November 2016 Open Thread


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So, it’s November and here at the start of the month there’s a lot of drama and speculation about where the duopoly we all here love so much is headed, and where it’s taking us…

comment-demexit

Is everyone all aboard and strapped in? It’s going to be a wild finish to this crazy ride of an election….

But, no need to worry. It’s going to make America great again!

All sarcasm aside … as usual, talk about whatever you want, even the duopoly (or, you know, something else), just don’t get us in trouble if you can help it.

123 thoughts on “November 2016 Open Thread

  1. Andy

    I wonder how many of these sock puppets have posted here over the years.

    US military launches Operation Sock Puppet, pays contractor $2.76m for social media ops (UPDATED)

    http://boingboing.net/2011/03/17/us-military-launches.html

    “From the Your Tax Dollars at Work file, news that the US military’s Central Command (CENTCOM) has awarded a $2.7 million contract to Ntrepid, a newly-formed Los Angeles-based startup, to create fake online ‘personae’ for the purpose of manipulating online conversations and spreading pro-American, pro-military propaganda in social media. The ‘online persona management service’ called for in the contract would permit one US serviceman or woman to manage up to 10 separate sock puppets.
    The Guardian article today says the program would make it possible to ‘secretly manipulate social media sites such as Facebook and Twitter.’ CENTCOM disagrees with this characterization of the program, and their statement to Boing Boing is at the bottom of this post.”

  2. paulie Post author

    Lew Rockwell: Hillary Wants To Start WW3

    Trump’s personality makes WW3 a virtual certainty. He’s a notorious hothead, one-upper, escalation afficianado and grudge holder. These are not good character traits on a world stage.

    Jones and Rockwell are, of course, second hand dealers in Putin/Trump fascist propaganda.

  3. paulie Post author

    Reply to Capozzi in the expired October Thread:

    Thanks, PF. I was torn, as DL posted here.

    I’m torn between closing previous open threads to further comment and leaving them open 🙂

    Welcome back!

    I fell off the wagon. Hope to be back in recovery again soon but for now here I am, not happy about it but unable to make myself walk away. Horrible lack of self-control.

  4. Andy

    Government Internet Trolls Are Paid To Use Psychological Influencing On You
    http://yournewswire.com/government-internet-trolls-are-paid-to-use-psychological-influencing-on-you/

    “If you’ve ever been attacked by what are known as internet trolls and wondered if they were being paid to attack you, you might be closer to the truth than you realized.

    Thanks to Edward Snowden, we know that the government actually employs and pays internet trolls to comment on YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook, among other sites. Often, they are paid to ‘guide’ the conversation with government-supported beliefs and propaganda.”

  5. JamesT

    The number of “libertarians” spouting DNC talking points is mind blowing. Rockwell’s not a “Russian agent” he’s just a hot head populist. Yeah no joke about sock puppets Andy. If Weld is dropped I wonder who would replace him? Could Johnson redeem himself? Doubtful.

  6. paulie Post author

    Rockwell’s not a “Russian agent” he’s just a hot head populist.

    He’s a second hand dealer in Russian propaganda. That’s not the same thing as a Russian agent. And populist is a euphemism in this case. Rockwellites are not shy about musing about the “sheeple” and decrying democracy when it suits them. They only feign affection for populism when it happens to rise up in a wave of bigotry and prejudice. It’s not like they suddenly have decided to join the populist push for higher taxes on the super-rich or anything.

  7. Matt

    dL in last month’s thread:

    “Name names or shut the fuck up with your dirtbag accusations…You said the LP…Ron Paul is a red herring. Last ran as a LP candidate in 1988(30 years ago)”

    Don’t be dense. The issue is not Ron Paul himself per se, it’s the crypto and not so crypto racist elements that follow him like some kind of demigod. A lot of them are for Trump right now but many of them have been or still are hanging around the LP. And even otherwise decent people have allowed the ideas of haters and fellow travelers such as Hoppe, Molyneux, Cantwell and Gary North infect their thinking.

  8. Matt

    ” I doubt anyone currently in the LP subscribed to his early 90s newsletters, much less knew anything about them at the time. ”

    So you really believe none of the newsletters fans came over to the LP when Ron Paul ran as an LP candidate, or that none of them are still in the party?

  9. Matt

    “Out of the total number of newsletters put out under Ron Paul’s name there were only a small handful of issues that contained the controversial remarks ”

    That’s false. Only a few were brought up as evidence in the original New Republic article. They did a followup article with a whole bunch of other issues containing such remarks to prove a point. And even then they did not look at all of them.

    “James B. Powell – author of controversial Ron Paul newsletter”

    It would be foolish to believe that he was the only, sole author. A bunch of people collaborated there, including Rockwell, Rothbard and Ron Paul himself. Even if Powell had been the only newsletter author, it’s ridiculous to believe that Ron Paul did not find out about in all the years the newsletters went out, especially since he previously claimed he did write it himself and stood by it. Think about it, if Powell was the only guy who wrote that stuff, why wouldn’t Ron Paul say so? I could see him falling on a sword to protect Rockwell and/or Rothbard, but Powell?

  10. Matt

    “never heard of the second guy.”

    Search engines could have been your friend here;

    For example, try https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=david+macko+libertarian&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 or https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=david+macko+libertarian&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#q=david+macko+racism

    “Cantwell, to the best of my knowledge, has never been associated w/ the LP. ”

    He has been involved with the LP, including as a candidate, several times, and was seeking to take over LPNH as recently as last year.

    “The obvious name, if you want to name names, would be Augustus Invictus. ”

    True, but you just underscore the point; there are plenty of them.

    “Funny how Ron Paul put the passages out under his own name at the time, cashed the checks of people who paid for them, continued to claim authorship and defend the content years later in 1996, and only started blaming a rogue ghost writer in 2007.”

    Funny how? Is he a clown? Does Ron Paul amuse you? Tell me, what the fuck is so funny about Ron Paul? 🙂

  11. dL

    “me: I guess one of the benefits of posting pseudonymously is that non sequiturs and other absurdities won’t stick to you. I’ve not heard that WikiLeaks is a “KGB op,” but even if that were so, how that connects to the noise levels that the J/W have made should be kinda obvious to anyone paying attention.”

    You want to pay my monthly nut, I will reveal my identity to you. Otherwise, I will take some reasonable precautions against some of my more minority views re: American foreign policy, the american military and US domestic security organs having some unfavorable impact on my business life and/or my security state profile. I’m certainly not going to reveal it for the mere benefit of people like you.

    To me, you are exhibit A that someone posting under their own identity is not a prior restraint against posting absurdities and fabrications. Your claim that you have not heard “WikiLeaks is a “KGB op” is a duplicitous fabrication. “Wikileaks as Russian Intel Front” is the primary defense of the Clinton campaign against leaked DNC/Clinton Foundation emails. It is charge oft repeated by establishment media organs.

    The relationship to your crackpot lessarchy mental invention is clear. Your claim of progress via respect from on high(establishment media) is just mere doublethink on their part. I realize Orwell might be a bit too advanced for you , but for those not constrained by a seventh grade reading level, Orwell is generally recognized as one of the more astute political deconstructionists of the 20th century.

  12. Matt

    “Your claim that you have not heard “WikiLeaks is a “KGB op” is a duplicitous fabrication. “Wikileaks as Russian Intel Front” is the primary defense of the Clinton campaign against leaked DNC/Clinton Foundation emails. It is charge oft repeated by establishment media organs.”

    And it has some merit. Putin has an interest in destabilizing the US, eroding trust in the US electoral system and leadership, and/or electing a more friendly administration. Trump is clearly more Putin-friendly, they claim to admire each other, and may have shadowy business dealings together. It’s not precisely true that wikileaks is a Russian front, but they do publish leaks unearthed by Russian government backed hacking, and Assange and Putin alike share a fully justified animosity towards Hillary Clinton.

