Thomas Sipos: Libertarian Standard Time

Thomas Sipos at Libertarian Peacenik blog:

Tonight I attended a libertarian meeting, in the Los Angeles area, for which no one else came. I waited over an hour, then left.

This is the 4th time, in the past several years, that I was the only one to attend a Los Angeles libertarian meeting that had been announced and promoted on websites and email lists.

It’s not just me. I once went to another supper club (that was supposed to run from around 7 – 11 p.m.), saw no one there, waited, then left. I later learned that other libertarians had arrived, one by one at different times, saw no one there, and left.

Back in the 1990s, I heard some LP members jokingly refer to Libertarian Standard Time — a self-deprecating reference to many libertarians’ inability to be punctual or organize efficiently.

In the early 2000s, I attended local libertarian meetings and supper clubs about 20 times a year (there are many in L.A.). Now I only go about twice a year, partially because I don’t have time to waste on “hit and miss” games.

I’m sure some libertarian groups are well organized, but the Libertarian Standard Time joke implies that disorganization is also widespread. A disregard for punctuality or time commitments seems endemic to libertarian culture. Maybe some libertarians imagine themselves to be “free spirits” who can’t be bound by the “tyranny of timetables.”

The sorry truth is, Obama style socialism is more efficient than are many libertarian run organizations.

Libertarians, instead of getting all preachy to the American public about “the efficiency of the free market vs. socialism,” would do well to first clean up their own acts. They should demonstrate efficiency, rather than just talk about it.

120 thoughts on “Thomas Sipos: Libertarian Standard Time

  1. Bruce Cohen

    The reason for this, Thomas is because of rude, nasty and incompetent/lazy people like you.

    Yes, you and those like you are who chase the grownups away.

    Good job, fuzzy.

  2. John Jay Myers

    It could be similar to what happened to me once.

    I joined a meet up group, I did not realize that the creator of the group had set the meet up to recurring.

    So a message goes out about it automatically, despite the fact that no one shows up.

    You might want to contact the organizer (if it was meet up) and make sure he changes the settings.

    @2, nice use of irony.

  3. George Whitfield

    The key person is the organizer. I am the Organizer for the Seoul Libertarian Party Meetup Group and we have met every month since August 2004. There was one meeting where I was the only one there, but I was there. There were two meetings where I was sick or traveling but I made sure a reliable person was filling in for me. You are right Thomas, we have to be persistent and consistent. Just like clockwork, in any time zone.

  4. Thomas M. Sipos

    I’ve since talked to the organizer. He told me that the scheduled speaker did not show up, and so the meeting broke up early. By the time I arrived, everyone was gone.

  5. Don Lake, FYI, not necessarily a unilateral endorcement

    In San Diego County earlier this decade I spent time and energy doing a six part series on the privatization of state veterans homes.

    Ed Tesslier (sp) verbally promised to run such as a series. They did not. Ed and Richard Rider claimed that one article was printed at so and so time.

    I, and no one I know, ever saw it. The suggestion from both of them was for me to spend $25 * as a LP member and I could get future county news letters for a year. I was already told that there would be no more stories on CALVETS / CDVA.

    I suggested that they ship me a copy of the news letter. They begged off. I suggested that they photo copy and mail the article. They begged off. Ship them a dollar? No. Ship them $5, well AOK.

    Shipped the ‘payment’ but no article. Ever.

    That’s the LP I am familiar with.

    * these guys on commission or som’ ting?

  6. Jill Pyeatt

    Thomas, there was a meeting for the LP of LA County tonight. Maybe some people went to that who would have normally gone to your meeting.

    Why don’t you come out to our meetings in Pasadena? We have a good group, and I have have as many anti-war people as I can come and speak to us. I’ll send you an invitation. We meet the second Wednesday of each month, and we’ll have Carlos Rodriguez speak this month about immigration.

    We always have a good time!

  7. Thomas M. Sipos

    Jill, the meeting I refer to was on the 21st.

    I twice went to a Pasadena LP meeting (Region 63). The last time was in 2003

    The drive from Santa Monica was 1 hour and 40 minutes. Rush hour traffic across town is brutal.

    I imagine it’s only gotten worse since 2003.

    I don’t have a solution to traffic, but L.A.’s traffic is hurting all events. I’ve read that people are increasingly sticking to their own neighborhoods.

    I believe it. I avoid driving into the Valley, or across town, during rush hour. I’m sure I’m not alone.

  8. Andy

    “Tonight I attended a libertarian meeting, in the Los Angeles area, for which no one else came. I waited over an hour, then left.

    This is the 4th time, in the past several years, that I was the only one to attend a Los Angeles libertarian meeting that had been announced and promoted on websites and email lists.”

