has been a supporter of Ron Paul & has talked up Gary Johnson, both counterrevolutionaries.
    I also note that it seemed to me Ogle offered to stop the repetitive part of his comments just before getting segregated.
    I would like to offer to curtail posting at IPR if I can get some help setting up a blog on my website.

  13. whatever

    Just log on to blogspot.com an they will get you all set up.

    Consider it an entrance exam /IQ test — if you can’t figure how how to set up an account; you’re to stupid to run the federal government and you should really really give up.

  14. Erik G.

    I don’t think it’s asking much for one thread to be about ‘work,’ but at the same time I don’t think it’s asking much to create a place off-site to have such a thread.

    However, I also think that the deletion of comments that seem to be intentional heckling isn’t the end of the world. Or comments that have gone far away from the stated purpose for a thread from a site moderator. This is a private site after all.

    Do I want to see an influx of comments being deleted? No. But I don’t think that would happen either. Some people take the notion of precedence too far. I trust Paulie to be fair and even in his moderation of the site, and have yet to see evidence as to why I shouldn’t feel that way.

    Also: I believe Paulie should stay.

  15. Thomas M. Sipos

    @ 31

    I already posted to Milnes, about Blogspot.com, sometime last year.

    Milnes was complaining about not being able to afford a web site, etc., and I posted about Blogspot, and even linked their “open a new account” page to make it real easy for Milnes.

    But apparently, it was still too taxing for him.

  16. Robert Capozzi

    That Paulie is willing to walk away is testament to why he should stay. It’s an attitude I admire, and makes him ideal for the role he’s filling. He is able to listen to others viewpoints and he actually understands them. He presents his perspective, sometimes forcefully, but is adult enough to recognize that he is not the be all and end all of all wisdom.

    More than once has he kept me on point, and for that I am grateful.

    His editorial judgment seems strong to me, aggregating interesting bits from around the LM. He even created these open threads, a brilliant move to vent frustrations. (I feel a song coming up!)

  17. Kimberly Wilder

    Who started saying that Paulie should go?

    Is this a manifestation of Paulie feeling under-appreciated?

    Of course, we need Paulie. He does a lot of the work here.

    Is there stuff in here that should have been shifted to a conversation about specific strategies, likes and dislikes, etc.?

  18. langa

    Paulie, I can’t tell you whether to stay or go, but my advice would be to do whatever is in your own self-interest. Sure, most people here (including me) think you do a good job, and the site would probably suffer without you, but that doesn’t mean you should feel obligated to stay, especially if doing so makes you miserable. On the other hand, if you enjoy it, by all means you should stay.

    As for the question of censorship, I basically agree with TK’s views @ 26. Micromanagement of the threads is a poor idea, but so is allowing every thread to devolve into the same 2 or 3 arguments.

  19. George Phillies

    Part of the problem is that the number of contributors is small, and the ones who go on all the time at great length can sometimes tend to drive other people out of the conversation.

  20. LibertarianGirl

    and George I really hope yur not referring to Paulie , has never driven anyone out otf the conversation , generally , there is no conversation till he gets one going

  21. paulie Post author

    So, my opinion is that separate threads and exile notices are worthwhile when there’s someone who cares about nothing except X and insists on talking about X in every goddamn thread. Other than that, I’d prefer to see off-topic discussions be allowed to exhaust themselves.

    But that’s just me

    Actually that’s me too.

    I just wanted to amend that slightly to have a very small – maybe even just one – thread that would stay on topic for once.

    I don’t see what’s so fascist about that when there are so many other threads other aspects of the conversation can move to, and when a new one can be started any time it becomes necessary or appropriate.

  22. LibertarianGirl

    lets all face it , when P goes on hiatus or doesnt have internet , its happened … IPR effin sucks , we all know it , it would suck again if he were to leave so stop being whiny babies.

    I for one am thrilled if maybe i dont have to read dozens of Milnes PLAS posts w/in EVERY story

  23. paulie Post author

    All I ask is that anyone be able to comment on any thread at any time on any topic.
    Like Sipos says on 19.
    You know, like when IPR originally started.
    You know, before paulie established his little dictatorship.

    Dictatorship….LOL, good one

    You want a site where you can post literally anything on any thread?

    Try http://www.crazyforliberty.com/

    Here is what IPR conversations would look like if you could post anything on any thread. Open up some of the articles and check out the comments.

    Just to take one example….

    http://crazyforliberty.com/2010/11/01/chuck-donovan-states-i-am-running-against-two-democrats.aspx#Comment

    Of course, I would stop posting new articles then, and I’m sure some of the other IPR writers would too. There would be a lot fewer articles for you all to comment on. You might get an average of 10 new articles a week or a month instead of 10 new articles a day. And instead of 200 or so comments a day, you could either have maybe about 40 – most of them from Milnes, Ogle and Lake – Or maybe a hundred or more advertisement comments a day, like on crazyfor liberty, at which point even Milnes and Ogle might go away as well, although who knows.

    So, all the people in this thread asking me to stay would not get their way, but Milnes would get his. Who is being the dictatorial one here again?

    But hey, Milnes is not asking for much here.

    I would like to offer to curtail posting at IPR if I can get some help setting up a blog on my website.

    https://en.wordpress.com/signup/

    It’s the easiest thing in the world. Ten year olds with an average IQ do it all the time.

    I think you can figure it out, Milnes. I have that amount of faith in your abilities.

  24. paulie Post author

    I don’t think it’s asking much for one thread to be about ‘work,’ but at the same time I don’t think it’s asking much to create a place off-site to have such a thread.

    Yeah, maybe we’ll do that instead.

    Do I want to see an influx of comments being deleted? No.

    Neither do I.

  25. paulie Post author

    Who started saying that Paulie should go?

    Me. And I said maybe.

    Is this a manifestation of Paulie feeling under-appreciated?

    Partially. I’m using it for some light-impact blegging (blegging = blogging+begging for money). travellingcircus at gmail.com or 415-690-6352 – operator is standing by.
    And, it’s not likely that it will get me laid, since our commenters are generally men or married women, but hey, I might as well throw that out there too just in case there are any single women reading 😛

    Partially, it was several people who were complaining that I was controlling the discussion too much. When someone who is not an insane person/troll made that same point, I got a little worried and wanted to see what other people thought. I can’t rely solely on my own judgment for that. Feedback is important.

    Partially, it is the question of what extent if any we have active moderation, which is always an ongoing question, so we may as well have a thread dedicated to discussing it.


    Of course, we need Paulie. He does a lot of the work here.

    Thank you. BTW, did I mention I could use some money? 🙂

    Is there stuff in here that should have been shifted to a conversation about specific strategies, likes and dislikes, etc.?

    This is as good a place as any, although you can always start a new one as well.

  26. NewFederalist

    I believe it goes without saying that paulie does a fine job. Without some policing this site becomes difficult to enjoy because so many threads are hijacked. I admire paulie’s ability to get hammered and still be objective. I am not sure how often I would be called an “asshole” or worse before I would just give it up. Good on ya, paulie!

  27. paulie Post author

    RC @ 35 Thank you

    L @ 37

    I can’t tell you whether to stay or go, but my advice would be to do whatever is in your own self-interest. Sure, most people here (including me) think you do a good job, and the site would probably suffer without you, but that doesn’t mean you should feel obligated to stay, especially if doing so makes you miserable. On the other hand, if you enjoy it, by all means you should stay.

    As for the question of censorship, I basically agree with TK’s views @ 26. Micromanagement of the threads is a poor idea, but so is allowing every thread to devolve into the same 2 or 3 arguments.

    Agreed and agreed. I’m not obligated, and a lot of times I do enjoy it, but not always. I don’t enjoy watching every attempt at a decent conversation turn into a public sewer, and I don’t enjoy even the tiniest attempts at keeping things on track being turned into me being a fascist dictator.

    And, I’m definitely way too addicted to it. Fun K Chicken @20 unfortunately is not too far from the truth. I have been struggling with addictive behavior patterns my whole life. They manifest themselves in many different ways.

  28. paulie Post author

    I admire paulie’s ability to get hammered and still be objective.

    Yes, I did get pretty hammered last night and yes I am hung over.

    C’est la vie….

    ROLF

  29. Jimmy Clifton

    I don’t think I have posted anything to which Paulie responded to where he wasn’t somewhat negative or critical.

    That’s okay with me and I strongly support and encourage Paulie to stay, post and post more often.

  30. Brian

    Stay.

    But how about have this blog be something other than a mouthpiece for the the LP (with Root’s commentary thrown in every couple of days)?

  31. Old habits don't die

    @20 I can only imagine how many more complaints there are or were or would like to to be that is not shown.

    Frankly I don’t care whether Paulie leave or stay. I don’t think this blog would be lost, because
    there is always someone else out there to step in. Who knows maybe someone better.

    I know some of you have said your piece but I don’t see him really listening, he seems to have already proven that.

    There was a posting of good thought that was removed, because Paulie decided to remove it, and it did pertain to the article, as well as making a statement to him. I asked him to put it back and he refused.

    Right now he is looking for reassurance from his friends. And Paulie even puts up with comments that even surpass what I would even say.

  32. paulie Post author

    I don’t think I have posted anything to which Paulie responded to where he wasn’t somewhat negative or critical.

    Dunno. I’ve responded to plenty of people in ways that are not negative or critical. I suppose I could go through all your past comments and see if there are counter-examples in your particular case, but even I have better things to do than that.

    That’s okay with me and I strongly support and encourage Paulie to stay, post and post more often.

    Posting more often would be literally impossible. I’m doing everything I can already.

  33. paulie Post author

    But how about have this blog be something other than a mouthpiece for the the LP (with Root’s commentary thrown in every couple of days)?

    I’m doing a lot to find news from other parties and have asked people from other parties to write here – some said OK, some said no, some signed up but haven’t posted much.

    Libertarian Party posts are 3229/7731 = 41.77% of IPR articles right now, so obviously it’s not just a mouthpiece for the LP.

    Why are there so many commentaries from Wayne? Because he writes a lot of them and sends them to us. I wish more people who are on the LNC, other parties’ committees, and LP and other alt party and independent candidates for office would do the same thing.

    contact.ipr@gmail.com

    Send ’em in if you have a justifiable alt-party connection, such as candidate, party officer, etc.

  34. paulie Post author

    @20 I can only imagine how many more complaints there are or were or would like to to be that is not shown.

    Fire away folks, here’s your chance. Don’t be shy. Step right up. If you have felt inhibited about telling me what an asshole I am, don’t feel inhibited on this thread. Tell me what you really think.

    Frankly I don’t care whether Paulie leave or stay. I don’t think this blog would be lost, because there is always someone else out there to step in. Who knows maybe someone better.

    I’ve signed up over a dozen other people to write here. Any one of them is free to post as often as I do. I’ve asked many others that have not agreed to do it.

    When I go away, which I do sometimes, the pace of new articles and comments slows down a lot, so it’s not that people are not posting just because I am posting.

    I know some of you have said your piece but I don’t see him really listening

    What am I not listening to? I’m listening to all comments, the good as well as the bad. If I only listened to the people who have negative comments, I would be ignoring all the ones who have positive comments. Wouldn’t want to do that either.

    There was a posting of good thought that was removed, because Paulie decided to remove it, and it did pertain to the article, as well as making a statement to him. I asked him to put it back and he refused.

    Your comment has been permanently deleted.

    And what I asked was for one thread out of over 7,700 to be used as a place for those people who agree that a certain project is worthwhile to discuss the details of moving it forward. Everyone else has plenty of other threads on IPR to gripe on, and if that’s not enough, we can put up a new one for you.

    I still have not heard a good reason why that is not good enough for you.

    Right now he is looking for reassurance from his friends.

    Not really. I’m looking for an honest assessment of whether we have too much, too little or about right moderation, and whether my role in that has been correct. I am also looking to decide if I am wasting my time here. A big part of me is telling me that I am, but another part of me is telling me that there’s something worthwhile that we are doing here.

    And Paulie even puts up with comments that even surpass what I would even say.

    Consider it my perk for all the work I do here.

