Wagner Group Responds to Claims from Reeves Group in the Oregon Lawsuit

For those of you trying to follow the lawsuit going on in Oregon over who the legitimate leaders of the Oregon LP are, here are the documents the lawyer for the Wagner faction filed in response to the documents filed by the Reeves lawyer.

First, Tyler Smith filed this Second Amended Complaint for the Reeves Group against the Wagner group:
2nd Amended Complaint

Then, Wagner’s lawyers filed this document: Answer, Affirmative Defenses and__ Counterclaims (P0291055)-1


For history of this complicated drama, I suggest that the reader put “Oregon Libertarian Party” in the search box here on IPR and read the more than 35 articles that come up since March of 2011.

124 thoughts on “Wagner Group Responds to Claims from Reeves Group in the Oregon Lawsuit

  1. George Phillies

    This is a complex suit, doubtless subject to appeals, and the notion that the suit will be over in another month, as expressed in the latest LNC meeting, is exceedingly unlikely to be correct.

    Recall that the 2008 Massachusetts Ballot Access suit, which I personally arranged in order to put Barr on the ballot, was still being litigated as recently as this year. [There was an adequately positive outcome; we now have a definitive finding from the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court as to whether or not Massachusetts has ballot substitution other than by fresh petitioning.]

  2. NewFederalist

    If the LP misses 50 state and DC ballot status because of Oregon, it will be a real shame.

  3. NewFederalist

    I should clarify that I mean for the convention nominated national ticket.

  4. Jill Pyeatt

    NF @ 2 & 3: I agree. I hope to see Johnson’s name on the Oregon ballot ASAP.

  5. George Phillies

    Those of you who read the LP Oregon’s web pages or the LP radical pages will have noted that the LPOregon held a party to sample local beer and sign and notarize the elector forms, forms without which no candidate for President can be put in the ballot in Oregon. The candidate names are currently left blank. Johnson and Gray must agree to be candidates of LPO to be put on the ballot by LPO, and it seems that so far they have not done so.

  6. Wes Wagner

    To wit GP@5

    I have been requesting forms from the campaign for over 4 weeks.

    They also report not having money to pay for statements in the Oregon Voter’s guide.

    I am sure the campaign would appreciate if concerned IPR readers could donate at least $3500 for Johnson’s statement, and preferably a total of $7000 so that both Johnson and Gray will have statements.

  7. Wes Wagner

    Further, we have recently learned that Tyler Smith, counsel for Reeves, Burke, et.al. is also counsel for the Oregon GOP, http://www.ordelegates2012.org/2012/07/oregon-republican-party-must-conform-to-state-law/#more-95

    And has been representing the GOP in the battles they are having against the Ron Paul delegates here in Oregon.

    Further, it has been discovered that Mr. Hinkle knew about Tyler Smith being counsel for the Oregon GOP when the LNC hired him and ultimately bootstrapped the lawsuit against the actual affiliate of the national party, and received his recommendation to hire Tyler from Aaron Starr.

  8. Michael H. Wilson

    Sounds like an ethics complaint to the bar association might be in order for starters.

  9. Wes Wagner

    MM @13

    It is in the Johnson campaigns hands now to move to plan B now that the LNC has abandoned us in favor of factional BS once again.

    Plan B was more expensive financially, unfortunately.

  10. zapper

    The Johnson campaign should move expeditiously to submit all required forms for ballot access in Oregon.

    The campaign should also be sure to pay the $7000 required for their voter’s guide statements.

    These statements in the Voter’s Guide will likely be the most effective form of outreach available both in terms of cost and impact to reach those voters who actually care at a moment when they are actually interested in our message.

    Please, whatever your reason for delay, you should prioritize this and complete the process.

    The Reeves group is obviously wrong at this point. The legal briefs, which I have read, make this clear. It’s another sad case of infighting for control vs. doing what’s best for the LP.

  11. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I have started an article about the Oregon GOP/Tyler Smith brouhaha.

  12. Thomas L. Knapp

    GP @ 1,

    “the notion that the suit will be over in another month, as expressed in the latest LNC meeting, is exceedingly unlikely to be correct.”

    That claim was not made to the LNC for the purpose of accurately informing the LNC.

    That claim was made to the LNC for the purpose of giving the LNC an excuse to not act.

  13. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    TLK @ 17: ” That claim was made to the LNC for the purpose of giving the LNC an excuse to not act.”

    I agree and, unfortunately, it worked.

  14. Wes Wagner

    JP @18

    And anyone who was stupid enough to believe it needs to be removed.

  15. Eric Blitz

    $7k for a voter’s guide entry seems like a waste of scarce resources to me.

  16. Wes Wagner

    EB @20

    You are apparently not from Oregon.

    The $3500 per entry gets you over 1 million impressions of an advertisement that almost half the entire voting populace in this state will use to make their decision on who to vote for.

