Ernie Hancock, Mark Hinkle, Mary Ruwart join with others to help bring libertarian message to Arab world

UPDATE: With the resignation of Mubarak in Egypt this morning, I felt that we should move this article up so as to keep it on the front page and am changing the time stamp on it to be more current. My apologies to anyone who feels this is unwarranted.
-Paulie


Ernie Hancock writes:

Google Translators are already available and the graphics are very timely.

What would happen if all of the Technology, Graphics, Lyrics, Music, Philosophy and the Rhetoric of the r3VOLution was sent to Cairo LOVEolutionaries? I don’t know but we are going to find out…

Think of your favorites and send them to me now at Publisher@FreedomsPhoenix.com. The Libertarian Party of the United States, The International Society for Individual Liberty, and several artists and activists are already putting together a list of addresses to send these activist packets to. We will begin compiling a kit of printed material and Computer files to be placed on CDs. We will begin with about 50 of the best activists in the Cairo area that will have the best access to activists and artists to customize the Graphics, Supply translated lyrics to music and to learn from our experiences. We also need files placed on the web for them to access.

The Philosophy of Liberty is being translated into Arabic now (the right to left reading and the fonts are difficult to work with or it would have been finished already) I talked to Ken Schoolland (ISIL) and they are working on it now.

It started with today’s radio show in Hour One

Because we can 🙂

And via email (embedded links by Paulie):

Mark Hinkle has agreed to make an attempt to supply some libertarian oriented contacts in Cairo and supply some useful material [..]

Mary Ruwart is researching what resources are available via ISIL’s contacts and I have many resources and contacts available via the LOVEolution across the country along with materials at FreedomsPhoenix Workshop etc.

Ken Schoolland is on top of the Arabic translation of The Philosophy of Liberty…. so we got a working plan.

A single CD with Artwork and a simple Liberty Philosophy that it clearly represents, that is universally supported by all young human beings yearning for the same thing might have what long term impact?

Well,… I’m going to find out. Wanna Help?

Money is always useful, but what I really need is addresses of liberty minded contacts in Cairo (the hub of the Arabic speaking world).

You did know that this was always a Worldwide LOVEolution,… Right?!


The radio show mentioned above:

130 thoughts on “Ernie Hancock, Mark Hinkle, Mary Ruwart join with others to help bring libertarian message to Arab world

  1. Jill Pyeatt

    I’d love to help! I can send a little money, but I can email or Facebook people, if that would help. Where can we send a donation?

  2. paulie Post author

    Jill,

    Email Ernie

    Publisher@FreedomsPhoenix.com

    He’s looking for people to help find freedom-minded contacts in the Arab world, as well as Arab-speakers here, people who know people, etc.

    This is from a list where I am supposed to get permission to quote people from, but he’s asking for contacts, so presumably he wants this passed on:

    Right now all I need are addresses,. that’s all _you_ have to do. Each address gets a packet of valuable activist goodies.

    The Philosophy of Liberty has yet to be translated into Arabic so I’m focusing on that right now so that the animation is added to the data disk to be sent. Ken Schoolland is working with the translators now to get it done by the end of the weekend and I’m pitching in a 3rd of the $1000 cost to get the producers focused. So there is nothing I need immediately but mailing addresses, contacts and money to ernest@… on
    PayPal.

    Be creative, take few minutes and find me some addresses, bloggers, facebook accounts, street activists, liberty organizations, supportive
    businesses,. OMG “libertarians”. Yes, I have had some success with this part of the effort, but I need help and this is something you guys can do
    right now with a keyboard.

    Peace,
    Ernie

  3. Bruce Cohen

    Let’s see…
    The trifecta of nasty and dishonest fake Libertarians.

    Hinkle, Hancock and Ruwart are embarrassments to the Libertarian Party.

    They operate on jealousy and fear, when they aren’t wallowing in laziness and ineffectiveness.

    One can only wonder why the bird of their feather, Wes Benedict, wasn’t included in this stupidity.

  4. Porn Again Christian

    This is a truly awesome and long overdue project. I hope it really catches on.

    And I do hope to see more about this on the LP.org website, in the LP blog, Monday Message, Press releases etc.

    Everybody help spread the word!

  5. Porn Again Christian

    Would it be too much to hope that the different parts of the libertarian movement, such as the LP, the Cato/Reason crowd and the Mises/Rockwell folks all work together to make this a success?

    This same kind of work was being done when the USSR fell, and it did make an impact…but now we have tons of new technology to make ourselves more effective this time.

  6. Jill Pyeatt

    I certainly will email Ernie. I have some clients who have family in Egypt, plus some people involved with a local group I’m in. I might be able to help with addresses.

  7. Robert Capozzi

    Scanning this initiative, if they are just now getting the materials translated, it seems like a largely futile effort. I could be incorrect. Someone mark a calendar for 2/9/12 and we can assess its progress.

    I’m all for internationalism, but it strikes me that we’ve got some large obstacles in the US to overcome.

    Sorry to appear to be a wet blanket, but opportunities need to be sized up and assessed, and this one seems quixotic to me. Images of Somalian pirates claiming the Suez Canal come to mind, and I’m not liking that vision.