    You are more than free and welcome to devote hours every day bringing news and commentary to a community of users you play a large role in building, with no pay, and hours more promoting it at other places around the web, asking additional people to post articles here, cleaning out the spam filter, etc, etc.

    We even provide you with outhouse threads, such as this one. I guess it’s too much for a few people to ask that they not use every room in the house, including the dinner table, for that purpose, but why does everyone else have to put up with their shit?

    It’s not like someone is stopping you from building your own internet community.

  35. whatever

    There is a difference between too stupid, too depressed, too stressed, too under duress.

    I’m gonna stick with too stupid. Just shut up and do it.

    Try walking a mile in my shoes-if you can.

    Can you? Maybe that’s part of the problem. When did you last walk a mile?

  36. @59

    I notice Paulie didn’t accuse me for your post. LOL.

    @57
    and if that’s not enough, we can put up a new one for you.

    Thats ok Paulie, I am not special enough. LOL.

  37. paulie Post author

    I notice Paulie didn’t accuse me for your post. LOL.

    That’s because I know when it’s you and when it’s not you.

    Thats ok Paulie, I am not special enough.

    Oh, but you are special. Very, very special.

    And a horse is a horse, of course, of course.

  38. NewFederalist

    “Chalk another one in the plus column.”

    What is the current tally for those of us keeping score at home?

  39. StevenWilson

    I believe that Paulie should stay. When I visit here, I only comment when I think I can add something. But reading each post is like reading spam, when the post is identical to another post by the same person, but the topic of the article differs.

    Each person has an objective to visiting this site. I find information about the LP and GP helpful. I also like reading other people’s thoughts on topics.

    If Paulie filters out the spam, then each post gets the time each visitor deserves. Imagine standing at a podium and exercising your right to free speech, and during your presentation, another voice is heard over your own. And continues to do so over the duration of your time discussing that topic.

    Spam is free speech, but it is free speech on toliet paper. Each post has opinion supported by passion and intellect. And if that is missing or varied to the point that the reader has forgotten what the topic was, then propaganda is here.

    IPR is a product which offers a service. Every person here knows what that service is, and if IPR does not maintain that service, it cannot maintain itself in the market place.

  40. Your right on one thing

    I wouldn’t said stay. I said, it didn’t matter to me one way or the other really.

  41. Robert Milnes

    @55 LP posts =41.77%.
    Does that include posts about Root, Barr, Ron Paul, Gary Johnson et al? Because they are not libertarians. & I’m not the only one who says so. George.

  42. Robert Milnes

    @42, dozens of Milnes comments in EVERY post.
    Enormous exaggeration.
    Does eceryone have selective memory-all the threads that were loaded with paulie>< lg comments to puke for?

  43. paulie Post author

    @ 70 That is based on the classification assigned to articles by IPR.

    Root and Barr are manifestly Libertarian party members, regardless of whether you think they are ideologically libertarians – and readers should of course note that you are not a Libertarian Party member and don’t have a libertarian ideology, nor do you claim that you do.

    Ron Paul is also a Libertarian Party member, even though he runs as a Republican now. He is of interest to IPR readers because of his Libertarian connection. We aren’t exactly interested in having a lot of news about Mitch Daniels and Herman Cain here.

    Even so, we don’t follow Ron Paul nearly as closely as we do actual alt parties and current alt party candidates.

    Gary Johnson is a former Libertarian Party member, and a lot of people believe he still has libertarian views. You are free to disagree, but IPR is not Milnes’ personal litter box.

    Milnes can set up his own personal litter box, and cover whatever he wants to cover in whatever way he wants to cover it, at

    https://en.wordpress.com/signup/

    The point of the 42% statistic was that over 58% of our articles are about independent candidates and other alt parties besides Libertarian, so it is incorrect for Brian to say that we only (or largely only) cover Libertarians.

  44. Robert Milnes

    @61, yeah I walk. I can, thank god.I walked all this winter & last. record snowfalls.
    Recently I managed to get one of my 2 old Econolines registered.
    Charging system bad. right front wheel making terrible noises. I think it is going to fall off soon.
    So, shall we list all the problems my 2 old vans have?
    Etc.

  45. Kevin Knedler

    Paulie. STAY.
    Just have a drink before you read the posts, or do a “Cheech and Chong” thang first.
    Note: I saw my first Cheech and Chong concert in Columbus, OHio last Friday. I continue to try to evolve, but I am not sure I didn’t slip backwards on that mess. LOL

  46. paulie Post author

    paulie loves wayne. Wayne loves paulie.

    How did I know you would say that?

    Funny, there are lots of things Wayne and I disagree on, but I really respect him for working hard.

    Which I can’t really say for Milnes.

  47. Robert Milnes

    various posts by paulie asking for money, sex, notebook, whatever etc.
    We both tried that here many times. Don’t ask for much orhave great expectations or hold your breath.
    Except if you are Ron Paul. Then lemming loser libs line up like suckers.
    & IIRC, I took a lot of crap from paulie mostly about using IPR & campaignto get a girlfriend-which was actually not true.
    I actually considered sending him a notebook. I wound up not doing it because he kept sticking it to me.
    Also I was embarassed that it was such a tech zip whereas paulie actually needed a top of the line laptop.
    Somebody else send him what he needs. I can’t afford it.

  48. paulie Post author

    Milnes,

    Does eceryone have selective memory-all the threads that were loaded with paulie>< lg comments to puke for?

    That’s one of the reasons I am motivated to keep doing this. If you don’t like it, you can do what you tell everyone else to do with your comments – scroll past ’em.

    Kevin,

    Just have a drink before you read the posts

    I had a few too many last night.

    Hence, this post and the one after it:

    https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2011/02/happy-v-day-and-1000-days-of-ipr/

    You can pretty much tell I was wasted for that one, LOL

    or do a ?Cheech and Chong? thang first.

    I love their comedy, and I used to be a big toker, but I just don’t enjoy pot anymore. I’m still a big legalization advocate, but personally, weed is just not for me.

    The illegal drugs I do like, such as cocaine, are too expensive (now that I’m not dealing), too addictive, and too harmful to the body and mind in the long run, plus there’s that whole jail thing that I just don’t enjoy at all.

    These days I pretty much stick with booze and caffeine, and I’ve cut waaaay back on the booze from when I was in my teens and twenties.

  49. Robert Milnes

    I was LP member.
    GP also.
    Needless to say they both sucked.
    I’m running Independent.
    So IPR should actually be catering to me.
    Not giving me a paulie jam at every opportunity.

  50. paulie Post author

    I’m running Independent.
    So IPR should actually be catering to me.

    When you get on the ballot somewhere, send us the news and we’ll post it. Until then, you are a laugh at best and really more of a nuisance than a laugh most of the time.

  51. Robert Milnes

    @79, I do. I scroll past usparliamant, paulie videos, Capozzi/Knapp debates etc.
    Sipos seems able/willing to also.
    Why are my comments such a problem?
    Oh, I don’t EVOL Ron Paul like a zombie.
    Or Root.
    I dare to criticize paulie.
    etc.
    Nevermind

  52. paulie Post author

    various posts by paulie asking for money, sex, notebook, whatever etc.
    We both tried that here many times.

    Yep, the difference being, a few people have actually sent me some money, and a mini-laptop (unfortunately it had some problems).

    I took a lot of crap from paulie mostly about using IPR & campaignto get a girlfriend-

    That was actually pretty hilarious. You and Ogle…only difference being, Ogle likes his women to be on top.

    I actually considered sending him a notebook. I wound up not doing it because he kept sticking it to me.

    Thanks anyway.

  53. Robert Milnes

    @84, the notebook is in a cabinet gathering dust.
    Maybe people figured my too little too late inheritance was good enough.
    Not. It is mostly gone.
    Paid some bills.
    Bought a blow-up doll.
    Bought a voo-doo doll I named pawwey.
    Stick needles in it every day.

  54. John Jay Myers

    Paulie is the voice of reason on this blog, he is also the most informed person I know on the goings on in the party, and has no problem showing you exactly where you can find more information in regards to the “goings on” I spoke of.

    Paulie makes IPR great as opposed to good. He always tries to be fair, and for some reason even responds to Milnes, who noone else can stand.

    So that makes him charitable.

    Then as to the case for him as a poster, he is one of the most articulate, educated, and informed persons (in regards to our issues) to post here.

    So everyone pitch in some money to pay some unsuspecting lady to be his girlfriend, and let’s move on.

  55. Robert Milnes

    How many other Independent candidates do you screw with, paulie?
    How many of them are disabled, unemployed, broke, depressed, mentally ill, no significant other, not tech savvy, have no car or clunker or 2, little or no campaign contributions, few or no volunteers or staff, not on many or any ballots or otherwise not perfect or up to your standards?
    Shall we go to politics1 & check them all out?
    & ridicule the ones who deserve it?
    Could be hilarious.

  56. paulie Post author

    JJM, thank you!

    So everyone pitch in some money to pay some unsuspecting lady to be his girlfriend, and let’s move on.

    Great suggestion 🙂

    Milnes,

    How many other Independent candidates

    I will classify you as a candidate if and when you get on some ballot somewhere.

    As for other disabled, unemployed, broke, depressed, mentally ill, no significant other, not tech savvy, no non-campaign contributions, no volunteers or staff for their non-campaign non-candidates who think they are candidates:

    How many of them take a dump in full public view in IPR comments multiple times each and every single day?

  57. Robert Milnes

    I will classify you as a candidate…
    That’s your problem.
    You, you will…, you classify, you decide, your opinion, etc.
    politics1 doesn’t do that to list Independents.
    You are better than politics1?

  58. paulie Post author

    Go comment at politics1 then.

    IPR does what we do, they do what they do.

    Who’s better? Who’s worse?

    Vote with your feet, or fingers, as the case might be.

  59. Robert Milnes

    @88, dump?
    Just because you don’t understand it, doesn’t make it trash.
    I consider your support of Ron Paul & WAR & talking up Gary Johnson to be dumping in IPR.
    Every single day?
    No. Not even you. Although it seems like it.

  60. Fun K. Chicken

    Paulie and Millness,

    OK, you are both losers, so you should both shut up, get a life, go away and don’t come back.

    There. That settles it.

    This thread is now officially closed.

  61. C. Al Currier

    Paulie, I haven’t heard any compaints about you from Daniel Imperato, so I’d say it’s OK for you to stay.

  62. paulie Post author

    @92, @95 I’ll take that into consideration.

    I’ll agree that the thread has probably outlived its usefulness, if it ever had any.

    I seriously doubt this will do any good, but I feel a need to try anyway.

    Milnes says he is

    …,depressed, mentally ill,…

    Is that two different categories?

    Robert, do you believe you are mentally ill aside from just being depressed, as many other people seem to think?

    If you do believe you are mentally ill aside from just being depressed, are you getting any treatment?

  63. Porn Again Christian

    Debate Parameters: If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

    Should Paulie Stay: This reminds me of when Bob Dole got asked if he wears boxers or briefs. He said “depends”.

  64. David Colborne

    For what little it may be worth, I’m happy with your work here, paulie. I usually do more lurking than commenting unless I really feel the occasion calls for it, but I’m glad you do what you do and do it well.

  65. paulie Post author

    So everyone pitch in some money to pay some unsuspecting lady to be his girlfriend, and let’s move on.

    On second thought…just send me the money direct:

  66. pete healey

    Paulie, don’t go! You’re on my “send money to” list right behind Richard Winger, and he’s first on my list. Great video, never heard of the “Grenade” song but the girlfriend clued me in when I showed it to her.

  67. paulie Post author

    This one was bad enough. I’ll probably take out the whole “paulie” part of the headline, now that the remaining booze from last night has pretty much worked its way out of my system.

  68. Matt Cholko

    Milnes – If you would say something positive once in a while, and stop acting so damn bitter, I’d bet the calls for you to STFU would drop by 50% or more.

    You would also do well to avoid making consecutive comments consisting of nothing more than a few short phrases, or single words. See your comments at 82 and 83 on this thread for an example.

    Finally, though I feel like there has been a little bit less of it lately, you should hold the PLAS talk to a minimum on threads to which it is not relevant.

