Wayne Root: How The Media Blew It Again- The Lessons We Should be Learning From Egyptian Crisis

By Wayne Allyn Root, Former Libertarian Vice Presidential Nominee and Best-Selling Author

The media has done it again. As usual, they’ve presented the wrong message to the American people about the Egyptian crisis and it’s not just because of the liberal bias of the U.S. media. It’s also because both the left and right have only one agenda: Sensationalizing the story to raise ratings. Their interest is creating the story that sells best, facts come second.

The media has chosen to sell the storyline told by the rioters and anarchists in the streets. They have chosen to interview only one side, those participating in these protests. But is that representative of the true storyline? Is there another side to the story? Of course there is.

I just got off the phone with a longtime friend- a successful Egyptian business leader. He believes that several hundred thousand people in the streets do not represent the 80 million citizens of Egypt. They represent anarchists, communists, and Islamic extremists- all with an agenda and axe to grind. He says if you polled the people of Egypt today, the majority would support Mubarak. He says that the backbone of Egypt- the business owners, small business community, and middle class still support Mubarak and the military. They are horrified by the mobs in the street and are shocked at Obama’s tepid response to the riots and the one-sided portrayal of the situation by the U.S. media.

My friend asked a simple, but powerful question. “If several hundred thousand people rioted on the streets of New York and demanded Obama be removed, would that represent all of America’s three hundred million citizens? Would the media report this meant the end of the Obama regime?”

Good question. If the Million Man march or the Restore Honor Gathering rather than being peaceful had decided to riot and firebomb the U.S. capital, would the media paint a sympathetic portrait? Would we cave to the demands of a relatively small number of rioters versus three hundred million citizens? I think not.

Has the media bothered to interview anyone on the other side of this Egyptian crisis? Has anyone gone out of their way to interview the shop owners or homeowners not rioting in the streets and ask them if they would rather be represented by Mubarak and the military or allow anarchy and mob rule to determine their leaders?

My friend explained that if the Muslim Brotherhood take over, he, his family, and virtually the entire business community will be forced to leave the country they love. If Egypt becomes a Muslim extremist country, tourism, the #1 business of Egypt, will be extinguished. Egypt’s economy will be destroyed and those who think they are bad off now will experience true poverty and starvation.

My good friend’s prediction is that in the end the military will end mob rule and remain in control, choosing to protect tourism and the business community. If Mubarak actually leaves he will hand-pick his successor from the ranks of the Egyptian military and institute some moderate reforms.

The lessons we can all learn from this crisis:

#1) The media coverage is often based on sensationalism, not facts. Are you certain who the good guys are here? I know I’m not.

#2) It is not the U.S. government’s duty or right to determine other nation’s leaders. Besides, we have an awful track record – see Vietnam, Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan. At most we should have influence behind the scenes and always in the direction of moderation, reform and democracy.

#3) We should dramatically cut or end foreign aid. The $2 billion per year we borrow from China to give to Egypt is a terrible waste of taxpayer money. And if we bet wrong on Mubarak, and our sophisticated military equipment falls in the hands of Muslim extremists, we have made a tragic error.

#4) Obama’s bans on offshore oil drilling are a disaster and a true threat to our national security. We must drill, drill and drill some more to capitalize on our own rich natural resources, so we are not dependent on our potential enemies for the oil that fuels our economy.

#5) Finally, perhaps we should appreciate our friends in Israel. Perhaps we should point out loudly and strongly that in Israel women and gays have equal rights. Perhaps we should point out that Israeli Arabs have a better life, more religious freedom, more free speech, more economic freedom, more rights than the citizens of any Arab country in the Middle East. Perhaps we should point out that the average per capita income in Israel is $26,600 versus $5,500 in Egypt. Perhaps we should point out that Israel represents an experiment in freedom – just like America – and perhaps we should encourage the Arab world to emulate that democracy.

Wayne Allyn Root is a former Libertarian Vice Presidential nominee. He now serves as Chairman of the Libertarian National Congressional Committee. He is the best-selling author of “The Conscience of a Libertarian: Empowering the Citizen Revolution with God, Guns, Gold & Tax Cuts.” His web site: www.ROOTforAmerica.com

230 thoughts on “Wayne Root: How The Media Blew It Again- The Lessons We Should be Learning From Egyptian Crisis

  1. Jim Duensing

    W.A.R.,

    Since the mass gatherings began after the Egyptian government shut down the internet, and since you are not on the side of the people protesting for their rights, are you for shutting down the internet here in America. Are there any circumstances where you would support the use of the American standing army on Americans if they protested outside of their free speech cages?

    In Liberty, with Eternal Vigilance,

    Jim Duensing

  2. Kimberly Wilder

    I think Wayne Root’s position is laughable, with underlying themes of elitism and racism.

    I did not need the media to tell me if the anti-Mubarak protesters were wrong of right. I examined the most simple facts: Someone is President for 30 years. Someone has no Vice President, though he used to be the Vice President. Clearly, that is a fake sense of democracy. A fake and hypocritical attempt to look like a democracy.

    Also, there is no reason to vilify the Muslim Brotherhood.

    I am not well-studied in who the Muslim Brotherhood are. I have only heard bits and pieces from the coverage of this situation.

    But, it is foolish for Wayne Root to use his breath and his platform to attack the Muslim Brotherhood. And, I can guess that Root is not well-studied on the issue, I can only imagine that Root jumped on the bandwagon to condemn this group, because of Root’s underlying hostility for Muslims and people on the left.

    I have a guess: Wayne Root is a rich, privileged, arrogant American man, whose friend is a rich, privileged man from Egypt.

    Funny how much they agree. (But, neither their agreement, nor Root’s thoughts on Egypt are very instructive to justice or reality.)

  3. wayne root

    I’m a little busy doing a dozen media interviews today…and giving a speech tonight…but I thought I’d respond quickly while I have 5 minutes.

    It’s interesting how my critics respond without actually reading or understanding my commentary.

    Where does it say I support Mubarek? It doesn’t. Where does it say that I don’t support what the people want? It doesn’t.

    What this commentary says is:

    A) You don’t know what the people believe. The news media may be deceiving you. The media lies with regularity to create a story that supports their agenda- creating controversy and selling newspapers or increasing ratings. The majority of the people may want Mubarek. Are you there? The people in the street may not be representative of what the majority wants. MAY.

    B) I stated very clearly that I don’t know who the good guys are. Neither does the media. Neither do you.

    C) Our government should stay out of it.

    D) We should dramatically cut or end foreign aid and put it towards the U.S. debt.

    A very libertarian/capitalist message. Wow, I would think Libertarians would love that message. Unless of course the people responding don’t care what my message is. Their only goal is to attack, demean and denigrate.

    Sad.

  4. jim

    Actually we can tell very clearly who the good guys are. For a week there were largely peaceful demonstrations taking place without event. The last couple of days secret police and government agents decided to step in and take the protests to a violent level. How is it difficult to tell who the good guys are?

    Secondly, the fact you think the US media is on the side of the pro-democracy protesters is laughable. The US media is pandering the fear by claiming extremists will take hold in Egypt.

    Egypt has been ruled by a dictator for the last 30 years. Anyone who opposes these grassroots pro-democratic protests cannot call themselves a libertarian.

    Unless, of course, you are taking the laughable position that Mubarak is better because the almost non-existent chance that extremists could take over.

  5. Jim Duensing

    From W.A.R.’s original post in this thread – quoting his anonymous and successful business leader friend in Egypt:

    “He says if you polled the people of Egypt today, the majority would support Mubarak.”

    From W.A.R’s first backtracking comment:

    “The majority of the people may want Mubarek. Are you there? The people in the street may not be representative of what the majority wants. MAY.”

    The word “may” does not appear AT ALL in your first post on the topic, W.A.R. It only appears in your retraction.

    It is fine to have legitimate philosophical differences about the foreign policy of our nation, but it is not fine to try and make up your own facts.

    In Liberty, with Eternal Vigilance,

    Jim Duensing

  6. paulie Post author

    Actually, while there are degrees of difference, I agree with most of Wayne’s conclusions. I don’t think that Americans can, from a distance and relying on news reports, automatically know who the good guys are in a far away country, especially in a rapidly developing situation.

    For example, if we were watching demonstrations against the Shah of Iran, we may have said yeah, right on, too. We didn’t know at that point that the Ayatollah Khomeini would be horrible for the people of Iran as well.

    No question the Shah was not a good guy, but was Iran better off just because he was gone?

    No doubt, the statue of Saddam deserved to be pulled down in Baghdad, but ordinary Iraqis suffered from a terrible civil war which followed.

    I think Wayne makes an excellent point about cutting US government foreign aid. Being the extremist that I am, I would say end it completely. All too often, money from the taxes of poor and working people in relatively wealthy countries like the US ends up in the Swiss bank accounts and villas of foreign dictators and their thieving hangers on. Even worse, US weapons often go into the hands of oppressive dictators like the Shah and Mubarak to be used against their own people, or end up in the hands of other oppressive dictators like Khomeini if there is a revolution.

    I agree that the US media is not a very reliable source of information about what goes on in foreign countries. At this point, we have no idea what will happen in Egypt as a result of what is going on now. It may be years of civil war, increased repression by Mubarak or someone like him, or Islamic extremists coming to power as they did in Iran and Afghanistan. Or it may be greater freedom for the people.

    I disagree with the “drill, baby, drill” mantra. I believe a true free market in energy, where risks and costs are not socialized, would probably lead to development of alternative forms of energy without government subsidies.

    And I agree to some extent that Israel is sometimes overly demonized. At times the rhetoric makes it sound like Israel is worse than all the other regimes in the whole world put together. However, overly effusive praise for Israel ignores some of the bad things that go on there as well. I would keep the US government completely out of that one, too. Get rid of the law that prevents Americans, as individuals and groups, from getting involved in foreign conflicts without the participation of the US government.

    Shutting down the internet and other sources for people to get their news is never a good sign. Regardless of what dangers lie ahead, I would stay away from anything that sounds too much like supporting Mubarak for that reason.

    The best attitude we can take from a far away vantage point with limited information is one of humility in admitting that there is a lot we don’t know.

  7. paulie Post author

    From W.A.R.’s original post in this thread – quoting his anonymous and successful business leader friend in Egypt:

    “He says if you polled the people of Egypt today, the majority would support Mubarak.”

    From W.A.R’s first backtracking comment:

    “The majority of the people may want Mubarek. Are you there? The people in the street may not be representative of what the majority wants. MAY.”

    The word “may” does not appear AT ALL in your first post on the topic, W.A.R. It only appears in your retraction.

    He says this is what his friend in Egypt believes. When he is giving his own opinion, in the conclusions, he says Are you certain who the good guys are here? I know I’m not.. In other words, he does not automatically agree with his friend.

    Unless, of course, you are taking the laughable position that Mubarak is better because the almost non-existent chance that extremists could take over.

    How do you know it’s almost non-existent?

  8. wayne root

    Wow- again my critics either just don’t read before criticizing, or choose to misrepresesent my words.

    I quoted from a businessman in Egypt who said if they voted today, the Egyptian people would vote for Mubarek.

    Nowhere in my entire piece do I say I thought that. That may or may not be true.

    I personally do not support anyone in office for 30 years. But the reality is that the choice is not dictator or freedom.

    We do not know what the result may be- but it could be much worse. For instant any attempt to make Egypt a secular Muslim nation would be a disaster for all involved.

    Having said that. I’d say my response is very Libertarian…in the end it isn’t our business. The people of Egypt must be free to determine there own future.

    Just be careful about who you think is the “good guys.” Or what is freedom or not. The revolution in Iran did not work out well for the U.S., the people of Iran or freedom. The same may hold true here. If that happens, say goodbye to what little freedom Egyptians have today.

    My commentary was not Pro Mubarak. It was about being careful what story the media wants you to believe.

  9. jim

    Seems a couple people aren’t all that familiar with history when citing the Iranian Revolution as their example.

    The Iranian Revolution was a great event for the Iranian people. The resulting war against Iran by Iraq, and supported by the US, was the reason the pro-democratic Revolution stopped dead in its tracks and turned the regime radical.

    The Revolution in Iran wasn’t the problem. It was the war that stopped the political reforms and turned attention to the external enemy.

    So citing the Iranian Revolution is fundamentally flawed.

  10. John Jay Myers

    I thought that I would really hate this article, and I only kind of hate the article.

    I was saying just last night that in Egypt we see 1 million people protesting, while 79 million remain on the sidelines, most of them at this point just want to get their mail, or go to work, or know that if they go to the store there will be vegetables.

    But as libertarians we should be emotionally on the side of right, which means these people should be able to live their lives how they choose.

    Now the big question is… are they? Or is the whole Mubarak regime just a patsy for the U.S. government where we give them money and they do what we say and make sure Israels southern border is not at risk.
    I think most would argue that is the case.

    I think a great deal of the people in Egypt believe this as well. Which is why we have rioting in the streets.

    It starts out with people protesting against what has come to light to be an oppressive government propped up by us, that they simply want reformed.
    Then the various sides need to take few days to figure out what they are going to do.

    So now you have the pro-Mubarak people pretending to be protestors and or just beating the crap out of people.

    You have people who just want this to be over who are challenging all protestors so they can go to the store and work and get back to their life, they simply don’t care.

    Surely there is also an extreme element that want to install a less moderate government. Who are plotting how to take advantage of this volatile time.

    Of course you still have people who desire freedom from oppression, who are now stuck between a rock and a hard place.

    One lessoned learned from Iran’s Green Movement was that once it was clear that the United States was calling its shots from a far, it destroyed the movement completely.
    No one wanted to be part of the movement that the U.S. was backing covertly.