  8. Thomas L. Knapp

    The International Society for Individual Liberty (of which Ruwart is, IIRC, the current chair) has tried to make inroads in Egypt over the years, with some small success (bringing Egyptian students to international libertarian conferences, publishing Arab editions of libertarian books, etc.)

    Keep in mind that Egypt has had a very authoritarian, sometimes bordering on totalitarian, state for a long time. It’s not like a functioning libertarian political apparatus could just have been set up there and openly operated.

    The libertarian presence in Egypt is about to get larger and more active — openly if possible through organizations like ISIL as the revolution takes hold, covertly if necessary if what appears to be an imminent crackdown is temporarily successful.

  9. Robert Capozzi

    Arab friends tell me that the dialects vary VERY widely. Egyptian Arabic differs greatly from Saudi Arabic, for ex. Things can get VERY lost in translation…careful! Arabic isn’t like English, where we can understand Aussies reasonably well, for ex.

    Meanings can become very much mixed.

    Non-aggression might > kill the infidels! 🙁

  10. Thomas L. Knapp

    Robert,

    If I’m not mistaken, the Arabic translation of Jonathan Gullible was done by a Cairo university professor.

    Arab friends tell me that Arabic is a much less fractured language than many in terms of dialect where reading is concerned, because most people who learn it do so from the same book (the Quran).

  11. AroundtheblockAFT

    Someone complained to me recently that he saw no need to support an organization like International Society for Individual Liberty because there was little hope for building libertarian influence in other nations. But on very limited resources ISIL has found contacts in some of the most hell-holish countries of the world – in Africa, Asia and former Soviet vassal states. Suddenly there is an opportunity in Egypt. Will it work? Probably not likely. But isn’t it worth a few bucks to try? You can become a member of ISIL for some really modest amount. Go google their website and
    join today!

  12. paulie Post author

    Scanning this initiative, if they are just now getting the materials translated, it seems like a largely futile effort.

    Oh, please. Sure, earlier would have been nice, but most Arab countries are still under the boot of dictatorship, and if they get out from under, there will be a long transition. It takes years for the changes to permeate. We already have a working model in the former Soviet bloc. It took years – albeit the communication technology was more primitive then. And we’ve actually made more inroads there than we have in the English-speaking world as a result.

    No, it is not libertopia by any means, but some of the former Soviet Republics and client states are now very high up on world freedom indexes,
    many have libertarians or people who take libertarian ideas seriously high up in government. Even in the ones that still have a great deal of authoritarianism, maybe our efforts have kept things from being much worse.

    I’m all for internationalism, but it strikes me that we’ve got some large obstacles in the US to overcome.

    You can say that about a state, city, and so on. The world is interconnected – trade, immigration, military and “homeland security” issues have both a domestic and foreign aspect. All economic issues are impacted by trade. Concerns about terror and immigration are behind many of the civil liberties issues. To say what happens in the Arab world has no impact on us, or that we have no impact on it, is not to deal with reality.


    Sorry to appear to be a wet blanket, but opportunities need to be sized up and assessed, and this one seems quixotic to me.

    Hmmm, a large part of the world is entering a transitional phase like what the Soviet bloc did 20-25 years ago. Hey, I got an idea, let’s just ignore that and presume there’s no market for libertarian ideas there. Does that sound better to you?


    Images of Somalian pirates claiming the Suez Canal come to mind, and I’m not liking that vision.

    Uhhhh, I see the problem here. The big danger in the Arab world is that government will be too small. Gotcha.

    Meanings can become very much mixed.

    Non-aggression might > kill the infidels!

    Oddly enough, they all manage to read the Koran, there are networks like Al Jazeera that broadcast to multiple Arab countries, diplomacy and trade with the Arab world still happens. Somehow I think it can be managed.

    I don’t know why there are people here who think there is any kind of debate about whether this should happen. It’s happening. If you don’t think it’s the best use of your time, let someone else figure out their own priorities.

    Alternatively, maybe you can make sure that the Arab world does not become too libertarian by translating and disseminating the works of Mike Huben?

    (Sorry for the tone. Not enough sleep).

  13. paulie Post author

    I certainly will email Ernie. I have some clients who have family in Egypt, plus some people involved with a local group I’m in. I might be able to help with addresses.

    Cool!

    Not sure if he wants his phone number posted, I expect you know people that have it. I have one for him but haven’t talked to him on the phone in a while, so I don’t know if it’s still the same one.

  14. Bruce Cohen

    @7

    It’s always been the Radicals who have done the purging and nasty stuff, refusing to work with folks they deem as impure.

    Mary Ruwart is famous for this.
    She accused me of trying to purge folks (including her) on a live radio show. She was disproven, and then it even came out she was behind trying to purge me years earlier.

    No apology was forthcoming.

    The Cato and Reason folks gave up on the bad mannered idiots who refuse to work with others.

    If they don’t get their way, they resort to sabotage and personal destruction.

    Yeah, Mary Ruwart is a closet Saul Alinsky type who has a secret. She’s not really a ‘heal our world’ type, she’s a ‘purge the folks I don’t approve of’ type.

    These folks are certainly not above lying or cheating, and do have a track record of it.