  17. Thomas L. Knapp


    There are more than 2 million registered voters in Oregon.

    Each one gets a copy of the Oregon Voter Guide in the mail.

    1/3 of 1 cent per voter to reach every last one of them via direct mail is about as non-wasteful a use of scarce resources as I can imagine.

  18. Joe Buchman

    It would be useful as well to have the name “Gary Johnson” in that guide dozens of times (as in “endorsed by Gary Johnson” on every Libertarian Candidate’s entry).

    Unfortunately as long as this dispute is going on, given our campaign policy of not endorsing any Libertarian Candidate who is running (or could be running) against another Libertarian Candidate, this is not possible.

    Frankly that frustrates me beyond words. . . .

    Any ideas on how to maximize the number of votes for Gary Johnson in Oregon (or anywhere else) — endorse@garyjohnson2012.com


  19. George Phillies

    “Any ideas on how to maximize the number of votes for Gary Johnson in Oregon”

    Based on current reports, you might start with ‘have your candidate on the ballot’. It’s only a step, but it is apparently one that your candidate is not taking.

  20. Wes Wagner

    TK @22

    The vice presidential statement has a diminishing return compared to the Presidential statement. I consider them both worth it, but having one statement by Johnson is a minimum requirement. Not being in that guide at all is considered unprofessional and a hallmark of a crappy campaign.

  21. Joe Buchman

    George @ 24.

    That issue is above my job title.

    I have suggested that Gary should carry Wes from Portland to Salem as an apparent media stunt (while in reality having him lashed to his back — similar to the climb up Everest).

    “but it is apparently one that your candidate”

    My other goal is to have you, Wayne Allyn Root, and everyone else refer to Governor Gary Johnson as OUR candidate.



  22. NewFederalist

    George- I was referring to the elector forms being left blank rather than Johnson/Gray. Thanks!

  23. George Phillies

    @27 The LPO cannot put Johnson on the ballot unless he signs some papers and the like, which he apparently has not done.

    The LPO if Johnson takes Lieberman’s advice and refuses to put himself on the Oregon ballot needs to be ready to run someone else, e.g., Gary Johnson of Texas.

  24. George Phillies

    @26 Is he my candidate? I don’t know. Why has he not signed the Oregon paperwork? If he takes Lieberman’s advice and refuses to put himself on the Oregon ballot, I expect Liberty for America will be discussing his faults at very great length.

  25. Joe Buchman

    George @ 29.

    There’s two things collapsed here, IMO.

    1) The SEL 110 forms for the Voter’s Guide.

    2) The forms for various states which need(ed) a notary. I believe many of those forms were signed (managed by LP DC office staff) in Vegas a few days ago.

    3) In goes the good air; out goes the bad air.

    4) When you’re onboard with Gary as OUR candidate, let me know. I’ll make more time for, and be nicer to, you then.



  26. Joe Buchman

    PS — I’ll also agree to do that irregardless on November 7th. Until then I’m just doing my best to work my @$$ off for this guy — who represents IMO the ONLY hope for an America that I’d want to see my kids have their kids in. And I’d REALLY like to have grandkids, and have them happy . . .

    It’s all not any more complicated than that for me. There’s no choice here. Gary is our only hope. The Obi-Wan of this age. Uniquely qualified, and the best hope for Liberty on the Planet in our lifetime.

    All that said, yeah, I wind up feeling fairly depressed about our likely future. AND I’ve set that aside for 110 more days to work my ass off so I can at least look those grandkids in the eyes and tell them I did the best I knew how to do for them.

  27. Ad Hoc

    The forms for various states which need(ed) a notary. I believe many of those forms were signed (managed by LP DC office staff) in Vegas a few days ago.

    Can you find out whether Oregon was one of them?

    needs to be ready to run someone else, e.g., Gary Johnson of Texas.

    Interesting suggestion. Does the form in question list the candidate’s address or home state, or just name or what?

  28. NewFederalist

    I am really confused here. Just what the hell is going on? Does Gov. Johnson NOT wish to be on the ballot in Oregon? If not, why not? Is the national LP ticket an anethma to both groups? This entire episode is just why alternative parties are so totally irrelevant! Please somebody… get your shit together and make sense!

  29. paulie

    http://oregonvotes.org/doc/publications/forms/100_candidate_filing/SEL110.pdf is the candidate filing form.

    I have been told that several such forms for various states were signed by Gary Johnson in Vegas. Was Oregon one of those? If not, can it be signed as quickly as possible to put this to rest?

    Any other forms which need to be signed other than the voters guide which is a separate issue?

    I agree that the voters guide is important but being on the ballot to begin with is even more important.

    I like the Portland to Salem media stunt idea.