    So about:
    #1 not really, but I know it is not Mubarak.
    #2 That is correct, and that is why the good people in Egypt want Mubarak gone.
    #3 So what do you intend we do about it? Do you can’t just say that, because obviously they have billions of dollars in military hardware right now, without future money. So… say it, say what you are insinuating. This however sounds more like Fox news anti-Muslim, Israel at all costs propaganda.
    #4 Yes, but we should be more concerned about breaking our dependency on oil as a whole not just foreign oil, and it’s none of governments business, we should have more nuclear plants than France.
    #5 No comment.

    okay, let me just say that if the region gets a little less stable, Israel might start rethinking some of its actions, and end their horrible foreign policy.
    You would never argue that Israel has a bad foreign policy. Not everyone agrees with that.

    Which is why I say yet again, we need to get the hell out and stay the hell out.

  11. Gene Berkman

    Jim is at least partly right. The Iranian Revolution against the Shah was carried with support of broad sectors of society, including secular liberals in the Iran Freedom Movement, bazaar merchants, Kurdish and other minority groups etc.

    Khomeini was in exile in France when the Shah left Iran. The apparently spontaneous takeover of the U.S. embassy by radical students poisoned relations with the U.S. and the Islamic militants were better organized than the secular liberals.

    Jim is also right that the U.S. backed Saddam Hussein’s Iraq regime when it attacked Iran and this helped the anti-American elements in Iran gain further power.

    All this might have ended in a transition to a more moderate regime in 2001, but after President Bush attacked Iran as part of an “axis of evil” the Iranians elected Ahmadinejad as a way of responding to Bush’s attack on Iran.

  12. not_bob

    WAR – I read your views of the Egyptian uprising. the entire tone of the article struck me as a support piece for Mubarek or another strong man style dictator. Claiming that when the populace finds the situation unacceptable enough to riot in the street and risk injury and death in an attempt to achieve basic human rights, when the people who have inspired the populace had to immolate themselves to do so – thats speaks volumes about the situation there.

    Murarek has heard a very clear message , get out! This is the very definition of libertarianism – the people taking control of their lives and their country.

    WAR – what more evidence do you need that the people want Mubarek out ? do you need a gallup pole toi see past the end of your nose ?

  13. paulie Post author

    I’ll do a quick brush up on Iranian history here in a bit. Let’s take some other examples.

    A bloody civil war followed the fall of a dictator in Iraq. The collapse of a communist dictatorship in Afghanistan led to the rise of a Muslim extremist repressive regime. Batista was a corrupt dictator in Cuba, but then we got Fidel Castro, another dictator. Dictators and absolutist monarchs in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia were displaced by communist regimes that murdered millions. After a brief democracy that lasted only a few months, the fall of the Czars in Russia led to the rise of the Bolshevik dictatorship. Many countries in Africa and Asia threw off European colonialism, only to find themselves under the boot of a homegrown dictator or with a civil war.

    All of those situations were different. The US was heavily involved in some, much less so in others.

    But, Iran is hardly the only example that can be brought up of a country jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

  14. Jim Duensing

    from W.A.R.’s additional backtracking posts…

    “I quoted from a businessman in Egypt who said if they voted today, the Egyptian people would vote for Mubarek.

    Nowhere in my entire piece do I say I thought that. That may or may not be true.”

    Why are you quoting your longtime friend’s anonymous opinions if they may or may not be true? Is it just to give you some political cover for expressing pro-Mubarak statements? Do you believe your friend is lying or wrong or correct? Or are you just including unsubstantiated opinions to confuse the issue?

  15. Thomas L. Knapp

    The up side, #1: Wayne finally brings in an op-ed at less than 800 words (797 according to wordcounttool.com). That’s great!

    The up side, #2: There’s actually a lot of good stuff in the piece if you’re looking for it.

    The down side, #1: On a cursory reading, especially of the first part, the piece definitely tends to a pro-Mubarak, anti-revolution flavor. Whether that’s intentional or not, I don’t know.

    The down side, #2: Root mentions a particular type of libertarianism (anarchism) three times, each time with a negative (and, frankly, dishonest) cast. It seems odd that he would go out of his way to do that, especially when there doesn’t seem to be any significant anarchist component of the uprising (more’s the pity — I’ve been watching for one).

  16. paulie Post author

    JJM @11 Mostly agreed. I disagree about nuclear power, though…if they carried full, uncapped liability, there may not even be any nuclear power plants at all.

    When you say So what do you intend we do about it? I think you provide the best answer, we need to get the hell out and stay the hell out.

    Gene @ 12 – Thanks for history brush-up.

    N-B @ 13 – This is the very definition of libertarianism – the people taking control of their lives and their country. True, however, it is right to be concerned about what may follow.

    JD @ 15 – Why are you quoting your longtime friend’s anonymous opinions if they may or may not be true? One reason might to be provide a contrasting opinion to what most people automatically (and IMO correctly) assume, which is that it is righteous to oppose a corrupt, long-time oppressive regime such as Mubarak’s.

    The real question is still, say he is gone, do we know what happens next? I can’t say that I do.

  17. Mike B.

    From the LRC Blog:

    Head LP Official Defends Mubarak
    Posted by Anthony Gregory on February 3, 2011 12:58 PM

    First he came out against the Ground Zero mosque. Now former Libertarian Party vice presidential candidate and current high official in the party Wayne Root, writing on the LP blog, defends the poor, misunderstood Mubarak against the Egyptian dissidents, whom he characterizes as “anarchists, communists, and Islamic extremists.” This from a man who calls himself “one of America’s leading Libertarian thinkers.”

    Well, we can say one thing: The notion that people with influence in the LP only shill for the American state is unfair. U.S. client states, no matter how authoritarian, are also worth defending.

    Thanks to Angela Keaton for the link.

  18. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    To the Mighty Mister P:

    any comments on folks other than DonLake referring to the pro war, 21st Century neo con, the Devine Dandy ‘Roots’, by his initials —— cause youse constantly chipping away at ‘Casey From KC’

  19. Observer

    Thomas Knapp @ 16: All four points are good.

    TK says: “Root mentions a particular type of libertarianism (anarchism) three times, each time with a negative (and, frankly, dishonest) cast. It seems odd that he would go out of his way to do that, especially when there doesn’t seem to be any significant anarchist component of the uprising (more’s the pity — I’ve been watching for one).”

    I am SO tired of Root insulting the left. He’s definitely doing it deliberately. Here’s another instance where he’s harming the Libertarian brand, and it makes me want to scream.

  20. John Jay Myers

    @16 Another upside was that he only mentioned Obama 4 times… which has to be a record.

    @18……….god dammit. And we wonder why people don’t take us seriously.
    Regardless if Wayne thinks his position isn’t anti-Libertarian… it is exactly the position that turns libertarians off.

    You know they say we need to expand the base, maybe we could start by expanding our libertarian base!

  21. Thomas L. Knapp

    Paulie @ 17,

    “The real question is still, say he is gone, do we know what happens next? I can’t say that I do.”

    Anyone who claims to know what will happen next is wrong. They might guess right, but they’re guessing.

    Whatever happens will almost certainly entail some blowback vis a vis the US government.

    Hint: When you arm, fund and maintain an authoritarian regime for several decades, the people who replace that regime are likely to be unfavorably disposed toward you in any case, and more so to the extent that being visibly so is good for their credibility with the populace they’re trying to please.

    The only real question for the US government is how bad the blowback will be, and what can be done to minimize it.

    To make the Iran analogy, if Carter hadn’t given the Shah asylum, the revolution there might not have taken quite the extreme anti-American turn that it did. The embassy hostage-taking might not have occurred. The alternatives to Khomeini might not have been weakened as much as they were before Khomeini’s anti-American onslaught.

    The best way to minimize the blowback is for Obama to completely, unmistakably, throw Mubarak under the bus, publicly apologize to the Egyptian people for ever having supported him, and announce that the US will stay the hell out of the Egyptian people’s way while they decide their country’s future.

  22. Libertarians for Duvalier-Mubarak 2012

    Since some Libertarians don’t care that Obama was born in Kenya.

    And since we have Bob Barr working for Baby Doc Duvalier in bringing hope to the people in Haiti.

    And since we now have Wayne Root correctly point out that Mubarak may be the only thing standing between the people of Egypt and total anarchy.

    Maybe in 2012, if it does not work out for them in Haiti and Egypt, the Libertarian Party could run a Duvalier-Mubarak ticket for President and Vice President of the United States. There is obviously a constituency for it in today’s Libertarian Party.

    Duvalier-Mubarak 2012: Experienced world leaders, bringing hope and preventing anarchy and extremism from taking over the USA as only they know how!

    Maybe we can fix them up with Hawaiian certificates of live birth in preparation.

  23. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    To the Mighty Mister P:
    on ‘nuclear’ power. da French have never, ever, ever had an incident and they almost always come in under budget.
    Replace the Department of Energy with contracts to Paris?
    and wind power: NOAA has the open prairies ‘horizonal tornadoes’ well mapped. [and that does not even consider DC. state capitols, and and town halls]

  24. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    libertarians for libertarian behavior Feb 3, 2011:

    Since some [A LOT of] non Libertarians don’t care that Obama * was born [where ever] ………

    [my Yokohama Momma ——– born in the west central town of OBAMA Japan ??????]

  25. Thomas L. Knapp

    “da French have never, ever, ever had an incident”

    Except for radioactive water contaminating the Saclay watershed in 1979.

    And malfunctioning cooling system fusing fuel elements together at Saint Laurent and forcing and extended shutdown in 1980.

    And five workers at Le Hague being hospitalized for radiation poisoning after a leak in 1986.

    And seven workers hospitalized after a breeder reactor leak at Tricastin in 1987.

    And an emergency shutdown after containment system failure due to flooding at Blayais in 1999.

    And a two-month shutdown at Manche after control system/safety valve failure.

    And the 2005 electrical fire at Cattenon.

    And 75kg of uranium in solution spilled into a river at Tricastin in 2009.

    And the fuel rod jam/shutdown at Gravelines in 2009.

    But other than that, no incidents. Maybe.

  26. paulie Post author

    TLK,

    Anyone who claims to know what will happen next is wrong. They might guess right, but they’re guessing.

    Whatever happens will almost certainly entail some blowback vis a vis the US government.

    Hint: When you arm, fund and maintain an authoritarian regime for several decades, the people who replace that regime are likely to be unfavorably disposed toward you in any case, and more so to the extent that being visibly so is good for their credibility with the populace they’re trying to please.

    The only real question for the US government is how bad the blowback will be, and what can be done to minimize it.

    To make the Iran analogy, if Carter hadn’t given the Shah asylum, the revolution there might not have taken quite the extreme anti-American turn that it did. The embassy hostage-taking might not have occurred. The alternatives to Khomeini might not have been weakened as much as they were before Khomeini’s anti-American onslaught.

    p] Agreed.

    Lake

    any comments on folks other than DonLake referring to the pro war, 21st Century neo con, the Devine Dandy ‘Roots’, by his initials

    p] I disagree with you and with others that Wayne is a pro-war 21st century neocon. His position is obviously much more nuanced than that, and evolving. Referring to him by his initials is not necessarily wrong; drawing inferences from them is, however.

    on ‘nuclear’ power. da French have never, ever, ever had an incident and they almost always come in under budget.

    p] There’s always that first time. I’m for a free market solution. Repeal the Price–Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act. No more war for oil or empire. No more subsidies of any sort, direct or indirect, for any type of energy development. Lift the ban on industrial hemp (including its uses for fuel). No more red tape stifling market innovation – the combined advantage taxes and regulations give larger, established companies over new and smaller ones. End all policies that allow corporations to socialize risks and costs while privatizing profits.

  27. Robert Capozzi

    Hmm, it seems entirely possible that protesters are a vocal minority.

    However, by highlighting the take from one source who is in the midst of the maelstrom, it’s predictable that some will view Root as agreeing with his Egyptian friend’s opinion of the situation. We know the media is biased and prone to amplify a dramatic situation because we all do this to some extent. We project. We are drawn to drama. The media feeds on the human condition when it operates from the “if it bleeds, it leads” perspective.

    It takes discernment and patience to separate the wheat from the chaff.

  28. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    # 22 Erik G. // Feb 3, 2011:
    “Wayne Root continues to embarrass the Libertarian brand ……….”

    [Lake: no, no, no, listen to ‘p’ it is that snarkie, Room Temperature IQ, moleish, ingenuous Don Lake. W. A. R. is the ‘perfect’ poster boy for Knappster’s and Phillies’ and paulies’ and Bruce ‘Jerusalem’ Cohen’s 21st Century LP. ]

    [Lake: The LP, America’s one and only peace / anti war party. ‘Headed’ by a guy PROUDLY wearing the label of W. A. R. ——- don’t take my word for it, ask Knapp and Doctor Phillies AND PAULIE!]

    *all my fault, all my fault*

  29. Brian

    What is wrong with this man?

    We shouldn’t believe the media, but we should believe a friend of Root? Seriously, this guy is an apologist for a despotic regime. His rhetoric is such that if I didn’t already know the author I would guess it was Glenn Beck. He brings up serious questions about how we get our news and form our opinions. I, for one, do not care about the guesses of an anonymous Egyptian businessman as to what Mubarak’s approval ratings are. Nice strategy though, Root, at least you understand that political success these days is determined by the amount of times the phrase “small business” is employed in a speech/article/discussion.

  30. paulie Post author

    TLK @ 27-28 – thanks for French history brush-up.

    RC @ 31 Agreed.

    FYIMDL @ 32 I have things that I agree with on, and things that I disagree with on, yourself, Wayne Root, Tom Knapp, George Phillies and Bruce Cohen. None of you are perfect, and none of you are its opposite. And I’m neither perfect nor perfectly terrible either. I’ve been wrong before, in thought as well as in in deed. I expect I will be again. That’s life.

  31. Robert Milnes

    There was no Iranian Revolution. There was an Islamic Fundamentalist takeover of the government which is by definition counterrevolutionary.
    Barr & Root & Ron Paul are counterrevolutionaries.
    Anyone should be allowed to join the LP.
    However only libertarians should be allowed party positions and/or candidacies.