    If Clinton managed to hack Putin and his apparatus, wikileaks would probably publish that too, but the problem is that Putin, like Trump, is more or less embarrassment-proof in Russia. Russians already largely believe he is involved in everything from serial adultery to large scale theft, bribery and corruption to having his enemies assassinated and stealing elections when they are not already going his way, yet he is still very popular. What could a hack possibly unearth to undermine him there?

    Acknowledging the criminality, corruption and scheming of the Clintons does not have to involve whitewashing the reprehensible nature of the Putin-Trump axis of evil, and vice versa.

  13. dL

    “True, but you just underscore the point; there are plenty of them.”

    That’s three crackpots/con men..none of the successful. Who else?

    Meanwhile you support bringing in a GOP governor that supported prison privatization in the 1990s and another that was part of the 1980s Reagan justice department. Real world policy stuff that would guarantee you will never get anything more than the Republicans would get re: minority vote. Complaining about right-wing infiltration from the republicans may be a legitimate gripe…but it is not one offset by: “hey, let’s bring in some more republicans on the presidential ticket.”

  14. Matt

    “That’s three crackpots/con men..none of the successful. Who else?”

    I have no interest in repeating all the racist and otherwise bigoted garbage I have heard from LP members and leaders over the years. Some of it would take more effort to find than I care to put in and some of it was in private conversations so you’ll just have to take my word for it, or not.

    But, if you do need another obvious example, it was just this year or maybe last that LPLouisiana was touting Walter Block formally switching to LP, and not too long after that he started the idiotic horribly botched partial birth abortion known as “Libertarians for Trump” (or more accurately “libertarians” for fascism).

    “Meanwhile you support bringing in a GOP governor that supported prison privatization in the 1990s and another that was part of the 1980s Reagan justice department. ”

    Where did you get the idiotic notion I support them? I dislike them so much that I will most likely vote for Jill Stein this year, despite major policy differences on many important issues, and I voted Libertarian for decades.

    “Complaining about right-wing infiltration from the republicans may be a legitimate gripe…but it is not one offset by: “hey, let’s bring in some more republicans on the presidential ticket.”

    Thanks, we agree. Where did you get the idea we differ on that?

  15. George Phillies

    Liberty for America
    November 1, 2016
    Pre-election Issue

    This issue is the last before the election. It covers Presidential campaign finances associated with their most recent disclosure, covering October 1-19, 2016. The Johnson campaign actually has two campaign fund accounts, one being the normal presidential campaign fund and the other being the joint fundraising campaign fund.

    Johnson fundraising continued to fall.

    For the period in question, the presidential campaign committee began the Reporting Period with $1,283,891 cash on hand, raised $694,279, spent $876,731, and ended the reporting period with $1,101,439 cash on hand.

    The Victory Fund began the early October with $955,904, raised $507,431, spent $1,054,911, and ended the period with $408,424 cash on hand.

    The most noteworthy feature of these numbers is that the amount of money raised has declined precipitously from the previous months. Not quite $700,000 in 19 days corresponds to a bit over $1 million for the month. Of course, a good fund drive can indeed bring in extra cash, but the reported rate for the Gary Johnson 2016 campaign is far below what had been coming in in prior months. For the 19 days covered by the report, Johnson 2016 had 11 donors of $1000 or more, including one donor of the legal maximum of $2700.

    There is a further interesting feature to the reports. The victory fund, on the last day of the reporting period, transferred $634,547 to the Johnson 2016 campaign. That transfer was nearly 2/3 of their total spending for the period. The transfer was presumably received on the next day or later, because it was not reported by the Gary Johnson 2016 campaign as income for the period. Readers may wonder why the transfer was needed, given that the Johnson victory fund was doing a fine job of spending money on advertising.

    A further minor interesting datum is that the Johnson 2016 campaign reported having raised $10,308,873 and therefore had crossed the threshold for securing Secret Service protection for the candidates. However, there was a minor difficulty. The candidates are traveling on normal airliners. The Secret Service comes equipped with loaded machine guns, teargas, I gather hand grenades, and for all we know surface-to-air missiles. These technical devices are not welcome on passenger airliners because after all people carrying guns on airliners could be air pirates. As a result, the Secret Service needs for its agents to be supplied with travel on chartered aircraft, for which, by the way, the taxpayers will not pay. Now for the Democratic and Republican candidates, this is a nonissue, because they have chartered aircraft and are using it for travel at all times. The Secret Service people are then welcome on board as extra passengers. In contrast, in order to use the Secret Service protection, the libertarian campaign would have to charter an airliner, which is not a cheap operation.

    So where did the money go? The reader will note that no money is reported as going to the Utah campaign management operation.

    Johnson 2016 had more than 60 people listed as consultants of some sort, getting paid between them $327,378, nearly a quarter of all spending, including $258,809 for campaign consulting, $44,387 for social media, $12,937 for fundraising consulting, $5670 for ballot access consulting, and $5575 for media relations. That’s almost 38% for staff.

    For Advertising: The grand total for Advertising was $283,707. IVC Media received $163,406. Facebook was paid $66,856. Evan Twede,inc received $24,220. Snapchat received $17,148. Prime source received $12,858. Power and Industry received $7401. Printing by IDV GRAFX cost $6947. $4000 went to visual media. Transcend Creative cost $3448. City Creek Entertainment received $1845. No Monkey received $1468. Snapchat received $1361. That’s 32% for advertising.

    Software, primarily to Hustle, Inc., and Nation Builder, cost $68,570.

    The candidates travelled. Venues cost $48,886. Airfare, hotels, and the like came to $32,003. Catering and staging cost $3727, and Staging cost $2379, a total of $86,995.

    Ballot Access spending came to $13,000.

    The costs of handling money included online fundraising support $3664, the accountant $23,976, $700 for Merchant Service processing, and $1203 for Bank Fees, a total of $58,058.

    Other costs included Legal Fees-$16,370, insurance $10,109, Fundraising fees to Avandale Inc $9737, Rent – $1672, and Cable $152, a total of $38,040.

    Spending by the Johnson Victory Fund was dominated by $634,547 being transferred to Gary Johnson 2016. There was also a $20,000 reimbursement on a donation.

    In addition, money was spent on advertising:
    Printing $146,167
    Facebook – $59,828
    Google – $88,019

    Raising money costs money.
    Avondale Finance, 4 Longfellow, Boston received $41,474.
    Other Fundraising Consulting – $28,412
    Paypal, Sameday, and Shopify received $16,031 for money transfer issues.
    DB Capital Strategies for legal and compliance issues received $11,000.
    Catering – $4053.
    Event Cost – $3596

    60% of the money disbursed simply went to the other campaign. Most of the rest went to advertising.

    The author suspects that we may see a December or January surprise.

  16. dL

    “Don’t be dense. The issue is not Ron Paul himself per se, it’s the crypto and not so crypto racist elements that follow him like some kind of demigod. ”

    I’m not. The original question pertained to the LP, not the broader libertarian movement. I’ve been a critic of the Hoppean/paleo contingent for years. And that contingent has spread/grown. But by and large the LP has immunized itself from it. However, the continued dalliances w/ GOP respectability politics and federal welfare money will bring them in like flies.

  17. dL

    “And it has some merit. Putin has an interest in destabilizing the US, eroding trust in the US electoral system and leadership, and/or electing a more friendly administration. Trump is clearly more Putin-friendly, they claim to admire each other, and may have shadowy business dealings together. It’s not precisely true that wikileaks is a Russian front, but they do publish leaks unearthed by Russian government backed hacking, and Assange and Putin alike share a fully justified animosity towards Hillary Clinton.”