    Of course, this is just my opinion, but I’m pretty damn sure following this advice would go a long way towards gaining you some respect.

  69. Medical problems

    Your right on one thing, it depends on the depression. There are clinical depression which requires help with medication and then there are temporary depression from example losing a dog, or something close to you and eventually time works with you.

    If a person is clinical depressed, there are associated disorders usually. To treat these conditions is very complicated. As anyone have watch TV and seen all those pharmaceutical drugs advertise as well as the side affect that goes with it. Sometimes, a person should also consider a Holistic Practitioner. There has been known ailments that have been helped where a regular MD has not been able to.

    I have seen wonderful things with hyperbaric chambers, and acu-scope which is a natural way to help with sciatic nerves. They have used the acu-scope for animals as well as on humans for sport injury.

    Maybe if Milnes is able to, maybe a nice easy going cat might be therapeutic for him, if he is mentally able to handle it.

  70. Maybe a post outside the box

    Paulie, maybe you might consider throwing a subject outside the box, other than always politic to lighten things up. Like maybe people could share experience with great things in medicine. Or. Maybe share foods recipes. Or maybe someone having a great time somewhere and share how much it cost and what someone else to experience. Just to break the some old thing. Just saying.

  71. NewFederalist

    How much and what type of booze did you drink last night, paulie? (That is an outside the box post, isn’t it?)

  72. paulie Post author

    Paulie, maybe you might consider throwing a subject outside the box, other than always politic to lighten things up.

    At least one person emailed me already to complain that we are going too far outside the box too often as it is. Just goes to show no matter what you do someone will not like it.

    How much and what type of booze did you drink last night, paulie?

    A 750 ml bottle of Morgan Creek Vineyards Blush, several coffee and Baileys, one coffee and Baileys with Hennessy Cognac, and several shots of Grey Goose vodka. Let’s just say it was more than necessary.

  73. @111 Yuk

    There are better ways to relieve stress.
    Working out at a health-club for one. That would do good for weight, stress and mental stamina.
    For which I am sure you could benefit by.

  74. paulie Post author

    Yeah, I know.

    I’ve been having asthma breathing problems, which seem to be not so bad as long as I stay inside but they get worse when I go anywhere, so I’ve pretty much been a shut-in ever since I got back from Maryland last month. Sad but true.

  75. against my better judgment

    I won’t give the info on here, but I might be able to refer you to a holistic practitioner who is excellence. But it would be on private email for this, if your interested.

  76. To Paulie

    what email do you want me to use. I don’t have your email. Unless you have mine than contact me. I will explain on PM.

  77. whatever

    #26 is of course correct. Milnes has needed his own cage around here for years. The newer Parliament guy seems to be a similar case.

    (Haven’t noticed as much a problem with the petitioner thing, but I haven’t really been paying too close attention.)

  78. NewFederalist

    Do I sense a chill? Hopefully the message will be received and more responsible posting will ensue.

  79. George Phillies

    The most recent decision: Sensible. We had bid a bit under $4000 for IPR, and been turned down, but I doubt I would have offered as much if I were to bid again.

  80. HALLELUJAH

    hal·le·lu·jah (interjection)
    Def: of HALLELUJAH
    —used to express praise, joy, or thanks
    Synonyms: glory (or glory be), ha (or hah), hooray, hey, hot dog, huzzah, wahoo ,whee, whoopee, yahoo, yippee
    (–Webster’s)
    Feb 19, 2011 at 5:09 pm #30

  81. NewFederalist

    George @ #121- Are you saying the recent action has made IPR more or less valuable? Your comment could be interpreted either way.

  82. Rev. Alberto Medvedev

    July 22, 2011

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:

    CONTACT:
    Rev Alberto Medvedev
    Church of Xenu
    (973) 304-0808
    ChurchofXenu@hotmail.com

    Rev Alberto Medvedev Demands Release of Political Prisoner Bob Milnes

    (Tinton Falls, NJ, 7/22/11) The Rev Alberto Medvedev officially called upon the Independent Political Report to release Robert Milnes, a political prisoner whom has been banned from commenting and now suffers an uncertain future.

    “Mr. Milnes was simply seeking advice on how to run a viable presidential campaign,” said Medvedev. “How the Independent Political Report could consider banning such a patriot is mind-boggling.”

    Rev. Medvedev told the single reporter who attended his press conference, a thirteen year old homeless boy, that Milnes is a “top notch fellow” and that the IPR staff are a “top notch bunch of folks.”

    “The IPR staff is a top notch bunch of folks,” said Medvedev. “They are just being controlled by the anti-Milnes faction of the Libertarian Party. Once the Milnes faction, and his supporters, get word of his censorship, I wouldn’t be surprised if they buy out IPR and assimilate it into the Milnes for President campaign.”

    Medvedev said he plans on conacting Sean Penn and Jello Biafra to request their assistance in calling for the release of Bob Milnes, who is currently being held at an undisclosed location by the IPR staff.

    “Milnes 2012,” said Medvedev. “He is the only third party candidate who can beat the biggins”

    # # #

  83. paulie Post author

    kinda sorta. Friend I am traveling with recently had computer fixed, but obviously he needs to use it too, and we don’t bring it out in the field while we’re working. So, I get a few minutes in the morning and a few in the evening. Trying to contain my addictive tendencies as best I can.

  84. Thane Eichenauer

    After a brief review of Robert Milnes and those who support his inclusion in the IPR commenting community in the thread above I still don’t think the benefits (few) would outweigh the detriments to having him included.
    As for James Ogle should he write, speak or act in some memorable fashion I imagine someone somewhere might just cover him and his ideas. I can’t say I can recall an occasion where his comments were anything but a repetitive cut and paste of his US Parliament idea.

  85. paulie Post author

    And that’s while they will both stay gone, unless folks decide that it would be better if I left instead.

  86. Steve M

    If paulie stays or goes here at IPR I could care less…. he has no desire to make this a respectable new site which would require following journalistic standards.

    But Paulie should definitely resign from the LNC. His history of campaign petition fraud, his support of personal attacks on other party officials and members, his past business practices are each individually good reasons for him not be seen as an authoritative representative of the party.

  87. Jill Pyeatt

    Krzysztof, we asked Steve to come here, and he did. Now we know a major source of Steve’s complaint. Paulie may not come around the next few days to discuss this, but I’ve always found him to be open about his past. I’ve known him for several years, and I do believe the deeds you’ve mentioned are way in Paulie’s past.

  88. Steve M

    Funny at least some of paulie’s issues were from just about the same time period as one of the inquisition subjects here on IPR.

  89. Robert Capozzi

    P, you make IPR interesting. Sometimes you do get on your high horse a bit when it comes to staying on topic, but I always take it as helpful feedback, and I certainly admit that I have more than once steered the conversation to off-topic matters. (You have too, iirc.)

    While I remain fascinated by the flaws (as I see them) in R/R-style L-ism and dysfunctional in-fighting, I find it generally helpful that you do your Sheriff Andy Taylor routine.

  90. Jill Pyeatt

    I’m not sure what Paulie resigning from the LNC has to do with his volunteer work at IPR, though, Steve. In my opinion, he contibutes quite a bit to our blog and it wouldn’t be the same without him. Also, he was selected to take the Alternate At-Large spot by people who knew him well. It seems to me it’s up to them to discuss whether he should resign or not, not someone with who isn’t even from his region.

  91. Jill Pyeatt

    I also wonder, Steve, if you are confusing the purpose of a blog with a news outlet. Blogs generally have a leaning toward the right or left or toward some specialty. People interested in that subject go to the blog to discuss it. Readers know that the people who post article at IPR have opinions, yet choose to go there to discuss those issues. A news site may have a place for comments, but the main purpose isn’t for discussion.

    However, our goal as writers is to post a straight article, without an opinion from the writer in the article. We may slip up once in a while, but in most cases we’re successful. We leave our opinions for the comment section.

    This has worked well for years. I understand you’d like for us to do things differently, Steve, but we’ve discussed reasons we won’t do things “your way”. So why do you keep coming here and saying the same things? I’m sure there are blogs out there you might like better and, if not, start your own. We don’t need to keep going over this same stuff.

  92. Steve M

    First on if I am confusing this web site as News or Blog, I am not the only one…

    This is the Tittle of this site…

    Independent Political Report: Third Party News

    Do you seriously think that only members from a particular region have the right to discuss who is or isn’t acceptable as a regional representative?

    Does this apply to state party officials? Should only people from that state discuss who is or who isn’t acceptable?

  93. Steve M

    Jill, how you (IPR) chooses to do things is your right…. but I find it incredulous that you (IPR) complain that you aren’t treated as a credible news source by places such as google news and wikipedia.

    That rather then trying to understand why wikipedia is removing IPR as references is not some sort of vendetta but an attempt to improve the reliability of wikipedia by having clear cut standards for what can be referenced.

    For example…. IPR “fact checks” in the comment section, ie after you publish an article. Well this clearly goes against wikipedia’s policy of not referencing the comments in blogs because they aren’t fact checked.

    Yes, I would like IPR to rise to the standard of being a news site…. third party politics badly needs it…. and I understand that isn’t Paulie’s method. Paulie has a history of taking short cuts instead of doing the hard work. Its really to bad for him. Huffington Post for example demonstrated that a blog/news site can be well run and can turn a profit for its founders.

  94. William Saturn

    Why is SteveM being treated with such hostility? He has commented here since 2008 and I do not see anything in his comment history suggesting he is a troll. Even if he is a troll, the reaction of Krzysztof is inappropriate and not reflective of the collegial atmosphere we should foster here.

    I cannot comment on Paulie’s removal of some of SteveM’s posts because I do not know what SteveM wrote on them. However, I am leery of one having the unchecked authority to remove posts without any record of what was removed. That goes for all of us with that authority, not just Paulie.

  95. Jill Pyeatt

    WS @ 142: I agree Krzysztof was out of line. We asked Steve to come to this thread to discuss this, and he should not have been blasted for it.

    SM @ 141: “IPR “fact checks” in the comment section, ie after you publish an article.” I don’t understand what what you mean by that. Do you have examples of that?

  96. Thomas L. Knapp

    “rather then trying to understand why wikipedia is removing IPR as references is not some sort of vendetta”

    Actually, that’s exactly what it appears to be. When I checked the Wikipedia internal discussion, not so much as a single reference to IPR in a single Wikipeida article was alleged to be inaccurate. The whole thing was entirely a function of an editor getting a burr up his ass about IPR for unspecified reasons.

  97. William Saturn

    Everything that happened at Wikipedia is attributable to an e-mail I sent. I explained it all at https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2013/03/wikipedia-attacks-iprs-credibility-as-a-news-source/#comment-821529.

    Currently, there is a great purge of third party individuals going on at Wikipedia. Bill Still was deleted, and now Kat Swift, Kent Mesplay, Barry Hess, and Jim Duensing all are on the verge of being deleted. The Boston Tea Party was also nominated for deletion, but it looks as though it will remain. I wish someone (with more time than me) would do an investigation of this and report what’s going on.

  98. Steve M

    Jill,

    Comment 13 from https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2013/04/brett-pojunis-slate-for-nevada-lp-executive-committee-releases-document-about-campaign/

    “We absolutely do fact checking. Most of it is by the process of having facts come out through the comment sections. When we cite someone?s else?s claims about facts we make it clear that they are being quoted; quoting someone does not mean we agree with their version of the facts. I routinely quote people and opinions I don?t agree with. In the case of the news articles we quoted, they mentioned facts such as Kurt Brackob?s conviction and prison time. We don?t have a budget to sit around and contact every person named in every news story. Even news organizations that have people making a living doing what they do frequently just rely on what other news organizations report. Much less blogs like us made up of volunteers. You are barking up the wrong tree. “

  99. Jill Pyeatt

    SM @ 146: I see you found some words from Paulie to justify your accusation. It is not, however, our practice to do fact-chcking for articles in comments. It certainly isn’t mine. I do cite my sources and give credit to original writers. In more than two years, I’ve only used an anonymous source once, but it was someone I trusted was telling me the truth.