  32. Jill Pyeatt

    Found on Facebook:

    “My sources say that it is likely that W.A.R. (he’s working behind the scenes, trying to get people in positions of leadership in state party affiliates) is really gearing up to take over the LP – or at least have major influence in it. Righ…t now, he is just one of many LP’ers who are vying for influence.

    Thankfully, he is considered a major joke in the greater libertarian movement.”

  33. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    Normandy Road Thomas, assuming your data is accurate, I here and now admit that I did not ‘receive the memo’. Be aware that the ‘spot less’ French record is touted long and loud ‘in some quarters’.

    If I am wrong, then I am wrong.

    So, is the LP still the only US peace party?

    Or am I wrong ’bout dat?

    Is that decades old Steak N Shake still at Normandy and Sylvan [Pine Lawn] ? [Across from the DECA hall?] Does that Jack [in the Box] and White Castle [both west of UMSL] still not clean their grills at night [as they are opened 7/24]?

    And the film White Palace [1986 or so] is a major gaff by White Castle. They would not allow their ‘Dog Town’ restaurant or brand name to be used for the Susan Surrandan (sp) vehicle.

    Apparently Starbucks pulled the same type of boner with ‘Central Perk’ [Central Park] of television’s ‘Friends’. Not just the minor parties, I guess.

  34. jim

    @12:

    I don’t think it would have took until 2001 to see a less radical Iranian regime. Had the Iranians been allowed to finish the Revolution, rather than fight against Iraq, then it is unlikely Iran would have formed a theocracy.

    The comments in 2001 simply led to a much more radical Iran. After Khatami left, Khamenei consolidated power and largely cut out the power of the President.
    ____________

    My Egyptian business friend said he cannot wait until Mubarak is out of power so he can experience the same freedoms.

    My anonymous Egyptian source who is a friend said it so that must give it credibility right?

  35. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    paulie // Feb 3, 2011:
    ……… Lake, what do the French do with their nuclear waste? Hmmmm….

    Don’t really know. They stupidly put their ICBMs on French soil, when they have a splash of empire ’round the globe.

    When I helped maintain and aimed American ICBMs, I proposed that spent fuel cells be packed into 55 gallon drums or even discarded shipping containers sunk into off shore ‘sub duction zones’ where they will be carried into the deep deep soil of the continental plate.

    Sending any ABC waste [Atomic, Biological, Chemical] down a long shaft in to non boundary ‘wells’ is much more iffy. [May be heavy metal batteries, like lead, cadmium, cobalt ……]

    Continental grinding / sub duction takes millions of years. Volcanoes and Mega Volcanoes [Crackatoa, Hawaii, Mount Hood, and biggie of them all, Yellowstone] are a great source of geo thermal energy but tend to blow every few millennium. Think Mount Saint Helens times ………

  36. @ Libertarians for Duvalier-Mubarak 2012

    Libertarians for Duvalier-Mubarak 2012 writes:

    “Since some Libertarians don’t care that Obama was born in Kenya.

    And since we have Bob Barr working for Baby Doc Duvalier in bringing hope to the people in Haiti.

    And since we now have Wayne Root correctly point out that Mubarak may be the only thing standing between the people of Egypt and total anarchy.

    Maybe in 2012, if it does not work out for them in Haiti and Egypt, the Libertarian Party could run a Duvalier-Mubarak ticket for President and Vice President of the United States. There is obviously a constituency for it in today’s Libertarian Party.

    Duvalier-Mubarak 2012: Experienced world leaders, bringing hope and preventing anarchy and extremism from taking over the USA as only they know how!

    Maybe we can fix them up with Hawaiian certificates of live birth in preparation.”

    Dear Libertarians for Duvalier-Mubarak 2012:

    The Party Formerly Known As Libertarian would never, ever do that.

    Ever.

    Not in a million years.

    Today’s LP would not – repeat, not – seriously consider nominating an African-American, or a Muslim/Arab.

    Clearly, you were not thinking when you proposed that such a scenario could be plausible.

    Although,f it were not for that glaring oversight in your strategizing, you might have had a point.

  37. Susan Hogarth

    Wayne says:

    “Wow- again my critics either just don’t read before criticizing, or choose to misrepresesent my words.”

    Do you think it’s possible that you are simply not communicating very well?

    Do you support ending US government aid to Israel?

    Getting oil by trade isn’t ‘dangerous dependency’. It’s trade. It amazes me how many Libertarians fear trade.

  38. NewFederalist

    I actually DO know what the French do with their nuclear waste but I believe it might be classified.

  39. Gene Berkman

    Jim @ 40 – I agree with your points. My point was that even with the missteps between the U.S. and Iran up through the 1990s, the Iranian people were moving in a moderate direction and would have elected a moderate leadership, except for Bush’s “Axis of Evil” speech.

    Of course, I could be wrong.

    Another historical tidbit – when the Shah was overthrown, and Jimmy Carter faced opposition to letting the Shah move to the USA, Anwar Sadat welcomed the Shah to Egypt. That basically indicated that Sadat considered Egypt his personal property and did not care what the people of Egypt or Iran thought.

    Sadat founded the National Democratic Party on the bones of Nasser’s Arab Socialist Union, and the NDP is still the ruling party in Egypt’s modified one-party state. The NDP is most similar to the PRI in Mexico before the PAN victory several elections ago.

  40. Thomas L. Knapp

    Lake @ 39:

    “So, is the LP still the only US peace party?”

    I don’t follow partisan politics closely enough any more to know if anything has changed in that respect.

    “Is that decades old Steak N Shake still at Normandy and Sylvan [Pine Lawn] ? [Across from the DECA hall?]

    My guess is no — so far as I know no such intersection exists any more.

    Does that Jack [in the Box] and White Castle [both west of UMSL] still not clean their grills at night [as they are opened 7/24]?

    I’ve never asked at the Jack in the Box. At the White Castle, their grills are visible from the customer area, and I’ve seen them being cleaned, but I don’t remember if it was day or night.

    “And the film White Palace [1986 or so] is a major gaff by White Castle. They would not allow their ‘Dog Town’ restaurant or brand name to be used for the Susan Surrandan (sp) vehicle.”

    Yep. They set it in a local diner instead. I thinkn I heard that place went out of business recently.

  41. paulie Post author

    Darryl,

    If you are trying to post an image or video, you have to either sign up to write at IPR, or just post the URL.

    I don’t know how to fix that.

  42. Kimberly Wilder

    “Libertarians for Duvalier-Mubarak 2012”

    Oh, my…that is funny, and just what Wayne Roots piece deserves in satiric answer.

    If you have not read comment #24 here, please do! It’s hysterical (although, the Obama/Hawaii comments take it off track a little…oh, well…)

    As someone who believes in Liberty ideas, but is not a Libertarian, I am glad to hear that many hard-core (albeit anarchist! in some cases) Libertarians found Wayne Root’s piece to be a whacky apology for an evil dictator.

    When there are people (including journalists and human rights workers) being arrested and assaulted in the street, it is not a light thing for someone to be questioning if the powerful, dictators harming them might not be so bad.

    (Did you hear that an Amnesty International staff person has been detained and is unaccounted for? Serious stuff!)

  43. Observer

    Kimberley, did you watch the video at 41? It’s pretty awful. I shows a police van deliberately driving through a crowd of protestors.

  44. Erik G.

    It should also be noted, though it is seldom uttered by right-leaning libertarians, that what is supposedly “good for merchants” isn’t always what’s best for liberty.

    A cursory glance of the U.S. alone should tell one that a significant number of merchants are more often interested in protected markets (for their goods of course, not others’) than free markets.

  45. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    Every year since 1998, Citizens For A Better Veterans Home nominates the Veterans Home of California – Barstow as an Amnesty International ‘watch site’ ………

    A death is a death, including all of those $100K California Department of Health Services fines and the demise of co founder Richard Oliver Sewell in 2001.

  46. paulie Post author

    It should also be noted, though it is seldom uttered by right-leaning libertarians, that what is supposedly “good for merchants” isn’t always what’s best for liberty.

    A cursory glance of the U.S. alone should tell one that a significant number of merchants are more often interested in protected markets (for their goods of course, not others’) than free markets.

    True…

  47. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    Susan Hogarth // Feb 3, 2011:

    Wayne ………… you support ending US government aid to Israel?

    Lake: That we know of: Three Billion Dollars per annum, the Billion Dollars per annum!

  48. Libertarians for Duvalier-Mubarak 2012

    Libertarians for Duvalier-Mubarak 2012

    Campaign HQ is looking for someone to come up with some designs for T-shirts, bumpers stickers, coffee mugs, etc.

    Please post a link to any designs you come up with.

    Winner gets a “get out of secret prison free” card.

  49. Darryl W. Perry

    #1) Are you certain who the good guys are here?
    No, but I can identify the “bad guy” & I know I support the right of everyone to decide if and/or how they are governed.

    #2) At most we should have influence behind the scenes and always in the direction of moderation, reform and democracy.
    Richard Haas, CFR President said something similar. http://www.cfr.org/egypt/egypts-need-presidential-change/p23958

    #3) We should dramatically cut or end foreign aid. The $2 billion per year we borrow from China to give to Egypt is a terrible waste of taxpayer money. And if we bet wrong on Mubarak, and our sophisticated military equipment falls in the hands of Muslim extremists, we have made a tragic error.
    I agree with the first sentence, though would go one step further & say, the United States should end ALL “foreign aid” as well bring home all troops worldwide.

    #4) Obama’s bans on offshore oil drilling are a disaster and a true threat to our national security. We must drill, drill and drill some more to capitalize on our own rich natural resources, so we are not dependent on our potential enemies for the oil that fuels our economy.
    The only reason any oil exporting nation is a “potential enemy” is due to US intervention in foreign affairs. As for offshore drilling; if businesses were responsible for the entire cost of clean-up of accidents, I’d support MORE drilling, however, federal law caps (and subsidizes) the cost to businesses of oils spill clean-up. Additionally, all federal energy subsidies should be repealed.

    #5) Finally, perhaps we should appreciate our friends in Israel… Perhaps we should point out that Israel represents an experiment in freedom – just like America – and perhaps we should encourage the Arab world to emulate that democracy.
    Instead of showing favor to one nation, I support the Jeffersonian philosophy of “Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.”

  50. paulie Post author

    #3) We should dramatically cut or end foreign aid. The $2 billion per year we borrow from China to give to Egypt is a terrible waste of taxpayer money. And if we bet wrong on Mubarak, and our sophisticated military equipment falls in the hands of Muslim extremists, we have made a tragic error.

    I agree with the first sentence, though would go one step further & say, the United States should end ALL “foreign aid” as well bring home all troops worldwide.

    Anything wrong with the other two sentences?

    I agree about end(ing) ALL “foreign aid” as well bring home all troops worldwide.

    The only reason any oil exporting nation is a “potential enemy” is due to US intervention in foreign affairs. As for offshore drilling; if businesses were responsible for the entire cost of clean-up of accidents, I’d support MORE drilling, however, federal law caps (and subsidizes) the cost to businesses of oils spill clean-up. Additionally, all federal energy subsidies should be repealed.

    Correct about the costs and risks. Let a real free market decide.

    Instead of showing favor to one nation, I support the Jeffersonian philosophy of “Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.”

    Amen.

  51. Darryl W. Perry

    @Paulie
    Anything wrong with the other two sentences? Nothing “wrong” with the sentences, though it only touches on a small portion of a much larger issue. One could get the impression that only foreign aid to Egypt is “a terrible waste of taxpayer money” as opposed to ALL Foreign aid being “a terrible waste of taxpayer money.”

  52. paulie Post author

    I would look at that paragraph differently.

    The first sentence lays out a general principle. The second applies it to the topic of the article. The third explains part of the reason why.

    I don’t have any problem with that paragraph.

  53. Tom Blanton

    It seems everyone is pretending Iran’s history began with the Iranian Revolution. Let’s go back to 1953 when the US & UK planted the seeds for that revolution by forcing out a DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED ruler and installing the Shah.

    I’m also wondering about WAR’s Egyptian friend. Could it be that Wayne is mistaken and that his friend is actually a Likud supporter living in Israel, or is this friend entirely imaginary?

    WAR might also want to consider the fact that oil reserves in America are not being utilized because of strategic reasons as opposed to these so-called powerful tree-huggers who won’t allow it. The market for oil is global, anyway. America can stop buying mideast oil if it chooses to, but the American oil companies don’t choose to as they see profit opportunities there.

    Maybe WAR should check out Al Jazeera’s coverage of the Cairo chaos now that Mubarak’s stooges are on the scene unleashing violence and his police are looting. The US media, with its liberal bias, isn’t reporting a lot of what is going on – like America’s long support of Mubarak, the CIA’s use of Egypt as a rendition destination, Mubarak’s bogus elections, etc.

    Maybe WAR should read more about the Muslim Brotherhood in sources besides the Likud biased media that he seems to be so well versed in.

    Since WAR thinks we should all appreciate our special friends in the socialist theocracy of Israel, does he think we should increase the welfare/weapons to them? I’m sure China wouldn’t mind lending America a little more.

    I’m also very curious about these anarchists that WAR speaks of. Are they Anarcho-Capitalists, Anarco-Syndicalists, or Agorists? Who speaks for them and what do they want? Perhaps WAR can call his friend and find out more about these anarchists.

    That is if WAR has time between his dozens of interviews and speeches where he spreads libertarianism, recruiting thousands of new LP members, raising millions of dollars for the LO, and getting hundreds of LP candidates elected – all while saving America.

    As for the Baby Doc/Mubarak ticket in 2012, forget it. These good men wouldn’t want to be associated with a bunch of radical absolutist liberals that want to legalize heroin for child prostitutes who own machine guns. Maybe in 2016 though, after WAR fixes the LP.

  54. George Phillies

    “The media has chosen to sell the storyline told by the rioters and anarchists in the streets.” That’s Root speaking, not his businessman friend. It is hard to avoid the observation that the characterization of the anti-Mubarak marchers as rioters is wrong, and the use of ‘anarchist’ is pejorative.