    I also hope to see Phillies and Root among others refer to Johnson as OUR candidate. Root has certainly endorsed Johnson and hosted a fundraiser, but he has also made it crystal clear that he prefers Romney over Obama, just as Carla Howell at LPHQ has made it crystal clear that she prefers Obama to Romney. Either revelation is a mistake, IMO; we should never encourage the wasted vote fallacy by giving in to the notion that one is preferable to the other. They are both equally disastrous and we should stay on message with that.

  30. George Phillies

    @33 The LPO a month ago sent Johnson the material needed for him to put himself on the Oregon ballot. He has thus far not responded.

    The LNC gave funds to an Oregon Attorney, who also works for the Oregon Republican Party, to do certain legal research, and then voted that there was no conflict of interest with the attorney working for a group litigating against the LNC’s state affiliate in Oregon.

    The LP National Convention refused to seat the delegation from the National Party’s state affiliate in Oregon.

  31. Paulie

    LPO a month ago sent Johnson the material needed for him to put himself on the Oregon ballot. He has thus far not responded.

    Hopefully that will be fixed quickly.

  32. Joe Buchman

    Guys — @ 32 @ 33 and @34.

    As of today, and since the window first opened for filing — one human being in the entire Universe has the ability to put Johnson/Gray on the ballot in Oregon; Wes Wagner, chair of the Libertarian Party of Oregon that is recognized by the Secretary of the State of Oregon. Wes will stay recognized, according to that secretary until either Wes or the Judge tells the secretary that some other human being is now the Chair of the LPO.

    I can assure you that that EVERYONE here at the campaign wants Johnson/Gray on the ballot in Oregon, in the other 49 states and in DC.

    I’m not so sure about members of the LNC; especially Dr. Liberman, given his comments, and others who apparently agree with him that this campaign is not as important as the long-term battle in Oregon between those who support Mr. Wagner as Chair and those who don’t.

    Personally, all I care about for the next 109 DAYS is doing what I can to maximize the number of votes for Gary Johnson.

    I actually have come to believe he has some legitimate shot at WINNING THIS RACE, and if not this year then in 2016 when his chances for WIN THEN might actually be served by maximizing the number of votes he gets 110 days from RIGHT NOW.

    So while I wish EVERYONE would stop diddling around, especially those on the LNC and in other allegedly “libertarian” organizations, who seem to have “other more important priorities” than working to maximize the number of those VOTES FOR GARY, having followed matters in Oregon fairly closely for a few months now, I understand, if not everything about him, at least Mr. Wagner’s . . . waiting.

    If you don’t, I suggest you contact him directly and ask.

    Posting those questions here, at least based on what I’ve observed here in the past, is not, IMO, the “ideal channel of communication.”

    May I also, as passionately as I can, ask you to join me in my efforts to maximize the number of votes for Johnson/Gray?


    Tomorrow it will be 108 DAYS.

    Hope that helps,


  33. NewFederalist

    Thanks Professor Phillies for the update. I only hope the Johnson/Gray campaign gets their shit all in one sock very soon. Unlike 2008 when Baldwin was a preferable candidate to Barr, that is not the case in 2012. Despite his warts on the “Fair Tax” bullshit Johnson is still far superior to Goode and Stein IMO. If his campaign really blows this then there is really no point in voting this year.

  34. paulie


    We can only ask Wes Wagner to file the candidate filing when he gets SEL-110 linked above back filled out by the campaign with Gary Johnson’s signature. As of today Wagner says he has not received it. I’m not assuming that is an intentional oversight on the campaign’s part, I just want to make sure it does not get lost or put off among all the other things that have to be done (for all I know it may have been done already and is in the mail but it would be good to find out for sure).

    It would also quell speculation on here and put the ball back in Wes Wagner’s court.

    I disagree with those on the LNC who consider the Oregon battle to be more important than the presidential campaign. I put the national campaign above the Oregon feud.


  35. Joe Buchman

    PS rereading the above I see I may have misread some of the above.

    I do not know about Oregon for sure, but it is my belief that it was standard business practice to have the candidate sign a bunch of forms for various states in Vegas. If Oregon wasn’t one of them, I’d be surprised. I wasn’t there for the signings, I did hear Robert Kraus talking to the Governor about managing the process there.

    The deadline in Oregon for submitting those is still more than a month away — August 28th I believe.


  36. NewFederalist

    “I disagree with those on the LNC who consider the Oregon battle to be more important than the presidential campaign. I put the national campaign above the Oregon feud. ”

    No shit! There is NOTHING more important than the campaign right now. I guess I remember why I left the LP over 27 years ago!

  37. paulie


    I share your concerns and would like to know myself.

    However, let’s not jump to conclusions or be too impatient.

    It may well be that the form has already been signed and sent or will be signed and sent very soon.

    There is a lot to be done and few people and little time and money to do it.

    Not everything can be done as instantaneously as those reading at home would like. Having worked on campaigns – it ain’t easy!

  38. paulie

    There is NOTHING more important than the campaign right now. I guess I remember why I left the LP over 27 years ago!