    Well, I share an animosity towards Hillary Clinton, too. It doesn’t make me a Russian Intel operative nor an ally of Putin nor a collaborator with the Russian government. As a programmer, one-time hacker enthusiast, I’ve known about Julian Assange for years…going back to the 1990s. I’ve known about wikileaks since its inception. Assange is not a government plant. Wikileaks is not a government front. If it was, it would be one of the more elaborate deep cover operations in spook history..one that would have had to originate back in the days of the Yeltsin regime with the amazing foresight to not only predict the rise of Putin and the Russian reversion back to authoritarianism but the rise of Hillary Clinton sometime in the earlier part of the 21st century as a Putin adversary. Of course, with all the massive publications globally of leaks for a decade covering the spectrum of the world’s governments/corporations being a mere ingenious and expensive diversionary cover for the real target all along: Hillary Clinton.

    Or you could go with this: Hillary Clinton’s use of her own private IT setup for email correspondence to evade federal compliance laws set her up for security penetration by buttload of actors, state and non-state. Among the non-state actors was Guccifer, a Romanian hacker who targeted celebrities and politicians and who was extradited to the US last year for various computer crimes. During interrogation, he was the one who who initially revealed Clinton’s little private network setup (although that was not why he was extradited). Another non-state actor was Guccifer 2.0(using his hacker alias as a homage to his predecessor) who has verifiably outed himself as the wikileaks source for both the DNC and Clinton Foundation hacks.

    The attack vector for the Clinton Foundation Emails was John Podesta, whose own newbie security practices–losing unsecured mobile devices and being a dupe for phishing scams–made it pretty easy to gain access to those emails/messages for just about anyone.

    Finally, in regards to motivation. Why Clinton and not Trump? Is the reason an advanced 8th dimensional chess geopolitical calculation by Putin? Or simply because the original Guccifer likely passed the Clinton vulnerability around underground circles and when he was extradited, someone saw an fairly easy opportunity to not only get back at the US govt but also increase his own fame?

    SUMMARY: Wikileaks as a Russian intel front has ZERO merit. NONE. Anyone who propagate that tripe is either (i) an ignorant tin-foil conspiracy theorist dupe of the highest order (ii) red-baiting Clinton apologist (iii) red-baiting US intel complex rent-seeker

  18. dL

    “I have no interest in repeating all the racist and otherwise bigoted garbage I have heard from LP members and leaders over the years. Some of it would take more effort to find than I care to put in and some of it was in private conversations so you’ll just have to take my word for it, or not.”

    No, I don’t count unverifiable anecdotal evidence of private conservations unless it is backed by public evidence, e;g. like a public platform that is clearly racist or questionably racist. And I’m also restricting the conversation–per the original accusation by Dlugos–to the LP and not the broader LP movement. I’m not talking about Lew Rockwell, Hans Hoppe, et al.

    “But, if you do need another obvious example, it was just this year or maybe last that LPLouisiana was touting Walter Block…”

    Again broader libertarian movement….And Block’s actions disqualify him–at least in my mind–from that broader movement.

    “Where did you get the idiotic notion I support them?”

    Well, I apologize. I don’t who “Matt” is. If you link to your alias/screen name to a set of writings/opinions(like a blog), then I will usually spend a couple of minutes looking it over to make sure I get sense of your intellectual orientation before making s assumption of that sort. Otherwise this site’s format makes it it difficult to to follow someone jumping in on a conversation.

  19. Jill Pyeatt

    I’m also fairly confident that Russia didn’t do the hacking. Why would they, seriously? Doesn’t Putin have other things to worry about?

    My sources are continuing to report the hacking was done because of so many insiders having knowledge of Hillary’s law-breaking and the corruption of the Obama administration. Whether someone there did the hacking or simply provided access to someone else isn’t something I’ll speculate on. The FBI has announced today there is no evidence that Russia did the hacking.

    There also continue to be many reports that people within the FBI have been furious at Comey’s lack of investigation and subsequent non-indictments of Hillary. Many people think he realized that Trump could very well win, and this was just a huge CYA.

    The above makes much more sense to me than the Russians doing the hacking. Putin has denied it, and has warned Hillary that she needs to stop blaming them. That’s a threat that I think should be taken seriously.

  20. José C

    It looks to me Glenn Beck does not know who he is going to vote for. He might vote for Castle. He might vote for McMullin. He is not going to vote for Johnson.

  21. José C

    According to an article in TheLibertarianRepublican website, Republican Steven Palazzo, U.S. Representative of Mississippi’s 4th District, is refusing to debate with his Democratic and Libertarian apponents.

    The article says: Last week, Palazzo skipped two events, a debate Wednesday night and a forum Thursday, each at the University of Southern Mississippi. Libertarian Ric McCluskey and Democrat Mark Gladney, challengers for the seat, attended both.

    According to Sun-Herald, Gladney condemned the Republican’s no-show, stating he “dodges everything,” including his constituents, tough decisions, and the debates. “It smacks of elitism [. . .] The voters are getting screwed right now.”

    Meanwhile, Libertarian candidate Ric McCluskey was even more forceful saying “It’s pretty simple. He’s a coward.” McCluskey joked in August that Palazzo was like a rare Pokemon, stating “Due to the recent success of Pokemon Go, our campaign team is now developing an app known as Palazzo Go. You have to find Congressman Palazzo actually visiting constituents in the 4th CD. I guarantee our version to be much more difficult.”

    This is a great response by Libertarian Ric McCluskey. As to the Republican refusing to debate his opponents who are we to complain when Gary Johnson our candidate for President refuses to debate his opponents.

  22. José C

    It seems to me McMullin is putting most (all) of his chips in Utah. He wants to win the state. If he does this will be the first time an alternative party candidate for President wins a state since 1968. it is going to be very close.

  23. paulie Post author

    As to the Republican refusing to debate his opponents who are we to complain when Gary Johnson our candidate for President refuses to debate his opponents.

    He just debated Stein on the Travis Smiley show.

  24. Andy

    Rick Adams said: “Las Vegas newspaper endorses Moore over his duopoly opponents

    http://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-the-assembly

    Gee, I wonder if the fact that Sheldon Adelson owns this newspaper, The Las Vegas Review Journal, and the fact that Sheldon Adelson is going to be one of the people who is set to profiteer off of the proposed football stadium. has anything to do with Assemblyman John Moore voting yes on the tax increase for the football stadium.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheldon_Adelson

    :Sheldon Gary Adelson (pronounced /?æd?ls?n/; born August 4, 1933) is an American casino magnate. He is the founder, chairman and chief executive officer of Las Vegas Sands Corporation, which owns the Marina Bay Sands in Singapore, and is the parent company of Venetian Macao Limited, which operates The Venetian Resort Hotel Casino and the Sands Expo and Convention Center. He also owns the Israeli daily newspaper Israel Hayom, and the Las Vegas Review-Journal.[2] Adelson, a lifelong donor and philanthropist to a variety of causes, founded with his wife’s initiative the Adelson Foundation.

    As of August 2016, Adelson was listed by Forbes as having a fortune of US$32.2 billion.[3] He is a major contributor to Republican Party candidates.[4][5] He has been by far the largest donor, of any party, in both the 2012 and 2016 presidential campaigns.[6]”

    John Moore is a piece of shit sell out scumbag.

  25. Be Rational

    RICHMOND, Ind. – Indiana’s Libertarian Party gubernatorial candidate Rex Bell has been taken to a Richmond hospital after complaining of illness while talking to newspaper reporters.

    Any update?

  26. Be Rational

    Rex Bell for Governor
    5 hours ago.

    While at a media event in Richmond, Libertarian candidate for Governor Rex Bell suffered a minor stroke. After undergoing initial tests, he was transported to Methodist hospital in Indianapolis for further testing.