    It should be entirely unacceptable for an LNC member to be using ‘anarchist’ in a pejorative way,as in my opinion Root has done. The lack of “he called them ‘communists’ etc. ” in the quote is also unfortunate.

    The Islamophobia — sort of like antiSemitism, but with fine technical differences as to which Abrahamic religion you want to demonize — with the claims that a political role for the Islamic brotherhood would destroy tourism, is also unfortunate.

  55. Tom Blanton

    Perhaps we should point out that Israel represents an experiment in freedom – just like America – and perhaps we should encourage the Arab world to emulate that democracy.

    I’m not sure the Arabs in Egypt would like becoming second-class citizens and elevating the citizen status of Jews to being “more equal” like it is in Israel.

  56. paulie Post author

    It seems everyone is pretending Iran’s history began with the Iranian Revolution.

    Not at all. One man’s Mede is another man’s Persian….

  57. David Colborne

    I’m going to follow in John Jay Myers’ footsteps on this one – it took me a couple of reads before I settled down, made it through the first part, and read the conclusions.

    I like how the piece ends. #1 is absolutely true, partially due to media filtering and partly because it’s nearly impossible to find out what’s really going on due to Egyptian governmental interference. #2 is also a good idea. #3 is also a good idea, though foreign aid is basically a rounding error in the federal budget these days. #4 isn’t that big of an issue – most of our oil actually comes from Canada and Mexico, not the Middle East. Of course, oil is fungible, so it doesn’t really matter either way, but it’s still worth noting. As for #5, Israel is a much better example of democratic behavior out there than any of their neighbors; yes, the Palestinians are very much a serious issue and a major blot on Israel’s reputation, but it’s not like minorities are treated significantly better in Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, or anywhere else in the region. That’s not an excuse, of course – just an observation. That we vilify Israel over their treatment of Palestinians but pull a “Oh, those wacky Arabs!” whenever Coptic Christians go up against the wall in Egypt or whenever Hezbollah sets up a private militia in Lebanon has to be one of the most glaring signs of implicit racism in this country.

    It’s almost like we expect Arabs to be uncivilized.

    Having said all that, I really wish Wayne picked a different road to travel down to get to those conclusions, especially since it wildly contradicts conclusion #2. The truth is, there’s no way to know if the majority of Egyptians would keep Mubarak or not. We haven’t had a clear answer to that in over three decades now, and Mubarak has been pathologically unwilling to give the Egyptian people the ability to determine that once and for all. Is the Muslim Brotherhood any better? Probably not, which is why we should condemn them if they start pursuing similar policies against the Egyptian people. However, pretending that Mubarak is anything but a well-subsidized murderous thug who promises to leave Israel alone as long as we keep writing him checks is laughable and intellectually dishonest, regardless of how “stable” he makes things for the Egyptian small business owner.

    The Wagner Act kept labor relations nice and stable for four decades. How’d that work out for us?

    I will note that a lot of people in Iraq liked Saddam, too. That didn’t make what he did to the Kurds or the Shiites right, good, or humanitarian. Dictators are surprisingly effective politicians – that’s how they remain dictators instead of becoming dead.

  58. paulie Post author

    Could it be that Wayne is mistaken and that his friend is actually a Likud supporter living in Israel, or is this friend entirely imaginary?

    I suppose that anything is possible, but could it be that there really are people in Egypt saying the exact things Wayne relates? I see no reason to doubt his word here.

  59. George Phillies

    “If our sophisticated military equipment falls into the hands of Muslim…”

    Why worry. Similar equipment is already in the hands of Israeli Jewish extremists of the government of the Likud Party, whose use of it in Operation Cast Lead involved atrocities. And while there are non-Jewish political parties in Israel, they are substantially excluded from government.

    Ceasing to sell military equipment to this part of the world might relive some consciences, but it would be an interference with free trade, and it would not alter human behavior.

  60. paulie Post author

    WAR might also want to consider the fact that oil reserves in America are not being utilized because of strategic reasons as opposed to these so-called powerful tree-huggers who won’t allow it. The market for oil is global, anyway. America can stop buying mideast oil if it chooses to, but the American oil companies don’t choose to as they see profit opportunities there.

    Naturally, if they weren’t backed up by a trillion dollar military and a government that considers them too big to fail, they might reassess their priorities…

  61. George Phillies

    @69 Many rich Egyptian businessmen are delighted to have the dictator Mubarak, whose American supporters such as President Obama have by their support rejected the American political philosophy of the people by the people for the people, because Mubarak and his secret police crush all labor organizing.

  62. George Phillies

    @68
    There are a substantial number of vaguely democratically run countries in the Middle East.
    Turkey–their treatment of Kurds is limited
    Lebanon–With a really strange constitution and rules on who may have which office, but those are religious tests not political party tests and are an affirmative action program.
    Iraq–well, they do not allow the Baath party to run candidates
    Arab Palestine– though when Hamas won the 2006 elections we encouraged an antidemocratic coup against them
    Israel — except the non-Jewish political parties are substantially excluded from governing coalitions.

  63. paulie Post author

    #3 is also a good idea, though foreign aid is basically a rounding error in the federal budget these days.

    Well, if all you count is the actual foreign aid, and not parts of the US military budget that function as foreign aid, corporate welfare that functions as foreign aid, and so on.

    But even taking foreign aid billed as such alone, it has a disproportionate impact in terms of blowback.

  64. paulie Post author

    As for #5, Israel is a much better example of democratic behavior out there than any of their neighbors; yes, the Palestinians are very much a serious issue and a major blot on Israel’s reputation, but it’s not like minorities are treated significantly better in Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, or anywhere else in the region. That’s not an excuse, of course – just an observation. That we vilify Israel over their treatment of Palestinians but pull a “Oh, those wacky Arabs!” whenever Coptic Christians go up against the wall in Egypt or whenever Hezbollah sets up a private militia in Lebanon has to be one of the most glaring signs of implicit racism in this country.

    It’s almost like we expect Arabs to be uncivilized.

    Good point.

  65. Tell me He is not a Neocon !

    If someone where trying to pull the LP into the GOP, this would be the way to do it.
    I don’t see any true libertarian buying Roots crap
    perhaps this conformer should proof read what his writers give him before he passes it off as his own .

  66. Thomas L. Knapp

    George @70,

    “Ceasing to sell military equipment to this part of the world might relive some consciences, but it would be an interference with free trade”

    What portion of arms sales in that part of the world even remotely resemble “free trade?”

    My impression is that most US arms sales in the Middle East go something like this:

    1) Uncle Sugar, Inc. takes money from George Phillies’s paycheck, or borrows it from China and makes a note to itself to rifle George’s wallet for it later;

    2) Uncle Sugar, Inc. gives that money to Hosni Mubarak with the condition that

    3) Hosni Mubarak use the money to buy stuff from US arms manufacturers whose owners have contributed heavily to the political campaigns of Uncle Sugar, Inc.’s dual board of directors (House and Senate) and president.

  67. George Phillies

    @78 I suppose it is possible that we lend Saudi Arabia money to buy our weapons, but I suspect they pay for it themselves,

    You are right about Egypt, I think, but I believe the Israelis buy beyond our foreign aid levels.

  68. Libertarians for Duvalier-Mubarak 2012

    As for the Baby Doc/Mubarak ticket in 2012, forget it. These good men wouldn’t want to be associated with a bunch of radical absolutist liberals that want to legalize heroin for child prostitutes who own machine guns. Maybe in 2016 though, after WAR fixes the LP.

    Mr. Blanton may or may not be right. 2012 may be too soon. But for those of you who agree that the world can’t wait, for the hope and prevention of anarchy that onlythis kind of experienced leadership can provide the people of the United States.

    We need your help now.

    We need state leadership in every state, organizing Libertarians for Duvalier-Mubarak 2012 chapters to persuade Duvalier and Mubarak that the time is now.

    We need people making Libertarians for Duvalier-Mubarak youtubes, buttons, bumperstickers, tshirts, thongs, and much, much more.

    Let’s move up the schedule….no time like the present!

  69. Robert Capozzi

    Root’s last 2 blogs used the word “anarchy” or “anarchists”:

    “Barack Obama and the U.S. government have called for a “peaceful transition” in Egypt, in response to massive protests, riots and escalating anarchy.” 1/31/11

    “The media has chosen to sell the storyline told by the rioters and anarchists in the streets.” 2/3/11

    ATC, ill advised, IMO. Is he intentionally taunting the anarchists in the LP?

    While I find the notion of a stateless society something to be approached if not implemented for practical reasons, using “anarchy” as a pejorative comes across like a red cape to a bull.

    Unless he wants to throw down the gauntlet, Root should cease and desist this trend.

    IMO.

  70. Fun K. Chicken

    @ 81 You could start by setting up a website or blog. Maybe a facebook page and yahoo group too.

  71. Sane LP Member

    Too funny. There are not enough Libertarians out there to fill a basketball arena. And we worry about losing a few because of some comments from WAR? Give me a break. BW (Before WAR) the LP hadn’t won anything big and never will until we reach out to the millions of people out there that don’t vote for LP candidates.
    Some of you dudes scare off people with your constant ridicule of one person. Did you ever think of that? But you don’t care, because you want to continue another 39 years of 100% failure and keep this pig as a small debate club. What a joke.

  72. Bryan

    The press presented only one view because the protesters welcomed openly, the press to tell their side of the issues.

    When the “pro-mubarak” assailants threw their hat in the ring, they DID NOT want witnesses to what whas going down and coming down.

    Liberal or Conservative…it happened, and was the right move for both sides…of course if you support a dictator you never SAW television reports with “your guys”….because “your guys” were attacking the reporters.

  73. Michael H. Wilson

    Somewhere near the upper end of this thread someone mentioned oil. There is in the area of No. Dakota, Montana and extending into Canada what is known as the Bakken Play. Some claim it holds as much as 200-400 billion barrels of oil which if I recall is about as much as is in Saudi Arabia, or maybe twice that amount. Only in the last few years have the producer been able to get to any of it. No one knows what is really there, or maybe they are just lying.

  74. Sane Debate Club Member

    @ 85, and do you propose to “grow the party” by defending Mubarak and increasing aid to Israel?

    Those seem to be key components of Root’s “LP victory” plan. Plus lots of Obama-bashing.

  75. Bryan

    All the “drill baby drill” shit drives me NUTS!

    Unless we nationalize the oil industry…Exon, BP, and the gang, sell THEIR oil on the open market. We don’t and I don’t think we could make a significant impact on the world market prices. Even if we did nationalize the oil industry.
    Look it up…a lot of the oil drilled in Alaska ends up going to Japan…it’s closer and therefore has lower transport costs….

    So much for #4 of wayne’s solution to our problems….

  76. Gains

    Wayne is reaching out to rich, soon to be exiled Egyptians. Please do not interfere with his efforts.

    Sorry… I couldn’t resist 🙂

    But really, Wayne does say he is questioning media impartiality. Others have done that for instance with the invasion of Iraq or the events surrounding 9/11.

    Not my style per se, but I think he will find good company in 4th estate conspiracy theory circles.

  77. Paging Aaron Starr ...

    Paging Aaron Starr … paging Aaron Starr …

    Wayne Allyn Root requires your Damage Control services…

    Aaron Starr, please report to IPR …

    Wayne Allyn Root requires your Spin Control services… Please explain how Root’s article is a sterling example of principled libertarianism …

    Paging Aaron Starr …

    Please report to IPR and gasp in admiration over how Root “keeps getting better and better…”

  78. Alan Pyeatt

    Well, this is really a head-scratcher. I’m not sure who this is going to attract to the LP (other than Egyptian exiles, as Gains pointed out). I’m also not sure how this article could have any unifying effect with anybody who’s still left in the anarchist wing of the LP. So it’s hard to see how this article helps grow the LP, helps move America in a more libertarian direction, or even helps Wayne’s presidential campaign. If the (mostly) libertarian posters on this thread find so much fault with it, how will the Obama socialists and the McCain neocons see it? And won’t they be able use it as ammunition against us? To the average American, won’t it seem out of touch with reality as they understand it? KOOKY, even?

    Wayne, if you’re still watching this thread, I have a serious question: A couple of months ago, you assured me that the average American only sees the big picture, and doesn’t understand political nuances or details. (Therefore, your use of the term “Reagan libertarian” doesn’t hurt the LP, despite his many non-libertarian policies.) Also, during the 2010 elections, you urged candidates to avoid civil liberties and stick to economic issues, because voters didn’t care about anything but the economy. And yet, this piece barely connects the turmoil in Egypt with Americans’ economic well-being, and it’s full of nuances (what your friend said instead of what you said, what the Egyptian people MAY want as opposed to what they do want, etc.). So, why the change in tactics?

  79. George Phillies

    I’m sorry, but corporatist totalitarianism with dictators for life is not libertarian. Mubarak fails to be fascist because his secret police regularly crushed labor movements for the benefit of his corporate cronies.

    The Obama administration is working to persuade the Egyptian dictatorship to end itself. On this issue, Mr Obama has flipflopped 180 degrees and is now much more libertarian than Mr. Root.

    Perhaps LP national members should ask why the LNC is using its money in the form of its web pages and their amazing costs to lobby for totalitarianism.

  80. Steven R Linnabary

    On this issue, Mr Obama has flipflopped 180 degrees and is now much more libertarian than Mr. Root.

    Obama obviously has his finger in the air, not uncommon for a politician without any principles.

    Root might flipflop on his stated position, he’s done it before. It wasn’t that long ago that Root was berating Libertarians that publicly opposed TSA’s enhanced procedures saying that people don’t care about civil rights, that TSA procedures were merely an annoyance. But when the wind started blowing, Root quickly came out with a LIBERTARIAN position.

    So there is hope.

    PEACE

  81. Thomas L. Knapp

    AP @ 93,

    You write:

    “I’m not sure who this is going to attract to the LP (other than Egyptian exiles, as Gains pointed out).”