  15. Thomas L. Knapp

    “there are networks like Al Jazeera that broadcast to multiple Arab countries”

    And not just in Arabic. They’re the single best broadcast source for Middle East news in English as well. Unfortunately they aren’t carried by a lot of cable providers in the US, but you can watch live online.

  16. Robert Capozzi

    p14, no worries about the tone…even we Kingsters have our moments of being cranky. The Arab world is certainly important, pivotal even. I support outreach to them, although not in the Somalian mode. That’s not an attractive model, IMO.

    I do get concerned when people get overly enthusiastic AND get out of their depth, generally. I do it, too, then I try to catch myself, staying closer (perhaps too close) to my strengths, the tiny areas where I might make a difference. (Hence, I relegate myself to IPR comments!) The next shiny rock isn’t always the best use of one’s time, I’m finding.

    All good, though.

  17. Steve

    The spread of mass media has made the dialect problem much less of a concern, Modern Standard Arabic would be understood basically anywhere in the Arab world.

    Damn, now I’m kicking myself for not keeping up with my Arabic studies, but I’ll turn over a few rocks in the region and see if I can find someone to help.

  18. Thomas Hill

    Mr. Cohen,

    Your slanderous attack on Dr. Ruwart is hateful and mean spirited. The thousands of libertarians who love and cherish Dr. Ruwart realize how full of crap you are.

    It is one thing to disagree with issues and positions, but to spread venomous lies about a beloved and respected activist like Dr. Ruwart really shows your true colors…

  19. paulie Post author

    Posted elsewhere:

    p] have you talked to Dean Ahmad yet?

    http://www.minaret.org/

    “Visit us at our offices at 4641 Montgomery Avenue, Bethesda, MD in Suite #30 on
    the lower level or write to us at 4323 Rosedale Avenue, Bethesda, MD 20814. You
    may call us at 301-907-0947, or to email us
    mfi at minaret.org”

    http://twitter.com/minaret_freedom

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Minaret-of-Freedom-Institute/129381990416739?v=wall

    p] Just put up a post on this at IPR, hopefully that will get some wheels
    rolling

    Peace,
    -Paulie

  20. paulie Post author

    I’ll turn over a few rocks in the region and see if I can find someone to help.

    Thank you for your help with this.

  21. paulie Post author

    Anyone have additional websites and resources on this? Let’s get our heads together, invite some other people to join the discussion…send the link to people you know and encourage them to post whatever they know here.

  22. paulie Post author

    Please spread the idea to as many other libertarian sites as you can, and post links to where you did so here.

  23. Thane Eichenauer

    I’ll make a suggestion for Bruce Cohen. He can take Tunisia and Hancock, Hinkle and Ruwart can focus on Egypt. We can all check back on July 4th and evaluate which country has more liberty.

  24. paulie Post author

    Please help by:

    Blogger PostDiggDeliciousEmailFacebookFarkFriendFeedGoogle BuzzGoogle BookmarksGoogle GmailLinkedInRedditShoutwireStumbleUponSlashdotShare

  25. Pingback: Ernie Hancock, Mark Hinkle, Mary Ruwart join with others to help bring libertarian message to Arab world <

  26. Starchild

    This is a very worthwhile project. We’re witnessing a historic change in the Middle East, no question about it. Given that it is the most authoritarian area remaining in the world, this is a major advance for freedom, which we should all be delighted to see!

    Kudos to Ernie for taking the initiative, and to Mark, Mary, Ken and everyone else for pitching in. I’ll send a few bucks and try to dig up some contacts.

  27. Robert Capozzi

    tk12: Arab friends tell me that Arabic is a much less fractured language than many in terms of dialect where reading is concerned, because most people who learn it do so from the same book (the Quran).

    me: Reading is likely different from speaking, true. I’d not realized the Quran is a primer for language, though. I’ve not read it, but it seems that there’s a LOT of disagreement as to its meaning, not unlike the Bible, which probably suffers from more misinterpretation, given multiple translations from Aramaic and then Greek.

    I just don’t wish to see a Chevy Nova type moment, which means something like “no go” in Spanish, I’m told. Translations can be a bitch!

  28. Robert Capozzi

    further…

    If you or I sat down with the same translator to explain non-aggression, the Arabic explanation might take a number of turns. If there were 2 translators, the permutations of meaning might get highly confusing for the reader.

    Some issues might be better left unsaid, too. Here’s a passage from an Islamic scholar on abortion:

    “In principle, the Qur’an condemns the killing of humans (except in the case of defense or as capital punishment), but it does not explicitly mention abortion. This leads Islamic theologians to take up different viewpoints: while the majority of early Islamic theologians permitted abortion up to day 40 of pregnancy or even up to day 120, many countries today interpret these precepts protecting unborn children more conservatively. Although there is no actual approval of abortion in the world of Islam, there is no strict, unanimous ban on it, either. Islam has not given any precise directions with regard to the issue of abortion. Hence it is not a matter, which has been clearly stated in the Shari’ah (Islamic Law) but rather an issue pertaining to the application of our knowledge of the Shari’ah. Such application may vary in conclusion with a difference in the basic premises of one’s arguments.”