  100. Steve M

    William, I read through a few of the wikipedia recommended for deletions that you listed….

    It looks to me like they boil down to for people are they significant individuals and do there exist reliable reference sources.

    The onus really is on having a reliable reference source and that is the argument for IPR having a policy on editorial comment, fact checking and all the other requirements that it takes to become a reliable reference source.

    This gets right back to having the contributors follow the professional journalism ethics code.

    Good journalism here would create reliable reference sources usable by google news and wikipedia and other sources.

    Or don’t and the consequence is that wikipedia will follow there policies in order to generate their product.

  101. Mike Kane

    If each troll on here instead made one phone call to a new inquiry , I think the LP would be a lot stronger.

  102. Steve M

    Yep Mike or as I have said before… here I fully understand and agree with Paulie… that takes effort and costs money…. it gets back to having users make contributions….

  103. Thomas L. Knapp

    @148,

    “Good journalism here would create reliable reference sources usable by google news and wikipedia and other sources.”

    The proof is in the pudding. Not a single case of an IPR reference being inaccurate. IPR is a reliable reference source. The reason it’s being deleted from Wikipedia is that someone has an ax to grind (a lot of that goes on at Wikipedia, not just with IPR or in politics).

  104. Steve M

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable_sources

    Thomas, the point is that the higher caliber and more professional a source is the harder it is for a wikipedia editor to justify removing it.

    Most articles here at IPR are repeats of other articles. So not primary sources. Of those that are how many of them did the contributor attempt to talk to the relevant people or organizations before publishing and allow them their input?

    How many articles have been corrected or retracted?

    From the wiki documentation….

    Questionable sources

    “Questionable sources are those that have a poor reputation for checking the facts, lack meaningful editorial oversight, or have an apparent conflict of interest.[7] Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely considered by other sources to be extremist or promotional, or that rely heavily on rumor and personal opinion. Questionable sources should only be used as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves; see below. They are not suitable sources for contentious claims about others. ”

    let me highlight one phrase

    ” lack meaningful editorial oversight”

  105. Jill Pyeatt

    In more than two years, the only article I’ve retracted was a duplicate of something posted earlier. I don’t remember correcting any article, only updating them.

    “how many of them did the contributor attempt to talk to the relevant people or organizations before publishing and allow them their input?”

    I would say that I have in every case, except the Nevada article that I posted a couple weeks ago.The reason I didn’t on that one is that I know my source had tried unsuccessfully to get a response for at least a couple weeks prior to sending the info to me.

  106. Steve M

    William,

    That editor at wikipedia must have anticipated your article by 2 years.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AReliable_sources%2FNoticeboard%2FArchive_76#Independent_Political_Report

    Independent Political Report

    Is the Independent Political Report a reliable source for news about minor political parties in the United States? Its website says it “is dedicated to covering America’s third parties and independent candidates, and providing a forum for the intelligent discussion thereof. IPR has been linked to by major sites like Politico, The Washington Post, Politics1, The American Spectator, Reason Magazine, and The American Conservative.” TFD (talk) 14:43, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

    Not RS. Articles do not appear to be signed. Editorial control does not appear to be in effect. Articles are primarily reprints of other news sources verbatim. Signed articles by accepted specialists would be okay. Unsigned articles do not appear to have any indication of oversight, verification, or editorial control. Fifelfoo (talk) 14:53, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

    Per above, depends on who wrote it and/or if it also appeared in more reliable source. Case by case basis cause has good stuff and has unreliable tripe. CarolMooreDC (talk) 22:41, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

    It doesn’t look like it’s reliable in and of itself, though it could be used to locate sources that are.–Cúchullain t/c 21:13, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

  107. Jill Pyeatt

    Thanks, Thomas. I believe that we do a great job of covering third party politics, and I’m not going to get too upset over things beyond my control. I think our site is much better now than it was in 2012, anyway.

    Whether Wikipedia likes us or not, I know that many people use our site for current happenings for third parties. Of course we can always do better, but admitting that certainly isn’t saying that we’re substandard.

  108. William Saturn

    Just to clarify, I am referring to the discussion @155, which precipitated the “Large Scale Cleanup” page. I nominated this cleanup page for deletion (linked @156) to end the purge of IPR from Wikipedia articles. I was unable to do so, but did slow the effort.

  109. wredlich

    I try to stay hands-off, but it seems this discussion is more about IPR itself than about politics or third parties.

    I’m the owner, so if someone has concerns about how IPR is run then please contact me directly (wredlich@gmail.com). If you have suggestions about how to make it better, I’m all ears. I’d love to get us in Google News but we’re a long way from there. Not too concerned about what Wikipedia does.

    As I see it, IPR is mostly not a source of original news. Many of the posts are essentially from other news sources, and/or press releases.

    The real value of IPR is more in the discussions in the comments about the stories, rather than in the stories themselves. The site has served as a community for those who want to discuss third party news.

    Any criticism of Paulie on this site should be tempered by the recognition that he has been the most reliable contributor.

  110. Sam Kress

    wikipedia

    “Not RS. Articles do not appear to be signed. ”

    Not true, IPR articles are signed.

    “Editorial control does not appear to be in effect.”

    That’s not true either. Articles are not pre-edited by anyone other than the authors before publication, but I’ve seen some taken down or changed after the fact. This is normal practice for blogs, and it even happens with regular newspapers, except that regular newspapers print corrections in a tiny corner where few people ever see them.

    “Articles are primarily reprints of other news sources verbatim. ”

    This is likewise true in major newspapers; that is, they might syndicate content from Associated Press, various opinion columnists who are syndicated, syndicated cartoons, and so on. IPR also publishes some original articles as well.

    “Signed articles by accepted specialists would be okay. ”

    Accepted by whom?

    “Unsigned articles”

    False, see above.

    ” do not appear to have any indication of oversight, verification, or editorial control”

    Also false.

  111. Sane IPR Observer

    Thanks for weighing in, Warren. I don’t lnow if Paulie really is giving up on us. Hopefully he’ll take a little break and then come back.

  112. From Der Sidelines

    OK, who let the neo-nazi white supremacist monkeys out of the cages again?

  113. Sam Kress

    “Yes, I would like IPR to rise to the standard of being a news site…. third party politics badly needs it…. and I understand that isn’t Paulie’s method. ”

    Well now that he is gone, that should solve the problem.

    “Paulie has a history of taking short cuts instead of doing the hard work. Its really to bad for him.”

    Luckily he won’t be posting at IPR any longer so the quality of the site will now improve. Right?

    BTW What is Steve M going to do to help? Contribute money, time in writing the kinds of articles he thinks should appear here, or both? Start his own blog? Hire someone else to do the job right? Be satisfied that he achieved his objective? Or just whine and complain some more?

  114. Jill Pyeatt

    Yes, it now appears that Steve M had an ulterior motive.

    Hopefully Paulie just needs some time . I’ll call him next week to see if he really wants to stay gone. I don’t have the time to contibute much more than I’m doing now, although I believe I was also part of the original complaint. If there’s a whole new group of people to come in as contributors, I guess now’s the time.

  115. Jill Pyeatt

    Enough of the racism, please. I still have the ability to delete comments, and will soon if they don’t stop.

    Can we all act like grown-ups now?

  116. Sam Kress

    Yes, it now appears that Steve M had an ulterior motive.

    Steve M. may be a troll and an asswipe, but there is no indication that he has anything to do with the anti-semitic postings here (which may or may not have something to do with attempts to remove IPR as a source on wikipedia, which also may have something to do with racists who don’t like being called out on what they believe). There’s also no indication that he is not involved with that, but I would not jump to the conclusion that he has anything to do with it.

    Steve M. and the racists may have completely different problems with IPR and he may be just opportunistically using their attacks on IPR to try to shore up his point. Or not.

  117. Be Rational

    There is nothing wrong with having moderators to remove personal attacks and racist and obscene comments. This is often necessary on discussion sites and seems to be necessary here. The MODS may have to operate under pseudonyms to avoid being personally identified as the bad guys. Posters who continually spam the site, post racist or foul comments, or make personal attacks should be banned.

    Paulie is one of the best on here. Hopefully he’ll be back and hopefully Mr. Redlich will add MODS to oversee this site.

  118. Jill Pyeatt

    I don’t think Steve M. has anything to do with these racist comments. They pop up from time to time. By “ulterior motive” I mean he had issues with Paulie. However, he had something to say, and he was allowed to say it. Now I hope we can all be grown-ups and get back to our normal lives.

  119. Steve M

    I think that Paulie had issues with Steve M long before Steve M had issues with Paulie.

    Jill, I have issues with nasty anonymous attack pieces that don’t bother to get the other side of the story. My problem is more with your article then anything else….Though Paulie’s calling other activists names and making insulting statements about them didn’t put him on my good side.

    Without a doubt the act of implying that some one else is an ass wipe says more about the unimaginative character saying it then it does about their target.

    With no maybe needed.

    As far as helping fund better journalism on this site… I am in favor of it, I have made similar donations to other sites…. but I wont carry the load on my own…

  120. wredlich

    @168 I removed the comments due to concerns about libel and for other reasons.

    As for the accusation that I treat Paulie favorably because he’s Jewish … I did not know that. I thought he was Italian.

    Now, since we’ve had a particularly bad outbreak of inappropriate comments, it’s time to talk about what we can do to prevent this in the future.

    Or rather, what I will do to prevent this in the future.

    I’ve been thinking about converting the comments to Disqus. I’m sure you’ve all seen Disqus on other websites. I think it’s easier to prevent trolls with Disqus, and it has the advantage of effectively promoting IPR.

    Some of you may be aware that I was the victim of a particularly vicious libel in 2010, and am currently suing the perpetrators. I do not want IPR to be complicit in defaming others, for both moral and legal reasons.

    Please let me know what you think of this idea, or if you have other suggestions about how to address trolls and defamatory commenting.

    On a related note, a new version of WordPress is coming out in May. I will probably hire a programmer to update the site soon and will also probably change to a new theme (the new 2013 theme most likely).

    My plan is to have that programmer work with key people who use the site, including Paulie and a few others. If anyone would like to be a part of that process, please e-mail me – wredlich@gmail.com.

  121. wredlich

    @173
    “As far as helping fund better journalism on this site… I am in favor of it, I have made similar donations to other sites”

    Not sure what you mean by better. I would love to have more original reporting of stories, rather than republishing stories and press releases. But I think that would be rather costly and would not generate near enough revenue to cover that cost.

    If you have something else in mind, or suggestions about how to get things like this done, please let me know. -Warren

  122. Thomas L. Knapp

    @173,

    Disqus is a great commenting/discussion system, and its recent updates — “related stories” stuff — would probably boost IPR’s traffic.

    As far as Paulie is concerned, I hope he stays. And I’m willing to chip in to buy him an athletic cup.

  123. William Saturn

    @176

    If you say so. But then again, perhaps you’re speaking from the wrong perspective.

  124. Rod Stern

    Milnes would be a better addition to the site, if you have to choose one or the other. And Ogle too!

  125. Rod Stern

    Because you can’t make people who can’t stand each other be around each other if they refuse to go along with it, and Paulie has said he will not post at or read IPR if Milnes and Ogle are allowed to comment here. But since he has left now, you should bring Milnes and Ogle back. They added more to the site anyway.

  126. Rod Stern

    I don’t know about “Rod Stern,” but Rod Stern (sans quote marks) believes it is high time that Milnes and Ogle should be restored and allowed to comment freely on any and all threads, and that they should never have been banned in the first place.

  127. Jill Pyeatt

    I explained the best I know how in the Open Thread thread. Thank you for moving your comments here. I won’t delete them. If someone wishes to discuss Paulie on IPR, please do so here.

  128. paulie Post author

    I am open to being banned. If the consensus ever becomes to bring back Ogle and Milnes I will consider myself to be permanently banned.

  129. paulie Post author

    BTW I have said that for years now, and it hasn’t changed no matter how many times people bring it up, nor is it going to.

    And if anyone wants to ban me in addition to Ogle and Milnes, make your case, and if most people agree go ahead and ban me.