    Wayne has frequently declared that his target audience is “small businesspeople,” and he centers this article around a “successful Egyptian business leader.”

    It could be that the piece is intended to reassure Root’s target audience that Libertarians have their concerns in mind and represent a less tumultuous plan for political transition here than the one being carried out at the moment in Egypt.

    “I’m also not sure how this article could have any unifying effect with anybody who’s still left in the anarchist wing of the LP.”

    Root declared war on the anarchist wing of the LP in his 2008 presidential campaign. To the extent that he addresses himself to internal LP politics, it’s reasonable to assume that any time he ISN’T firing at them, he’s reloading.

  82. Robert Capozzi

    A few random reflections:

    – A friend of mine, born and raised in Tunisia, worked in the US for much of his adult life, became a US citizen, went back home a few months ago to be with family. He participated in the Twitter Revolution there, and is now back in the States are part of a team to convince the US government to freeze the assets of the former president. He claims that Tunisia is likely to remain pro-western and pro-democracy. Egypt, he says, is a powder keg, and the revolution there could go either way…pro-democracy or become “radicalized” and theocratic.
    – As a L, my impulse is to view these developments as opportunities to end US interference and aid to foreign governments. Were it only that simple, I would not engage in comment and support for outcomes, other than US disengagement from the region (and the ROW while we’re at it!).
    – Engaging in the details of foreign developments seems a fool’s errand. But, since the US is unlikely to disengage any time soon, is it possible to do as Root appears to be doing with this column…to take sides in developments that are none of the US’s business in the hope that these developments can be steered to a more positive outcome? Yes, I think so, but the pitfalls are many, and the downsides are not IMO minimized by doing so. Nevertheless, would a fall of a US-backed regime to a theocracy in Egypt be in anyone’s interest (aside from the Egyptian theocrats)? I’d say no. Should the US government use aid as a carrot to support the more pre-democracy forces in Egypt? My impulse is to say no, but it might be less “bad” than an Egyptian theocracy outcome, certainly in the context of the US already being very deep in the ME quagmire. Is the situation just too volatile to have an engaged opinion? Probably.
    – Rather than get wrapped up in drama, my sense is Ls should rise above it. Note that dictatorships – even ones that are US-backed – are in no one’s interest and are anti-liberty. History shows us that time and again when US taxpayers back a foreign regime, that regime becomes increasingly corrupt, leading to blowback and worse. The US needs to learn its lesson, though, and stop trying to manipulate highly complex situations in foreign lands. We need to back away for humanitarian reasons, even if the “humanitarian” or even “geopolitical” considerations seem compelling. As a first step in this direction, current foreign aid could be converted to in-kind contributions of food and medicine. While not the “perfect” solution, it sends a more positive message to various constituencies, including to the Tunisian and Egyptian street. Blank checks or munitions given to dictatorships is clearly not advisable, but the path to liberty is not something that is achieved overnight.

  83. Israel Firster

    Leave Wayne Root alone! He is only defending his favorite nation state, Israel. Leave him alone. I am crying now. LEAVE WAYNE ROOT ALONE!!!!

  84. Thomas L. Knapp

    Bob @ 97,

    Yes, a theocracy in Egypt would be a bad thing for pretty much everyone except the Islamists.

    But, as you say, “[t]he US needs to learn its lesson, though, and stop trying to manipulate highly complex situations in foreign lands.”

    Lots of people are both making and rejecting comparisons to Iran in 1979. There are certainly differences, but the similarities should be instructive:

    – The US worked to overthrow Mossadeq and install the Shah in Iran, then maintained him in power for close to 30 years. The US didn’t play as large a role in the installation of the current regime, but it has definitely given material support to that regime (if for no other reason than to hold the Camp David accord together).

    The Iranian people were at least suspicious of, and in some cases outright hostile toward, the US as a result of its installation of and support for the Shah. It’s reasonable to assume that similar suspicions/hostilities exist in Egypt due to long-time US support for Mubarak’s regime.

    – When the Iranian revolution began, the US at first acted to assist the Shah in remaining in power.

    This time, the US did the same for Mubarak for a brief period, but apparently remembered the lesson and cut back on its attempts to rescue Mubarak pretty quickly.

    – When the Shah was overthrown, the US gave him asylum and refused to extradite him. This raised the level of anti-US sentiment in Iran.

    Hopefully when Mubarak leaves (assume he makes the decision to do so before that option is taken away from him and he just gets put up against a wall and shot), the US will tell him “no, you’re not coming here.”

    – There was at least some chance for the Shah’s regime to be replaced by a western-type democracy … and US antagonism probably played a role in instead bringing Khomeinin and the mullahs to power. The US gave the Shah’s regime breathing space to try “reforms” including appointing resistance leader Shapour Bakhtiar to the prime ministership, but Bakhtiar’s decision to throw in with that plan instead of holding out until the Shah left without trying to appoint his own replacement discredited him and gave Khomeini an opening to keep the revolutionary wave going and ride it right over Bakhtiar.

    If the US overtly backs (or gets caught covertly backing) a replacement for Mubarak, that replacement will be similarly discredited and the Muslim Brotherhood will benefit, just as Khomeini benefited.

    The only thing the US government can do that’s productive here is BACK THE HELL OFF, express sympathy with and friendship for the Egyptian people, wish them well, and await their judgments. Any other course plays into the hands of theocracy/Islamism.

  85. Robert Capozzi

    tk, yes, it appears we largely agree. I’m curious whether you find my idea of backing off while leaving food and medicine appealling? Yes, to the extent I’d like to avoid the installation of a theocracy in Egypt (I would, in truth), it might be a good way to exit gracefully. But even if the food was delivered and a theocracy did take root, at least it might help to avoid mass starvation during a turbulent time.

    Yes, I recognize that the US doesn’t really have the funds to buy food, and that we currently are just borrowing the funds. OTOH, shifting paradigms generally take time. And, yes, perhaps the food won’t get to those who really need it the most. Some of it might, though, and I find my proto-idea a serviceable transition plan.

    Alternatively, I could be sent to Auburn to do 8 years of penance mopping floors. 😉

  86. Thomas L. Knapp

    Bob @ 100,

    If the choice is between the US government buying ammo and tear gas for the Mubarak regime or the US government buying food and medicine for relief in Egypt, I’d prefer the latter.

    But, I don’t see that either is desirable or necessary — or that the latter could even be counted on at all, given the US government’s failure to follow through on its aid pledge to Haiti in a timely manner.

    What I’d rather see — and it’s very, very doable and has been done many times before — is Americans who want to help Egyptians doing so through non-government relief organizations. I don’t know if the Anarchist Black Cross/Crescent has active operations in Egypt, but if they do I’ll likely donate to their relief activities. If not, their Red Cross/Crescent counterparts, perhaps.

    As an aside, apropos of Wayne’s mention of businesspeople’s attitudes in Egypt, via Salon:

    Hussein Afifi, 64, sat at the center of Tahrir Square with a cigarette in one hand and a newspaper in the other. His eyes are classically kind: small and almond-brown, shaped in thin, gray frames. He’s been a glasses technician for 30 years, and owns glasses shops in two cities. He says his profile is like anyone else who has “smelled the breath of freedom and can’t give it away.”

    “I now feel like a human being,” he said. “And it makes me extremely happy.” He’s come to the square every day since last week, leaving his home at 6 a.m. from Cairo’s suburbs. As the day nears sunset, he heads home to his ill wife. “This is about being ecstatic for the youth and what they’re doing,” Afifi said. “For the past 30 years we’ve been oppressed and asphyxiated. I’m here because everyone needs to feel like a free human being.”

    and

    Farid Ismail Abdel Halim, 53, is a pharmacist, father of six, and member of the Muslim Brotherhood …. Farid has been with the Muslim Brotherhood for 30 years. “Our goals haven’t changed,” he said. “We want America to stand for democracy and stop supporting an invalid dictator.”

  87. paulie Post author

    If the choice is between the US government buying ammo and tear gas for the Mubarak regime or the US government buying food and medicine for relief in Egypt, I’d prefer the latter.

    But, I don’t see that either is desirable or necessary — or that the latter could even be counted on at all, given the US government’s failure to follow through on its aid pledge to Haiti in a timely manner.

    What I’d rather see — and it’s very, very doable and has been done many times before — is Americans who want to help Egyptians doing so through non-government relief organizations. I don’t know if the Anarchist Black Cross/Crescent has active operations in Egypt, but if they do I’ll likely donate to their relief activities. If not, their Red Cross/Crescent counterparts, perhaps.

    I agree, but I would also add that humanitarian aid is a weapon of sorts too.

    If Egyptian rebels see US government humanitarian aid shoring up Mubarak, and then come to power, yes, they’ll hold it against the Americans.

  88. paulie Post author

    Alternatively, I could be sent to Auburn to do 8 years of penance mopping floors.

    Only if we can transport you back in time when I had an apartment there. 😛

  89. paulie Post author

    The only thing the US government can do that’s productive here is BACK THE HELL OFF, express sympathy with and friendship for the Egyptian people, wish them well, and await their judgments. Any other course plays into the hands of theocracy/Islamism.

    Exactly.

  90. paulie Post author

    He claims that Tunisia is likely to remain pro-western and pro-democracy. Egypt, he says, is a powder keg, and the revolution there could go either way…pro-democracy or become “radicalized” and theocratic.

    Sounds like an informed assessment.

  91. paulie Post author

    As a L, my impulse is to view these developments as opportunities to end US interference and aid to foreign governments.

    Agreed.

  92. paulie Post author

    Engaging in the details of foreign developments seems a fool’s errand. But, since the US is unlikely to disengage any time soon, is it possible to do as Root appears to be doing with this column…to take sides in developments that are none of the US’s business in the hope that these developments can be steered to a more positive outcome? Yes, I think so, but the pitfalls are many, and the downsides are not IMO minimized by doing so.

    Any attempt by the US government to support anyone in Egypt right now is highly likely to backfire, even if it is covertly, subtly, and/or with humanitarian aid. The people of Egypt are in all likelihood sick of being manipulated by Americans.

    Nevertheless, would a fall of a US-backed regime to a theocracy in Egypt be in anyone’s interest (aside from the Egyptian theocrats)? I’d say no.

    Actually, I’d say yes. It would be great for shareholders in military industries, military recruiters, pro-war talking heads…

    Should the US government use aid as a carrot to support the more pre-democracy forces in Egypt?

    See above.

    My impulse is to say no, but it might be less “bad” than an Egyptian theocracy outcome, certainly in the context of the US already being very deep in the ME quagmire.

    One could easily lead to the other.

    Is the situation just too volatile to have an engaged opinion? Probably.

    On that, we agree.

  93. paulie Post author

    Rather than get wrapped up in drama, my sense is Ls should rise above it. Note that dictatorships – even ones that are US-backed – are in no one’s interest and are anti-liberty. History shows us that time and again when US taxpayers back a foreign regime, that regime becomes increasingly corrupt, leading to blowback and worse. The US needs to learn its lesson, though, and stop trying to manipulate highly complex situations in foreign lands. We need to back away for humanitarian reasons, even if the “humanitarian” or even “geopolitical” considerations seem compelling.

    Exactly.

    As a first step in this direction, current foreign aid could be converted to in-kind contributions of food and medicine. While not the “perfect” solution, it sends a more positive message to various constituencies, including to the Tunisian and Egyptian street. Blank checks or munitions given to dictatorships is clearly not advisable, but the path to liberty is not something that is achieved overnight.

    See above.

  94. paulie Post author

    TLK,

    AP @ 93,

    You write:

    “I’m not sure who this is going to attract to the LP (other than Egyptian exiles, as Gains pointed out).”

    Wayne has frequently declared that his target audience is “small businesspeople,” and he centers this article around a “successful Egyptian business leader.”

    It could be that the piece is intended to reassure Root’s target audience that Libertarians have their concerns in mind and represent a less tumultuous plan for political transition here than the one being carried out at the moment in Egypt.

    Also, the Jewish, secular and Christian pro-Zionist community views Mubarak as a known quantity, and Mubarak gone as a potential threat to Israel.

  95. paulie Post author

    “I’m also not sure how this article could have any unifying effect with anybody who’s still left in the anarchist wing of the LP.”

    Root declared war on the anarchist wing of the LP in his 2008 presidential campaign. To the extent that he addresses himself to internal LP politics, it’s reasonable to assume that any time he ISN’T firing at them, he’s reloading.

    Correct.

  96. paulie Post author

    I’m sorry, but corporatist totalitarianism with dictators for life is not libertarian. Mubarak fails to be fascist because his secret police regularly crushed labor movements for the benefit of his corporate cronies.

    That’s not a failure to be fascist. Fascists in power have done the same in many countries. It is only when they are out of power that they rhetorically appeal to the interests of labor.

  97. paulie Post author

    All the “drill baby drill” shit drives me NUTS!

    Unless we nationalize the oil industry…Exon, BP, and the gang, sell THEIR oil on the open market. We don’t and I don’t think we could make a significant impact on the world market prices. Even if we did nationalize the oil industry.
    Look it up…a lot of the oil drilled in Alaska ends up going to Japan…it’s closer and therefore has lower transport costs….

    So much for #4 of wayne’s solution to our problems….

    Good point.

  98. paulie Post author

    @ 85, and do you propose to “grow the party” by defending Mubarak and increasing aid to Israel?

    Those seem to be key components of Root’s “LP victory” plan. Plus lots of Obama-bashing.

    To be fair, I did not see Wayne call for increased aid to Israel, only increased verbal/rhetorical support.

    He didn’t actually say whether he would increase, decrease, keep steady or eliminate US government financial aid to Israel.

    He did say that US foreign aid in general should be greatly decreased.

  99. Michael H. Wilson

    One point before I do some real work.

    The U.S. would not be in this mess if we did not support Israel. And we should not be supporting Israel because it is a state based on religion and that violates the first amendment separation of church and state.