    Regardless, there seems to be in that scholar’s opinion some major differences on the matter. Add in translation-challenges, and the ideas of liberty might become seriously (inadvertently) mangled by this project.

    Absolutism might clash with a more nuanced worldview. We see that nearly every day, even among Americans!

  29. Porn Again Christian

    @ 37 Sure, we ran that risk when libertarian materials were translated into Eastern European languages too. Seems like it was a worthwhile effort though.

  30. Pingback: San Francisco Libertarian Activist Starchild at Protest of Solidarity with the People of Egypt | Independent Political Report

  31. paulie Post author

    Anyone reading that has a blog, please put up a post and link back to us.

    I’m emailing anyone I recognize in my email contacts as a libertarian that I have corresponded with to promote this.

    I’ve noticed even though Mary Ruwart and Mark Hinkle are involved in this, there hasn’t been an LP.org blog post or even anything at Liberty for All yet…hopefully everyone will get the message out.

  32. Thomas L. Knapp

    Now that the rubicon has been crossed, from the possibility of reform to the necessity of revolution, an Anarchist Black Crescent operation of this same general type will go into action within the next few hours

  33. Robert Milnes

    “…refusing to work with those they deem impure.”
    Actually Bruce has a point.
    I believe this is a problem for me with Mary. & Tom. et al.
    I really don’t know what to do about it.

  34. Thomas L. Knapp

    Update on libertarian outreach to the Arab world by the Center for a Stateless Society:

    – An “open letter to the Egyptian people” is now up at blackcrescent.info in English and Arabic. It’s just a single page at the moment, as we’re still working on some of the technical aspects of publishing material in Arabic.

    – Kevin Carson’s most recent commentary on developments in Egypt appears in today’s Daily Star (a popular regional newspaper published in Lebanon but distributed throughout the Middle East). From the Daily Star, it has also been picked up by the web site for Al Arabiya, one of the region’s leading television news channels.

  35. paulie Post author

    Good article by Carson. Are you guys making any attempt to gather contacts of people who agree with you that are either in that part of the world, or Arabic speakers anywhere, as Ernie has envisioned with his project?

  36. Thomas L. Knapp

    Paulie @ 48,

    Yes.

    C4SS’s function is that of “media center.” Our job is to get market anarchism into print as op-eds, onto talk radio and TV, etc. That mission is global, but obviously we look for “windows of opportunity” to get the message published. The uprisings in the Middle East represent such a window. So, we’re putting out material on the subject, submitting that material to regional outlets, looking to have that material written in or translated to Arabic, etc.

    C4SS is itself a project of Black Vanguard, with a broader portfolio. Our mission is to smash the state (any and all of them). Hopefully any material that C4SS puts through the window of opportunity will inspire/recruit new anarchists who will remain active on their own even after the window closes to our external assistance. Anarchist Black Crescent would be a sort of umbrella descriptor for what will hopefully be an active future movement in the Islamic world.

  37. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    Bruce Cohen // Feb 9, 2011

    “Mary Ruwart is famous for this. The Cato and Reason folks gave up on the bad mannered idiots who refuse to work with others. If they don’t get their way, they resort to sabotage and personal destruction.”

    [Lake: Mister ‘Israel First’ the faux Libertarian (no open borders for he) and the faux American Patriot (Jerusalem forever!) does not need Doctor Ruwart to discredit him. His private emails and his all too public tirade during the LPCa Long Beach confab will tend to be more than plenty.]

  38. Carol Moore

    Why is that Mr. Cohen and his ilk can’t figure out that in ANY political organization one is supposed to purge the people who corrupt the **radical** tenets by being LESS radical, not the ones who adhere to them by being AS radical??????

  39. Robert Capozzi

    cm: ….supposed to purge the people who corrupt …

    me: Supposed to? Corrupt? Begging questions beget questions!

    Where does it say what any one is “supposed to” do? And is it not obvious that “corruption” is in the eye of the beholder?

  40. Porn Again Christian

    Maybe we are going about this wrong. How about going on some Arab forums and asking if there are any libertarians there?

  41. Robert Capozzi

    g: In a libertarian society, statism is a radical concept.

    me: I can buy that. But what does that imply for a non-L society (if there’s ever been one)?

  42. Thomas L. Knapp

    Gains @ 52,

    I’ll pass the suggestion on. What you’re seeing at that site at the moment is basically a placeholder, as we wanted to get something up “same day” when Mubarak resigned. It won’t continue to look like that, and more material will be coming.

  43. Bruce Cohen

    Hinkle, Ruwart and Hancock can’t hardly get daily LP business done, how can they even imagine having some Egyptian influence.

    Anyone of substance meeting these folks realize they are not exactly full of inspiring energy.

  44. paulie Post author

    I don’t really care who does this, I’m more concerned that it gets done. Other folks are involved too, I only mentioned certain names because they have an LP connection.

    Hope to have more about this project soon.

    If anyone else has blogged bout it please let us know.

  45. HAAA HAA ROFL LMAO

    @64 I am not laughing at you, I am laughing with you in this case at what you wrote.

  46. Fun K. Chicken

    Laugh all you want…the project is spreading, and it will (not may, will) free millions of minds in the middle east…all while you laugh but do nothing to help.