    Johnson’s campaign benefits if people who get this come back to the LP (or join for the first time in the case of others). Leaving the LP does not make the LP better, it makes it worse. It doesn’t make the campaign better, it makes it less supported and less integrated with other candidates and long term organization.

    Those of us still in the LP could use some more allies within the organization. I hope I’ll see NF and others with a similar point of view back in the LP.

  39. NewFederalist

    Paulie… I know what you are saying. I worked my guts out for the party in the 70’s and early 80’s only to get bent over. There just are so many assholes involved with the party it makes the non-aggression pledge impossible to uphold!

  40. paulie

    Sometimes the principle does get difficult to uphold, but then you can justify it as responsive force, I suppose.

  41. Joe Buchman

    @ 43 — I’m learning about that last sentence!


    So I know every day in every conference call various issues about the goal of 50+DC ballot status are discussed. There are a LOT of balls in the air around that. From petitioning, to transferring the signed petitions, to transferring the validated sigs, to filling out all the paperwork and NOT HAVING ANOTHER LOUISIANA, to Oregon — the state with the most attention per electoral college vote in the history of presidential ballot access — at least in my imagination about such issues. . . .

    And what a generally screwed up state. Why have EXTRA sigs for a Voter’s Guide after getting the sigs to be on the ballot. Or pay $$$ for it. How nuts is that? And the rain? Even with Voodoo Donuts, I’m NEVER moving there!


    Personally I prefer the Bacon Maple Bar, but for the donuts (and so many other things in life) yes . . . “the magic is in the hole.”

  42. Joe Buchman

    @ 41 — I have a spot for you on THIS campaign if you’d like to volunteer. You’re who we need back more than most of the “we” seems to know.

    Write me any time you’d like to pick up your lance and stride forth again.


  43. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    NF @ 41 & Paulie @ 39: “I disagree with those on the LNC who consider the Oregon battle to be more important than the presidential campaign. I put the national campaign above the Oregon feud. ”

    Very well said. This is also my belief–we need to get Johnson’s name in front of every voter in the country so they can realize there really is a choice!

  44. Steve M

    I think this just got a lot more confusing because the lawyer that the Reeves Group is using appears to be the legal council for the Oregon Republican party. Isn’t this a serious conflict of interest?

  45. NewFederalist

    The only confusion is will the Libertarian national ticket be put on the ballot in Oregon? There really is nothing else of consequence. Who gives a damn whose attorney is whose? If we had more engineers than attorneys we would not be exporting jobs!

  46. Michael H. Wilson

    People on the LNC should set an example and stay out of the business of states that they do not live in just as the LP suggest this nation stay out of the internal affairs of other nations.

  47. paulie


    Not really an apt comparison as we are a national committee. Having our national ticket on the ballot in as many states as possible is our business. Beyond that, I agree that we should not micromanage states’ internal issues except where they ask for help – and that is plenty of times and places.

  48. Steve M

    Given that the Reeves Factions Lawyer appears to be working for the Oregon Republican Party and that this lawyer’s father appears to be the Vice-Chairman of the Oregon Republican Party, I would say that this law suite is looking like an attempt by the Oregon Republican Party to take over the Oregon Libertarian Party.

  49. NewFederalist

    @55… just what does that mean exactly? Will Johnson be on the ballot in Oregon?

  50. Steve M

    Good question. @56 but you do realize that this thread is about “Wagner and Group Respond to Claims from the Reeves Group in the Oregon Lawsuit” not about the Johnson campaign. All the Johnson discussion is just a thread hijack. Important but not relevant to the thread,

  51. Michael H. Wilson

    Steve M @55 some of us have reason to believe that has been the idea since the early 1990s given all the games that have been played.

  52. Steve M

    I am wondering if Aaron Starr will respond to the questions surrounding the Reeves Faction’s legal council?

  53. NewFederalist

    Steve M @ 57… I guess I am just one of those people who could not care less if Oregon falls into the sea. I could not care less who is shagging whom. I could not care less if this thread is hijacked. I only care about the Libertarian national ticket of Governor GaryJohnson and Judge Jim Gray being on the ballot in Oregon. If that makes me a bad person I can live with that. What the hell are YOU doing?

  54. Steve M

    I am an engineer I am trying to keep jobs from being exported from the US.

    Besides that I am a substantial downer to the Johnson Campaign.

    I also know that there are times and places for having specific discussions and raising the issue of Johnson getting on the ballot once or twice as an off topic post is ok but drowning out the thread topic isn’t.

  55. Steve M

    The Johnson Campaign has stated it is this for the long haul. Willing to run a second time and using this first time to help build the party foundation for the second time.

    So the health of all state parties should be an important goal of the presidential team.

  56. NewFederalist

    “I am an engineer I am trying to keep jobs from being exported from the US. ”

    Touche! I LIKE you!

  57. Wagnerian Opera

    Besides that I am a substantial downer to the Johnson Campaign.