    Mr. Bell is receiving excellent care, even spending the morning joking with doctors and nurses. He is fully aware and coherent, communicating as normal. He is expected a full recovery and to be released soon.
    The Bell family is touched by the outpouring of support, and they wish to thank Hoosiers for their thoughts, prayers, and kind words. We continue to ask that the family be allowed to focus on Mr. Bell’s health and a speedy recovery.

  27. JamesT

    Saw this on FB. Should we vote for the LP ticket since it’s clearly the last thing Bill Weld actually wants? Seriously the best argument to vote for GJ I’ve heard at this point is it will spite Bill Weld.

  28. Antirevolutionary

    Can someone post this article? An interview with the presidential candidates of the Prohibition, Socialist and American Solidarity parties. Two very old, one very new.

  29. José

    He just debated Stein on the Travis Smiley show.

    I just saw the Fox news show Kennedy at 5:23 PST on thurdsay November 3 where Lisa kennedy is interviewing Jill Stien. Kennedy mentioned she had invited Gary Johnson and Jill Stien to participtate in a presidential candidates debate to be shown on Fox News with her as moderator. She mentioned Gary Johnson declined the invitation. This is not the first time I have heard that Gary Johnson declined invitations to debate his apponents.

    Myself and others wished Gary johnson had not been afraid to debate his apponents and that he had accepted invitaions to debate his apponents. He could have participated in about five different debates shown on CNN, C-Span, Fox News, PBS, and possibly other television networks. These have been missed opportunities.

    Those who argue Gary Johnson and by extension any Libertarian Party presidential candidate should only debate Democrats or Republicans have lost the contest. This view tells the Democratic and Republican parties all they have to do is not invite the Libertarian candidate for President and the Libertarian Party candidate will not participate in any/u> presidential candidates debate. They do not want us in their debates. Our candidate not debating anyone does not change that fact.

    The Democratic and Republican parties are telling the American people screw you. How wonerful would it have been to see a debate on Fox News, C-Span, CNN, or some other television network a debate between Johnson, Stein, and McMullin. It was have been priceless and the American people would have been better off for it.

    Kennedy mentioned the Commision on Presidential Debates is a cartel. Jill Stien agreed and so do I.

  30. langa

    This thread (and others here recently) are a perfect illustration of the hypocrisy of many in the LP. On the one hand, when it comes to actual libertarian principles, we are supposed to tolerate, and even embrace, an almost unlimited number of deviations from them, even when those deviations come from the people chosen to represent the party to the public. On the other hand, when it comes to certain cultural issues, which have nothing to do with libertarianism, we are supposed to shun anyone who deviates in any minor way from the “3×5 index card of allowable opinion” (as Tom Woods calls it). “Purity tests” based on actual libertarian principles are unacceptable, but even stricter purity tests based on unrelated cultural matters are not only acceptable, but essential, to preserve the “image” of the party.

    My own opinion is quite a bit different, and can be summed up as follows: Fuck the stupid culture war, and if you care more about fighting the culture war than you care about fighting the welfare state, the warfare state, and the police state, then fuck you, too. With “libertarians” like you, who needs statists?

    To be clear, when Rockwell and the so-called “paleo” crowd (or, for that matter, any other subset of the libertarian movement) advocates for non-libertarian positions (e.g. immigration restrictions, or voting for Trump, or whatever), by all means, excoriate them till your heart’s content. But when it comes to dragging up shit that happened 25 years ago, or throwing around vague allegations of “crypto-racism” and other such unprovable garbage, give that shit a rest. It’s a non-argument, akin to hardcore SJWs who respond to anything they disagree with by sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling, “White privilege! White privilege! White privilege!!!” When self-described “libertarians” stoop to such blatantly anti-intellectual smear tactics in lieu of real arguments, it makes the whole movement look ridiculous.

    And that goes double for the tactic of claiming that anyone who opposes Hillary’s sabre-rattling rhetoric toward Russia is simply a puppet of Putin. It’s an old tactic that has often been used by the pro-war Establishment to suppress opposition, from portraying those who opposed American entry into World War II as Nazi sympathizers/collaborators to accusing those who opposed the wars in Southeast Asia as closet Communists. It was bullshit then, and it’s bullshit now. It’s entirely possible to believe that a foreign leader (like Putin) is a bad guy, yet still oppose antagonizing him and trying to provoke a war with him. In fact, it’s not only possible, it’s the only reasonable (and, in fact, the only libertarian) position.

  31. robert capozzi

    L: we are supposed to tolerate, and even embrace, an almost unlimited number of deviations from them, even when those deviations come from the people chosen to represent the party to the public.

    me: Who says that’s what you are “supposed” to do?

    Is that crickets I hear?

    Part of the challenge of “deviationism” is the deeper question of what “principles” are chosen and how one applies those principles. A def. of “principles” is: “a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning.”

    So, even if one chooses to subscribe to the NAP, one could apply a chain of reasoning that suggests advocating for what MNR called “transitions” without necessarily explicitly advocating nonarchism in a political context.

    Many Ls, especially NAPsters, view “principles” in a semi-religious way, as a form of commandments, the violation of which is sinful and evil. Conversion to NAPsterism might well have worked to significantly roll back the State, but my very direct question to NAPsters is: How much longer does the experiment have to run before you acknowledge that widespread adoption of NAPsterism has failed? Will another 45 years suffice for you to acknowledge that the vast majority of people are not NAPsters?

    Or could we use the word “principles” as a general idea, and then select from a range of specific ideas as potentially advancing the social order in the direction of lessarchy? I’m fascinated that so many NAPsters find this more practical approach to be so threatening.

  32. langa

    Who says that’s what you are “supposed” to do?

    The Johnson/Weld apologists, and more broadly, the “moderate” wing of the LP, who always insist that, no matter how watered down the message becomes, the problem is that it was still too “extreme” or “fringe” or, to put it simply, not watered down enough. Anyone who dares to question the constant deviations is excoriated as an uncompromising purist, or as wanting to impose litmus tests, conduct witch hunts, and so forth. Yet these charges are never leveled at those who insist that candidates must toe the line of political correctness, the line of conventional wisdom, and so forth. It’s a blatant double standard.

  33. robert capozzi

    L, I don’t think there is any hypocrisy because I don’t know anyone “who insist[s] that candidates must toe the line of political correctness, the line of conventional wisdom, and so forth.” It’s not about “insistence” or “must toe the line.” It’s more about a question of wisdom and judgment. It’s unwise to run for office positioned as a wild wo/man.

    Now, DJT — if he wins — may well be an exception. But even there, DJT backed off his “NATO is obsolete” stance quite quickly when challenged to a “Europe’s gotta pay” position.

    No moderate that I know of is “excoriating” the extremist approach to L politics. You just seem hyper-defensive in accepting critique. NAPsterism is being challenged, both at the foundation and stylistically.

    btw, this YouTube show is great for this sort of thing. Rubin is a liberal moving in a L direction, but tentatively so. He notes that he watched the LP convention in which the conventioneers were obsessed with drivers licenses and legalizing heroin.

    You may find him to be evil, but it’s great to see how an articulate, thoughtful liberal becoming a lessarchist.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqOKUB_KhDE

  34. Curt Boyd

    Is there a prediction thread for the election? Nationally, I think Johnson will get close to 5%, Stein will get a little over 2%. McMullin will finish second in Utah. The rest combined will probably get 1%.

    I think the Libertarian Party’s nomination is Austin Peterson’s for the taking in 2020, although I’m not sure who will run against him. Others can speak for that better than I can. If Johnson gets 5%, and the Libertarians get federal money, there may be more Johnson/Weld types coming out of the woodwork to run.