  130. paulie Post author

    Here’s the debate parameters thread. Why do people insist on having the discussion that this thread is designed for in open thread? I am approaching the frustration level that makes my participation in IPR in any way impossible.

  131. Jill Pyeatt

    EG @ 193: I will not delete your comments here, I’ve told you. We’re just trying to keep our other threads free from being constantly hijacked by trolls.

    So, troll away here to your heart’s content–

  132. Jill Pyeatt

    Actually, if your comments are only racist or anti-semitic, they might be taken down. Almost all of the writers who weighed in on the topic agreed that they should be, and there are over 20 people authorized to write/delete comments. So, my above comment was only for me.

  133. Deran

    Why is this doofus “Mel Rocker” or any of the other fake names they hide behind allowed to post such racist trash? “Mel Rocker” you are loser trash that has nothing to say and all you do is post racist trash and add nothing to the discussion. Get your meds adjusted and go post on. A shiny penny sayes you are one of the trolls that was banned, why not admit it? Why don’t you just go to stormfront? No one cares what you say, no matter how many times you post it under any number of anonymous names. No one cares, you contribute nothing.

  134. Deran

    Mel Rocker et al. Why don’t you just admit you are one of the trolls that was banned and have done with? Why be so cowardly?

  135. Deran

    Comrade Rocker, if you aren’t Robert Milnes or James Ogle, I’ll eat my hat, if I wore one. Why not just coem out of the closet? Or, even better, why not post something that contributes to a discussion? Why? Because you have nothing to contribute. As long as you post your spam on this thread, and skip everything else, I suppose you are fairly harmless.

  136. Jill Pyeatt

    Thanks for weighing in, Deran. I agree that Mr. Presley/Rocker is worthless. Maybe this is cathartic for him, and he’ll smack his wife around a little less over the weekend because he got some frustration out here.

  137. Deran

    Indeed, Jill. You, Paulie, Krzysztof, sometimes Kimberly Wilde, all do great work making sure interesting things are posted to IPR. And I thank you all.

    My hat is still on this being Milnes or Ogle. There’s not enough creepy sexual talk for it to be Grundaman.

  138. Andy

    Mel Rocker said: “As far as spamming, I don’t spam, unlike Frankel and Jacobs whose comments are all in one way or another directly or indirectly about gaining attention and thus clients for their shady petitioning business.”

    This is a completely absurd statement.

    “And as far as contributing nothing or being a loser how do you know? Since you don’t know anything about me you would have no idea how much I contribute or how I do in various areas of my life. ”

    How about posting under your real name, coward?

  139. Deran

    Comrade Rocker, lol. I just like to make sure you don’t feel left out!

    As for contributing, wether as Ogle or Milnes, I meant contribute to the discussion on IPR. All you do is follow the lead of comrades Ogle and Milnes obsessive compulsions.

    “Deran”, google it, comrade.

  140. Jill Pyeatt

    I wonder if MR has noticed yet that his revelations about Paulie and Andy are not shaking up the readers of IPR? In other words, no one cares wht he has to say. It’s been three hours.

  141. Thomas L. Knapp

    MR @ 206,

    “Frankel and Jacobs whose comments are all in one way or another directly or indirectly about gaining attention and thus clients for their shady petitioning business.”

    That may be the dumbest claim I’ve heard all week, and I’ve heard some doozies.

    Both of them discuss numerous subjects other than their petitioning business — and often when they DO discuss petitioning, they do so in ways that are more likely to cost them clients than to gain them clients.

  142. Jill Pyeatt

    MR, the only reason I’m reading these is to make sure they don’t get too racist or out of line. I care about the site, not you or what you say. I know both Paulie and Andy well, and what you’re saying so far is just crap. And good luck with getting to be IPR’s longest thread. That was 1,000 comments plus. It ain’t gonna happen, I promise you.

  143. Thomas L. Knapp

    EG @ 216,

    “But that does not change the fact that their intention is to advertise a commercial enterprise and that this is 100% of the reason why they are here.”

    I suppose that could be a fact.

    But it would be very difficult to prove, and seems to be contradicted by quite a bit of the available evidence.

    For example, Paulie’s candid discussions of his criminal past — right here at IPR — and Andy’s … idiosyncratic … approach to anyone who disagrees with him on any thing at any time for any reason (they are all either fools or feds, and were probably on the crew that accompanied George W. Bush into the basement of WTC 1 to detonate the charges!) would seem to me to be more likely to send potential clients running than to attract them.

  144. Thomas L. Knapp

    EG @ 217,

    “So again, is your ‘assurance’ that I can’t take this thread to thousands of comments based on your knowledge that your promise of free speech was a false lure, or was it in fact just trying to reassure yourself and others?”

    It’s probably based on her having taken notice of the fact that you’re a crashing bore whose “pressing questions” are considered “pressing” by no one except yourself.

  145. Andy

    “Jill Pyeatt // May 10, 2013 at 3:47 pm

    I wonder if MR has noticed yet that his revelations about Paulie and Andy are not shaking up the readers of IPR?”

    This person’s “revelations” are nothing more than stories that they made up. I’m thinking that this individual may be Eric Dondero posting under a fake name. Whoever it is, they are full of shit, and they are a coward as well.

  146. Jill Pyeatt

    MR @ 217: I say that about not exceeding 1000 comments because I have a general clue of what IPR readers want to read and talk about. Duh.

  147. Jill Pyeatt

    I haven’t deleted anything that you’ve written today, BTW, MR–err, EG. I’m hoping you’ll post your big expose, then realize that no one cares. So, go ahead, get it all out of your system. The sooner you do that, the sooner you’ll go away.

  148. Catholic Trotskyist

    Deran, I know you don’t like me, because I was such an immature troll a few years ago, but I really don’t think Milnes or Ogle are making these comments. Milnes is definitely not a white nationalists; in fact the PLAS strategy is opposed to those kinds of ideas. I have met Ogle in person, and he is also not a white nationalist. A few white nationalists may have tried to take advantage of him through his US Parliament project, but the whole point of that project is to bring all people together regardless of background, race or ideology. Now, as for Elvis, you’ve been posting under various names for a long time, and are probably some sort of petitioning rival. You stated in a previous comment that Paulie killed his wife. If you had actual documentation for this, that would be the first thing you would post, and no distraction would lead you away from that. All of the petitioning controversy is nothing compared to something that horrible. This leads me to think that you’re lying about all of it, since you keep delaying writing about the most obviously damaging revelation, if it existed.

  149. Catholic Trotskyist

    And the comment at 224 is probably the most awful comment I’ve ever read here on IPR, or perhaps any other message board.

  150. Jill Pyeatt

    I agree it isn’t either Milnes or Ogle. I know them both (Milnes through emails, Ogles in person) and this is definitely not the style of either one. No, this is just some person who needs to spread some hate. I’ve never known Milnes or Ogle to do either.

  151. Catholic Trotskyist

    Sorry, I meant the comment at 209 is the most awful comment I’ve ever read here. Ironically I typed the number of that actual last comment!

  152. Jill Pyeatt

    I actually think I know who is is now. the writing style gives it away.

  153. Andy

    “Jill Pyeatt // May 10, 2013 at 6:19 pm

    I actually think I know who is is now. the writing style gives it away.”

    Well please do us all a favor by letting us know.

  154. Jill Pyeatt

    Remember Hypocrisy Police and the ridiculous wailing about Oregon events from two years ago? The thread was a couple months ago, and I’ve forgotten what the thread was or I’d look it up. The writing style is similar.

  155. Andy

    “Thomas L. Knapp // May 10, 2013 at 6:43 pm

    I don’t think it’s Dondero. Might be partially his sentiments, but not his writing style. Mike Nelson/disinter, perhaps?”

    Interesting guess. I don’t know what Mike Nelson’s problem would be with me. I’ve never even met him, nor did I ever engage in any “flame wars” with him when he posted on this site and its “predecessors.” If it is him, it could be that he has some kind of beef against Paul, and he’s lumping me in for associating with him, or it could be that it is somebody else all together.

  156. Andy

    “Jill Pyeatt // May 10, 2013 at 6:45 pm

    Remember Hyposcrisy Police and the ridiculous wailing about Oregon events from two years ago? The thread was a couple months ago, and I’ve forgotten what the thread was or I’d look it up. The writing style is similar.”

    This does not name a name. Who do you think it is, specifically (as in a real name)?

  157. Andy

    “One way is by shaking down clients. This was in evidence with Virgil Goode, who has refused to pay them extra money that they were never owed from last year, whom they have been maligning ever since.”

    This is funny, because 3 people who are on the Constitution Party’s National Committee and one person who has done a lot of work for the Constitution Party’s National Committee have admitted to me that they KNOW that I’m owed this money, and they have all told me that they intend to pay when they raise the money. I am not the only person to have been ripped off by Virgil Goode, as he is reported to have ripped people off on at least two other petition drives, and one of the individuals who he ripped off is actually on the Constitution Party’s National Committee.

  158. Andy

    “We know that Frankel frequently brags about his heavy alcohol use even to this day, and also that he has had a gambling problem that is allegedly in the past –”

    I’ve known Paul for several years and I’ve never seen or heard of him gambling in the time that I’ve known him. He does not consume nearly as much alcohol as is being implied here either.

  159. Andy

    “We know that their associate Jake Witmer has a history of repeatedly stealing rental cars, at least as late as last year.”

    Jake has never stolen any cars, rental or otherwise. The real story involves a couple of rental cars turned in late, for which he paid late fees. Wow, talk about stories getting twisted around.

    “and that Witmer and Jacobs have both been in jail as well.’

    I was in jail one time, on charges that were completely bogus, which stemmed from being illegally arrested for gathering petition signatures in front of a library in Maryland, and the CHARGES WERE THROWN OUT. I never even had to appear in court because the prosecuting attorney knew that they did not have a legitimate case against me. I’d still like to go back and file a law suit against those cops and the librarian.

    I’m not aware of Jake ever having gone to jail for anything that was a legitimate reason for one to be jailed.

    “. We know that multiple people, including a Republican candidate for the legislature, saw Jacobs and Frankel engaged in collecting signatures and then having alcoholics falsely sign off as petitioners who witnessed the signatures being collected. ”

    Another story which has been twisted and distorted beyond reality.

    “We know that numerous past and present clients have verified that all of these so called petitioners rarely ever petition – their production sucks as does the validity of their work. We know that they can often be seen posting all over the internet, so when do they actually have time to petition? We know that they survive somehow, so there must be some other ways they get money besides the petition business.”

    This is complete bull. My production and validity are usually among the highest, and I can provide numerous references to back this up.

  160. Andy

    “Knapp, Pyeatt and Jacobs most likely have each earned one or more amateur detective fail regarding my identity; however, I won’t help you all guess who I am through the process of elimination, so let’s just say most likely, not certainly. ”

    I posted a lot of guessing a while back about this troll. One of them had the initials MH. If it is MH, they are probably posting from a place that starts with the letter W.

  161. Andy

    “If it is MH, they are probably posting from a place that starts with the letter W.”

    Or perhaps posting from a place that starts with the letters M or K, or both.

  162. Andy

    “John Presley // May 10, 2013 at 9:41 pm

    It’s funny of all the things I wrote how many Jacobs does NOT deny.”

    That’s because I did not feel like sitting around and responding to every piece of bullshit that came flying out of your ass and onto this thread.

    Everything that this clown says is either something which they are distorting, twisting around, or blowing out of proportion, or they are outright fabricating.

  163. Andy

    “If you keep guessing you could go through the whole alphabet. And you very well may at this rate. If you ever stumble on it by accident, I’m not going to tell you, so keep guessing A from HOLE. I won’t tell you if you stumbled on it yet either, but let’s just say it’s not very likely.”

    I’m thinking that there is a good chance that I’ve already figured out who it is.

  164. Andy

    “Why are we supposed to believe you? Got any proof? All I’ve seen is Peter Gemma saying serious people have no reason to take you seriously, and that was public and was never retracted. ”

    That was a while ago. Ask Nicholas Sumbles. I spoke to him recently. Also, ask Allison Potter. I think that Peter Gemma may have a different view now.

  165. Andy

    “Prove that any of that is true.”