    Best. Typo. Ever!

  58. Reflections on the Revolution in Oregon

    So the Smith family is actively fighting against the pro-peace, anti-monopolist, anti-imperialist forces in both the Republican and Libertarian parties….is that the working theory here?

  59. Wagnerian Opera

    Wagnerian Operas are known for their length and highly dramatic quality.

  60. Steve M

    @63 and @64 should go without saying that the first makes the second more likely

  61. Reflections on the Revolution in Oregon

    Burke’s tomes are notable for their ironic qualities.

  62. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    66: That appears to be the case, at least at this time. Perhaps Mr. Burke or Aaron Starr will explain to us how this is no big deal, Wagner is the bad guy, and so on.

  63. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    SM @61: Okay, I’m a little slow. Did you man to say “donor”?

    (Interesting initials…)

  64. Steve M

    @66 no idea. but representing two different competing organizations seems likely an issue…

    from http://www.osbar.org/_docs/rulesregs/orpc.pdf

    (a) Except as provided in paragraph (b), a lawyer shall
    not represent a client if the representation involves a
    current conflict of interest. A current conflict of interest
    exists if:
    (1) the representation of one client will be directly
    adverse to another client;
    (2) there is a significant risk that the representation
    of one or more clients will be materially limited by
    the lawyer’s responsibilities to another client, a
    former client or a third person or by a personal
    interest of the lawyer; or
    (3) the lawyer is related to another lawyer, as
    parent, child, sibling, spouse or domestic partner, in
    a matter adverse to a person whom the lawyer
    knows is represented by the other lawyer in the
    same matter.
    (b) Notwithstanding the existence of a current conflict
    of interest under paragraph (a), a lawyer may represent
    a client if:
    (1) the lawyer reasonably believes that the lawyer
    will be able to provide competent and diligent
    representation to each affected client;
    (2) the representation is not prohibited by law;
    (3) the representation does not obligate the lawyer
    to contend for something on behalf of one client
    that the lawyer has a duty to oppose on behalf of
    another client; and
    (4) each affected client gives informed consent,
    confirmed in writing.

  65. From Der Sidelines

    This is very simple:

    1. Johnson and Gray need to sign the paperwork and get it back to Wagner ASAP.
    2. Johnson and Gray need to pay at least $3500 to get in the voter guide.

    Why they cannot handle these two things is unknown and embarrassing to them and the LP.

    3. It is more and more clear that through the Starr-Burke Alliance there is a clear and concerted effort to take over the LP, both in Oregon and nationally, to destroy it for the GOP. Starr tried it in California before and almost succeeded, but it may happen there in spite of him, not necessarily because of him.
    4. Purging the LINOs at Las Vegas didn’t go far enough.

    Why these LINO fools keep getting re-elected by the LP membership is a mystery.

  66. Wagnerian Opera

    LINO fools

    Is there a conflict of interest between LINOs and RINOs? Oh my!

  67. Reflections on the Revolution in Oregon

    @76 Or is it more like a confluence of interest?

  68. Wes Wagner

    GP @79

    Johnson has surrounded himself with people like Burke, Root, Starr, Forest, etc… and does not drop them….

    continue your inferences….

  69. Reflections on the Revolution in Oregon

    @81 You forgot Roger Stone.

    What inferences are you drawing from all that?

  70. From Der Sidelines

    @79, that may be so, but that was a quid pro quo that I’ve heard that Johnson since regrets. Some of us warned him in advance about the company he keeps, and the glorified bookie was one of those warned about. Johnson isn’t perfect, but he isn’t mixed up in the Oregon mess either, except by not doing #’s 1 and 2 above, which would get him out of the middle of it.

    IOW, it is in Johnson’s best interest to get out of the middle of the Oregon mess by simply signing the paperwork and getting into the voter guide, and leave the lawsuit aside from him. That also benefits the LPO by removing that unnecessary wrinkle from the lawsuit issue, and it also benefits the LP as a whole because it takes one more state off the ballot access list.

    Mr. Buchman talks about maximizing votes for Johnson. Seems to me that a very good way to do so is to push to get the Governor on the Oregon ballot ASAP.

  71. Wagnerian Opera

    @85 Exactly.

    But things are never that quick and easy in Wagnerian operas and it ain’t over til the fat lady sings.

  72. Thomas L. Knapp

    FDS @ 75,

    “Why [the Johnson campaign] cannot handle these two things is unknown and embarrassing to them and the LP.”

    I’d say there are two reasons for which you should cut the Johnson campaign a little slack.

    The first is that there are 49 other states in addition to Oregon, all of which require paperwork and/or fees of some sort. Presumably at least one person on the campaign has devoted, and continues to devote, significant time and effort to coordinating the submission of all that paperwork and the disbursement of all those fees … and it TAKES time.