    I think it will be more interesting to see what the Green Party does. Jill Stein is definitely a Ralph Nader type figure, in that she will be difficult to follow as the party’s nominee in four years.

    Also, McMullin/Finn are sending pretty serious signals that they might start a party to combat the Trump forces. If they do, it could potentially spell the end of the Constitution Party, who I feel have missed a big opportunity this year to get on more ballots.

  35. JamesT

    I think the ASP might spell the doom of the CP. The american conservatives most recent article had several of their writers writing them in and nobody supported Castle.

    Also holy crap the spirit cooking thing. Maybe AJ isn’t always nuts.

  36. Jill Pyeatt

    “Also holy crap the spirit cooking thing.”

    Thanks for bringing this up. This has been so upsetting to me that I need to stop reading Wikileaks for a while. I knew they had some bad things to reveal, but it’s much worse than even I thought.

  37. JamesT

    Not to mention they use pedo code language. I’d which is more scary these people or how right AJ is turning out to be. We truly live in the darkest timeline.

  38. Antirevolutionary

    Great comments, James T. The ASP and the Constitution Party need to come up with some sort of compromise on immigration and health care and get together. The ASP does already support more state and local control of economic and social programs; just prefers that most states have a bunch of them, which helps bridge the gap between the Left and the Right. I actually think it could be done.

    In addition to that Cracked article, can someone post the TAC presidential symposium as an article? A bunch of endorsements for Castle, one for Maturen and one for McMullin; none for Castle or Hoefling.

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-american-conservative-presidential-symposium/

  39. Bondurant

    Here’s a recent interview with Bev Harris from Black Box Voting on a recent episode of Coast to Coast ATM. The topic is voting machines, how they can be manipulated and some ideas of reforming elections and reducing fraud. The interview kicks off around the 8:45 mark.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ino_TIC9H9k

  40. Jill Pyeatt

    LOL, Paulie. I’m certainly not supporting Trump. It’s just that I think nothing is redeemable at all with her.

    I ended up voting for Gary.

  41. paulie Post author

    I’m certainly not supporting Trump. It’s just that I think nothing is redeemable at all with her.

    Agreed on both counts.

    I ended up voting for Gary.

    Cue Andy in 3…2…1…

  42. Jose C

    In Idaho Darrell Castle received more votes than Scott Copeland. Darrell Castle 4,411 – Scott Copeland 2,368. Priceless!

  43. Matt

    That’s because he posted it on election night as results were coming in. Hence that phrase “right now.”

  44. George Phillies

    Totals as of 11/13 with perhaps 4 or 7 million votes to be counted:
    Donald J. Trump Michael R. Pence Republican 60,589,309 47.01% 290 53.9%
    Hillary Clinton Tim Kaine Democratic 61,289,897 47.55% 228 42.4%
    Gary Johnson William F. Weld Libertarian 4,191,755 3.25% 0 0.0%
    Dr. Jill Stein Ajamu Baraka Green 1,267,760 0.98% 0 0.0%
    Evan McMullin Mindy Finn Independent 490,524 0.38% 0 0.0%
    Darrell L. Castle Scott Bradley Constitution 183,864 0.14% 0 0.0%
    Gloria LaRiva Eugene Puryear Socialism and Liberation 48,103 0.04% 0 0.0%
    Rocky de la Fuente Michael Steinberg American Delta 32,324 0.03% 0 0.0%

  45. Andy

    “Alex Jones is completely delusional about Trump. Very sad. ”

    Could be true. Time will tell after Trump gets into office.

    I actually somewhat blame the Libertarian Party for this situation. Why? Because the Libertarian Party could be, and should be, and to a certain extent is, America’s “third party” choice, and the Libertarian Party has been screwing things up for years. The party should have continued the growth trajectory that it was on in the 1990’s up until around 2000 or 2001, yet the party failed to do this. During the whole build up to the war in Iraq, the party only took a timid anti-war stance. The party was too cowardly to ever officially embrace 9/11 Truth (no resolutions to even call for re-opening the investigation). The party was too timid to ever pass an impeach Bush resolution. The party failed to capitalize on the Ron Paul r3VOLution in 2008 by nominating the Bob Barr/Wayne Root ticket (this made the party look like a bunch of out of touch, unprincipled, sell outs). The party nominated milquetoast Gary Johnson/Jim Gray in 2012, and then made the mistake of nominating Johnson again in 2016, and this time teaming him up with CFR neo-con gun grabber, warmonger, and establishment apologist, William Weld. The LNC has wasted lots of time and resources on things that have not grown the party. Multiple state party affiliates have gone through periods of major internal dysfunction (Oregon, California, Pennsylvania, etc…). The party has FAILED to elect anyone to a seat in a state legislature in 16 years (and even back in 2000, the last a Libertarian was elected to a seat in state legislature, that person ended up quitting the party and switching to Republican a few months into their term, with disagreement with Libertarian position on gay marriage being the stated reason for switching). The Libertarian Party has not elected anyone to the office of Sheriff since Bill Masters (which was like 16 years ago, and this opportunity failed to create any radical changes). The Libertarian Party has FAILED to take over any local government boards/councils since the part briefly held a majority on the Big Water, Utah city council back in the 1980’s (for maybe 2 years). The Libertarian Party has FAILED to promote anything that people can do in their regular lives to move society towards more freedom like jury nullification, tax resistance, alternative currencies, etc…

    So we, as in people who are members of the Libertarian Party, have FAILED to provide to provide the public with viable choices, not just for President, but for much of anything. The Libertarian Party, if it had not been run in such a dysfunctional manner, would be many times larger than it is right now. I do not think that it is unrealistic at all to say that we could have over 100,000 dues paying members right now. We SHOULD HAVE actual libertarian Libertarians running for President and Vice President. The 2008 presidential ticket was a waste, as was 2012 and 2016. Many people associate the party’s presidential ticket with the entire party, as in they see the presidential ticket as our public face, so it is pretty freaking sad that for the last three presidential elections, the people on our presidential ticket do not even truly represent Libertarian Party membership ranks.

    Lots of Libertarians are probably celebrating getting 3.25% of the vote for President, but I see this as a “sugar high” in that as it lacks any real substance behind it. Due the dynamics of this election, there was potential for the Libertarian presidential ticket to get a lot more votes than what they ended up receiving, plus if you look at what happened in down ticket races, the Libertarian Party won very few elections to local offices, and once again failed to elect anyone to a seat in a state legislature, and we had LESS candidates running this time than we did 16 years ago, so we have made little to no real progress in this area, as we have less candidates running in down ticket races, and we have elected less people to low level offices than we used to have, and we have failed to elect anyone to any significant offices where they can get lots of publicity implement any real changes.

    So considering that the Libertarian Party has basically FAILED to live up to its potential, or to even live up to its own stated principles, how much can we really blame people for seeking other alternatives, or for not being involved at all?

  46. Andy

    “get lots of publicity implement any real changes.”

    Should read, “get lots of publicity or implement any real changes.”

  47. Andy

    “Lots of Libertarians are probably celebrating getting 3.25% of the vote for President, but I see this as a ‘sugar high’ in that as it lacks any real substance behind it. Due the dynamics of this election, there was potential for the Libertarian presidential ticket to get a lot more votes than what they ended up receiving,”

    Another reason that this is a “sugar high” is that our party’s ticket did a poor job of representing what the party actually believes in, as they campaigned on multiple Libertarian platform deviations, and even in areas where they were at least somewhat aligned with the Libertarian Party’s platform, they watered down the message.

    What’s the point of getting votes if there is not a strong libertarian message behind it? Just getting votes for the sake of getting votes in an exercise in pointlessness.

    If any Libertarians think that our goal is just “getting votes” – even if it means throwing the party’s platform under a bus – they should go to the Democratic or Republican parties.