    Ask Nicholas Sumbles and Darryl Bonner. They both have similar stories of being ripped off by Virgil Goode.

    “And maybe some other scumbag petitioners trying to run shakedown scams against a respected former member of Congress.”

    LOL!

  166. Andy

    “Yes, we should believe you here too, right? Never mind that Frankel has bragged how many times right here about his drinking binges? And his ‘past’ gambling addiction problems?”

    The majority of these stories from him about heavy drinking and gambling are from when he was in his teens and early 20’s. I’ve known Paul since 2004 and I’ve never once seen him gamble. I’ve even been in placeswith him where gambling is legal like Las Vegas and I have not seen him gamble. He generally does not drink that much alcohol either. He’s more of a social drinker who will have a beer or two or three if he’s in a social setting where alcohol is being consumed, and sometimes he may have a beer or two or three, mostly if he’s winding down in the evening before he goes to sleep, but there are a lot of times when he does not drink any alcohol. You are making him out to be some kind of raging alcoholic this is far from reality.

  167. Andy

    “raging alcoholic this is far from reality.”

    Should read, and this far from reality.

  168. Andy

    “Or maybe it was BC posted from D. Or YZ from A. Or JZ from BK. It could even be SP from WC! LOL. ”

    Well, it’s quite a coincidence how these posts started popping up during a time when both Paul and I were dealing with MH, and I know that MH is a “computer geek” and hacker who, by their own admission likes to harrass people online and engage in flame wars. I also remember something that was said when I was on a phone conversation in MH’s presence that then popped up in one of the early troll posts on this forum where Paul and I got attacked. This is why I consider MH to be a top suspect.

  169. Andy

    “And of course he can’t stay away from this site.”

    I know that there are some times where Paul is in fact away from this site. I know for a fact that there have been times where he was either too busy to post here, or he did not have internet access and was unable to post here.

  170. Andy

    “Well from everything I heard it was more than a couple, and charges were either pressed or came close to being pressed.”

    Funny how stories get blown out of proportion. I know the incident to which you are referring, and there was never any stolen car. The car was actually on my credit card, as in this particular incident to which I’m referring, I rented the car for Jake (for which he did pay me back). The truth of the matter is that some crazy asshole at a rinky dink car rental place in Colorado tried to screw us over. The scumbag basically engaged in credit card fraud by trying to over charge me for the car. I filed a complaint with my credit card company, they did an investigation, they found out that I was right, and then the guy had to back down or else he was going to lose the ability to accept a major credit card company, and possibly have fraud charges put on him. The guy did file a report with the police as a part of his scam, and it was complete BS, because he knew where the car was the entire time, plus he had my credit card. Ask Nicholas Sarwark about it as Jake met with him in Colorado, and he can attest to the fact that the car was returned and there was nothing wrong with it (unless of course Nicholas Sarwark is the troll, but I’m hoping he would not do something like this).

    The crazy asshole in Colorado did not bother to tell the police that the car had been returned, nor did he bother to tell them that he knew where the car was the entire time, that the car was on my credit card, or that he and his wife had both agreed that it was OK to take the car out of state (this was the first thing that we talked about when we rented the car from them).

    Several weeks later, Jake was petitioning in Illinois for the Libertarian Party at a college campus and some asshole campus cop came up and started questioning him. They asked to see his ID and then they ran it and came up with this report of a “stolen” car in Colorado, a car which had been RETURNED in tact weeks prior to this, and which had in fact been paid for on my credit card. Jake tried to explain this to them, but the f’ing moron cops would not listen to him or bother to check on anything he said, and they hand cuffed him and he ended up spending the night in jail. The next day they got the word from Colorado that the report about the “stolen” car was false, and that the car had in fact been returned weeks prior to this and had been paid for, so they let him go. He spent the night in jail over a charge which was completely false. Eeewwwwppps!

    There was another incident where he returned a car late and paid a late fee. Big deal. People do it all the time. That’s why they have late fees.

  171. Andy

    “You were trespassing, and resisted a police order to leave immediately, then resisted arrest.”

    No, I was engaging in a first amendment activity of gathering petition signatures to place the Libertarian Party and the Green Party back on the ballot in Maryland. This was a completely legal activity, and the scumbag pig cops and the librarian violated my rights, as well as the rights of everyone in both the Libertarian Party and the Green Party, as well as the rights of the voters of Maryland by attempting to deprive them of choices of candidates on the ballot. I was only arrested after the pig cops would not give me anything in writing or even bother to resreach the law to find out what the petition requirements were, or the US code or case law said on the subject, so I told them that I wanted to record them commanding me to leave, and it was only AFTER I tried to record them telling me to leave on my cell phone that they grabbed me and arrested me.

    “The charges were dismissed because there were a lot of cases to prosecute and some took precedence, given that removing you from accosting, frightening and harassing people in front of the library was the main objective and that objective had been accomplished. You were just not worth the court’s time. Or who knows? Maybe there was bribery or string pulling involved to get the charges dismissed?”

    The real story is that the ACLU of Maryland ended up taking my case. The ACLU would not have taken the case if there had not been a major civil rights violation from the police. The county prosecuter knew that the charges would not stick in court so they dropped the case.

    There have been several petitions in Maryland since then, including the Libertarian Party and the Green Party both having to get more signatures after the state Board of Elections and a corrupt judge screwed them over on what constituted a valid signature. This story was well documented on this site.

    So guess what? There were petitioners at a bunch of locations in Maryland in the months and years after this arrest indicent, as several referendum petitions happened., plus there were petitions from other minor parties and independent candidates, in addition to the Libertarian Party and the Green Party having to get more signatures. I was in Maryland last year and I gathered a bunch of signatures, and I petitioned in front of two libraries while I was there.

  172. Andy

    “Oh yeah? Then why are there multiple witnesses to this? Including petitioners and even a candidate for state legislature. Who you gonna believe?”

    One of the “witnesses” was Eric Dondero, who is not exactly a credible source. The other “witness” was somebody who Eric Dondero put up to posting here who later backed down after what they said was refuted by Paul and I on this forum.

  173. Andy

    John Presley said: “I believe the charges stemmed from harassing, intimidating, and accosting college students, much as you were doing at the library. Also I believe he may have had an outstanding warrant from one of his rental car thefts that you deny took place.:”

    OK, who is this lying sack of shit that’s posting under a fake name?

  174. Andy

    “If you had a case you would have done it.”

    No, the fact of the matter is that I was in other parts of the country, and I was busy working most of that time. When I did go back to Maryland i was so busy that I did not have time to do much of anything beyond working on the petition drives, plus, I also went to West Virginia to save that petitiond drive for the LP (which would have failed had I not gone in there), and as soon as Maryland was over I had to bolt to Alabama, as the LP was at risk of failing there as well.

    I did attempt to handle it via telephone, but then I was told that in Maryland, one only has 6 months to sue the police in state court. Nobody bothered to tell me this until AFTER the 6 month period.

    I could still sue them in federal court, but the attorneys that I talked to wanted me to pay them a $5,000 retainer up front just to get the case going, and they said that there’d probably be more fees after this, and that the case could potentially drag on for a few years, and that I could have to travel back and forth to Maryland to make court appearances.

    I could file the case myself, and I just may end up doing that, but there are a lot of complications invovled with this as well, including that I travel a lot and it is often difficult for me to receive mail in a timely manner.

    The bottom line is that the police and other government officials violate people’s rights on a routine basis. Most of the time they get away with it. Any libertarian should already know this. I’d wager that most Green Party and Constitution Party members are aware of this as well.

  175. Andy

    “So that’s your evidence to the contrary, ‘LOL’? That’s all you have?”

    Virgil Goode is a piece of garbage. A lot of people in the Constitution Party don’t even like him and they regret that he was their candidate for President.

  176. Andy

    “John Presley // May 10, 2013 at 11:46 pm

    ‘I’m thinking that there is a good chance that I’ve already figured out who it is.’

    Shows how much you know, but think whatever you want. You’ll never have any proof and I’ll never tell you whether you ever get it right,”

    This is because you are a COWARD.

  177. Andy

    “John Presley // May 10, 2013 at 11:58 pm

    Andy @262

    So you are in fact admitting car theft charges were pressed, and also that you were in on the scam.

    Also that it happened more than once.
    And from what I heard more than two or three times. ”

    No, there was no car theft. If there had really been car theft, Jake would have spent a lot more than one night in jail.

    The real story was that this crazy asshole at a rinky dink car rental place in Colorado attempted to defraud me out of a bunch of money, and he was not successful.

  178. Andy

    “Even if I knew how or where to ask them, why would I believe them? ”

    Nicholas Sumbles and Darryl Bonner are not hard to find.

    Nicholas is on the Constitution Party’s National Committee (he’s a region rep).

  179. Andy

    “Heh, I thought Andy Jacobs was your real name, you lying sack of shit. And if it’s not, what is?

    Because you just admitted the exact same thing in so many words at 262.”

    No, what I did was I told the real story, not the spun, overdramatized, and embellished version of the story that you told.

  180. Thane Eichenauer

    “FACT: It was Frankel and Frankel alone who banned both Milnes and Ogle and he and he alone who has stood in the way of them being reinstated.”

    As far as “he and he alone who has stood in the way of them being reinstated.” I must disagree. I have made reasonable and studious effort to stand in the way of Robert Milnes from commenting further here at IPR. I may not have made such an effort relative to James Ogle and his USA Parliament but I do say that I don’t miss USA Parliament adver-comments on posts that had nothing in common with Mr. Ogle’s project.

    If you can find a web site (other than IPR) that will welcome Milnes and Ogle and their comments you will have my sincere thanks.

    James Ogle put in plenty of work running for President of the United States to advance his ideas and for that I imagine he deserves recognition. I still do not welcome his comments here at IPR.

  181. Deran

    I retract my allegations against Mr.s Ogle and Milnes, I trust Jill and such people that they have a good idea who the poster is/was. *eating my hat*.

  182. Todd Maxwell

    “If you can find a web site (other than IPR) that will welcome Milnes and Ogle and their comments you will have my sincere thanks.”

    Roseanne’s World?

  183. Steve M

    once all of John Presley’s comments have been removed it looks like Andy is ranting to himself.

  184. Andy

    I’ve got a new suspect as to the identity of the mystery troll: Brian Holtz.

    This is based on some evidence that was brought to my attention.

  185. Steve M

    but those doing the removal are not careful enough to hide the evidence. For example @245 refers to “John Presley // May 10, 2013 at 11:58 pm…. which is now gone.

  186. Thomas L. Knapp

    Andy @ 257,

    “I’ve got a new suspect as to the identity of the mystery troll: Brian Holtz.”

    I’d rate the Queen of England, Santa Claus and Martin Bormann as far more likely suspects than Holtz.

  187. Andy

    “Thomas L. Knapp // May 11, 2013 at 5:25 pm

    Andy @ 257,

    ‘I’ve got a new suspect as to the identity of the mystery troll: Brian Holtz.’

    I’d rate the Queen of England, Santa Claus and Martin Bormann as far more likely suspects than Holtz.”

    Why?

  188. Thomas L. Knapp

    1) The writing style is nothing like his;

    2) I’ve never seen any hint from Holtz that he’s got a bee in his bonnet about your petitioning work, or Paulie’s;

    3) My recollection is that even when he posts pseudonymously, it’s not a serious attempt to conceal his identity — if you look at the comment origination IP, it’s located in his area. This troll is hiding his location through proxies.

  189. Andy

    “Thomas L. Knapp // May 11, 2013 at 6:31 pm

    1) The writing style is nothing like his;”

    Hmmmm, somebody pointed me to something that did sound like it might be him.

    “2) I’ve never seen any hint from Holtz that he’s got a bee in his bonnet about your petitioning work, or Paulie’s;”

    People can have covert hostility, or they could have a twisted sense of humor.

    “3) My recollection is that even when he posts pseudonymously, it’s not a serious attempt to conceal his identity — if you look at the comment origination IP, it’s located in his area. This troll is hiding his location through proxies.”

    He could only hide his most controversial posts through proxies.