  47. Observer

    BC @ 64: What are you trying to accomplish, Bruce? Endear people to you, so they’ll determine you’re the real activist? Everything you say on IPR is nasty and unfounded.

    What exactly do you do but stay home by your computer and snarl?

  48. Fun K. Chicken

    @ 74 It’s not about this blog, silly. What are you doing to bring freedom to the Arab world? That’s what we are talking about here. Either help or go away.

    Lead, follow or get out of the way.

    +1

  49. Observer

    Bruce @ 64: You posted the nice article about Dakota Root over the weekend, so we know you’re capable of good things. How about some positive activism?

  50. paulie Post author

    This is how it started in Tunisia and Egypt…remember the fall of the Soviet Bloc?

    http://www.anonnews.org/?p=press&a=item&i=433

    Anonymous Press Release Operation Algeria (12/02/2011)

    To the people of the world, free and otherwise;

    Today, the world watched as the government of Algeria tried to silence its people. Algerians, we watched with you, as did other organizations, including Amnesty International, who called for the allowance of people to gather peacefully – a basic human right.
    The regime of President Boutifleka has arrested those who speak against him. The people of Algeria, with their rich history of tolerance, have called peacefully for his resignation. As the sun sets on yet another dictatorship, the people of Algeria remain strong in their conviction, ideals and determination.
    Following the assistance successfully being provided to the people of Egypt and Tunisia in their struggle for Freedom, we have been watching and acting on the situation in Algeria. Along with working against censorship, sites in Algeria have been suggested in which to stage a digital sit in. DDoS protesters disrupt business or government actions by obstructing the flow of normal traffic, in order to make a political point.
    The people of Algeria have made it clear during today’s protests that they have the same aspirations as our brothers and sisters of Tunisia, Egypt, and the rest of the world. Anonymous encourages them to take example of the brave Egyptian people who, through determination and peaceful demonstrations have won their cause.
    Anonymous is currently targeting the website of the Algerian Interior Ministry. We know that, compared to the effort of the Algerian People, this can only be described as symbolic. We do this to show them that they are not alone in their struggle: Algerians, Anonymous stands with you. Let us know how you want us to help.
    We consider the Algerian government’s repression of free speech, i.e. cutting off the people’s internet access, to be a violation of basic human rights. We will make every effort to assist the Algerian people in regaining their methods of communication. “The lips of wisdom are only open to the ears of understanding”.
    Anonymous will do everything possible to make the people of Algeria prevail in their fight for freedom. We will continue with whatever actions are necessary to assist in this next Revolution, as we did in Tunisia and Egypt. We strongly encourage the government of Algeria to listen to the call of its people, refrain from violence, support their aspirations, and maintain respect for their civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights.
    We are Anonymous.
    We are Legion.
    We do not forgive,
    We do not forget,
    Expect us
    Sincerely,
    Anonymous

  51. right action

    let everyone get up from this blog and take a plane trip to the arab world. come on. lets get going. I see your still writing on the blog. you gotta geta moving here. LOL

  52. paulie Post author

    Not everyone has the means to go to the Arab world, but we can all help gather contacts, spread the word about this project so more people join in, etc.

  53. paulie Post author

    Don’t worry about my ticket.

    Contribute some arab libertarian contacts, help spread this post through social media or find another place to spread your useless negativity.

    Once again, this thread is not about debate, it’s about getting something done.

    Lighting a spark of freedom.

    Quenching a thirst in the desert.

    Lead, follow or get out of the way.

  54. paulie Post author

    OK then, I’ll change or erase your comments. There are well over 7,000 other threads on IPR. You have plenty of places for debate. This will no longer be the place for that.

    From now on if you don’t have something to say that contributes to this project your comments are not welcome in this thread, period.

  55. paulie Post author

    And that also goes for everyone else too.

    This thread is for the specific purpose of getting work done, not for the purpose of debating whether that work is necessary, whether it will be effective, etc.

    There are lots and lots of other threads on IPR where you are free to debate the issue until the cows come home, and then some more until they go back out again.

    This thread exists for one purpose: getting work done. If you are not contributing to that work, post on another thread.

  56. Thomas L. Knapp

    OK, so now we’re going from a couple of discrete “this guy spams every thread with the same subject” things to “Paulie decides what each thread of discussion will be about?”

    Fuck that noise.

  57. paulie Post author

    Paulie decides what each thread of discussion will be about?

    No, not at all.

    There are literally thousands of threads at IPR that are wide open.

    Why is it that we can’t have a few for specific purposes, such as getting work done?

    If you would like to put up a thread to debate whether this is a bad idea, please go for it.

  58. Thomas L. Knapp

    “Why is it that we can’t have a few for specific purposes, such as getting work done?”

    Why is it that it only became that after 80+ messages when you suddenly decided you didn’t like the direction the discussion was taking?

    I was suspicious of getting onto the Milnes/Ogle slipper slope to begin with. I thought it would take us longer to roll to the fucking bottom of that slope.

  59. paulie Post author

    Why is it that it only became that after 80+ messages when you suddenly decided you didn’t like the direction the discussion was taking?