  48. paulie Post author

    Could be true. Time will tell after Trump gets into office.

    Because what, he’s a blank slate? This is ridiculous. We can already see, even before he gets into office… Giuliani or John Bolton are the top most likely choices for Secretary of State. Newt Gingrich is likely to have a high level appointment. Trump’s already said he wants to kill Snowden, and to ramp up the domestic surveillance state. He worships the FBI and the police, believes we need more torture and to kill families of detainees. Snowden also says the surveillance state will grow under Trump.

    I actually somewhat blame the Libertarian Party for this situation.

    Don’t be absurd. However good or bad the Libertarian Party is has absolutely no bearing with being delusional about Trump like Alex Jones as well as some libertarians are being. Trump remains the same turd he is and would still be the same turd if the LP did not exist, or if the LP ran Badnarik again. However good or bad the LP is, is no excuse for supporting Trump or for being completely delusional about what he stands for.

  49. paulie Post author

    Another reason that this is a “sugar high” is that our party’s ticket did a poor job of representing what the party actually believes in, as they campaigned on multiple Libertarian platform deviations, and even in areas where they were at least somewhat aligned with the Libertarian Party’s platform, they watered down the message.

    That’s a great reason to support someone who wants to appoint people like Bolton, Gingrich and Giuliani to high level positions, “bomb them and take their oil,” have 45% tariffs, build a wall, round up millions of immigrants and millions more of their American citizen family members and deport them all, end Muslim immigration, put American Muslims under surveillance, encourage more police militarization, brutality and racism, make stop and frisk a nationwide policy, torture detainees and kill their families, and on and on and on…right? Come on.

  50. paulie Post author

    Paulie, I don’t see that your remarks have much to do with Andy’s critique.

    His original post was something delusion by Alex Jones about Trump pardoning Snowden. I responded that Jones is being delusional about Trump. Andy’s response was that the LP isn’t libertarian enough, therefore some liberty-leaning people now like Trump. My response is that whatever the LP does or does not do it does not make a fascist such as Trump any more libertarian or any more worthy of support.

  51. Andy

    I do not know if Trump will pardon Snowdon or not, but I am skeptical that he will.

    None of us know what Trump is going to do for sure because he has not even been sworn into office yet, and this will not happen until January.

    My point was that the Libertarian Party has failed not only to live up to its stated principles, but also has also failed strategically.

    Look at the alternative that we gave people for President and Vice President this year, Gary Johnson and Bill Weld. What a freaking joke. Any ticket with Weld on it is like voting for Mitt Romney.

    If you saw Hillary Clinton as a grave threat to this country, which she was, can you blame them for supporting Trump, especially when Trump appeared to be anti-establishment, and since there were no other viable alternatives on the ballot?

    Supporting Trump may turn out to have been a bad strategy (and once again, I did NOT vote for Trump), but it is not like voting for Johnson/Weld was a good strategy either.

  52. Andy

    Johnson/Weld were not going to stop Hillary, and they were not even doing a good job at spreading the Libertarian message.

    Trump may turn out to be about as bad as Hillary once he gets into office, but at least Trump is kind of a wild card, as in we do not know for sure what he is going to do until he gets in there.

    Libertarians really do not have a lot of room to whine when we offer lame, unprincipled tickets like Johnson/Weld.

  53. George Phillies

    Paulie,
    Thank you for reminding us about the utility of comment numbers. I thought you were responding to some of his other remarks. Sorry for the confusion.
    George

  54. paulie Post author

    I do not know if Trump will pardon Snowdon or not,

    See links above.

    None of us know what Trump is going to do for sure because he has not even been sworn into office yet

    We have what he campaigned on, we know some of the people he is surrounded with and seems like to appoint to senior positions, we see what’s going on with the transition.

    If you saw Hillary Clinton as a grave threat to this country, which she was, can you blame them for supporting Trump

    Yes. Yes I can, and do. Trump is a grave to this country and the whole world.

    especially when Trump appeared to be anti-establishment

    Much in the same way as Hitler appeared to be anti-establishment in the Weimar Republic, except that Hitler didn’t have nukes.

    and since there were no other viable alternatives on the ballot?

    It doesn’t matter who else is on the ballot, no one should ever support Trump in any way, shape or form.

    Supporting Trump may turn out to have been a bad strategy

    Understatement of forever.

    once again, I did NOT vote for Trump

    But you are making excuses as if he’s somehow better than Clinton. He’s not.

    it is not like voting for Johnson/Weld was a good strategy either.

    Once again, Johnson/Weld is completely irrelevant to how shitty Trump is, and in no way excuses idiotic schoolgirl gushing such as Alex Jones as well as some severely confused libertarians are showing towards Trump.

  55. paulie Post author

    Trump may turn out to be about as bad as Hillary once he gets into office

    Or, you know, worse.

    but at least Trump is kind of a wild card

    Why not just put an orangutang on meth in charge of launching the nukes? That would be the same sort of wild card.

    Libertarians really do not have a lot of room to whine when we offer lame, unprincipled tickets like Johnson/Weld.

    I disagree. We do have a right to be concerned, and should be very, very concerned, regardless of who the LP ran. Trump is not any less dangerous because of who the LP did or did not run.

  56. Jill Pyeatt

    So many of you are unhappy with Trump (well, all of you, actually) that I thought I’d make another suggestion of something individuals can do to minimize the impact of the next 4 years. Trump is currently picking his administration. It looks like he’s considering John Bolton for Secretary of State.

    For those of you who Tweet, here’s a campaign you can join: https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2016/11/14/stop-john-bolton-on-twitter/

    If you don’t tweet, maybe a call to the White House would be in order.

    Trump will even be worse if he surrounds himself with the bad apples from prior administrations.

  57. paulie Post author

    Unfortunately, it’s not “all of you.” Quite a few people here are either outright Trump supporters such as Saturn or think he may not be so bad or that he is better than Clinton or whatever. And while I fully agree that Bolton would be a terrible choice, the other likely choice being discussed is Giuliani, who is also awful. If we somehow dodge both of those bullets, it may be Gingrich. In other words, good choices will just not be coming from Trump.

  58. Thane Eichenauer

    Paulie,
    There is no knowing until a candidate is selected and publicly and officially announced. Until then there is only a cloud of speculation, uncertainty and rumor to be had.

  59. paulie Post author

    We already know who his surrogates and spokespeople were during the campaign. We already know he appointed racist piece of shit Steve Bannon to a top white house post. We already know he is trying to get his kids and son in law top level security briefings, and will give it to them once he’s sworn in…all while they are assuming control of his businesses, and he knows damn well what those businesses are and what they are doing – massive conflicts of interest all over the place. So why would you expect anything good? It’s going to be a shit show of unprecedented proportions.

    What kind of illegal abuses of government power will he undertake to go after his long list of enemies? He’s a very vindictive individual and there are a lot of ways for federal agencies to mess with people. What about all the lawsuits hanging out there against him, against Trump University, or possibly by women who he sexually abused? Will he carry out his threats to sue them? Is it true that Putin is actually blackmailing him? I mean, I haven’t actually seen the videos of him in full nazi SS officer uniform, beating and raping pre-teen girls, but then I’m not in the Russian intelligence agencies.

    And how about the woman who says he raped her when she was 13 and made another girl disappear, as well as told her the same could happen to her? The last I read was that the case was to get a court hearing in December. If the woman hasn’t gone back underground due to the threat against her life and the lives of her family, how will this impact the Trump presidency? I doubt a Republican Congress would impeach him…or would they?

    I’m not a big fan of the KKK, the FBI or whatever the KGB is called these days. And I’m not a fan of the president they helped elect. Any libertarians who are… are either profoundly confused or not actually libertarians at all.