    One clue is that whoever the troll is, I was told that they removed some posts from the trash can and then posted them again.

  190. Concerned Citizen

    As a neutral observer I have concluded the troll is probably Paulie himself. He likes to be center of attention and is probably having a good laugh about this.

  191. Thomas L. Knapp

    @263,

    “One clue is that whoever the troll is, I was told that they removed some posts from the trash can and then posted them again.”

    I doubt that’s what you were told.

    What you were probably told is that SOMEONE removed some posts from the trash can and then posted them again.

    That that someone is the troll is likely an inference which may or may not be correct.

  192. Steve M

    so the inference is it had to be someone with access to the trash can….

    I am going to have to write some code that watches every thread so that those of us without such access can have access.

  193. William Saturn

    Out of transparency, could the editor who deleted the troll’s postings give their explanation here for doing so?

  194. Alan Pyeatt

    At this point, it is obvious that some person or persons is working to get the IPR readers fighting among themselves, to control the debates that occur, and to destroy any sense of community among the IPR readers. It is absolutely uunconscionable that some assholes would come onto a privately owned website, which the owner has graciously allowed people to participate in free of charge, and derail it like that.

    But that’s what cognitive infiltrators do. They use dirty tricks to prevent people from being aware of ugly truths they want to keep hidden. They are enemies of free speech and free press. Of course, our Founding Fathers knew that ALL of our freedoms depend on free speech and free press. So they insult writers and make personal attacks. That is not appropriate on someone else’s website (or anywhere else, for that matter).

    Look at these threads and see who’s stirring up shit, using neocon tactics, misrepresenting neocon policies, and otherwise trying to deceive us. Those people are the enemies of freedom – YOUR freedom. Of course they pretend to be libertarians. Fortunately, the average IPR poster is smart enough to see through them.

    This is the kind of attack the LP is under. It’s just as ugly and disgusting as the individuals who perpetrate it.

    We have to recognize what’s happening and respond appropriately.

  195. Jill Pyeatt

    Oh no, I was here on IPR last night, but didn’t check into this thread, since it’s clearly just one person’s personal grudge. This isn’t a free speech issue. This is about one hateful individual who chooses to spend his days posting hatespeech, and I’m talking about the cowardly anonymous troll, not paulie.

    I can’t tell if paulie has been part of the conversation at all this morning. For the most part, our troll is having a conversation with himself, and practicing his impersonation skills.

    I’m outta here, though, so I won’t be reading any disparaging things he’s gonna say to me now.
    Everyone knows every ugly truth about me here, anyway, so there won’t be any surprises.

  196. Thomas L. Knapp

    So to sum things up

    1) Paulie is a Jew;

    2) You don’t like Jews;

    3) Therefore Paulie is bad; and

    4) Since your parents pay all the bills and don’t even make you take out the trash or mow the lawn, you have nearly unlimited time to bore everyone with (1) through (3).

    Yawn.

  197. Andy

    Thomas Knapp said: “That that someone is the troll is likely an inference which may or may not be correct.”

    Yes, but it does add to the speculation that Brian Holtz is the troll.

  198. Andy

    What are the motivations of the troll? I’d say that it is one or more of the following (in no particular order):

    1) The troll is a plant/informant whose mission is to spy on and subvert the Libertarian Party. There are very few actual Libertarians who do any petitioning work on anything close to a large scale, or on any scale at all for that matter. Attacking the few Libertarians who do this work is a way to try to sabotage “boots-on-the-ground” libertarian activism from taking place. Most of the people in the petition business are unphilosophical mercenaries who are only in it for the money, and will work on anything for money. They don’t give a damn about the Libertarian Party, libertarianism in general, or anything else beyond making money. So a plant/saboteur would want to prevent, or slander the few people in the world of petitioning who are actually spreading a Libertarian message and recruiting new Libertarians off the streets in myself, Paul, Jake, etc…

    2) The troll has some kind of personal vendetta, most likely because they are somebody who has been exposed by one or more of us for being incompetent, corrupt, and/or mentally unstable.

    3) The entire thing is a big joke. The troll is not serious, this is just being done for shits & giggles.

  199. Andy

    This troll sure sounds and acts like Eric Dondero.

    Brian Holtz is still a top suspect as well.

  200. Andy

    Alan Pyeatt said: “But that’s what cognitive infiltrators do. They use dirty tricks”

    Yep, I wonder if this is all a part of an operation to subvert the Libertarian Party / movement.

  201. Andy

    The posts that are taken by the person pretending to be Paul of IPR fame should be taken down. This impersonation is clearly an act of fraud.

  202. Brian Holtz

    If the troll-feeders would

    just

    stop

    for N consecutive hours, then the trolls would give up, for some surprisingly low value of N.

  203. wredlich

    A suspected troll’s IP address has been banned from commenting, at least temporarily. Several comments will be “unapproved” by me.

    I will think about further measures to take, and invite comments about what I should do to restore some sense to the discussion on IPR.

  204. Thomas L. Knapp

    “A suspected troll’s IP address has been banned from commenting, at least temporarily.”

    If it’s the obvious one, it won’t work — (s)he was commenting using a proxy, and can just change proxies.

    “invite comments about what I should do to restore some sense to the discussion on IPR.”

    Mussolini wrote a whole book on the subject.

  205. wredlich

    “If it’s the obvious one, it won’t work — (s)he was commenting using a proxy, and can just change proxies.”

    Perhaps it won’t work. Perhaps it will. I may be slightly more sophisticated than the average chimp. We shall see.

    Further discussion might be best moved to the new post on trolls. Or keep it here.

    But having “unapproved” several comments on this thread, it’s probably better to move it to a new thread.

  206. Thomas L. Knapp

    TE @ 278,

    Well, it would be a mistake to think that Dondero holds himself to the same standards he holds others to …

    … but one thing Dondero and Holtz have in common is that they have distinctive writing styles from which they find it difficult to deviate.

    Based on their styles and inability to hide those styles, neither Holtz nor Dondero are suspects at all, let alone “top” suspects as Andy would have it.

    For that matter, given the triteness of the trolling, I think it’s giving the troll too much credibility to even talk in terms of “suspects.” He or she is pretty obviously someone that few people know and even fewer care about the opinions of.

  207. paulie Post author

    My guess is that it is probably not someone who is a regular participant here otherwise, although I could be wrong.

  208. paulie Post author

    Yes, this person clearly spends a lot of time here. I would like to believe mostly lurking, and I think that is most likely. But I honestly am not that obsessed with knowing who it is or why they are doing it, especially since there is no way to know. I’m more interested with what than why. That is my general approach, not just to this. Andy keeps obsessing over who it is – I really don’t care much, since it’s speculation anyway.

  209. langa

    No, Paulie should go, if he’s going to behave like a tyrannical asshole, and delete any comment which points out his fucking hypocrisy.

    I’ve tried to be polite, but this shit is getting ridiculous.

    In fact, I don’t know why I’m even bothering to post this, since I’m sure it’ll get deleted anyway.

  210. paulie Post author

    It won’t get deleted, since it’s finally on the appropriate thread. I did not say you can’t make your points, I specifically said you can, I only asked you to post it on the appropriate thread. I don’t see why that’s so difficult.

    Now that we are finally in the right place to have this discussion, let me answer your points.

    The problem with the homophobic comments and posts is not that they exist, but their frequency. That was also the problem with the racist stuff. Warmongering, while likewise reprehensible, has never been nearly as prevalent in taking over the site.

    Same goes for discussion of quarantined subjects. It’s not that they can never be mentioned once or twice, but once it starts to become a conversation with a bunch of back and forth I do ask that they be taken to the quarantined threads. And if a request or two get ignored, then I start taking comments down.

    But if you want to keep discussing the issue here, do it to your heart’s content.

  211. langa

    Let me get this shit straight. It’s fine for people to discuss “debate parameters” on other threads, so long as they say shit that you agree with, but as soon as someone responds with the exact opposite point of view, somehow that’s “off topic” and gets banished to this fucking thread which nobody even bothers to read?

    And then any subsequent comments pointing out your hypocrisy just get deleted? And you try to claim some sort of objectivity? Are you fucking serious?

  212. paulie Post author

    No, it has nothing to do with whether I agree or not. Just with when it becomes a conversation with a bunch of debate back and forth rather than a casual mention.

    As for whether this thread gets read, I guarantee you it has been read more than any other thread you post the comments that belong here in.

  213. langa

    Readers are an absolutely crucial component of the IPR community. Threads on this website often attract substantial amounts of comments, which we sincerely value …

    So says the monologue at the beginning of the open thread, and yet, even though I have been reading and commenting here for at least 5 years (or however long the site has been around), I get treated no differently than some troll who just popped up.

    And why? Apparently because I dare to disagree with the now all-too-common practice of shouting down anyone whose views fall outside the “IPR consensus” (which is something that used to not exist).

    If every dissenting view (regardless of how silly it may be) is dismissed with a casual reply of “Just shut up!!!”, this site will soon be little more than an echo chamber. Maybe that’s how some of you would prefer it, but not me.

  214. paulie Post author

    No one is shutting you up. It’s just that a small number of topics have been quarantined, for good reason, and whenever discussion of those topics starts taking over unrelated threads there is a two step process

    1. Ask that the discussion be moved to the appropriate thread

    2. If that doesn’t work, remove the off topic comments.

    Again, you can discuss the issue here as much as you want, and yes this thread does get read when there are recent comments on it.

    And you can talk about the subject of the thread or non-quarantined subjects that come up during the discussion on other threads, or any non-quarantined subject on the open threads.

    There is plenty of room for dissenting views and plenty of ways and places to speak your mind. And no, I don’t want an echo chamber.

    I know that the fact that there are any rules at all bothers some people. Meanwhile, others want more restrictions than I do. However, I’ll stick with doing what I think is best until I get fed up with doing it or forced out.

    The issue with comments that deliberately and repeatedly flout the few rules we have is not who makes them, or whether they agree or disagree with me. In fact, there have been some comments that I agree with that I took down for the same reason, and more comments than I can count which I strongly disagree with and wouldn’t dream of taking down.

  215. Waldemar Testarossa Fiumente

    “until I get fed up with doing it or forced out. ”

    The latter may be the best course of action.

  216. Vote Up


    “until I get fed up with doing it or forced out. ”

    The latter may be the best course of action.

    Good idea. He should go regardless of whether it is voluntary or involuntary, like at Last Free Voice.

  217. Vote Up

    Now that Chris Lesiak is posting most of the articles and Frankel hardly ever posts any what exactly do we need Frankel for here? Just to be a censor enforcing rules nobody else wants? He needs to get the boot pronto, he is not needed for any reason whatsoever and he should go or get 86ed.

  218. Fred Lansdale

    “The problem with the homophobic comments and posts is not that they exist, but their frequency. That was also the problem with the racist stuff. ”

    So why is that your anti-White, anti-straight bias has to be site policy? The site is supposed to be about covering Third Parties, some of which are not politically correct, so how can it possibly make sense to enforce left wing politically correct speech codes in the comments?!

  219. langa

    First of all, Paulie, I would like to apologize for some of my earlier comments. Calling you a “tyrannical asshole” was a bit harsh, and I regret it. I still disagree with what you did, but I should not have reacted the way that I did.

    Now, as far as the question of whether my comment deserved to be deleted, it seems to me that the main point of Fauver’s article was the appropriateness (or lack thereof) of Grundmann’s comments, and many of the previous comments on that thread addressed (some implicitly, others explicitly) which comments deserved to be deleted, whether Grundmann should be banned, etc. I felt that my comment was no different than these others, yet it alone was singled out for banishment to this quarantined thread. I still don’t understand why this was done.

    But what really bothers me is not so much this one incident, but rather the general atmosphere here at IPR, which has changed quite a bit recently. Back in the “old days” (which really weren’t that long ago), IPR was a place where there was a very free exchange of ideas. Yes, there were frequently disagreements, and those disagreements often became quite heated, but there were little to no deleted comments, calls for people to be banned, etc. Now that has all changed. It seems that deleted comments and calls for banning people are basically a daily occurrence. It is an atmosphere that, in my opinion, has a chilling effect on free speech, as one often gets the feeling of having to walk on eggshells to avoid offending anyone.