    Thomas, posted way back at

    @ 14 “I don’t know why there are people here who think there is any kind of debate about whether this should happen. It’s happening. If you don’t think it’s the best use of your time, let someone else figure out their own priorities. ”

    However, since there are people who apparently feel it is a good use of their time to debate it, what is wrong with a separate debate thread?

    I’m all for that, but I also want to have one that is a dedicated work thread, which is what I have been trying to do all along with this one.

    I’m not trying to shut anyone up.

    7700 plus threads that are open for discussion on IPR, and quite a few people, including you, can add more new ones ….including one to debate whether this project is worthwhile or not.

    I’m asking for one tiny corner to try to get something done. That’s a problem?

    I was suspicious of getting onto the Milnes/Ogle slipper slope to begin with. I thought it would take us longer to roll to the fucking bottom of that slope.

    I am not going to the bottom of any slope, and I had suspicions about the slippery slope myself. However, it was getting to the point where it was about impossible to have a conversation.

    Would you like to turn off akismet spam filtering too while you are at it?

  60. paulie Post author

    OK, how about this then: I take back what I said. Talk about any subject on any thread you want, and someone else can post them too.

    Does that work better for everyone?

    I didn’t think I was asking for much by having one thread out of over 7,700 that is specifically for getting work done, especially when it is so easy to put up a new one.

    But I guess I was asking for too much, so maybe I should stop putting up threads…would that be better? I am willing to do that if that is what people wish.

  61. Jill Pyeatt

    I think a few minor controls are fine. I’m tired of having to wade through posts by anonymous people (usually) who don’t add to the conversation. IMHO.

  62. Pingback: Debate on debate parameters, plus: Should Paulie stay? | Independent Political Report

  63. Matt Cholko

    In my opinion, this effort should be focused on getting pro-liberty materials into the hands of ANY activists in the middle east who aren’t believed to be opposed to libertarian philosophy. We’re talking about areas that will be/may be undergoing serious political changes. In my mind, this means lots of people who are “searching” for the right direction. While we certainly would do well to support existing libertarians, I think we could also do a lot by planting the seed of liberty in the minds of some fence sitters.

    For the record, we need libertarian materials to be translated into as many languages as possible for use around the world AND here in the USA. When running for the VA House of Delegates in 2010, I translated Lower Taxes, Smaller Government, More Freedom into Korean and put big signs up in the heavily Korean portion of my district. It got front page attention in the local Korean newspaper, and I got a FAR higher percentage (2-3 times higher) of the vote in the precincts where many Koreans voted. That’s just 3 phrases!

  64. Fun K. Chicken

    “In my opinion, this effort should be focused on getting pro-liberty materials into the hands of ANY activists in the middle east who aren’t believed to be opposed to libertarian philosophy. We’re talking about areas that will be/may be undergoing serious political changes. In my mind, this means lots of people who are “searching” for the right direction. While we certainly would do well to support existing libertarians, I think we could also do a lot by planting the seed of liberty in the minds of some fence sitters.”

    I think that is actually the idea here.


    “For the record, we need libertarian materials to be translated into as many languages as possible for use around the world AND here in the USA. When running for the VA House of Delegates in 2010, I translated Lower Taxes, Smaller Government, More Freedom into Korean and put big signs up in the heavily Korean portion of my district. It got front page attention in the local Korean newspaper, and I got a FAR higher percentage (2-3 times higher) of the vote in the precincts where many Koreans voted. That’s just 3 phrases!”

    Excellent point.

  65. whatever

    @16 It’s always been the Radicals who have done the purging and nasty stuff, refusing to work with folks they deem as impure.

    Mary Ruwart is famous for this.

    The most obvious example being the time Ruwart refused to work with Bob Barr and cross-endorse him for a Barr/Ruwart fusion ticket. Barr was forced to cut a deal with Root instead. Mary Ruwart’s pigheadedness on the 2008 convention floor is what boosted Root to the position he has today.

    The Cato and Reason folks gave up on the bad mannered idiots who refuse to work with others.

    If they don’t get their way, they resort to sabotage and personal destruction.

    To be fair, a number of “Cato and Reason folks” worked at sabotaging and personally destroying Dr Paul and his campaign in 2008. So we aren’t exactly replete with angels on either side here.

    ————

    Anyway, back on topic — for “Cato and Reason” type folks working with/in Egypt, the organization you probably want to look to is the Atlas Foundation.

    http://atlasnetwork.org/blog/2010/08/global-initiative/

    MinbaralHurriyya.org (Arabic)

  66. Bruce Cohen

    Mister Hill @ 20.

    It’s not slanderous if it’s true.
    It’s not venemous if it’s accurate.

    Go to Blog Talk Radio.
    Listen to Steve Kubby’s show during the last Presidential Campaign.

    Hear Mary Ruwart get nasty and make the accusation.

    FACT: I have been the target of multiple purge attempts.
    FACT: Mary was part of at least one of them, a few years ago.
    FACT: Mary accussed me of the same, and was lying through her teeth.

    FACT: If I was lying and/or slandering, I’m quite sure Ms. Ruwart would be suing me now.

  67. to paulie

    Maybe you could put back the posting that was well thought out on here, the long version. That would be a start considering what’s happening on the other posting.