    LOL! The same thing happened to me a few years ago with some Libertarian Party meetings in the Los Angeles area. There was a regularly scheduled meeting which was advertised on the party affiliate’s website and there was no announcement saying that the meeting was canceled, so I attended and nobody showed up. I waited around for a little while and I finally said the heck with it and left. This happened on more than one occassion.

    The fact that stuff like this happens is a sign of a party that does not have its act together.

  9. Thomas M. Sipos

    I think a problem is that no one person is required to show up.

    The meetings are “regularly scheduled,” with the understanding that whoever wants to come, will come. It’s all very casual.

    Trouble is, if only one person decides to come, he’s alone.

    Worse, on rare occasions a non-LP member shows up, having found the meeting on the website. Either he arrives to find a sparsely attended “meeting,” or nobody there.

  10. Here is a radical idea

    Can you imagine a Libertarian group that was organized? It would be dangerous indeed. The Tea Party has better organization and they don’t want to be. Sad

  11. Andy

    “They have the people they wanted and elected.
    And these are the results.”

    The Libertarian Party meeting where nobody showed up that I mentioned above happened between 2000-2005. I don’t think that the same people were office holders in the LP of CA back then.

  12. AroundtheblockAFT

    I recall that at the 1991 LP convention in Chicago everything started when the agenda said it would start. C-SPAN was grateful.
    After day one, delegates learned they would have to be on time or miss something important.
    Obviously we shouldn’t be automatons but, obviously we shouldn’t disrespect those who do show up on time.

  13. LibertarianGirl

    true story , some years ago there was this guy Charles who was on the County Ex-Com , we had our meetings business first /speaker 2nd at the library then . so often was he the 1st and only one there when we began than he printed cards that read ” the only bad thing about being on time to an LP meeting is being all alone” and he would pass them out to us late comers… i credit him SOLELY with me making sure I am on time , i hated getting one of those cards

  14. LibertarianGirl

    oh and the event shouldnt be listed if at least 1 rep isnt there , somebody should take on the the task, and then they either show or find someone who will host . DONT HAVE EVENTS WHERE NO LPER ATTENDS AND MAYBE A NEWCOMER SEE’S AN EMPTY ROOM

  15. Kevin Knedler

    Depends on who is in charge/the leader.
    Each state or local group is different.

  16. Porn Again Christian

    rude, nasty and incompetent/lazy people like you.

    Yes, you and those like you are who chase the grownups away.

    Good job, fuzzy.

    I think the irony here may have been unintentional.

  17. paulie Post author

    The key person is the organizer. [..] You are right Thomas, we have to be persistent and consistent. Just like clockwork, in any time zone.

    Agreed.

  18. paulie Post author

    Why don’t you come out to our meetings in Pasadena? We have a good group, and I have have as many anti-war people as I can come and speak to us. I’ll send you an invitation. We meet the second Wednesday of each month, and we’ll have Carlos Rodriguez speak this month about immigration.

    We always have a good time!

    If I was anywhere close to LA I’d definitely go…yes, I know that was originally addressed to Sipos, just thought I’d give it a bump 🙂

  19. paulie Post author

    join me in calling for radical libertarians to abandon the LP to the BTP?

    Well, they’ve certainly solved the problem of time meetings and locations, since they are almost all online only.

  20. paulie Post author

    I think a problem is that no one person is required to show up.

    The meetings are “regularly scheduled,” with the understanding that whoever wants to come, will come. It’s all very casual.

    Trouble is, if only one person decides to come, he’s alone.

    Worse, on rare occasions a non-LP member shows up, having found the meeting on the website. Either he arrives to find a sparsely attended “meeting,” or nobody there.

    Sometimes, they are there, but not clearly marked, so if you don’t know what they look like, you have to either guess or walk around table to table asking if they are the libertarians, or just leave.

  21. paulie Post author

    Jill and Thomas are ‘leaders’ in the LPCA.

    They have the people they wanted and elected.
    And these are the results.

    Now they complain.

    Was Jill complaining? I saw her talking about how great her local meetings are.

  22. paulie Post author

    the event shouldnt be listed if at least 1 rep isnt there ,

    True. Back in the late 90s I made a “Libertarian meeting” sign that I put at my table. I have to admit it was a little embarrassing when I would be there by myself, though.

  23. paulie Post author

    I have been through similar events elsewhere. Seems to be a disease in the LP.

    Same here, many times, in many parts of the country, over quite a few years…

  24. Fun K. Chicken

    Oh, look, another Paulie filibuster. No wonder nobody comes back to your meetings. Pretty soon IPR will be the same way if Paulie and a couple of other people are not kicked out.

  25. JT

    Thomas: “I’ve since talked to the organizer. He told me that the scheduled speaker did not show up, and so the meeting broke up early. By the time I arrived, everyone was gone.”