  100. Darryl W. Perry

    MHW- there are several other countries besides Israel that are “based on a religion” that also get foreign aid; not to mention nations with state run churches that get foreign aid… the easiest (and best) thing wuld be to eliminate ALL foreign aid.

  101. Tom Blanton

    Two thoughts. First, the pro-Mubarak crowd wants us to believe that the people in the streets of Cairo don’t represent the majority. This is a meme that has been advanced by talk radio fascists in America and by WAR’s “friend” in Egypt (presumably, he listens to the Rush Limbaugh show in Egypt and got this talking point).

    Second, the pro-Mubarak crowd also wants us to believe that a majority of the Egyptian people would elect to have the Muslim Brotherhood run Egypt.

    So, what is it? A majority of Egyptians support Mubarak or a majority supports the Muslim Brotherhood, which wants to try Mubarak for crimes against the Egyptian people.

    The pro-Mubarak crowd can’t have it both ways, as much as they would like to.

    But I suppose that people who believe that ignorant illiterate camel jockeys that live in caves and want to go back to the 7th century also have the technical expertise to make biological, chemical and nuclear weapons, also will believe that a majority of Egyptians are both for and against Mubarak.

    To alleviate the anxiety caused by neocon/zionist cognitive dissonance, I recommend that Joe Six-Pack become Joe Twelve-Pack.

  102. Libertarians for Duvalier-Mubarak 2012

    Duvalier-Mubarak 2012 promise that, if elected as President and Vice President of the US on the Libertarian ticket, they will stay completely out of Egypt. As well as Haiti.

  103. Robert Capozzi

    tk102: If the choice is between the US government buying ammo and tear gas for the Mubarak regime or the US government buying food and medicine for relief in Egypt, I’d prefer the latter…. I don’t know if the Anarchist Black Cross/Crescent has active operations in Egypt, but if they do I’ll likely donate to their relief activities. If not, their Red Cross/Crescent counterparts, perhaps.

    me: Glad you (partially) agree. I’d prefer a Red Cross-type approach, too, but I don’t see that notion as ripe at this time.

    p103: I agree, but I would also add that humanitarian aid is a weapon of sorts too. If Egyptian rebels see US government humanitarian aid shoring up Mubarak, and then come to power, yes, they’ll hold it against the Americans.

    me: Yes, but exiting 100% (if that were a ripe notion) could also be viewed unfavorably, too. No matter what the US does or doesn’t do, someone will displeased. Make an assessment. Make a decision. Monitor the unfolding. Make adjustments. Deal with the consequences. What else is there?

    p108 quoting me: s.

    Nevertheless, would a fall of a US-backed regime to a theocracy in Egypt be in anyone’s interest (aside from the Egyptian theocrats)? I’d say no.

    p’s comment: Actually, I’d say yes. It would be great for shareholders in military industries, military recruiters, pro-war talking heads…

    me: Yes. That’s one of the big reasons with I like food over cash! I want to smooth things over while exiting. I don’t want to give US reactionaries and profiteers grounds for a counter-argument! Or at least to weaken their counter-arguments by mollifying/dampening/placating the Egyptian street’s anti-US reaction. I’m calling for striking a new path, but doing so by working around the resistance.

    Even if immediate disengagement was in theory was the preferred path, my assessment is that it’s beyond the realm of plausible possibilities.

  104. Carol Moore

    It’s really time to run this psychopathological neoconservative bigot out of the party. He’s gone past being an embarrassment to the LP to being a humiliation to all liberty lovers on the planet.

  105. Joe Keg

    Under Duvalier-Mubarak, Libertarians will purge other Libertarians. Under Milnes-Moore, it will be just the opposite…

  106. Observer

    Carol Moore @ 124:
    “It’s really time to run this psychopathological neoconservative bigot out of the party. He’s gone past being an embarrassment to the LP to being a humiliation to all liberty lovers on the planet.”

    Wow. Very well said. I agree with you.

  107. Robert Capozzi

    cm124-5: It’s really time to run this psychopathological neoconservative bigot [presumably Root] out of the party. …Let’s do it for David Nolan!!

    me: Is it just me, or is this an incredibly ironic statement? Nolan’s last act was to propose a LNC resolution to blunt an ongoing move by FL and ID’s state LPs to purge Root, yet Ms. Moore wants to outright purge Root in Nolan’s name. She may not realize it, but it strikes me she DISRESPECTS Nolan’s memory with these comments.

    Ms. Moore’s use of “psychopathological” may give us another datapoint in the usefulness of concept of psychological projection. When we perceive something in others that we hate about ourselves, we attack the other person, rather than address the dysfunction in ourselves.

    Until this public acting out of self loathing is addressed in the attacker, this sort of behavior should be deemed unacceptable. That it’s often considered acceptable or tolerated is IMO the far larger limitation for the LP’s effectiveness in advancing liberty.

    Is it any wonder that we now have a BTP and “Country” Party?

  108. George Whitfield

    I think Wayne wrote this article a little too quickly. He needs to pace himself and use an editor.

  109. Steven R Linnabary

    I think Wayne wrote this article a little too quickly. He needs to pace himself and use an editor.

    In Wayne’s defense, this is probably his biggest problem. It doesn’t appear that he vets his essays with a trusted person.

    I don’t write LTE’s without having somebody check it first for spelling, punctuation, and overall flow. I personally have a problem with run-on sentences.

    When my wife was alive, she would be my critic. Later I’d try to get a fellow Lp’er to vet my articles. If nobody is around, I’ll write it and then sit on it for a day or so.

    There is nothing more embarrassing to me than to have an otherwise excellent essay published only to later find a glaring error that hurts my credibility.

    PEACE

  110. paulie Post author

    RC

    Even if immediate disengagement was in theory was the preferred path, my assessment is that it’s beyond the realm of plausible possibilities.

    Your proposal is also beyond the realm of short term realistic proposals. If I’m going to ask for something that is not about to happen, I may as well ask for what I really want. It’s like Milnes fantasizing about Ron Paul’s $35 million, when he might as well fantasize himself Gates’s $35 billion or the US Government’s $3.5 trillion. He isn’t going to get any of those, so may as well dream big.

    Now, if you ask, would I find humanitarian aid alone to be preferable to military and financial aid? The answer is yes.

  111. paulie Post author

    Let’s do it for David Nolan!!

    The Nolan I knew and corresponded with for a few years was not about running people out. Don’t get me wrong, he could be ornery sometimes, but he was also in many respects a uniter and reconciliator. I think for the most part, he would agree with my strategy of engaging Wayne non-confrontationally and working to shine the light brighter on other perspectives of libertarianism as well.

    His final motion was not about running people off, even in the original unamended version.

    And IIRC, he was, like me, a Hinkle/Myers supporter in the chairs race, not a Hancock or Phillies supporter.

    He wasn’t shy about criticizing people when he felt they deserved it, but for the most part, he did it respectfully, with the aim of convincing them, not running them off.

  112. paulie Post author

    I think Wayne wrote this article a little too quickly. He needs to pace himself and use an editor.

    Wise suggestion. If you are still reading this, I’m not sure whether Wayne is still reading or not; you may want to email him about that.

  113. Robert Capozzi

    p132, Obama could tomorrow announce that his administration is re-purposing, say, 10% of Egypt’s foreign aid to in-kind food and medical aid. If that’s not in the realm of realism, how so?

    And, no, asking for what YOU want (or I want) is not IMO wise. You want no government. By asking for no government, you immediately alienate 99.99999% of the population. Why do that? To “ask for what you want” when what you want positions you as way out on the fringes does no one any good that I can see. Virtually no one will find that compelling. You goal is in no way advanced.

    Instead consider:

  114. paulie Post author

    Why yes, I just posted that yesterday on another thread. Notice the words but if you try sometimes you get what you need.

  115. Thomas L. Knapp

    Bob @ 123,

    You write:

    “Even if immediate disengagement was in theory was the preferred path, my assessment is that it’s beyond the realm of plausible possibilities.”

    Why would you say something like that? The US government does “immediate disengagement” all the time.

    I can think of at least three cases of the full-blown “fuck you, we’re done here, we’re calling our ambassador home, freezing your assets, forbidding our citizens to trade with you, etc.” disengagements that took place in a matter of days in my lifetime.

  116. Robert Capozzi

    p136, yes, now notice, however, that Mick and Keith provide no counsel regarding the form “trying” takes. If there is no X to be had and you want it, the Great British Philosophers might be interpreted as saying: go out and ask for X, but be prepared to settle for X-2. (“Sometimes” is also nettlesome and vague, as is “you just might find”.)

    Alternatively, it’s Glimmer Twins-consistent to, for ex., want X, but inquire about the availability of X, X-1, X-2, and X-3. Or we can just table our desire for X, knowing that there’s none to be had. They don’t tell us what the optimal approach is.

    Now the other, cross-island Great British Philosophers John and Paul had, I think, an even healthier approach to wish fulfillment:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnndQ7Q6p34&feature=related

    and

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEogJacjLTE&feature=related

    I think they benefited from their trip to India, but it’s all good.

  117. Robert Capozzi

    tk137: I can think of at least three cases of the full-blown “fuck you, we’re done here, we’re calling our ambassador home, freezing your assets, forbidding our citizens to trade with you, etc.” disengagements that took place in a matter of days in my lifetime.

    me: Not sure of the circumstances of your 3 unspecified examples. Would they be Iran, Vietnam and Cuba? If that’s a model to be replicated, I can’t say I agree. That Egypt has 80mm, borders Israel, and controls the Suez Canal renders it a rather important spot on the globe on many levels.

    If non-interventionism was the prevailing view in the US, perhaps the Knapp Plan might work. But it ain’t. It remains a minority view here. So, if Egypt were to erupt in the aftermath of US cold turkey, I don’t like the odds of the fools rushing back in. In this case, I prefer a tapering approach.

  118. Kevin Knedler

    @133 Paulie.
    I agree. As I worked with Mr. Nolan on the LNC for a few months, I had the same observation as you. Thank you.

  119. Bruce Cohen

    Mister George Phillies has come out of the closet as both an anti-semite and a liar.

    I quote him from comment #70 on this thread:
    ““If our sophisticated military equipment falls into the hands of Muslim…”

    Why worry. Similar equipment is already in the hands of Israeli Jewish extremists of the government of the Likud Party,…”
    [BC] Since when has the Israelis misused military equipment such as say, Hamas, Hezbollah, or Al-Queda?

    …whose use of it in Operation Cast Lead involved atrocities. …”
    [BC] Blatant lie.

    Israelis don’t torture captured enemies.
    Whether they be uniformed, or terrorists.
    THEIR OPPONENTS DO!

    Israelis don’t dismember and/or mutilate.
    Their opponents do.

    This is a lie and Mister Phillies, supposedly a scientist who deals in facts and uses scientific method knows better, but throws around such perjorative terms about Jews and Israel becaue he thinks he’s preaching to the anti-semitic choir in the LP. (Of whom there are many.)

    “…And while there are non-Jewish political parties in Israel, they are substantially excluded from government.”

    [BC] Another blatant lie.
    The non-Jewish citizens of Israel have the same legal, property, personal, economic, speech and politica rights, including that of participating in the entire electoral proccess.

    As well, the non-Jewish residents have the same legal and other rights and treatment as the non-Jewish non-citizen residents there.

    Mister Phillies, I am embarrased by your blatant bigotry and dishonesty.

    That can be the only explanation I can think of that can explain such blatant and obvious lies.

  120. paulie Post author

    146, link 2:

    Trying to remember if I was at that show.

    I made some of that tour, but as for which shows exactly…it’s kind of like what happens when you mix an elephant, a rhino, a whole field of psilocybin mushroom and peyote plants, and a 55 gallon drum of peppermint schnapps…

    What the US Government official position on Hosni Mubarak ought to be (warning, strong language):

  121. Thomas L. Knapp

    Bob,

    You write:

    “Not sure of the circumstances of your 3 unspecified examples. Would they be Iran, Vietnam and Cuba”

    Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan were the three I was thinking of (the Cuba thing began before I was born, and the Vietnam thing ended before I was old enough to grasp it).

    I agree that they aren’t the best models in the world, but the point remains: Yes, the US can do “immediate disengagement” and does so on a fairly regular basis.

    If it can do so in an unfriendly manner, e.g. as prelude to sanctions or war, what’s so implausible about it doing so in a friendly manner, e.g. by way of “we see you’re having a revolution at the moment — instead of continuing to support your oppressors or trying to manipulate the outcome, we’re going to just sit this out and let you decide when to get back to us.”

  122. paulie Post author

    http://polizeros.com/2011/02/05/head-torturer-to-take-over-as-head-of-egypt-from-the-corrupt-one/

    Suleiman, among his other despicable activities, was the CIA’s point man for extraordinary rendition. The planes would come in with prisoners, Suleiman would make sure they got tortured. Now, in the US plan, he may replace Mubarek whose personal fortune is estimated at multiple billions, no doubt mostly stolen from his people.

    Gosh, I’m just so proud of the US and Obama for wanting to make this happen. I’m sure the Arab street will be overjoyed and that there won’t be any negative blowback from this.

  123. paulie Post author

    NY Times:

    White House and Egypt Discuss Plan for Mubarak’s Exit

    By HELENE COOPER and MARK LANDLER
    Published: February 3, 2011

    WASHINGTON — The Obama administration is discussing with Egyptian officials a proposal for President Hosni Mubarak to resign immediately and turn over power to a transitional government headed by Vice President Omar Suleiman with the support of the Egyptian military, administration officials and Arab diplomats said Thursday

  124. paulie Post author

    Mubarak family fortune could reach $70bn, say experts

    Egyptian president has cash in British and Swiss banks plus UK and US property

    * Phillip Inman
    * guardian.co.uk, Friday 4 February 2011

  125. paulie Post author

    From the New Yorker:

    Who Is Omar Suleiman?
    Posted by Jane Mayer

    One of the “new” names being mentioned as a possible alternative to President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt, Omar Suleiman, is actually not so new to anyone who has followed the American policy of renditions for terror suspects. After dissolving his cabinet yesterday, Mubarak appointed Suleiman vice-president, and according to many commentators he is poised to be a potential successor, and an alternative to Mubarak’s son and intended heir until now, Gamal Mubarak. Suleiman is a well-known quantity in Washington. Suave, sophisticated, and fluent in English, he has served for years as the main conduit between the United States and Mubarak. While he has a reputation for loyalty and effectiveness, he also carries some controversial baggage from the standpoint of those looking for a clean slate on human rights. As I described in my book “The Dark Side,” since 1993 Suleiman has headed the feared Egyptian general intelligence service. In that capacity, he was the C.I.A.’s point man in Egypt for renditions—the covert program in which the C.I.A. snatched terror suspects from around the world and returned them to Egypt and elsewhere for interrogation, often under brutal circumstances.