  68. paulie Post author

    But, again, thanks to the people making on topic comments here.

    The ones who are actually helping move the project we are talking about along, since 7,700 plus other threads are just not good enough for a few people who insist on ruining every attempt to make IPR worthwhile.

  69. paulie Post author

    Examples of on topic comments:

    Gene Trosper @ 32 I found this interesting article on Islam and anarchism. May prove useful:

    http://ihsan-net.blogspot.com/2005/06/on-becoming-muslim-anarchist.html

    Tom Knapp at 47:

    An “open letter to the Egyptian people” is now up at blackcrescent.info in English and Arabic.

    Linnabary @ 67

    There is an “Arabic Study Group” on FB, whose purpose is to quickly learn Arabic in order to send Libertarian emissaries to Egypt and other countries.

    http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_201426633206607&ap=1

    Matt Cholko @ 98

    Does anyone know where I can send a donation that will go specifically towards this project?

    whatever @ 101

    for “Cato and Reason” type folks working with/in Egypt, the organization you probably want to look to is the Atlas Foundation.

    http://atlasnetwork.org/blog/2010/08/global-initiative/

    MinbaralHurriyya.org (Arabic)

    Let’s please have some more discussions like those.

  70. paulie Post author

    considering what’s happening on the other posting.

    What happened on the other posting is that by far most people agreed with me, asked me to stay, and said that the amount of moderation at IPR is far from being excessive.

    Me: Let’s please have some more discussions like those.

    To: why is that?

    me 2: Because some of us would like to have them, and this is not the public sewer.

    If you want to have your conversation that you want to have, put up a blog and put as much time into it as I am putting into this one.

    In the meantime, lead, follow, or get out of the way.

    There are over 7,700 other threads on IPR that you can post on, and we can start a new one.

    I’m trying to get something accomplished here. It’s a big part of why I spend my time doing this.

    On the other thread, a large number of people are saying they enjoy what I do here and want me to keep going.

    So for now, that’s what I’ll do.

    And as for you hitching a free ride on my efforts and trying to steer me off course: enough is enough. This is where you get to pushing your own cart for once.

  71. to paulie

    HAAA HAA you know, you seem to get numerious negative comments that doesn’t even compare to my statement. For what was posting on the other blog regarding you. I can’t imagine how many people out there that would like to say what they want and yet have class that they don’t. If you are just going by some of the posting from the same ole same ole. I can’t even imagine how many people see that but refuse to even say anything. Let alone while I suspected you getting complaints. I can only imagine what I see is only the tip of the iceburg.

  72. paulie Post author

    And once again, for good measure:

    Examples of on topic comments:

    Gene Trosper @ 32 I found this interesting article on Islam and anarchism. May prove useful:

    http://ihsan-net.blogspot.com/2005/06/on-becoming-muslim-anarchist.html

    Tom Knapp at 47:

    An “open letter to the Egyptian people” is now up at blackcrescent.info in English and Arabic.

    Linnabary @ 67

    There is an “Arabic Study Group” on FB, whose purpose is to quickly learn Arabic in order to send Libertarian emissaries to Egypt and other countries.

    http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_201426633206607&ap=1

    Matt Cholko @ 98

    Does anyone know where I can send a donation that will go specifically towards this project?

    whatever @ 101

    for “Cato and Reason” type folks working with/in Egypt, the organization you probably want to look to is the Atlas Foundation.

    http://atlasnetwork.org/blog/2010/08/global-initiative/

    MinbaralHurriyya.org (Arabic)

    Let’s please have some more discussions like those.

  73. paulie Post author

    On the other hand, if the debates help keep this thread alive, maybe they have some purpose after all.

    So, I take back what I said.

    Fire away with your arguments, maybe they’ll draw some interest so some work eventually gets done.

  74. sickofbrucecohen

    Bruce Cohen @ 102: “FACT: If I was lying and/or slandering, I’m quite sure Ms. Ruwart would be suing me now”.

    You flatter yourself, Bruce. No one takes you seriously because you lie so often.

  75. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    Bruce ‘Israel First’ Cohen, and the facts? In the same room? On the same planet?

    Facts? Like the fact that as a Libertarian he is not ‘an open borders guy’! Like the fact that the Israeli Defense Force murder of American sailors on the non combatant USS Liberty (that a bit of irony on THAT moniker ……..) was justified.

    Like Bruce’s behavior during the LPCa Long Beach convention. Like Bruce being ‘quite sure’ about Doctor Rewart’s current or expected behavior —— that is an opinion, not a fact.

    Read a book, take a class, go to google!

  76. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    Observer // Feb 14, 2011:
    “………. You posted the nice article …….. so we know you’re capable of good things. How about some positive activism?”

    Huh?

    First we are primarily contrarians. If the Democans and the Republicrats were good people whom do good things, this site, Individual Voter, Ballot Access News, and the non major partisans would not exist.

    If groups want to broad cast their public relations scripts, let them do it, instead of us being automatic parrots. Especially if the message of ‘alternative’ groups sound a whole lot like R and D standard rot.

    It is not our mission to be ‘nice.! Good ness comes from truth and logic and facts, not niceness. Empty minded Niceness is the enemy!