    How long after the meeting started was that? If you arrived substantially late, then I’m not sure how you could complain about it.

  26. Jill Pyeatt

    One of my son’s friends wanted to attend a Democratic meetup a couple months ago. He showed up, and no one was there. So, he called the Meetup coordinator, who said something like: “The Meetup regularly schedules meetings, whether they happen or not”. So apparently, it isn’t just a Libertarian thing.

  27. Andy

    “True. Back in the late 90s I made a “Libertarian meeting” sign that I put at my table. I have to admit it was a little embarrassing when I would be there by myself, though.”

    LOL!

  28. Andy

    “paulie // Mar 1, 2011 at 2:13 pm

    ‘I have been through similar events elsewhere. Seems to be a disease in the LP.’

    Same here, many times, in many parts of the country, over quite a few years…”

    I recall you attended a Libertarian Party meeting in Colorado where nobody else showed up.

  29. paulie Post author

    I think that was actually Liberty On The Rocks, not Libertarian Party, but yes, it’s endemic in the movement.

  30. paulie Post author

    Andy, wasn’t there something or another we tried to go to in, I think, Mechanicsburg, maybe a year or two ago also? I can’t remember whether that was LP or what it was.

  31. Andy

    I almost hate to say it, but frankly, a lot of these Libertarian Party meetings are kind of a waste of time. Why do I say this? Because they are often times a few people who already pretty much agree on the issues talking about the same stuff they always talk about, yet they have no plan of action to do anything about it. They sit around and whine but they do little or nothing when it comes to taking actions to build the party and movement so it can become a powerful enough force to change things.

    I really want to see the Libertarian Party become more outreach oriented. I’ve been a member of this party since 1996 and I’ve been to meetings all over the country, and I’ve seen very few Libertarian Party affiliates that do much of anything.

    When I say do things I mean going door-to-door canvasing in districts. I mean having outreach tables at various events. I mean going on college campuses and promoting the Libertarian cause. I mean hanging up banners and signs. I mean staging protests. I mean hosting events where the general public is invited (and that people would actually be motivated to attend).

    A lot of Libertarian Party affiliates come off as a bunch of boring, ineffective, do-nothings. That’s why a lot more people don’t attend meetings.

    Then when you go to a meeting what do you usually see. A few middle aged or older white guys for the most part. There aren’t that many women at most LP meetings (some of them have no women). It is rare to see anyone at these meetings who isn’t white. When I used to attend LP meetings in California regularly I was often times the youngest person there (and it’s not like I was 18 or 19 or early 20s), and even when I wasn’t the youngest person there was never an abundance of young people.

    If the Libertarian Party is ever going to get anywhere the party needs to attract more than just middle aged or older white guys. It is not as though there aren’t a lot of freedom lovers among women, non-whites, and young people, it’s just that the Libertarian Party sucks (for the most part) at doing outreach. Some people attend a Libertarian Party meeting where they see a few boring middle aged or older white guys sitting around and having a bull session but not actually doing or accomplishing anything so they don’t come back.

    There are two pro-liberty groups that I’ve seen that really stood out for their activism and for the number of people I saw at their meetings. I used the term pro-liberty instead of Libertarian Party because while these groups had Libertarian Party members in them, they weren’t Libertarian Party affiliates. Those groups were:

    1) The group at the Freedoms Phoenix Workshop in Phoenix, Arizona which was founded by Ernie Hancock.

    2) The Ron Paul Meet Up Group for the greater Harrisburg area in Pennsylvania – which is now called the Greater Harrisburg Liberty Alliance.

    These two groups actually went out and did stuff. They also had (have) good attendance at their meetings. I saw way more people and way more activism from these two groups than I ever saw from any Libertarian Party affiliates.

  32. Andy

    “paulie // Mar 1, 2011 at 6:03 pm

    Andy, wasn’t there something or another we tried to go to in, I think, Mechanicsburg, maybe a year or two ago also? I can’t remember whether that was LP or what it was.”

    It was a Libertarian Party meeting in Carlisle, PA. We went to the restaurant that was listed on the website for being the meeting location and it didn’t look like anyone was there for the meeting. We walked around and looked at the different tables but there was hardly anyone there and there was no sign indicating that an LP meeting was taking place and the restaurant staff person that I asked about the meeting didn’t know what I was talking about. We could have asked each table if they were the local LP meeting but considering that it was obviously small and disorganized if it was the meeting we said the heck with it and we just got a table for ourselves and ate and left. If there was a meeting it was a joke, if there wasn’t a meeting then it was pretty pathetic it for them to have it on their website and then not have anyone show up. I thought since I’d been to LP meetings in that area in the past (plus the Ron Paul/Liberty Alliance Group) that I’d recognize at least somebody if there was a meeting taking place, but I didn’t see one person I knew and there was no indication that an LP meeting was even taking place there.