    As for the question of how many rules there should be, that’s up to Warren, of course, although he seems to mostly defer to you and a couple of the other contributors. So, you guys are free to set whatever rules that you wish, whether I like it or not.

    As for me, maybe I just need to take a break from IPR for a while, or maybe for good. I don’t know.

    Anyway, once again, I’d like to apologize for the abusive language. It was uncalled for, and I sincerely regret it.

  220. Fred Lansdale

    “Warmongering, while likewise reprehensible, has never been nearly as prevalent in taking over the site. ”

    Warmongering? Really? So if your homeland is under invasion by an alien race or a religion bent on converting everyone at the point of a sword, you would not fight back, and you aren’t even allowed to talk about it here? Slavery is preferable to you to denying in battle?

  221. paulie Post author

    First of all, Paulie, I would like to apologize for some of my earlier comments. Calling you a “tyrannical asshole” was a bit harsh, and I regret it. I still disagree with what you did, but I should not have reacted the way that I did.

    No need to apologize. I try not to be an asshole, but sometimes I am one anyway, and yes my shit does stink.

    Now, as far as the question of whether my comment deserved to be deleted, it seems to me that the main point of Fauver’s article was the appropriateness (or lack thereof) of Grundmann’s comments, and many of the previous comments on that thread addressed (some implicitly, others explicitly) which comments deserved to be deleted, whether Grundmann should be banned, etc. I felt that my comment was no different than these others, yet it alone was singled out for banishment to this quarantined thread. I still don’t understand why this was done.

    I tried to get the discussion of debate parameters that was taking place on that thread to move here several times. I’m sorry that your comment was the one that broke the camel’s back, but it was not because it was worse than the rest, just the cumulative weight.

    But what really bothers me is not so much this one incident, but rather the general atmosphere here at IPR, which has changed quite a bit recently. Back in the “old days” (which really weren’t that long ago), IPR was a place where there was a very free exchange of ideas. Yes, there were frequently disagreements, and those disagreements often became quite heated, but there were little to no deleted comments, calls for people to be banned, etc. Now that has all changed. It seems that deleted comments and calls for banning people are basically a daily occurrence. It is an atmosphere that, in my opinion, has a chilling effect on free speech, as one often gets the feeling of having to walk on eggshells to avoid offending anyone.

    I think it’s because we have had more problems that lead to such questions coming up, although some people insist that is not the case.

    As for me, maybe I just need to take a break from IPR for a while, or maybe for good. I don’t know.

    Your choice, of course, and I take breaks myself, but if you take one I hope you come back…although not so much that I will start going with your preferences on debate parameters.

    Anyway, once again, I’d like to apologize for the abusive language. It was uncalled for, and I sincerely regret it.

    I’m not too sure it was uncalled for, and in any case it didn’t bother me.

    But thanks.

  222. Jill Pyeatt

    Vote Up at 292: What has been happening the past few months is that Krzysztof has defintely been doing the bulk of article-posting, but Paulie has found a lot of the articles that KL posts. Paulie usually finds lots of articles and sends them to the other IPR writers. Some of us post some of them, but in the past the majority haven’t been posted at all. Chris finds a lot of his own articles, but if Paulie wasn’t around, there would be much less in the way of content here, especially from parties besides the LP, which I do my best to keep up with, and the Constitution Party/AIP, which Kzrysztof does a good job of covering.

    I agree that a lot of the problems we’ve been having lately is the frequency of the foul comments. Some commenters say essentially the same thing over and over again, and if what they’re saying is offensive to the majority of people, that’s when we (Paulie and me, mainly, since I don’t know if other writers try to keep control) try to get things pointed back in the direction of free exchange of ideas and discussion.

    Yes, the atmosphere has changed in the past couple months, but the personal attacks have been much worse, in my opinion. If one commenter continues to insult other commenters over and over again, is that promoting open discussion? I don’t think so. Should we sit back and do exactly nothing? Maybe, but then I believe this site would go the way of Third Party Watch .

  223. Kirk Kavanaugh Kelly

    “. Some commenters say essentially the same thing over and over again, and if what they’re saying is offensive to the majority of people, that’s when we (Paulie and me, mainly, since I don’t know if other writers try to keep control) try to get things pointed back in the direction of free exchange of ideas and discussion.”

    George Orwell is on the line. He wants his irony meter back.

  224. William Saturn

    The biggest “problem” with IPR – some people are overly sensitive.

    Harry Truman says: “If you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen.”

    “Problem” resolved.

  225. paulie Post author

    Harry Truman was one of history’s most infamous mass murderers, and letting the worse get perpetually driven out by the even worse doesn’t strike me as a good solution.

  226. Deran

    Mr. Saturn, your notions of “free speech” is too precious to be usable in the real world.

    No one is suggesting that anyone’s ability to debate or express their opinions regarding a discussion should be curtailed. Your definition means that the use of terms meant to demean another person are protected speech. Which is absurd because if you just allow people to holler demeaning terms at each other there is no discussion (and IPR is not a flame war forum), and people become intimidated and don’t want to participate. And interesting discussions are far more useful and fun than being mean or yelling rude things.

    Your idea of get out of the kitchen if you can’t stand the heat is too butch, too aggressive to be useful. This isn’t a sports bar where drunk men yell and hoot.

    If you can’t handle the reasoned and fair debate, then get out of the kitchen.

  227. Jill Pyeatt

    Deran at 301: Thank you. I’ll also note that Mr. Saturn hasn’t been on the receiving end of any of those nasty attacks.

  228. William Saturn

    The best way to deal with name-calling is to ignore it. Censoring it only emboldens the name-caller.

    Two posts up, Paulie employs an ad hominem attack on Harry Truman to dispute Truman’s statement. I did not respond to that attack. I would respond to his other argument that “letting the worse get perpetually driven out by the even worse doesn’t strike me as a good solution.” However, I don’t understand what he means here.

    The point of the Truman quote is not to convince people to leave IPR, but to encourage them to be cautious about what they post since it may open them to ridicule.

  229. Thomas L. Knapp

    I’m with William on this one.

    There is a happy medium to be had, though — just install one of the commenting systems that uses ratings and thresholds. Then people who want the whole firehose can have it, and people who want things a little less Wild West can set their threshold to not show comments that are rated as bad by other users.

  230. Deran

    Mr. Saturn, what you are proposing is a useful filter to restrict discussion via bullying and intimidation. You prefer flame wars, you find them entertaining. Just admit it. I think IPR is meant to be a forum where all kinds of people are meant to discuss issues. Your idea of discussion seems to me a bunch of trolls and bullies sitting around a camp fire yelling and throwing rocks at each other.

  231. paulie Post author

    The best way to deal with name-calling is to ignore it.

    Up to a point. It can and does get to the point where more and more people leave as a result. Then it tends to go from bad to worse to worse yet and so on. I have seen this happen elsewhere, and to some extent here.

    I would respond to his other argument that “letting the worse get perpetually driven out by the even worse doesn’t strike me as a good solution.” However, I don’t understand what he means here.

    That as the heat gets hotter and hotter, more and more people get out of the kitchen, until only totally crazy people screaming gibberish and insults at each other are left and finally the kitchen melts down from too much heat.

    The point of the Truman quote is not to convince people to leave IPR, but to encourage them to be cautious about what they post since it may open them to ridicule.

    I don’t see how the quote makes that point. Truman’s point was that those who can’t deal with a tough environment should leave.

  232. Jill Pyeatt

    I ignored Grundmann for two entire months. I didn’t comment on his comments and stayed away from threads he was on. He continued to insult me and call me names in almost every comment. I consider his comments libel because they were totally untrue. Ignoring him didn’t work. If I’m going to be abused, I’ll simply go someplace else. I don’t allow abuse in my life, and I’ve put up with this too long. I know some people on IPR would be pleased for me to go elsewhere, but I personally think more people think I contribute to the site. Do I contribute more than Grundmann? I guess that’s for people to decide.

  233. Waldemar Testarossa Fiumente

    TLK #306

    Do you know a way to implement that in wordpress?

  234. Jill Pyeatt

    I’ll also dare to suggest that the type of abuse we’re talking about is why many of the women who used to visit IPR don’t come by any more. I’ve asked them, and that’s want I’ve been told. As far as me being too sensitive, whatever. I don’t tolerate abuse in my life. If that’s too sensitive, then okay, I’m too sensitive.

  235. paulie Post author

    Jill,

    I don’t think you are being too sensitive, and you certainly contribute far more than Grundmann. Maybe some people are being too insensitive.

    If you can’t take the heat stay out of the kitchen?

    How about instead:

    If you can’t keep from crapping all over the house, stay outdoors.

    Also, the point about Truman being a mass murderer was because I thought it was an appeal to authority.

    I doubt he was the first to ever say “if you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen”. Sounds like most likely a folk saying he picked up.

  236. Krzysztof Lesiak

    @307

    I personally love flame wars. I find them VERY entertaining. That’s part of the reason why I posted a bunch of the controversial CP stuff.

    @309

    YES. We all like you and want you to stay here, Jill. You’ve contributed a great deal to this site, undoubtedly more than me (I’ve only been posting since January of this year). You’ve also contributed articles that has generated a great amount of interest and comments, and ones I or even maybe Paulie would not have come across. Don’t let one crazy, deranged psycho discourage you. All Grundmann has accomplished on IPR is discrediting his party further and further and showing the incompetence of CP leadership who have failed to address this hatemongering extremist nutjob, as well as provide a plethora of reasons why he should be sent away for a couple of weeks (or months, or better yet years) to a psychiatric institution to undergo some sort of intensive mental health treatment. Because if he doesn’t receive it, there’s no telling what this fucker may do.

    I’m a huge proponent of unrestricted freedom of speech, but given the fact that his hate plus unabashed, specified harassment, I would have no problem seeing him banned. Plus, IPR is private property. Don doesn’t have any rights on here, of any kind.

  237. William Saturn

    In my opinion, the reason Grundmann persists is because he believes he has proven through his Candle Crusade website that there exists a homosexual movement to indoctrinate children and promote pedophilia. Therefore, anyone who supports gay rights is promoting that agenda. From what I’ve seen, the typical response to this assertion is on the lower half of the pyramid @305.

    I want to raise this discussion to the top of the pyramid. And so, my next project will be to give an impartial and independent review of the claims made on the Candle Crusade website.

  238. Steve M

    Jill, you are one of the people who uses abuse (mud slinging, guilt by association etc) to promote specific political agendas.

  239. Deran

    You enjoy flame wars fine, I have no problem with that. But there are many many many places on the internet where people do not want to dicuss things they just want to yell and be bullies, why not go there and enjoy it? As Jill mentioned, it does drive people away from IPR.

  240. paulie Post author

    I personally love flame wars. I find them VERY entertaining. That’s part of the reason why I posted a bunch of the controversial CP stuff.

    Sure, they can be entertaining, but they can most certainly get to be too much as well. Sometimes the flames spread and start a huge fire and take out everything around you.

    YES. We all like you and want you to stay here, Jill. You’ve contributed a great deal to this site, undoubtedly more than me (I’ve only been posting since January of this year). You’ve also contributed articles that has generated a great amount of interest and comments, and ones I or even maybe Paulie would not have come across.

    You are both contributing a lot. Comes at a good time, as I have been pretty well burned out.

  241. paulie Post author

    I want to raise this discussion to the top of the pyramid. And so, my next project will be to give an impartial and independent review of the claims made on the Candle Crusade website.

    All that will accomplish is give it more attention and fan more flame wars.

  242. paulie Post author

    If you believe that then you should be banned also.

    Good luck with that. Let me know when it happens.

    Why should only those with most technologically superior devices be allowed on the open thread?

    So other people can’t share and enjoy videos because of your “devices”? I don’t think so.

  243. Concerned Citizen

    I want to thank Nick Hensley for his suggestion. I will do so here since that immature brat Deran made it impossible for me to post on the open thread. I also want to announce that part II of the Functional Fillmore Frugal movement treatise will be released next month. Have a nice weekend and ban Deran.

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