  77. paulie Post author

    http://www.examiner.com/muslim-in-san-francisco/compulsion-religion#ixzz1EJtlFCfB

    Excerpts:

    2:256 “There shall be no compulsion in religion: Truth has become distinct from error, and whoever rejects false deities and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold, which never dbreaks. And Allah is Hearing, Knowing.”

    [..]

    The simplicity and profundity of the nonaggression principle are, I believe, the keystone to solving the strife in Muslim countries, and indeed the world. So two fundamental questions exist concerning the meaning of this verse. What is compulsion, and what does it mean that Truth is clear from Error?As far as I can tell, the Arabic word Ikrah is accurately translated as “compulsion” with very little loss of meaning, except that the root word in Arabic is the same root as “hatred” which does expand the implication. Compulsion is the use, or the threat of coercive force to cause someone to act against their will. Generally, people consider this the use or threatened use of bodily harm, and some include in this definition threats made to a person’s wealth and property.

    The Truth is not so clear that people cannot continue to deny and distort Islam, as they have since its first days, even in the light of this verse. But, it is so clear that the majority of people who study it and consider it with sincerity eventually come to believe it, even its most emboldened enemies. Here lies the fulcrum on which clarity and compulsion turn… sincerity. Sincerity reveals clarity, and compulsion obfuscates sincerity. Therefore sincerity and compulsion must be inversely correlated, and as one waxes the other must wane. So, the two are incompatible.

    Let me put it this way… if an Arab flies from Arabia to America and the moment he leaves Saudi air space he has a glass of wine, he doesn’t get credit for not drinking in Arabia, because in his heart of hearts he was abstaining out of state coercion, not out of obedience to Allah. In other words, if you are praying because there is a gun to your head, you are not obeying Allah, you are obeying the gunman.

    It is my contention that if we carry this verse to its logical conclusion it means much more than a religion without coercion. A deen without coercion means politics without coercion. It means personal relationships without coercion. It means a comprehensive way of life without coercion. So, just as Islamic theology should be characterized by open debate and a free market of ideas, an Islamic order should be characterized by political liberty, and the Islamic family should be characterized freedom of association.

    Continue reading on Examiner.com: Compulsion in religion – San Francisco Muslim | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/muslim-in-san-francisco/compulsion-religion#ixzz1ELgc5Z9e

  78. paulie Post author

    The Philosophy of Liberty is available in 39 languages. Visit the downloads page for more information or select yours below:  *New* Afrikaans – Die Filosofie van Vryheid
    Belarusian – Філасофія Свабоды Bosnian – Filozofija Slobode
    Bulgarian – Философията на свободата Chinese – 自由的哲学
    Chuvash – Ирĕклĕх философийĕн тĕшши
    Croatian – Filozofija slobode
    Czech – Filozofie svobody
    Danish – Frihedens Filosofi Dutch – De Filosofie van de Vrijheid English – The Philosophy of Liberty Esperanto – La Filozofio de Libereco Farsi – فلسفه|تست آزادي
    Finnish – Vapauden Filosofia
    French – La Philosophie de la Liberte German – Die Philosophie der Freiheit
    Georgian – თავისუფლების ფილოსოფია
    Hebrew – פילוסופייהחירות
    Hungarian – A Szabadsag Filozofiaja Icelandic – Heimspeki Frelsisins *New* Italian – La Filosofia Della Liberta Japanese – 自由の哲学
    Kashubian – Filozofija wòlnoscë
    Korean – 자유철학은
    Lithuanian – Laisves Filosofija Mongolian – философи нь Эрх чөлөөний
    Montenegrian – Filozofija Slobode
    Polish – Filozofia Wolności Portuguese – A Filosofia da Liberdade Romani – Filozofia Tromalipaski
    Romanian – Filosofia Libertatii
    Russian – Философия  Свободы
    Serbian – Философија Слободе
    Slovak – Filozofia Liberalizmu
    Somali – Falsafadda Xorriyada Spanish – La Filosofia de la Libertad
    Swedish – Frihetens Filosofi
    Thai – ปรัชญาแห่งเสรีภาพ
    Turkish – Özgürlük felsefesi
    Ukrainian – Філософія Свободи

  79. paulie Post author

    Oh, I don’t think the philosophy of liberty is universal among Somalis. At best, parts of it are accepted in parts of Somalia.

  80. paulie Post author

    Per Bruce Majors:

    Egyptian revolution
    Liberty-movement people: we have our own news source for Egypt. Cairo native and libertarian blogger (“Rantings of a Sandmonkey” blog) is tweeting and calling in tweets to a Jordanian friend:

    Sandmonkey
    my aunt lives next to presidential palace, she says she’s hearing repeated gun battles #Jan25 #Egypt

  81. Pingback: LP of San Francisco: Libertarians Support Middle East Freedom Uprisings | Independent Political Report

  82. Arthur

    We are seeking a good Arabic translation of “The Principles of the Free Market” suitable for inscription on a monument. If you are a believer in Free Market Principles and a fluent native speaker of standard Arabic, we ask for your assistance. Here is the currently translation, the product of google translations:
    http://www.freemarketmonument.org/arabic.php

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