  33. Jill Pyeatt

    I agree with Andy as well. We try to bring in interesting speakers, often not Libertarians, but people who can enlighten us on subjects that interest us, or should interest us. I agree we need more women and young people. As my husband says, we need to emphasize the “party” in “Libertarian Party”.

    This is sometimes hard to do, with jobs and families that require so much time. But, we still keep trying!

  34. Michael H. Wilson

    I’ve had meetings where three people showed up and two were my wife and myself. I’ve had others were we had 40 or so. A lot of it is being will to do postcard notices and make calls. Sometime there just is no time to do these things.

    Sometime you just meet for the fun of getting to know one another other times for serious business. I thought about buying a free meal for the person who had a letter to the editor in paper that month, or maybe drawing for a free meal if there were more than one person who got a letter published. And media release always help to get new face, especially to the colleges or universities newspapers in town.

  35. Andy

    “Jill Pyeatt // Mar 1, 2011 at 6:50 pm

    I agree with Andy as well. We try to bring in interesting speakers, often not Libertarians, but people who can enlighten us on subjects that interest us, or should interest us.”

    Having speakers is good, but a Libertarian Party meeting should have more than that. Every Libertarian Party meeting should have plans for outreach activities that take place between meetings. Just sitting around and listening to somebody give a speech doesn’t accomplish much if the people in the audience are the same people who attend the meetings on a regular basis. This movement needs to constantly bring in new people if it is ever going to get anywhere.

    “I agree we need more women and young people. As my husband says, we need to emphasize the “party” in ‘Libertarian Party’.”

    I agree. We are involved in the “animating contest for liberty” (to borrow a phrase from Samuel Adams). The key word here is animating. This doesn’t mean a bunch of boring people sitting around at meetings that could be cures for insomnia. Fighting for liberty should be exciting. It should be an adventure. If you aren’t having fun fighting for liberty then you aren’t doing something right.

    “This is sometimes hard to do, with jobs and families that require so much time. But, we still keep trying!”

    This is a valid point. People often get tied down with their jobs, their families, and other responsibilities. I think that everyone needs to keep in mind that we are in a very important struggle. Our lives and our liberty – as well as the lives and liberty of our family and friends – is at stake here. Ask yourself if you want to live in a tyrannical police state. This is the direction in which we are headed. You can either get active and work to fight it or you can just roll over and watch the police state take over. The choice is yours.

  36. Robert Milnes

    @47, darryl, why aren’t you joining me in calling for radicals to withdraw from lp & join BTP either?
    -reminder-this is proposed as a remedy to LP being dominated by rightists & failure to adopt the Original Nolan Resolution or Milnes Resolution. Re-proposed upon realization the 2 LNC vacancies will not be replaced by radicals, particularly Nolan’s.

  37. paulie Post author

    Darryl is not withdrawing from LP, he is a life member and was a delegate at the most recent LP national convention…. sat right next to me in the Alabama delegation.

  38. Robert Milnes

    More specifically withdrawing support-wherewithall-from LP in favor of BTP. So we need not hold life membership as a bar to supporting BTP.
    This has the added advantage of denying Ron Paul et al leeching to the GOP from LP.

  39. Jill Pyeatt

    Re: Bruce Cohen @ 16: How long will Mr. Cohen be allowed to post totally false information about my husband, Alan, and I? I usually ignore him, but he continues to say outrageous and untrue things, which are often total non-sequitors. How can such a liar be given privileges to write for this website?

  40. paulie Post author

    Jill, he can’t say anything in the comments that any other reader can’t say. If you feel any particular comment is actually libelous, use this form:

    https://independentpoliticalreport.com/removal/

    As far as posting articles, Bruce is not allowed to opinionate in those, as none of us are unless the whole writers group reaches a unanimous concensus (hard to do as we have Greens, Libertarians, Constitutionalists, libertarian Republicans, liberventionist Libertarians, etc).

    If you and/or your husband would like to sign up to post articles, I’d be happy to add you, although we ask that you abide by the same rule as everyone, that is post news about alt parties and independents and opinions by and about alt party/independent persons of note, but not your own opinions in the articles…only in the comments.

  41. paulie Post author

    Jill, join the IPR Victims’ Club.
    paulie has been doing that to me for years.
    e.g. I was not convicted of stalking Deborah Knapp.

    Apply to have any of my comments that you feel were libelous taken down, and see if the owner agrees with you.

  42. Fun K. Chicken

    Take all of Paulie’s posts and comments down. Every single one. Same for Milnes. They are mentally ill blights on the community.

  43. Thomas M. Sipos

    Milnes, no I’m not an LP life member.