    Read more http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2011/01/who-is-omar-suleiman.html#ixzz1D6jUxolx

  126. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    Nit picking, pinching tiny irritating pests: “Are these Jewish sources also anti-Semitic?”

    Technically arabs are also semitic, as is pretty much every one in the Levant [Biblical furtile crescent]

    Jewish, Hebrew, Israeli types can also act in imperious, fascist, nazi like ways, such as killing avenues of dissent [ like the Deform Party media organs]

  127. Joe Keg

    The question of what comes next is indeed a serious one that should not be blithely ignored, even as we celebrate the Egyptian people’s inspiring struggle to cast off the chains of oppression.

  128. Wayne Allyn Root

    Grrrrrr…….. Me Wayne Root, me hate Arabs and Muslims, Israel always right……..Grrrrrrrr…….. me love Israel, Tea Party rednecks and Ronald Reagan……Grrrrr……me dentist gave me the cheap caps……

  129. paulie Post author

    @161

    Since Wayne actually posts at comments at IPR sometimes, please don’t impersonate him. That is one of the very few rules we have.

  130. Observer

    GW @131 and SL @ 131: The same thing occurred to me Thursday, that Wayne just hadn’t thought things through clearly. If he’d put it aside a few hours before publishing the article, or shared it with someone else, he might have prevented the whole embarrassing episode.

  131. Observer

    paulie at 141: “Sympathy for the Devil” would definitely be my choice for a theme song.

  132. Observer

    Bruce Cohen @ 147: I wondered when you’d show up, Bruce.

    “Israelis don’t torture captured enemies.
    Whether they be uniformed, or terrorists.
    THEIR OPPONENTS DO!”

    Hey, no problem. The United States of America will hand out lessons in torture anytime.

  133. Michael H. Wilson

    re 147 last week I came across a video of Israeli soldier beating two Arab youths and later found a New York Times article on the same event.

    I guess beating on someone is different than torture.

  134. paulie Post author

    “Sympathy for the Devil” would definitely be my choice for a theme song.

    Not a Venom fan, then, I take it?

  135. Observer

    paulie @167: It’s not that so much as “Sympathy for the Devil” is one of my favorite songs ever (I’m much older than you are!)

  136. paulie Post author

    Well, that’s understandable.

    I don’t know how old you are, but I didn’t think the difference was that big.

    How old do you think I am, just out of curiosity?

    And no, I’m not guessing how old you are, unless you feel like saying it.

  137. Get A life and leave Wayne Alone

    Firstly, you don’t believe everything the Media says, they say what you want to hear. Maybe it time instead of blogging on here, to actually go out and talk to some of these people and find out what is not being said through the News Media.

    2ndly. I agree with Wayne, cutting off aid to Israel means, no strings attach and they can do what is necessary.

    3rd. For those who think they have the impression if you leave them alone they will leave us alone. Wrong. Hitler is one example. Also the muslim will cut your head off it you don’t believe in their way. Such as Allah. Go to Iran and live there for awhile and see how you get treated. they want to bring that lifestyle here. Don’t think they won’t. They are already doing it in Minnesota, Europe and other countries. Stop living inside a glass house.
    Muslim are not left, they are not right. They are for Allah and will cut your head off if you don’t believe in Allah.

    I know I am not going to convince you otherwise. But denial is a very bad thing and in the end can cause a too late wakeup call.

    I am sorry that some of you are not as successful as Wayne. And all you can do is cut him down. What is better than money. Maybe you should pick up a Bible and turn to G-d. You might learn something. Jealousy is a sin don’t you know.

  138. Observer

    galalwa @ 171: ” I agree with Wayne, cutting off aid to Israel means, no strings attach and they can do what is necessary.”

    I’m not sure that many of us on this thread would disagree with you.

    The rest of what you said–not so much.

  139. Observer

    paulie: I imagine you’re in your late twenties, or early thirties. I’m 55. Thant makes me ancient! It’s a wonder I can still walk.

  140. paulie Post author

    Thanks!

    Actually, 38, but I was doing things in my early teens that 99.999999999% of teenagers don’t do, which I reference fairly often, so some people actually think I’m older. I’ve more or less been living as an “adult” since I was eleven, although conversely, another large chunk of me has never grown up. Not sure how to explain that.

    When I was twelve, people thought I was 20. When I was 30, a lot of people still thought I was 20 😛

  141. paulie Post author

    ” I agree with Wayne, cutting off aid to Israel means, no strings attach and they can do what is necessary.”

    Did he actually say that? If so, where?

  142. LibertarianGirl

    WAR_The media has chosen to sell the storyline told by the rioters and anarchists in the streets

    WAR_They represent anarchists, communists, and Islamic extremists- all with an agenda and axe to grind.

    WAR_ask them if they would rather be represented by Mubarak and the military or allow anarchy and mob rule to determine their leaders?

    me_no offense Wayne but Anarchy is NOT synonymous with chaos…

  143. Tom Blanton

    Brian Martinez writes (in his article “The Tyrant Rehabilitation Party” at The Libertarian Standard):

    “It is shameful that the party of Nolan and Rothbard has become the party of apologists for dictators, but I can take comfort in knowing that as the Libertarian Party’s radical core has dwindled to nothing, so too has its relevancy to libertarianism in general.”

    I know there are plenty of LPers that whine about circular firing squads and debating clubs, but the LP is looking more like a suicide cult at this point.

  144. Matt Cholko

    Paulie – Please put up an article entitled – Wayne Root Says XXXXX. Then, for content, include nothing except “Today in Las Vegas, Wayne Root said something”. I’m interested to see how many comments it will get.

    As near as I can tell, any IPR post that includes the name Wayne Root in the title will receive at least 4 times that average number of comments on LP post. I’d like to know if all that matters is the name.

  145. paulie Post author

    Not always.

    See

    https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2011/01/wayne-root-on-obama%e2%80%99s-state-of-union-%e2%80%9ccash-for-flunkers%e2%80%9d/

    https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2011/01/wayne-root-the-obama-great-depression-why-there-will-be-no-jobs/

    https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2010/12/miss-me-yet-king-george-iii-its-time-to-throw-out-king-obama/

    https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2010/11/wayne-root-debating-jesse-jacksons-daughter-on-1-rated-morning-show-in-usa-fox-friends/

    https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2010/11/wayne-root-profiled-by-aol-news-today-as-2012-presidential-contender/

  146. Observer

    MC @ 185: When Wayne posts a positive article, he gets positive feedback. When he writes something that’s clearly not Libertarian, but doesn’t point out this it’s his opinion and not the LP platform, he gets angry feedback. No mystery here.

  147. Matt Cholko

    I should have said – Posts including the name Wayne Root in the title receive an average of 4 times as many comments as those LP related posts that do no include his name.

  148. paulie Post author

    He does get a lot of attention. However, not always. The five examples at 186 all include Wayne Root in the title.

  149. Israel Ignores the Aid Strings

    @ 171: “I agree with Wayne, cutting off aid to Israel means, no strings attach and they can do what is necessary.”

    1. The U.S. isn’t forcing Israel to accept aid with strings. Israel can refuse the aid at any time.

    But apparently, Israel wants the money, and feels it’s better off with the money, even with strings attached.

    So why is Root, and others, talking as though the U.S. is to blame, as if we’re forcing Israel to take our money?

    2. In any event, Israel ignores the strings. Contrary to U.S. strings, Israel uses U.S. weapons (and bulldozers) on civilians, and continues to expand settlements.

    Israel takes the money, ignores the strings, but complains anyway because that’s what spoiled welfare clients do.

  150. paulie Post author

    MHW

    That is interesting. The spread of information technology also played a big role in the fall of the USSR.

    Maybe this is the time for the Arab autocracies to follow the lead of the Soviet bloc, en masse.

  151. Michael H. Wilson

    I think this writer from Haaretz sums it up nicely for many of us.

    “Nobody knows where the revolution will end up: in an Iranian-style republic? In something along Turkish lines? Or perhaps something new, the likes of which we’ve never experienced? At the moment, there is no need to reply, but only to think and remember this: It doesn’t all revolve around us. And in the face of the Egyptian people’s heroism, we should bow our heads in humility.”

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/israel-isn-t-the-center-of-the-mideast-or-of-the-world-1.341177

  152. Michael

    An early comment said WAR’s essay was laughable. Indeed, it must be satire. WAR wrote it so people would laugh at those stupid libertarians. But, I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

  153. Michael

    Seriously, Hinkle’s ( LP Chair) essay is very good.

    Next time, please get it out before Root opens his mouth and embarrasses the LP and libertarians with his contradictions: “foreign aid is bad, but let’s keep Mubarak in power because one of my friends in Egypt thinks he is a good opponent of the communists and anarchists”. Root’s shallow analysis makes the LP look foolish.

  154. paulie Post author

    since it is riddled with false statements, I’d say No.

    Some of our posts are for the purpose of stirring up some discussion, so that everyone can express their own views of what they believe to be true statements vs. false statements.

    I am not taking sides here, and if I do put it up as an article I am also willing to put up an article with a different opinion if someone sends us one.

    As you can see from my own comments further up, my own view is much more measured than Sipos’ …however, that does not mean that his view does not deserve to be discussed, for better or worse.

  155. paulie Post author

    I think this writer from Haaretz sums it up nicely for many of us.

    “Nobody knows where the revolution will end up: in an Iranian-style republic? In something along Turkish lines? Or perhaps something new, the likes of which we’ve never experienced? At the moment, there is no need to reply, but only to think and remember this: It doesn’t all revolve around us. And in the face of the Egyptian people’s heroism, we should bow our heads in humility.”

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/israel-isn-t-the-center-of-the-mideast-or-of-the-world-1.341177

    Haven’t read the full article, but the part you quoted makes a lot of sense.

  156. paulie Post author

    Indeed, it must be satire. WAR wrote it so people would laugh at those stupid libertarians.

    I’ve seen no reason to believe that Wayne misrepresents what he actually believes. At times, he adjusts his views.

    I find it more productive to be nice. Maybe if my criticism is measured and I take the time to find the things I agree with and point them out, my criticism will be taken more seriously when we do disagree.

    Seriously, Hinkle’s ( LP Chair) essay is very good.

    Next time, please get it out before Root opens his mouth and embarrasses the LP and libertarians

    It’s kind of silly to expect LPHQ to set its press release schedule in anticipation of when Wayne might write something he hadn’t written yet.

    Actually, I met with Wes Benedict for lunch last month. One of the things we talked about was timeliness of releases. I brought up that some people complained that the LP did not have anything official to say about certain key issues, such as wikileaks, until after many other parties had commented.

    Wes told me that he can get things written very quickly, but they get held up in the LNC publications review process.

  157. Robert Capozzi

    p200: Some of our posts are for the purpose of stirring up some discussion, so that everyone can express their own views of what they believe to be true statements vs. false statements.

    me: Respect the sentiment, but editors need to be mindful that actual, obvious falsehoods do not deserve access to our headspace. The author of these falsehoods states facts that are not in evidence. All opinion is fair game. I can see how a mind reader might have a difficult time distinguishing opinion from fact, though.

  158. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    This is how we destroy our international power, over and over and over again.

    We claim to be on the side of democracy. We claim to support the right of people all over the world to govern themselves in liberty.

    Yet here is a bona fide revolutionary democratic movement, seeking to overthrow a corrupt and repressive dictator and looking to us for help, and we betray them to their overlords, while our enemy gives them succor.

    Why are we not true to our own ideals? Why do we always view it as more important to have a pro-Western government in power than to have a democratic one? Why are we always so stupid?

    It’s a sad day to be an American. Some day, I hope my country will be wiser than this.

    ——— view from abroad

  159. paulie Post author

    editors need to be mindful that actual, obvious falsehoods do not deserve access to our headspace. The author of these falsehoods states facts that are not in evidence.

    I haven’t decided whether it should be a separate article yet. So far the only feedback I have is that it should not.

    So, in the meantime we can discuss it here.

    What do you consider to be the actual, obvious falsehoods and why?

  160. Carol Moore

    Hey Capozzi, check out my response to you and David Nolan’s resulting ROLF
    https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2010/06/wayne-root-in-todays-washington-post-and-independent/ #217, 218. He too could get good and fed up when it was warranted. Root can really raise a Libertarian’s blood pressure through the roof.

    And just because his attempt to reign in Root was subtle, doesn’t mean it wasn’t going in the direction of setting up the infrastructure for a good boot to the Root.

  161. Carol Moore

    Actually, it’s too good not to share:

    Carol Wrote #217: By the way, Wayne’s got a Libertarian Party competitor for national attention: LP NY Candidate Kristin Davis (the “Mayflower Madam”). She has over 600 NewsGoogle stories today compared to Wayne’s paltry dozen. Guess he’ll have to go into another line of “victimless crime” to get that kind of attention… 🙂
    *

    218 David F. Nolan // Jun 25, 2010 at 3:41 pm
    Carol@217 – ROFL

  162. paulie Post author

    @207 Laughter’s a good thing. If I can’t laugh, who needs a revolution?

    @206 Infrastructure for booting? I don’t see it that way.

  163. Kimberly Wilder

    Paulie at #202 –

    Getting out press releases in a timely way, when one is working with a party or organization, is a classic problem.