    The second element is that the Johnson campaign gets one shot at getting on the ballot in Oregon, is almost certainly receiving conflicting messages about which shot is the one that works and which is the one that fails, and is trying to make damn sure it picks the right one before launching the ball toward the net.

    Not really part three, but an addendum to part two, is that one or more parties are doing their damnedest to keep that situation as muddy and unpredictable as possible, because they think doing so advances their cause.

    My predictions are:

    1) That Wagner will man up and submit the paperwork as soon as he gets it, even though doing so without indemnification from the LNC or the campaign puts him at legal risk;

    2) That the Reeves Gang will go to court to keep the Oregon LP off the November ballot on the claim that they are the group with the rightful claim to that ballot line;

    3) That if they can find the right judge, they’ll get a “temporary order” accomplishing that, and that that order will not expire in time for the LP’s candidates to appear on the ballot; and

    4) That they’ll spend the first year after that blaming everyone but themselves for that outcome, and the second year telling everyone that it’s “old news” and “time to move on.”

  73. Wagnerian Opera


    Reeves has already said he would submit the Johnson paperwork (can two different groups both do that?) and they do not want to be seen as the ones that kept the LP off the ballot. More likely would be a lawsuit by Republicans.

  74. From Der Sidelines

    @87: It takes less than ten minutes to sign the forms, stick them in an envelope, seal it, address it, postage it, and mail it. That it next to zero time.

    If they are worried about which way to jump, they simply do it twice and send copies to both Wagner and Burke. Same process, add 30 seconds for extra signatures.

    Then the ball is back in Oergon’s court and not stuck waiting on Johnson. It really is that simple, all attempts at obfuscation aside.

    Besides, the voter guide thing can be accomplished outside either faction, directly with the Oregon SoS anyway.

  75. Paulie

    It takes less than ten minutes to sign the forms, stick them in an envelope, seal it, address it, postage it, and mail it. That it next to zero time.

    Sounds simple until you have a million other things to do and not enough people or time or money to do them. But then again maybe it has already been done. Or maybe they are needlessly procrastinating.

    If they are worried about which way to jump, they simply do it twice and send copies to both Wagner and Burke. Same process, add 30 seconds for extra signatures.

    Would the SOS accept both forms?

  76. From Der Sidelines


    The SoS would accept whichever form that is submitted by the legal group, which at this point is and is likely to be the Wagner group, unless a judge injunctions otherwise. Either way, the base is covered.

    But I don’t buy the “million other things to do” excuse, either.

  77. Stewart Flood


    Glad to hear that the forms are done. I asked about our filing for South Carolina on Saturday and didn’t get a complete answer from our state committee. Hopefully we (and the other 49 states) will have what we need soon so that OUR candidate can be put on the ballot!

  78. Steve M

    Who is the point person from the Johnson campaign that is working on ballot access?

  79. Thomas L. Knapp

    FDS @ 89,

    “It takes less than ten minutes to sign the forms, stick them in an envelope, seal it, address it, postage it, and mail it. That it next to zero time.”

    Even assuming that’s the case (and it isn’t), 50 states * 10 minutes is more than 8 hours.

    It’s more than 10 minutes for a number of reasons.

    Some forms have to be more than just signed. They may need extensive filling out, up to and including the naming of electors from each congressional district and other things that don’t just magically happen.

    They may require notarization.

    They sure as hell don’t just get postage put on them and mailed, unless you want to just hope that the US Snail doesn’t send them all to a dead letter office in Fargo, North Dakota. They’ll be sent registered/certified, FedExed, etc.

    To get on the ballot in any given state, excluding major tasks like petitioning, is likely a double-digit man-hours job. Not all those hours come from the candidate, but they come from somewhere.

    I hear that football is actually more complex than it looks “from der sidelines” as well.

  80. Eric Blitz

    I am curious why the parties didn’t just enter into a stipulation/consent order on the limited issue of placing Gary on the ballot.

    Since both sides to the litigation profess to want Gary Johnson on the ballot in Oregon, maybe consider entering into a stipulation or consent order in the litigation, one that has all parties consent to the filing by the officer currently recognized by the Oregon Secretary of State for the limited purpose of placing the national presidential candidate on the ballot, with no prejudice to the disposition of any and all claims in the suit. A few other technical stipulations would typically be added but their lawyers can address that as they are charged with making such a consent order work under Oregon’s rules of civil procedure/case law/statutes. You might need to add the Secretary of State/State AG as an accommodation party to the stipulation to prevent the State from retroactively declaring the nomination filing ineffective if the Court were to resolve the litigation prior to the election.

    It would also be prudent to consult with the Johnson campaign to make sure that the form of the stipulation works for them.

  81. Wes Wagner

    It would appear that the Johnson campaign may take Scott Lieberman’s advice.

    I am working on an open letter to all state chairs about the entire genesis of this issue, the duplicity of people on the LNC on these matters, and the duplicity of the members of the Johnson campaign involved.