    And Bruce Cohen is wrong (yet again, as usual). I am not an LPCA “leader.”

    In 2008, I allowed my national LP membership to lapse after Root was nominated. I’ve not been a member of the LNC since then.

    In summer 2009, I re-registered from Libertarian to Non-Partisan.

    This was a few months before the newsletter, which I edited, folded.

    I was already looking to get out of the LP before then. As Ed Bowers will confirm, I consulted with him in March 2009 about my resigning my editorship, and recommending him to take my place. (He was ambivalent about the idea.) So I was already looking to get out of the LPCA.

    I allowed my LPCA membership to lapse this year. I will not be at the 2011 state convention. (Nor was I at any LP conventions, on any level, in 2010).

    Right now I’m a “small l” libertarian. I may rejoin in 2012, or not. I don’t know yet.

    I am thinking of joining the Ron Paul campaign, if he runs for president again. I’d like to work for Paul in Iowa and New Hampshire.

    Right now, I’m as much an LP member as are Thomas Knapp, Angela Keaton, Chris Bennett, and others who’ve exited the party.

    I only attend LP meetings on occasion, and only as an observer.

  44. Alan Pyeatt

    I have to agree with pretty much all of Andy’s post @ 50. Unfortunately, a lot of LP members are happy to come to a meeting once a month, without any further involvement. And that’s better than nothing, so I’m not going to complain about it.

    OTOH, we need people to be more active for our party to be effective and to grow. So, I’ve been trying to get people more involved by having them print up and hand out fliers inviting their neighbors, and anybody else, to our region meetings. No big deal, just hand a couple of fliers out on your way to lunch, or walking to the theater, or anywhere else. Because as people get used to doing something, no matter how small, they will be doing SOMETHING. And it will be easier to get them to do more.

    Jay Jones is having success getting people in his region (South Bay) to work street fairs and other similar events. We discussed this at the LP of Los Angeles County meeting Monday night, and hopefully we’ll be able to do this in Region 63 again, soon. We used to see a lot more of this type of activism, but it’s fallen off in recent years, so I hope we can reinvigorate our membership.

    As for outreach, I handed out 50 fliers to business owners, managers, and employees in Glendale today. This was a follow-up to the eminent domain action against the Golden Key Hotel (see previous article). The hearing had been rescheduled for today, but the hotel owner finally gave in, so it was postponed again (indefinitely, this time). So instead of handing out the fliers (which included an invitation to our next region meeting) at City Hall, I went door-to-door to local businesses. It took a lot longer, but gave me an opportunity to speak with people at each business, emphasizing the point that it could be their business or job threatened next. We’ll see how effective it was next week.

    I’m also trying to get the hotel owner to speak at our region. If he does, it should draw some newcomers from among his supporters.

    Another thing that will help our outreach is for people to be involved in other groups besides the LP, and recruit from there. Jill has brought one young new member into our region from We Are Change L.A., and generated interest from several others. As we have more programs that appeal to people with similar interests (like the pro-Prop. 19 program and the 9-11 program last year), we will get more people who aren’t currently LP members to our meetings. Both of those events brought in several new faces, who wouldn’t have attended an LP meeting otherwise.

    Thomas, I’m sorry to hear about your experience, but I don’t think the situation’s as bad as it’s being made out to be on this thread. At the county level, we’re working hard to reinvigorate all of our regions. We had problems with non-existent meetings in one region last year, so changes were made to bring in a chairman that was up to the task, and he’s reinvigorated that region. Jill and I attended their meeting last month, and they had a great program featuring the producer of the film, “The American Dream.” It was well attended, and I think the new region chair’s doing a great job of turning things around. The key is to establish a record of consistently having interesting speakers, so people get used to that being the norm. It takes time, but it certainly can be done.

    If anybody has problems with non-existent meetings in Los Angeles County, please let County Chair Bruce Dovner know, and we’ll address the issue. Of course, if you don’t get to the meeting until it’s over, we can’t help you.

    We certainly need to do a better job of putting the “party” back in our party. But don’t forget that there are at least 3 social events in Los Angeles County every month at different locations: Sundowners, the Karl Hess Club, and the Dave Larkin Pub Club.

    Ideas and suggestions are definitely welcome. Volunteering locations for events is even more welcome! If you can host a fundraiser (whether for a candidate in a Special Election, or just for the LP) in your home, please do so. If you have a business location that can be used for panel discussions, debates, concerts, or anything else, please say so! We’ll find SOMETHING worthwhile to do there. If you can host an event, so much the better. In California, you can call Beau Cain at the state office at (818) 782-8400.

    Our party’s full of computer heroes. That’s great; we need them. But what we really need are people that will host a fundraiser, hand out fliers inviting people to meetings and events, volunteer for campaigns, speak at events, work street fair booths… You get the picture.