  60. Andy

    ” Any libertarians who are… are either profoundly confused or not actually libertarians at all.”

    The same can be said about libertarians who supported Johnson/Weld, or Barr/Root.

  61. Thane Eichenauer

    Paulie> The last I read was that the case was to get a court hearing in December.

    Case withdrawn.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/donald-trump-rape-claim-allegation-jane-doe-suit-dropped-us-election-a7401411.html
    http://conservative101.com/the-woman-who-accused-trump-of-rape-at-13-years-old-was-just-proven-to-be-a-liar/

    Paulie> What kind of illegal abuses of government power will he undertake to go after his long list of enemies?

    Listening to Reason’s interview with Ken White on that topic is on my to-do list.

    https://soundcloud.com/reasonmag/will-president-trump-prosecute-his-political-enemies-qa-popehats-ken-white

    Paulie> Is it true that Putin is actually blackmailing him?

    Answer> Again, there is only a cloud of speculation, uncertainty and rumor to be had at this exact moment.

    All hail hero Eric Cartman, asker of questions!

    http://southpark.cc.com/clips/255332/brave-enough-to-ask-questions

  62. langa

    I actually agree with both Andy and Paulie.

    On one hand, I agree with Andy that the LP completely dropped the ball this year. (They also dropped the ball in 2008 and 2012, but this year was much worse, partly because it was a much better opportunity, and partly because Weld is by far the least libertarian person ever to appear on the LP presidential ticket. In fact, I didn’t think it could get much worse than Root, but Weld makes Root look like Harry Browne.)

    On the other hand, I agree with Paulie that the crapiness of the LP ticket wasn’t a good reason to vote for Trump. There were many better options. Voting for a different 3rd party candidate, casting a write-in vote, or simply not voting at all would have all been better choices than voting for Trump, or the supposedly “Libertarian” ticket. (By the way, I don’t share Paulie’s belief that Trump will be significantly worse than Clinton would have been, but I also don’t share the beliefs of some libertarians that he will be significantly better, either. As I’ve said all along, they are “six of one and half a dozen of the other.”)

  63. Andy

    langa said: “On the other hand, I agree with Paulie that the crapiness of the LP ticket wasn’t a good reason to vote for Trump.”

    I am not saying that the LP ticket being crappy was a reason for people to vote for Trump, but rather that the LP ticket being crappy left a void which some people filled by voting for Trump.

    Paul said don’t vote for Trump. OK, what were people supposed to do then? Stay home on election day? Vote for Hillary Clinton? Vote for Jill Stein, who was on 44 state ballots plus DC? Vote for Darrell Castle, who was only on 24 state ballots?

    A lot of people considered Hillary Clinton to be a serious threat to this country, and to the world in general, and I agree completely that she was. Is Donald Trump as great a threat as Hillary Clinton was? He MIGHT be, but nobody knows for sure because he has yet to hold office, so at least with Trump there are some question marks.

    A lot of people saw Hillary as the devil that we know, and Donald Trump as the guy with whom to take their chances.

  64. Thane Eichenauer

    Andy,
    Thank you for the tip. I didn’t vote for Donald Trump but that video is certain to reach people with a desire to uphold the principles that Trump voiced during his campaign.

  65. paulie Post author

    uphold the principles that Trump voiced during his campaign.

    Which principles…trade wars, mass round ups and deportations, grabbing women by the pussy without consent, bombing the shit out of people and taking their oil, torturing detainees and killing their families, preserving entitlements, building by far the biggest military ever, monitoring American Muslims, supporting police brutality and racism, supporting corporate welfare and eminent domain for private gain…? So many great principles to choose from…

  66. paulie Post author

    I am not saying that the LP ticket being crappy was a reason for people to vote for Trump, but rather that the LP ticket being crappy left a void which some people filled by voting for Trump.

    Yes, and some people filled it by voting for Clinton. And the crappiness of the Barr-Root ticket led some people to vote for Obama, and others to vote for McCain. So what? It’s not a justification to gush about Obama in 2008, after the election, on the pretext that Barr and McCain sucked. Likewise, it’s most certainly not a justification to gush about Trump in 2016 after the election on the pretext that Johnson and Clinton were less than ideal. Trump still sucks just as much as he would have regardless who ran against him, and none of them are running anymore.

    Paul said don’t vote for Trump. OK, what were people supposed to do then? Stay home on election day? Vote for Hillary Clinton? Vote for Jill Stein, who was on 44 state ballots plus DC? Vote for Darrell Castle, who was only on 24 state ballots?

    Well, A, the election is over, so that’s a complete deflection. B, if you are asking me, I would say that any of those were better than voting for Trump, although voting for Clinton was also awful. Of the choices you listed, I’d probably consider Jill Stein to be the least bad, and none particularly good. No, I don’t care to rehash it again. The election is over and Trump’s awfulness stands on its own, not in comparison with the awfulness of others.

    A lot of people considered Hillary Clinton to be a serious threat to this country, and to the world in general, and I agree completely that she was.

    And a lot of people considered Trump to be a grave threat to this country and the world in general, and I agree completely that he is. Unlike whether Clinton was or not, whether Trump is or not is still relevant.

    Is Donald Trump as great a threat as Hillary Clinton was?

    I would say an even greater one, but see no point in belaboring yet again why, because it’s available in the archives and no longer particularly relevant.

    nobody knows for sure because he has yet to hold office,

    Another stupid talking point. That’s like saying in mid-November 2008 well, maybe Barack Obama really will shit rainbows and unicorns and bring hope and change. And when pressed why you’re saying something so stupid, fall back on how bad Barr and McCain were. Well, yeah, they were bad. But it doesn’t make Obama any better. Nor does it make Trump any less horrible and dangerous to belabor yet again how bad candidates he defeated were. Why is this a hard point to understand?

    A lot of people saw Hillary as the devil that we know, and Donald Trump as the guy with whom to take their chances.

    They same point was made by many Germans circa 1932-3, in regards to Hitler vis a vis the “devil we know” of the Weimar Republic. The biggest difference I see is that Hitler did not have nukes.

  67. paulie Post author

    On one hand, I agree with Andy that the LP completely dropped the ball this year. (They also dropped the ball in 2008 and 2012, but this year was much worse, partly because it was a much better opportunity, and partly because Weld is by far the least libertarian person ever to appear on the LP presidential ticket. In fact, I didn’t think it could get much worse than Root, but Weld makes Root look like Harry Browne.)

    On the other hand, I agree with Paulie that the crapiness of the LP ticket wasn’t a good reason to vote for Trump. There were many better options. Voting for a different 3rd party candidate, casting a write-in vote, or simply not voting at all would have all been better choices than voting for Trump…

    I agree with you on both points.

  68. paulie Post author

    Case withdrawn.

    Well, that was predictable. She’s justifiably terrified of what he’ll do to her and her family. Perhaps the issue will resurface if we ever lucky enough to survive to see a different president after Trump. Maybe she’ll be lucky enough to flee the country and sue him from overseas. Maybe he’ll use the executive power of the federal government to track her down and identify her and her whereabouts, and she’ll somehow come to disappear in a more permanent way.

    But, there are still plenty of other lawsuits and prosecutions hanging around Trump.

    Again, there is only a cloud of speculation, uncertainty and rumor to be had at this exact moment.

    For most of us, yes. But it certainly seems highly plausible given what we know about Trump’s behavior with women and underage girls, Putin and the KGB/FSB/whatever’s known penchant for collecting evidence and blackmailing people, Trump’s visits to Russia, Trump’s shilling for Putin and Putinism now, and the Putin regime’s now admitted deep and repeated involvement with multiple people in Trump’s campaign. Let’s call it an educated guess.

  69. paulie Post author

    http://reason.com/blog/2016/11/16/if-hillary-clinton-belongs-in-prison-so
    If Hillary Clinton Belongs in Prison, So Does Rudy Giuliani
    The would-be secretary of state brags about providing material support to a foreign terrorist organization.
    Jacob Sullum|Nov. 16, 2016 8:00 am

    http://reason.com/blog/2016/11/16/immigration-resistance
    The Coming Resistance to Trump’s Immigration Crackdown
    Watch for federal/local battles over deportations.
    Jesse Walker|Nov. 16, 2016 1:50 pm

    And in more great news for freedom, the police war on civilians will step up under Trump, since the president and the “justice” department will be 100% on the side of the cops. Police unions want to make it a hate crime to criticize the police, resisting arrest will be a felony *and literally anyone can be charged with resisting whether they resisted or not with the cops’ word usually being accepted as “proof,”* …yes this is a serious proposal police unions are pushing… get ready for way, way more people (and dogs) getting shot since it will now be even easier than before for the cops to get away with it. And when people protest watch out for more, bigger and more vicious crackdowns.

    Meanwhile fools like Alex Jones think Trump may pardon Snowden. Only if he wants to lure Snowden back to kill him, which he has already said he wants to do.

    And the Democratic “opposition”?

    http://reason.com/blog/2016/11/16/hey-dejected-dems-stop-crying-over-hilla

    Hey Dejected Dems: Stop Crying Over Hillary’s Loss and Block Chuck Schumer’s Ascent
    If you worry about Wall Street influence and hawkish foreign policy, the senior New York senator is very bad news.
    Nick Gillespie|Nov. 16, 2016 11:07 am

  70. Deran

    I was so entirely wrong on my national election result predictions. Trump won in places I failed to recognize.

    This essay, linked to in today’s Ballot Access posts is generally fascinating. If you are able to search within the essay you can jump right to the third party part by looking for “Johnson” or “Stein”. The author has done some interesting preliminary mapping abt in which states those two candidates did best.

  71. paulie Post author

    I put up a story by Jesse Walker at reason.com about which states Johnson and Stein did best in a while ago, but the comment thread went in other directions.

  72. paulie Post author

    http://reason.com/blog/2016/11/17/fdrs-wartime-violations-of-civil-liberti

    FDR’s Wartime Violations of Civil Liberties Are Not a Good Precedent for Anything
    And you don’t get points for not being as bad.

    Jesse Walker|Nov. 17, 2016 1:45 pm

    Last night on The Kelly File, Carl Higbie, the spokesman for a pro-Trump PAC, defended the idea of a federal registry of Muslims by citing the World War II–era internment of Japanese Americans as a precedent….

  73. paulie Post author

    Any particular reason you’re stuck on Hillary? I don’t recall you mounting a defense of Obama after the election because McCain would have been bad too.

    Richard Winger estimates Trump will be the worst president for civil liberties since Woodrow Wilson, but I think Richard is being too optimistic, as usual.

  74. Andy

    How am I defending Trump here? I did not vote for Trump, nor did I advocate that anyone vote for Trump.

    I just find it to be absurd that people are lamenting Trump being elected when the only other realistic option who was going to be elected was Hillary Clinton. Anyone who does not have their head shoved up their ass knows that Hillary would have been a disaster as President.

    Trump may well end up being as big of a disaster as President as Hillary would have been, and if this turns out to be the case, why should any Libertarian Party member be surprised?

    The sad thing is that the LP really did not offer anything that was better this year. We basically ran a Mitt Romney 2.0 ticket. Some Libertarian drank the Gary Johnson Cool Aid, but if by some freak miracle he had been elected, Bill Weld would have been his George HW Bush or Dick Cheney running the show behind the scenes, and heck, Johnson himself said that if he were to be elected that he’d offer Mitt Romney a high level position in his administration.

    So with a choice like this, the only things that made sense on election day were to either not vote, vote for Darrell Castle or Jill Stein or Rocky de la Fuente, or perhaps some other candidate who may have been on your ballot, or cast a write in vote.

    Whining to the Electoral College to vote for somebody other than Donald Trump is a complete waste of time, and it is counterproductive as well, because a) it is not likely to happen, and b) if it did happen, the outcome would not be any better.

    Libertarians should focus on doing things that are more productive, like spreading information about jury nullification, or cleaning up the Libertarian Party so it stops nominating candidates who are not really libertarian like Gary Johnson and Bill Weld.

  75. dL

    I just find it to be absurd that people are lamenting Trump being elected when the only other realistic option who was going to be elected was Hillary Clinton.

    Well, Clinton is the evil that you know. Dear Leader is the evil that you don’t know. Some might argue that Clinton is Trump’s ceiling…with a floor that has caved in below the sewer lines. If early indicators of a Trump cabinet are accurate–indicators that read like a libertarian comic book lineup of authoritarian villains –the floor is very low indeed.

  76. Just Saying

    “Richard Winger estimates Trump will be the worst president for civil liberties since Woodrow Wilson, but I think Richard is being too optimistic, as usual.” — Paulie

    Well, that’s certainly interesting. According to an officer of California’s ballot-qualified American Independent Party, Richard Winger personally encouraged the AIP to nominate Donald Trump.

  77. paulie Post author

    I’m not aware what role if any Richard played in the California AIP decision. I am aware of what I said and you quoted above, from correspondence in the last few days.

  78. paulie Post author

    Well, Clinton is the evil that you know. Dear Leader is the evil that you don’t know. Some might argue that Clinton is Trump’s ceiling…with a floor that has caved in below the sewer lines. If early indicators of a Trump cabinet are accurate–indicators that read like a libertarian comic book lineup of authoritarian villains –the floor is very low indeed.

    Exactly.

  79. paulie Post author

    Electoral College to vote for somebody other than Donald Trump is a complete waste of time, and it is counterproductive as well, because a) it is not likely to happen, and b) if it did happen, the outcome would not be any better.

    Admittedly, it’s a hail mary pass but I disagree with the notion that other possible candidates to emerge from the electoral college would be just as bad. They’d be like the typical politicians of the Weimar Republic, much as Clinton was, and Trump is more like Adolf Hitler, except worse, because he will have nukes. Certainly the politicians of the Weimar Republic were terrible, but that doesn’t mean Hitler could not be worse; he could be, and was. Likewise, it’s certainly possible that Trump can be even worse than the terrible politicians we have been suffering with, and all indications point that president “Biff Tannen” Trump will indeed be far worse than anything the world has seen up until now, even with the likes of Hitler and Stalin included.

  80. paulie Post author

    I can post some things. Where do I sign up?

    Are your writings available elsewhere? I see no record of you as a commenter at IPR. A quick search shows some references to prank calls. My guess at this point is that you are probably Nathan Norman.

  81. paulie Post author

    Trent Somes III
    November 20 at 3:57pm ·
    Instagram
    Hi. I’m Trent. I’m a pretty stereotypical millennial. I love Starbucks, travel, social media, and smoking tobacco pipes with my friends.

    And in this photo I am holding an “assault shotgun.”

    We don’t have guns with retractable stocks, shortened barrels and pistol grips so that we can shoot a squirrel. We have them so that when a fascist wins the office with the most power in the entire world and then starts making Muslim registries, forming internment camps, violating our privacy even further, closing the borders, giving more power to police while making them less accountable, etc. we can defend our fellow citizen.

    If you care at all about the people that I am talking about, go buy a gun and learn how to use it. Now isn’t the time to wear a wristband in support of people who will be oppressed if these policies are enacted, or change your Facebook profile picture, or send out some supportive tweets. Now is the time to prepare to defend the life, liberty, and property of your neighbor.

    I pledge to my friends who are Muslim, refugees, immigrants, marginalized, or those who are otherwise genuinely scared by the rhetoric coming from our highest office: I will defend you. #libertyordeath

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