    Of course, one person or one candidate can be quicker on their feet.

    But, some ways to alleviate the problem:

    Have press releases in the can, for things about to happen like “state of the union”.

    Have “pre-agreed, trusted, go to” candidate or opinion leaders, who when they write something up, like Wayne Root did, can then be “pointed to” on Libertarian websites and media by a quick yes/no vote of some body – maybe a media committee, or a steering committee whose instructions/authority gives them fast-track powers on the opinion pieces of a list of trusted spokespeople.

    Think of various ways for the grassroots, or enlightened pr volunteers to light a match under the committees when something really historical happens such as Wikileaks or Egypt. Part of keeping this system alive is having clear contacts for media people, so they can get quick, direct feedback when something is on fire.

    Oh, well. It is an ongoing struggle in any organization, especially a minor, political party.

  164. Robert Capozzi

    p205, because he says:

    “Wayne Allyn Root, defends current dictator Hosni Mubarak.”

    The most liberal interpretation I get from Root’s article is not a “defense” of Mubarak, but a different interpretation of Mubarak. Root does not outright defend Mubarak that I can see.

    and:

    “The Neocon “Big Tent” Libertarians (a lie, since their “Big Tent” has no room for Muslims, anarchists, non-interventionists, and other groups) promised to end the LP’s being a “debating club.””

    As a Big Tent L, I am certainly NOT a neocon. Most Reformers are not neocons, especially the founders and early supporters of the Reform Caucus. There certainly ARE anarchists in the Reform ranks, and I consider myself to be a non-interventionist. There are hawkish Ls who are Reformers, too, but the author misleads with his sentence structure. That, or his mind-reading capabilities are on the fritz! 😉

  165. paulie Post author

    There’s a tension between publication review and timeliness. Over the past few years, some people complained long and hard that past LNC staff were putting out things that many did not consider very libertarian. So, in response, a publication review process was established and de-established several times.

    Right now, the shoe is somewhat on the other foot, with the people on the LNC that defended the views of past staff (who were accused of a Republican/conservative leaning) saying that the stuff that Wes is putting out needs to be reviewed first.

    The people that pushed long and hard for publication review in the past have a problem in that the arguments they made then are being used against them, so the tradeoff is that some statements on issues that are controversial within the party – particularly anything having to do with war, international affairs and domestic privacy, civil rights and civil liberties issues related to war – are not addressed nearly as quickly as they could or should be.

    In other words, it is hard to credibly argue that Donny Ferguson, Shane Cory, and Andrew Davis, among others, needed to have their work held up in publication review, but that Wes and Art DiBianca do not.

    So, issues like Egypt, WikiLeaks and even the TSA do get addressed, and addressed well, but not as fast as they can be.

    It’s not the fault of Wes Benedict or Mark Hinkle, but a result of the fact that we have a lot of division in the party on issues such as those, including on the national committee.

  166. paulie Post author

    “Wayne Allyn Root, defends current dictator Hosni Mubarak.”

    The most liberal interpretation I get from Root’s article is not a “defense” of Mubarak, but a different interpretation of Mubarak. Root does not outright defend Mubarak that I can see.

    I agree with that. But on the other hand, that is the impression many people come away with, especially on a quick first read – besides some of the comments here, look at the posts from the Reason Magazine and Lew Rockwell blogs. It’s an impression that deserves to be taken seriously and discussed, IMO.

    On the other hand, no one has so far spoken in favor of publishing the article, so we can keep talking about it here for the time being.

  167. paulie Post author

    “The Neocon “Big Tent” Libertarians (a lie, since their “Big Tent” has no room for Muslims, anarchists, non-interventionists, and other groups) promised to end the LP’s being a “debating club.””

    As a Big Tent L, I am certainly NOT a neocon. Most Reformers are not neocons, especially the founders and early supporters of the Reform Caucus. There certainly ARE anarchists in the Reform ranks, and I consider myself to be a non-interventionist. There are hawkish Ls who are Reformers, too, but the author misleads with his sentence structure.

    I don’t mean to speak for Sipos – he can do that for himself. But, have you considered that Big Tent is in scare quotes, and perhaps you are not one of the people that this was addressed at?

    In any case, it would hardly be the first time we published people’s opinions for discussion – marked as such – that contained equally debatable statements/claims.

    But, as I said, we can keep talking about it here for now.

  168. Harland Harrison

    Root’s article, being well written, begins and ends with the points he considers important. He begins and ends with “message to America” and “friends in [the governments of] Israel”.

  169. Thomas L. Knapp

    Paulie @ 211,

    You write:

    “The people that pushed long and hard for publication review in the past have a problem in that the arguments they made then are being used against them”

    The only way such a problem could exist is if those people are now arguing against publication review.

    Are they?

    “it is hard to credibly argue that Donny Ferguson, Shane Cory, and Andrew Davis, among others, needed to have their work held up in publication review, but that Wes and Art DiBianca do not.”

    There seem to be two issues there.

    Is anyone arguing that Ferguson, Cory and Davis should have been subject to publication review, but that Benedict and DiBianca should not be?

    As far as the “held up” issue goes, presumably all sides would favor publication review, if it’s going to be done, getting done ASAP.

  170. paulie Post author

    The only way such a problem could exist is if those people are now arguing against publication review.

    Are they?

    Not, to my knowledge, against publication review per se. However, there are people who are unhappy that the LP is not addressing issues like this one in a more timely manner. These include people who favored publication review for previous LPHQ staff.

    It’s possible that they don’t realize that the reason that press releases like

    http://www.lp.org/news/press-releases/america-should-stop-interfering-in-egypt

    and

    http://www.lp.org/news/press-releases/government-officials-afraid-of-a-full-body-scan-of-their-words-should-resign-say

    Don’t come out sooner than they do is that they are being held up in publication review by LNC members who may disagree.

    As far as the “held up” issue goes, presumably all sides would favor publication review, if it’s going to be done, getting done ASAP.

    I’m sure everyone agrees that it should be done ASAP, but the facts on the ground are that it can be a messy, contentious and time consuming process, since many people in the leadership of the LP don’t always agree on how libertarian principles should be interpreted or applied to the actual issues of today.

  171. Libertarians for Duvalier-Mubarak 2012

    Libertarians for Duvalier-Mubarak 2012 is spreading

    Thomas Sipos writes at

    http://libertarianpeacenik.blogspot.com/2011/02/libertarians-for-duvaliermubarak-2012.html

    First, the Libertarian Party’s 2008 presidential candidate, Bob Barr, traveled to Haiti to support former dictator Baby Doc Duvalier.

    Now, the LP’s 2008 VP candidate and Birther conspiracy source, Wayne Allyn Root, defends current dictator Hosni Mubarak.

    One of the commentators on the above IPR thread used the handle “Libertarians for Duvalier/Mubarak 2012”. It wasn’t me. I thought of it myself, but as I was scrolling down, I saw that someone had beat me to it.

    If two people independently invent that same joke so quickly, it’s safe to assume that others will too. Reality lends itself to that joke.

    The Neocon “Big Tent” Libertarians (a lie, since their “Big Tent” has no room for Muslims, anarchists, non-interventionists, and other groups) promised to end the LP’s being a “debating club.” But they never explained that they would replace the debating club with a depraved joke.

    Even many Republicans and Democrats have disowned Duvalier and Mubarak, if only out of self-interest. It takes a Libertarian rat to swim to a sinking ship.

  172. Libertarians for Mubarak-Duvalier 2012

    These Duvalier-Mubarak people are off base.

    First of all, Mubarak should be at the top of the ticket. Egypt is a bigger country with more people.

    Mubarak is worth more money – something like 70 or 80 Billion$ US. Meanwhile Duvalier is trying to recover a paltry few million$ with the help of Bob Barr.

    Mubarak has 30 years in office. Duvalier lasted what, 15?

    It is an insult to say that Duvalier should head the ticket.

    Second, from comment #217 it is obvious that the Duvalier-Mubarak people are treating this whole thing as a joke.

    Those of us in the Mubarak-Duvalier camp are dead serious! We CAN, SHOULD, MUST and WILL get the Libertarian nomination and the Presidency of these United States!

  173. Libertarians for Mubarak-Duvalier 2012

    https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2011/02/wayne-root-on-russian-television-wwod-would-obama-act-differently-than-mubarak/

    Some of you people just don?t get it.

    When Wayne Root says that Obama might react to the riots and demonstrations in the same way as Mubarak, he did not say that would be a BAD thing.

    Mubarak is a hero for putting a stop to the communists, anarchists and Islamic extremists in Egypt. Barack Obama needs to do the same thing in the US ? NOW before things get out of hand so as to win the support of the small business leaders and millionaire Republicans that make America great.

    Since Obama is being so weak on anarchists, the Anti-Anarchist business leaders of America will run a strong Mubarak-Duvalier ticket on the Libertarian Party ballot line and get him out of office.

    As the first Libertarian President of the US, Mubarak will put a stop to the anarchists, just as he has been doing in Egypt, once and for all. As the saying goes, he?ll show them who?s boss.

    Obama better get the message quick: crack down on the Anarchists NOW or the Libertarians will replace you with a real leader like Mubarak who knows how to get the job done!

    See also: See https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2011/01/what-will-obama-do-if-egyptian-style-crisis-unrest-revolt-hits-america/

  174. Libertarians for Mubarak-Duvalier 2012

    Now, don’t get me wrong.

    The Duvalier-Mubarak supporters are may take this whole thing as a joke and they may want to have the wrong man on top.

    But, even a broken clock is right twice a day!

    At

    https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2011/02/liberty-for-america-february-2011-issue-is-out/

    Libertarians for Duvalier-Mubarak 2012 // Feb 8, 2011 at 10:46 am

    How about Hosni Mubarak and Jean Claude Duvalier for LNC At Large?

    1. They are not from Texas.
    2. They have high level execution, er, I mean, executive experience with running many (water)boards.
    3. Hosni Mubarak is worth like $70-80 billion. That?s nothing to sneeze at, folks.
    And Baby Doc still has a few mill if Bob Barr can help him get it unlocked.
    4. They know what to do with unruly, unhappy rank and file party members that get out of line.
    5. As Bob Barr and Wayne Root are demonstrating, serving on the LNC is a great stepping stone to running for President.

    If anyone can think of additional reasons why the LNC should appoint Duvalier and Mubarak to fill the two At Large positions please let me know!

  175. Libertarians for Mubarak-Duvalier 2012

    Why do some people think this is a joke?

    In 2002, the Libertarians were proud that they helped get Barr out of Congress. In 2006, Barr joined the LNC. By 2008 Barr was the Libertarian candidate for President.

    In 2006, Wayne Root had a book out called Millionaire Republican and endorsed a John McCain-Joe Lieberman ticket for P/VPUS. Then Eric Dondero recruited him to the LP.
    In 2008, Wayne Root was LP VP candidate and
    McCain was the Republican presidential candidate…and Joe Lieberman was very nearly his running mate. Dondero voted for McCain.

    In 2011, Bob Barr is supporting Duvalier and Wayne Root is supporting Mubarak, while Anarcho-Islamist Communists like Wes Benedict, Mark Hinkle and Lee Wrights are putting their heads in the sand, just like those Libertarians who worked against Bob Barr in 2002.

    Now, there are two At Large vacancies on the LNC, so here is what we need to do.

    Get Mubarak and Duvalier on the LNC now. Then get them the Presidential and Vice Presidential nominations of the Libertarian Party in 2012.

    We will get backing from small businessmen and millionaire Republicans all over this country, defeat Obama, and finally put a stop to the rampant problem of Islamists, Anarchists and Communists rampaging on our streets!

    VICTORY WILL BE OURS!

    Accept no substitutes for the real thing.

    Libertarians for Mubarak-Duvalier 2012!

  176. Fun K. Chicken

    Just say Libertarians for Root-Barr 2012 and you’ll be saying the same thing as Duvalier-Mubarak 2012, won’t you

    That would be Mubarak-Duvalier.

  177. Libertarians for Mubarak-Duvalier 2012

    @226-7 This is great news!

    If Wayne Root is not already in Egypt, or on a plane to Egypt, we need to get him on one ASAP!

    Hosni Mubarak couldn?t begin his journey of bringing hope to the people of the United States as the Libertarian Candidate for POTUS 2012 until he vacated his previous position as President of Egypt. That has now finally happened.

    There is an LNC meeting that will be filling two At Large vacancies coming up, and Hosni Mubarak needs time to gather support among LNC members and hangers on to convince them that himself and J.C. Duvalier should fill those two At Large seats in preparation for a 2012 run.

    Now, why is Wayne Root being all jealous of Hosni Mubarak?

    https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2011/02/wayne-root-mubarak-ego-plunges-egypt-into-tragedy/

    Is it just because when Mubarak comes to the US and gets on the LNC, he will immediately replace Root as the frontrunner for the Libertarian Presidential nomination?

    Perhaps Root is genuinely concerned for the hard working Republican millionaire small businessmen of Egypt, who may be about to get robbed of everything they worked so hard for by the insolent communist, anarchist, islamist peasants. This is a valid concern. If Mubarak did not move fast enough, Suleiman may not be able to hold on to power and the Anarcho-Islamist hordes may still take over the whole cotton-pickin’ plantation.

    Only one man save the people of Egypt now.

    And that man is Wayne Root.

    Since Hosni Mubarak will now be taking Root?s place in the USA, there will be no more need for Root here, and there will be an opening in Egypt.

    Root already has solid contacts on the ground in Egypt who can fill him in on the situation and provide translation services if they are needed. He can hit the ground running. With his winning personality, famous smile and hearty handshake, he can take charge of Egypt the way he has taken charge of the LP, prevent anarchy and restore order.

    Wayne Root already has extensive experience keeping anarcho-islamists in check within the Libertarian Party. He can do the same thing in Egypt.

    We need to get Wayne Root to Egypt before the diabolical Marxist mastermind Obama thwarts our brilliant plan!

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