  45. Alan Pyeatt

    BTW, we miss you, Thomas. If all the good people leave the LP, the “Reagan Libertarians” will be the only ones left. That may be their goal, but it doesn’t suit me at all.

  46. Robert Milnes

    @67, precisely. if all or most of these good people are radicals-or at least not rightists,-then there is a pool of people who could build BTP.
    What would be most critical would be enough ballot access to possibly win.
    Guaranteed –no rightist presidential ticket.

  47. paulie Post author

    And what would guarantee that, Milnes? Rightists could take over the BTP if there was anything worth taking over.

  48. Robert Milnes

    paulie, without The Nolan Original or Milnes Resolution in effect, we are left with general political forces, peer pressure, passive-aggressive tactics, etc.
    Rightists predominate the LP because that is the nature of the beast. BTP has created a whole new beast. An exodus of radicals from LP to BTP would not include rightists. It just couldn’t/wouldn’t be allowed to happen.
    IMO.

  49. Robert Milnes

    e.g. there was some grumbling when Barr rocketed to the LNC. & then tried to draft Ron Paul. & about Mary deferring vp to Root.
    Now there is louder grumblings about Root.
    Any stunts like that would get immediate notice & loud protest & majority votes against in BTP.

  50. paulie Post author

    Robert, you missed my point.

    Why wouldn’t it be allowed to happen?

    Right now, the BTP has almost no ballot access, so there’s nothing to take over.

    Suppose a lot of LP members did leave the LP and built up the BTP. It would take many years to achieve the kind of ballot access the LP has, if they could even do it at all.

    The LP benefited from a faithless presidential elector in 1972 and a billionaire family that bankrolled the party for a few years in the 1970s and early 1980s, which made getting a lot of ballot access feasible. How’s the BTP going to do that?

    But suppose they did, they have no mechanism for keeping rightists or leftists out.

    True, the candidates would have to say they support the platform, just as LP members and candidates have to sign a non-initiation of force pledge now, but whether they actually mean it is up to party members to decide.

    If rightists flooded the BTP membership ranks, they could simply say that a rightist candidate who says that he or she supports the platform does, even if he or she doesn’t.

    If you’ll recall, that’s the point Tom Knapp convinced me of on the PLAS thread.

    So, the BTP is no more immune to the type of takeover you are talking about than the LP is, except that it doesn’t have anywhere like the kind of ballot access the LP has, and may not for a long time, or ever, even if all radical libertarians abandoned the LP for the BTP.

    In the meantime, while I think the BTP can be useful in some ways – for example, passing resolutions that can be a model for the LP to emulate – I should think my fellow libertarians would be better off taking the advice of Alan Pyeatt @ 66, who clearly seems to know what he’s taking about, over a self-described progressive’s advice (that would be you).

  51. Robert Milnes

    Keaton, Susan H.,lg etc.
    If it doesn’t work, it should be reversable. Radicals could put their tails between their legs & go back to LP.

  52. paulie Post author

    Any stunts like that would get immediate notice & loud protest & majority votes against in BTP.

    That depends on who joins the BTP. Rightists can join the BTP if there is anything worth joining.

    What is needed is several prominent libs to advocate such a move. George, Sipos,…you e.g. Then it would gain traction.

    Phillies is a partisan Libertarian, Sipos doesn’t consider the BTP to be of any value apparently. I’ve already done more for the BTP in terms of ballot access and publicity than almost anyone else, but it has limited value at present, and I’m not abandoning the LP at this time.

    I think rather than abandoning the LP, we need to work to get good people into the LP. Pyeatts sound like they’re doing that. We need more of that.

  53. paulie Post author

    If it doesn’t work, it should be reversable. Radicals could put their tails between their legs & go back to LP.

    Too much damage to the LP brand, platform, bylaws, etc would be done in the meantime.

    Luckily, people don’t listen to (self-described) progressive Robert “disabled, unemployed, broke, depressed, mentally ill, no significant other, not tech savvy, [..] no campaign contributions, no volunteers or staff, not on any ballots” Milnes, so this is not going to happen.

    By all means, if you think you can do something useful through the BTP, go for it. If you think you can do something useful through the big box parties, go right ahead. I’m not a one-strategy, all eggs in one basket type of guy.

    I’m not abandoning the LP, and I hope others don’t either. And for those that have, I hope they come back.

  54. Andy

    “Unfortunately, a lot of LP members are happy to come to a meeting once a month, without any further involvement. And that’s better than nothing, so I’m not going to complain about it.”

    This may be better than nothing but it does not help grow the party.

    “Ideas and suggestions are definitely welcome.”

    How about some fully informed jury activism ( http://www.FIJA.org )? This is an area where Libertarians can effect change without electing one person to office.