  82. Reflections on the Revolution in Oregon

    It was not obvious to you in 75, so I tried again to explain it. Shall I try again?

    It was quite obvious what you said then, and that it involved an election. Neither one was new information or disputed by anyone following these matters.

    What inferences you draw from the well known undisputed facts may be less obvious; perhaps you should try for the first time (in this thread) to make them explicit.

  83. Wagnerian Opera

    It would appear that the Johnson campaign may take Scott Lieberman’s advice.

    How or why would it appear that way? Have they given you some indication you would not be getting the form from them?

    Stewart Flood in SC says they are still waiting for a form for their state; many others may be waiting as well.

  84. Steve M

    @98 Given the Johnson track record in Michigan…. we might not know up until the deadline of August 24th.

  85. zapper

    Wes Wagner // Jul 19, 2012 at 9:18 am

    It would appear that the Johnson campaign may take Scott Lieberman’s advice


    This is sad and I sincerely hope that you are mistaken.

    It’s doubly sad because I fear that you are not and because this situation in Oregon is dragging down the efforts of the Johnson campaign nationwide.

    With all the attention and time focused on ballot status in Oregon, hundreds of busy individuals are wasting thousands of manhours on a problem created by individuals who purport to be Libertarians or at least libertarians.

    The Reeves cabal in its self-interested power play is sidetracking a good portion of the effort of the Johnson campaign, the LNC, and most of the potential of the Oregon LP to find members and build the party in 2012.

    In addition to wasting volunteer manhours, we will lose out on the potential of the campaigns of other Oregon candidates and burden other campaigns nationwide. Donors will zip shut their wallets, prospects will decline memberships, old members will allow theirs to expire.

    The arrogance of these attackers, the self-centered sinecure seeking behavior of this cabal, must not be allowed to destroy our efforts.

    The Johnson campaign – and you are following this site and this thread – MUST absolutely reject and ignore the cabal and its lawsuit.

    The Johnson campaign must submit the documents and the payment for the Voter’s Guide insertions – $7,000 – Immediately.

    This is for the best for the Campaign, for the LP as a whole and for the Oregon LP. It is the best for the candidates in Oregon and for candidates nationwide.

    The best way for the campaign to deal with this battle, and for the LNC to deal with this battle is to operate with the currently recognized OR LP, get on the ballot, and ignore and stay out of the rest.

    For the good of us all, Please wake up and realize that the damage being done by the cabal, if monetized is conservatively approaching the million dollar mark.

    To allow the cabal to succeed and keep Gary Johnson off the ballot in Oregon would be far worse.


    Submit the documents today to the real, currently recognized OR LP. Send all the required forms and the money to Wes Wagner.

    Wes Wagner will get them filed immediately, and this disaster can be put behind us.

    We are approaching the 100 day countdown to the election. We can’t have this problem still hanging over our heads as we approach election day 2012.

    The lawsuit will still be ongoing after the election unless the self-serving interlopers drop their illconceived court-based offensive.

    As a completely impartial and disinterested party to the affair, I can clearly see that the Reeves group is totally in the wrong in this matter. They deserve and I fully expect that they will lose eventually.

    However, that is not the most important issue.

    Campaign 2012 is our priority.

    WE must support our candidate. The cabal is trying to destroy the Johnson campaign. The Johnson campaign has the means to prevent that.

    To get everyone refocused on our campaign effort, we need to have all the paperwork filed and the payments made and the public knowledge that we have moved past the cabal.

    Please get the documents processed and filed immediately.

    Thank you.

  86. George Phillies

    @104 Why not? Because the major litigation issue is everyone else, like the Republican State Committee, who might challenge placing the candidate on the ballot, on the grounds the convention failed to seat the legitimate state delegation.

    @103 You still have not solved the litigation risk issue.

  87. Be Rational

    @105 No one can solve the litigation risk issue.

    We must accept that risk exists and move forward.

  88. George Phillies

    No, risk only exists for the LPOregon officers if the file, which they currently cannot do. The LNC had the opportunity to correct the faulty decisions of the prior LNC as to whom they put on the credentials committee, and how the National Convention responded, and declined to do so.

    At the moment, the position of the National Party and its National Convention is ‘you bought the line, you own the consequences’.

  89. Joe Buchman

    Zapper @ 93


    I agree. I follow most of IPR but I do not speak for the campaign, except for matters currently relating to the process for endorsing other candidates.

    I do raise issues that I see here with senior campaign management when they appear urgent and relevant to me.

    I am not at liberty to share any responses to that.

    I can say this is not being ignored, you are correct about the time invested on this, and IMO everyone around the campaign is attempting to maximize the number of votes Gary Johnson will EARN 109 days from now.

    Boy — do I feel he will have earned every one of them.


  90. Eric Blitz

    @105 George, if it was an order of court third parties would have a very difficult time arguing that the nomination was improper. But considering those third party attack risks, like Be rational 106 indicates, not even the resolution of the litigation removes that theoretical risk. Certainly just signing either faction’s paperwork and submitting doesn’t avoid that risk.

    As for individual liability, again, if sanctioned by a court order I think they’d have a defense and a stipulation from all parties to the litigation would remove them as possible plaintiffs. Third parties asserting personal liability over a third party association’s process compliance? Very unlikely and again, even less so with the imprimatur of a court order.

  91. Marc Montoni

    @107, I would think if the current OR LP polled its members under its current purported rules, backed up by some form of documentation, the [current] state party officers would be in the clear if one of Burke’s friends decided to pursue a challenge — would it not?

    I agree that the LNC’s choice of appointees to the Credentials Committee was at best shortsighted.

    The LNC knew damn well in advance that it was placing a known member of the aggrieved faction on the Credentials Committee, and that he would ignore his parliamentoonian training and refuse to recuse himself from voting on an issue in which he had a direct material interest in the outcome.

    I have to wonder at a group of individuals who are so determined to wage war on their opponents that they fail to understand why that war tends to alienate their colleagues who aren’t so rigidly aligned.

  92. From Der Sidelines


    You seem to have misunderstood what I wrote.

    A campaign worth its salt will have a person or committee dedicated to getting the paperwork to get on the ballot properly organized and arranged, be it one state or 50, such that all the candidate has to do is simply sign the stuff so it can be submitted, then return to his job, which is campaigning. That’s the under 10 minutes part I referenced, and I’ve seen it done that way in the past–specifically for an entire slate of candidates, over a dozen, using the same joint committee.

    No, that doesn’t factor in any petitioning if needed, but in this specific case, that doesn’t apply.

    And yes, football is more complicated than from the sidelines. But having played the game, it’s not as complicated as you think. But I don’t expect you to understand the difference between a crossing pattern and a square-out, either.

  93. paulie

    Relevant comments from another thread for those who missed them there:

    Jill Pyeatt // Jul 19, 2012 at 5:24 pm

    Joe, do you think it will help if some of us write to the Johnson campaign and ask them to make Oregon’s paperwork a priority?

    120Joe Buchman // Jul 19, 2012 at 5:57 pm

    Jill @ 199. Wes just told me he’s been told it’s on its way. Let’s give the private, non US Government, non USPS semi private whatever that is crony-mail?, service a couple of unmolested by us days to deliver first.


    121Wes Wagner // Jul 19, 2012 at 6:58 pm

    JB @120

    I noted that scans of the documents by email will be valid enough for the SoS here in Oregon.

    122Joe Buchman // Jul 19, 2012 at 7:14 pm

    Wes @ 121 — I note they have been valid in the past. I offer no opinion, only admonitions for vigilance, regarding any future actions, or non actions, by any and all governmental agencies and agents. Past performance is not a reliable predictor of future performance, except, perhaps in the inverse.

  94. Richard P. Burke


    I can tell you categorically that nobody I know even tangentially associated with the LPO would do anything to keep Johnson/Gray off of the Oregon ballot no matter how he gets there. Similar fears were expressed during this year’s January special election to replace congressman David Wu, which also happened while the Oregon dispute was going on, and were found to be groundless. Nobody in the Reeves group, or in the GOP incidentally, did anything to remove James Foster from the ballot. In fact, even though Wagner’s group nominated Foster, the Reeves group held his victory party.

    We hired Tyler Smith because his firm is experienced in political litigation and has a strong working relationship with the Oregon Secretary of State Election office. We see his representation of the GOP as irrelevant. The GOP uses many lawyers for many things, and if anyone wanted to challenge the presence of LP candidates on the Oregon ballot, it would probably be a GOP candidate anyway, not the party.

    But this isn’t going to happen. Both sides will file to place Johnson on the ballot, assuming Wagner follows through. Oregon’s ballot status is secure. The forms from both sides will be stamped as “RECEIVED” by the Sec. of State before the deadline. If our lawsuit is settled after the deadline, the Sec. of State will simply process the correct pile of forms. The only way I see that Johnson doesn’t get on the ballot is if Wagner fails to file and then wins the suit after the filing deadline.

    Richard P. Burke

  95. Humongous Fungus

    Here’s hoping that it doesn’t get screwed up. Just get it done everyone…everything and anything else is LESS important!

  96. Joe Buchman

    Paulie @118 I’ve been told by both the campaign official in charge that there was an attempt to FAX them yesterday, and that they will be emailed as printable attachments today . . .

    Step by step, inch by inch . . .

  97. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I’m hoping to see Wes post here today that they’ve been received.

  98. Wes Wagner

    There were some errors in the forms… they are working on corrected copies.

    Still work in progress.

  99. Pingback: Oregon Update: Plaintiff’s Response to Motion to Dismiss | Independent Political Report

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