  55. paulie Post author

    Thanks for reminding me, I’ll try to do an article about that today.

    I’ve been having trouble focusing the last few days, so I keep getting distracted and the list of stuff I want to write about just grows and grows…

  56. paulie Post author

    Here’s another suggestion, get people involved in doing active stuff together that is helpful and/or fun, not just purely political.

    Go on hikes, do some target shooting, feed the homeless, turn a vacant lot into a community garden…if possible, think of activities that will give you credibility in demonstrating non-political solutions to problems through action, not just words. Also, activities that will help you have friends you can count on with skills and resources that help if the world goes to crap (economic collapse, or whatever). If that doesn’t happen, it’s still good to have friends like that.

    What social value do people get out of the LP? The idea of changing the world can only sustain people for so long, especially when you work at it for a while and it’s not happening. Granted some people are more resilient than others, but it helps if it doubles as a social network for other purposes.

  57. paulie Post author

    Check out Claire Wolfe’s stuff for lots of other ideas….

    * Depression 2.0: Creative Strategies for Tough Economic Times (contributor), Process Media, (2009) (ISBN 978-1934170069)
    * Tough Times Survival Guide (contributor), Paladin Press, (2009) (ISBN 978-1-58160-711-6)
    * The Freedom Outlaw’s Handbook: 179 Things to Do ‘Til the Revolution, Paladin Press, (2007) (ISBN 1-58160-578-1)
    * How to Kill the Job Culture Before it Kills You: Living a Life of Autonomy in a Wage-Slave Society (2005) (ISBN 1-55950-247-9)
    * I Am Not a Number!: Freeing America from the ID State (2003) (ISBN 1-55950-232-0)
    * Rebelfire: Out of the Gray Zone (2005) Novel co-authored with Aaron Zelman (ISBN 0-9642304-8-8)
    * The State vs. The People: The Rise of the American Police State (2001) (ISBN 0-9642304-7-X)
    * Think Free to Live Free: A Political Burnout’s Guide to Life, Activism and Everything (2001) (ISBN 1-893626-45-8)
    * 101 Things to Do ‘Til the Revolution: Ideas and Resources for Self-Liberation, Monkey Wrenching and Preparedness, Breakout Productions; Revised edition (January 1999) (ISBN 1-893626-13-X)
    * Don’t Shoot the Bastards (Yet): 101 More Ways to Salvage Freedom (1999) (ISBN 1-55950-189-8)

  58. paulie Post author

    Comment number references thrown off because several comments in this thread were removed. Not by me, but by the actual owner of the site, I believe.

  59. paulie Post author

    @ 81 see @ 55-56. The original @16 from Mr. Cohen and several followup comments were removed (again, not by me).

    I did make one error @ 56 Jill, he can’t say anything in the comments that any other reader can’t say. One thing IPR writers can do in the comments that other people can’t is to post videos and images (I don’t know how to extend this to everyone). Another is to fish their own comments out if they get accidentally caught in spam. Also, IPR writers can go back and re-edit their own comments.

    If you would like to be able to do these things, apply to be an IPR writer.

    However, I was substantively correct that no additional privilege to defame anyone in comments is conferred by signing up to write at IPR. If you feel any comments posted by anyone at IPR are libelous, whether those comments are by an IPR writer or not, apply to have them removed.

  60. Committee to Fire Bruce Cohan from IPR

    Zionist Bruce Cohan

    Bad for IPR
    Should be fired
    Embarrassment
    Harasses women
    Many members felt he should be kicked out of LP
    Bizarre behavior
    Evil Root Sucker
    Glenn Beck Republican
    Pro-War, Pro-Empire
    Mental Problems/Pill Addict
    Known Liar
    Jewish National Socialist
    Israel First, America Last
    Egotistical smarmy prick
    Hypocrite, lectures others about manners, has none himself
    Closet case

    Should be fired now…believe me now…or regret it later.

  61. Northern Exposure

    Wow, I really like the Kosher Constitutionalist label! Maybe I’ll use that for myself.

  62. Andy

    “Cohan”

    It’s spelled Cohen. If you are going to take the time to attack the guy then you ought to spell his name right.

    “Kosher Constitutionalist”

    LOL! I’ve never heard this one before.

  63. Robert Milnes

    paulie, I understand you are LP, stickingwith LP, unwilling to listen to a self confessed progressive TR lover (me) etc.
    Because you are a typical plumb line purist radical. & that is their big flaw.
    Rightists would not join the LP en masse to try to effect it. If they came out publicly BTP would be on notice. They would not individually because they have little in common with radicals, unlike the LP. There is a lot of overlap there, esp. with the GOP.
    It wouldn’t take a real lot of rads to build up BTP.
    Also an Independent could get ballot access to mix & match like Nader has done.
    Agreed, George is probably too dedicated to the LP for this idea.
    The big picture is that this strategy is one to try if the Original Nolan Resolution is not adopted. The ticket & most candidates virtually guaranteed to be radicals.
    Also again, this would prevent LP>GOP leeching wherewithall.
    Also trying to prevent Ron Paul>GOP leeching wherewithall would help the radical cause.

  64. Don Lake, FYI, not necessarily a unilateral endorcement

    *as the smoke clears and the kool aid slurps*

    ……. well I am also a TR fan, and especially for non Democans and non Republicrats. Yes he was not perfect then and is certainly flawed by 21st Century standards. The Teddy Bear / Bull Moose centennial is in 2012.

    LPers talk the talk (occasionally) but ……….

    I do drink alcohol but have never been drunk.

    The Nolan Chart is merely a guide.

    libertarianism is a wonderful idea that fails time and time again ——– as the Dems and GOP snicker and laugh at us!

  65. LibertarianGirl

    “Cohan” It’s spelled Cohen. If you are going to take the time to attack the guy then you ought to spell his name right ……..”

    me _ Cohen is a very respected Jewish name , I think it means something like’ temple priest ‘( my bad if I got that wrong)

    Cohan is an American songwriter and playright

    it borders on being really rude to misspell it ecsp if it was on purpose….

  66. paulie Post author

    Yeah, we love you too Robert. Speaking of which, engaging crazy people doesn’t always work either. ‘Tis a conundrum, eh?

  67. paulie Post author

    By the way, if anyone does want to discuss whether I should be “fired” (kinda tough to do when I’m not getting paid, but OK)…or what should or should not be allowed to be discussed where on IPR…take it to
    https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2011/02/debate-on-debate-parameters-plus-should-paulie-stay/

    Anyway.

    Libertarian meetings. Being on time. Letting people know you’re there as well as when you are not there. Making them more effective. Anyone have any more thoughts about that?

  68. Andy

    “Cohan is an American songwriter and playright”

    Cohan sounds like an Irish name.

  69. Andy

    “Committee to Fire ‘Paulie’ Pankel Fraudankel from IPR // Mar 3, 2011 at 4:36 pm”

    I wonder if the real identity of this poster has the initials J.S.

    It could also be Sean Haugh.

  70. paulie Post author

    I have no idea who it is nor do I care.

    IPR isn’t paying me squat and they can “fire” me any time they want.

    Getting someone else to post anywhere near as many stories may be somewhat more challenging, though.

    I’ll always find someplace to post, if I need to. or, putting an end to this addictive behavior might actually be good for me.

    Maybe I need an intervention.

    In the meantime, enjoy, or not….

  71. paulie Post author

    Oh and how’s LFV doing? I haven’t heard too much about them lately. It’s been a while since I checked, but things looked pretty quiet there at that time. I guess that’s not to be completely unexpected for any site that “fires” my free services…

  72. Andy

    “IPR isn’t paying me squat and they can ‘fire’ me any time they want.”

    This site would go down hill without you.

  73. FKC

    Oh, baloney. No one is that stupid. Obviously, this site has a paid staff, no matter what they want you to think. They probably have an office and at least a million dollars or more.

  74. Marc Montoni

    Organizing fun and effective meetings is not rocket science, but a lot of people — not just libertarians — seem to think it is, because they neglect even the most basic principles of organizing a group.

    1) Publicity. In pre-email days, that meant a simple flyer mailed to your local list. These days, it should be a “basket” of contact methods, because even today not everyone is on email — see my article about

    why no one should *ever* rely on email for organizing purposes. Meeting announcements still need to go out via mail every once in a while; but of course all other methods of contact should supplement the mailed piece — email reminders, twitter, Facebook, etc should all be used for “reminders” closer to the event. Just don’t think of these “online” methods to be the only method of contact you must use!

    2) Structure. Have a plan for how the meeting will go, and stick to the plan. If you have a speaker, be clear with the speaker about what time you would like him to speak.

    3) Promptness. Always make sure someone is there to greet people as they arrive.

    4) Attire. Always dress well, at least the organizer should.

    I’ve organized LP meetings for years, and always made sure I was there at the appropriate time. If we were meeting in a rerstaurant, I made sure the host/ess knew we were the “___________ Libertarians”, and that anyone asking for us should be directed over.

    I keep meaning to assemble a guide about it. Maybe when I’m retired.

  75. Brian Holtz

    Connecting the dots for the record:

    Sipos in article: “A disregard for punctuality or time commitments seems endemic to libertarian culture.”

    Sipos in comment 5: “I’ve since talked to the organizer. He told me that the scheduled speaker did not show up, and so the meeting broke up early. By the time I arrived, everyone was gone.”

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *