Open Thread for Libertarian Presidential Nomination 2020

The Libertarian presidential nomination meeting has started. The day 1 broadcast is here:

Subsequent days will have their own broadcast at https://www.youtube.com/user/LibertarianParty

Credentials and adoption of agenda is tonight and the rest of the schedule is at https://lnc2020.com/convention/schedule/

This thread is for open discussion by delegates and non-delegates alike. I hope we’ll get some liveblogging but don’t anticipate having much time for it myself.

864 thoughts on “Open Thread for Libertarian Presidential Nomination 2020

  1. Anthony Dlugos

    agreed, RC.

    If I’m Sharpe, I’m dropping out unless its Gray or Jorgensen. Maybe Monds.

  2. Anthony Dlugos

    oh dear god, I can only imagine his philosophical contortions responding to that question.

  3. Jackie Perry

    Somebody please either make a Zoom add-on or a whole new videoconferencing service that has parliamentary procedure buttons people can push and keeps track of the order in which people raised their hands etc.

  4. Losty

    So far it has been… Interesting…

    2 Requests: 1 to vacate the Chair, and one to basically vacate the convention secretary.

    And we still don’t know what exactly will be done this weekend, and that may depend on who shows up from home every day.

    This will be Interesting on one level at least…

  5. Jose C

    Those of you causing trouble at the convention, stop it!

    We have to select our presidential and vice-presidential candidate now not in August or September. Time is short! We have a worldwide pandemic. States are on lockdown, the President has declared a national emergency, . . . How can we meet in Orlando or anywhere else? How? Explain it.

  6. Jake Leonard

    Some of these delegates don’t give a damn about ballot access this cycle. Illinois has their automatically this cycle from our lawsuit, so potentially kicking the can for further ratification in July is complete bullshit. Illinois’ filing deadline was pushed three weeks earlier from our July 31-August 7 deadline per the lawsuit to July 13-20.

    This would endanger our ticket four days before the first day of filing, even with the mandate of zero signature requirement.

  7. Losty

    So Going on 3 hours, and They don’t even HAVE an Agenda for this meeting?

    And they said Hot Dogs were hard to make…

    They may end up with NOTA by default…

  8. ATBAFT

    Kudos to Sarwark for not saying “F**k this S**tshow” and walking away. But then the night is still early.

  9. Losty

    I think whenever they do it, they need to move to re-elect Nick by acclamation….

    Just to see his internet blow up, or the hall (Signs point to his internet…)

  10. George Phillies

    If the convention cannot decide this weekend, states that need to do so should simply choose their own candidate and put her, him, or it on the ballot.

  11. Bondurant

    Poor Nick. There’s always a group in the LP looking to stroke their own egos with frivolous shit. I tip my hat to Nick.

  12. paulie Post author

    I think whenever they do it, they need to move to re-elect Nick by acclamation….

    Why do you hate him so much?

  13. William Saturn

    Interesting that of the main five presidential candidates (Jorgensen, Supreme, Hornberger, Gray, and Monds), only Hornberger lacks a wikipedia page.

  14. paulie Post author

    On deck today, presidential nominations. Also, highly likely, attempts to amend the agenda. The latter will probably come first.

  15. paulie Post author

    Jill Galvan

    Listening to the 538 podcast from four days ago. At the top of the episode they mention Amash dropping out and they literally don’t know who else is running LP other than Vermin Supreme and maybe McAfee.

  16. paulie Post author

    Via FB: Thomas L. Knapp
    27 mins

    My top pick for the LP’s presidential nomination is Jacob Hornberger. And I’m sure he’ll receive sufficient delegate tokens to be placed in nomination. Ditto my second choice from the current field, Vermin Supreme.

    So, if I was a delegate instead of an alternate, I’d cast both my presidential and vice presidential nomination tokens for Nicholas J. Sarwark.

    This convention marks the end of Nick’s tenure as chair of the party, so presumably he would have some time freed up to campaign, and he’s at LEAST as good as any of the other choices for either nomination, better than most of them, and possibly better than any of them.

    If YOU are a delegate, I encourage similar thinking on your part.

    Me: Not sure what the point would be for president. I expect if Nick got enough tokens to be nominated he would just decline the nomination. There are rumors he would accept for VP, but I don’t think that would be appropriate for an immediately outgoing chair, although I think he would make a good candidate otherwise.

    Knapp: Nick would accept the presidential nomination, or the vice-presidential nomination.

    I am stating the above as fact. I am not going to publicly offer any evidence for it. Believe it or not, your choice.

    Me (separate response to original): There are only two ways I could see this going. Either people would vote for someone who is not their choice, thinking their choice is safe, and enough people would do that so what they thought was safe turns out not to be. Or very few people do this and their sympathy vote does not get enough tokens for nomination. It’s possible to stumble on a happy medium by dumb luck but highly unlikely. I know of no way of knowing who got how many tokens before it’s too late to vote.

  17. paulie Post author

    This convention marks the end of Nick’s tenure as chair of the party, so presumably he would have some time freed up to campaign

    Currently, LNC elections are not scheduled til July. That could change. Not a fatal problem to this scheme, since if Nick were the presidential or VP candidate he could let Alex finish out the rest of the chair term, but unless the agenda is amended this online portion of the convention is not the end of the term Nick ran for and was elected to. Which puts any arguments he plans to make today for said amendment of the agenda in a different light, and not a very good one IMO.

  18. paulie Post author

    I’ve removed myself from my state delegation chat, which was keeping me constantly busy during last night’s meeting, so should have more time to help liveblog today and tomorrow. Would still appreciate some help with that though.

  19. paulie Post author

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/189510455174837/permalink/671732316952646/

    Joe Bishop-Henchman

    Thank you Mr. Joe McHugh for the robo wake up call

    Jared Hall: That was a NAP violation

    Tim Hagan: His robocall called me at 6:40 am! Does he know about Time Zones?

    Darryl Perry: in his defense, neither does Trump
    https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-reminded-of-different-time-zones-calling-world-leaders-2018-8

    Me: It will help more delegates make the start of the meeting, LOL

    Darryl W. Perry: I ignored it, and listened to the message from the dude who didn’t attend any debates, or do anything before spamming our emails yesterday & Calling us this morning

    Rebecca Lau: I saw him speak at the LPPA convention but he didn’t qualify for the debate

    Suzi Eltz: #IGotMine

    Me:

  20. paulie Post author

    Joe Bishop-Henchman
    Admin · 7 mins

    Vice Presidential nomination tokens are out, due by 3pm ET today.

    And a reminder presidential tokens due in 46 minutes (11am ET).

  21. paulie Post author

    John Phillips Jr.

    For those of you wondering about VP tokens being due by 3 with the possibility of candidates waterfalling:

    There is a rule suspension that is normally followed to allow those nominations. Mr. Sarwark explained that last night early.

  22. Bondurant

    How does one decipher those token results? Does this mean that there a people writing “Jim” or “Judge” on their tokens?

  23. paulie Post author

    There are separate lines for first and second name. Scroll down to last name for easier reading.

  24. George Phillies

    Some tabulation time needed, as the computer thinks JO, jo, and Jo are three different people. Agreement of the body that Gray and Grey are the same person may also be needed.

  25. paulie Post author

    Ken Moellman
    Admin · 3 mins

    DELEGATES — You need to be checked in now for Day 2. The POTUS nominating tokens are already due, and the VPOTUS tokens are out. You’ll see an ElectionBuddy email for each of these 3 things.

    There is a tradition of, upon the nomination of a presidential candidate, someone making a motion to convert POTUS tokens to VPOTUS tokens. This failed in 2016 but succeeded in 2008 and 2012. This is usually how POTUS nominees become eligible to be considered for VPOTUS.

  26. paulie Post author

    857 delegates credentialed at this time.

    Correction, that’s in attendance as of that time. I did not hear the actual number but 7/8 of that number plus 1 is 906. Do the math if you want.

  27. paulie Post author

    Motion to remove CAH as convention secretary. I did not catch who made it. Dog barking so I am missing some stuff.

  28. paulie Post author

    CAH states again she will sign the nomination certificates; her objection was to the LNC doing certain things, not against the delegates doing so. She can provide additional details some time later if she wants when she is not as busy. Obviously not during the convention.

  29. Anthony Dlugos

    I voted yes.

    The vote was worth it.

    maybe future leaders will take it as warning against stupid self-involved actions.

  30. Anthony Dlugos

    her actions up until she reversed course and said she would sign didn’t satisfy me.

  31. paulie Post author

    Fishman: about 35-45 minutes til presidential nomination tokens are finished being tabulated.

  32. paulie Post author

    her actions up until she reversed course and said she would sign didn’t satisfy me.

    That wasn’t exactly what we voted on, but I understand you voting to achieve the effect you wanted rather than offering a separate motion in the interest of time.

  33. paulie Post author

    I voted no. Per Richard Winger, the certificates are not even really needed. And the whole issue was hashed out on the LNC list. She said then she would sign the certificates but wanted to be able to amend the parts that said convention in physical location. The whole thing was petty and unnecessary and did not rise to necessitating the confusion and chaos that would result from switching convention secretaries midstream. There’s a definite learning curve to that.

  34. Anthony Dlugos

    yea, but you understand my reason for the yes vote.

    let that be a lesson to the next secretary to just pipe down and do their job.

  35. Carol Moore

    But technically speaking someone COULD sue LNC and Harlos/Sarwark for signing, including pissed off members and possibly trouble making attorney generals. So I can see why she’d want to cover her ass Also on LNC email list Sarwark said it didn’t matter if she didn’t sign cause… I can’t remember why. But at that point I didn’t look much further.

  36. Bondurant

    There’s a segment that won’t stop griping about online not being a “place” with the belief the online convention will keep the LP off the ballot. If these folks are this paranoid, what makes them believe a physical convention can and will take place when FL or anywhere else could use COVID-19 as a pretext to not allow the convention to happen? This has never been addressed as far as I can tell.

  37. Anthony Dlugos

    “with the belief the online convention will keep the LP off the ballot.”

    is that their genuine motivation?

  38. paulie Post author

    That’s what they say. We can speculate whether it’s the real motivation or not. I suspect a mix of yes and no.

  39. Carol Moore

    IF you think state law is greater threat than a probably weakening virus, for the summer and especially in florida, and especially because the people and the president are saying ENUFF ALREADY! then you may feel strongly about it. I’m not sure about the former, but definitely believe in the latter.

  40. paulie Post author

    Sam Goldstein
    Admin · 4 mins

    For the delegates’ information:

    The LNC Chair and the entire LNC are now in possession of the final revision of the contract approved by the hotel and the COC.

    The contract is confidential so don’t start asking questions about the details, but you can be assured that this contract is probably more favorable to the LP than any other I’ve seen in my years on the LNC.

    The convention hall will be 83k sq ft and meals will have enough room for social distancing. The COC will provide masks for those willing to wear them and will take other measures to make this convention as safe as possible.

  41. paulie Post author

    I don’t have visual on the screen (looking at this one) so if anyone who does wants to post the numbers before they are read out loud please do so.

  42. Carol Moore

    Tim Hagan, LNC treasurer, in line for a long time. Wonder if he has something important.

  43. paulie Post author

    Vohra and Amash 27 not eligible at this time for nomination speeches.

    Behrman 18

    Robb 14

    Ruff 11

    Ardeleneau 9

    Cohen 7

    Sarwark 6

    Sharpe 4

  44. paulie Post author

    http://ballot-access.org/2020/05/23/six-candidates-for-president-at-libertarian-convention-qualify-to-be-nominated/

    Six Candidates for President at Libertarian Convention Qualify to be Nominated
    Posted on May 23, 2020 by Richard Winger

    On Saturday, May 23, the virtual Libertarian national convention process determined that six individuals are eligible to be placed in nomination. The six candidates, and the number of tokens each received, are: Jacob Hornberger 218, Jo Jorgensen 193, Vermin Supreme 103, John Monds 95, Jim Gray 89, and Adam Kokesh 58.

    Congressman Justin Amash said on May 23 that he is honored that some delegates want to draft him, but that he would not accept the presidential nomination even if the convention were to draft him.

  45. paulie Post author

    Good. Everyone who really should have made it did, and the gap to the next candidates was large.

    Arvin has 27, 3 short of 30. That’s not a large gap. Whether you think he should have been nominated is a separate issue.

  46. paulie Post author

    Motion to have P candidates who don’t get it be placed in nomination for VP

    51%, but not 2/3. Fails.

  47. paulie Post author

    Pat Dixon (I think) moves to nominate president and VP by approval voting with 50% plus one threshold, with subsequent rounds if no one gets that threshold using the normal striking procedure for subsequent rounds.

  48. Losty

    There may not be a great deal we agree on, Though there is a decent amount,

    But after this if he does not wish to be a candidate, Nick needs a Very Long Vacation, and an unlimited bar tab paid for by the Party…

    I am shocked he is still as sane as he was as he was 3 weeks ago….

  49. paulie Post author

    211 yes
    700 No

    (On approval voting for p and vp)

    Good. I used to be for it, but it’s been a disaster in LNC and JC elections.

  50. paulie Post author

    Behrman fails with 75% against. Notably, even though Vohra got more tokens than Behrman, more people opposed suspending the rules to allow Vohra to be considered.

  51. George Phillies

    ” Good. Everyone who really should have made it did, and the gap to the next candidates was large.

    Arvin has 27, 3 short of 30. That’s not a large gap. Whether you think he should have been nominated is a separate issue.”

    The gap was a factor of two, which is respectably large.

  52. NewFederalist

    If Vermin Supreme actually wins the presidential nomination they just gotta let Behrman be his running mate!

  53. paulie Post author

    Larry Sharpe, Libertarian for VP
    16 mins

    I’ve had a few LP delegates reach out to me today for clarity: I do NOT believe that the other LP Presidential Candidates actually want me and my plan. NONE have indicated so to me. And NO caucuses have endorsed me or my plan. ONLY Judge Jim Gray has embraced both me and my plan. Accordingly, it doesn’t make sense for me to run for VP if the Judge doesn’t become our nominee. We won’t message and campaign effectively and we won’t be able raise money or make the impact that I believe is necessary. I hope that is clear. I will still be with the party either way. Thank you all for your support.

  54. paulie Post author

    If Vermin Supreme actually wins the presidential nomination they just gotta let Behrman be his running mate!

    Sadly, neither seems likely. But Vermin’s running mate, Spike Cohen, does seem to have a good shot at VP.

  55. paulie Post author

    Gizzareli moves to suspend rules to give candidates who got 9 or more tokens to get a 3 minute speech.

  56. Bondurant

    This is painful. Your friends didn’t get the necessary tokens. Accept and move on.

  57. Losty

    Anyone for Bill Weld?
    Gary Johnson?
    The Ghost of Tom Joad?

    Betelgeuse?

    Motion to Allow Boos???
    Really???

  58. Bondurant

    If you’re going to make mockery of this process at least put up for vote someone like Hank the Angry Drunken Dwarf or Eric the Midget.

  59. paulie Post author

    Can Joe Exotic be nominated for VP still?

    Pretty sure he did not get enough tokens for that, although I have not seen the running results link (anyone have it handy?). The vote is still open, and one of these suspend the rules motions would be in order if he is in fact qualified.

    Robb fails with 88%.

    Richard Fast moves to suspend the rules to allow Kim Ruff to be nominated. Sarwark rules it dilatory.

    Starr moves to close nominations.

  60. paulie Post author

    Noah Oliver Rhys

    I want to make it very clear. Every single one of the “suspend the rules to add ” {losing presidential candidate} is going on the Florabama Gator list.

  61. paulie Post author

    Sarwark rules motion to place Jedi Hill in nomination is dilatory.

    But he allows nominating himself to go to forward. IMO chair was out of order in ruling on that at all. Should have turned over the gavel to Alex on that one.

  62. Bondurant

    Why are the requests to nominate Ruff and Hill dilatory but not the request for Sarwark? Not the best move unless I missed reasons why the previous were ruled dilatory.

  63. paulie Post author

    Sarwark rules motion to place Jedi Hill in nomination is dilatory.

    But he allows nominating himself to go to forward. IMO chair was out of order in ruling on that at all. Should have turned over the gavel to Alex on that one.

    Also a bad look considering he ruled some of these motions dilatory and others not.

  64. paulie Post author

    Why are the requests to nominate Ruff and Hill dilatory but not the request for Sarwark? Not the best move unless I missed reasons why the previous were ruled dilatory.

    Agreed, and especially improper in that he did not turn the gavel over on himself.

  65. paulie Post author

    Sarwark moves 1 minute speeches at 15 tokens or more dilatory as being too similar to the motion that failed by a large margin earlier.

  66. paulie Post author

    Dilatory motion to nominate flaming meteor for president.

    Nominations closed. Just the 6 that got enough tokens, none of the motions to add more passed.

  67. paulie Post author

    Dan “Taxation Is Theft” Behrman for President 2020
    5 mins

    I did not make the ballot for the LP POTUS Nomination. I am changing my campaign affiliation to independent and will continue this race until the general election. I endorse Vermin Supreme for President for the Libertarian nomination as worthy opponents in the general election.

  68. paulie Post author

    Avens O’Brien:

    I’m honored to be giving a nominating speech for Vermin Supreme for President at the convention today.

    I think he is a radical choice: he & his VP will offer a campaign in alignment with our platform, and his VP has particular command of our principles that will present a radical option to Americans.

    I think he is a pragmatic choice: it is pragmatic to recognize none of our candidates are going to win, and that our chance is to reach millions of Americans with a libertarian message to move the Overton Window with a message of hope and empowerment. Vermin will reach more than any other candidate.

    I think he is the best choice: for any of the reasons I list in this article.

    https://thelibertarianrepublic.com/politics-is-a-joke-but-what-if-the-libertarian-party-was-in-on-it/

    I ask for delegates to consider something new, and give the major parties the boot.

  69. paulie Post author

    Joe Bishop-Henchman
    Admin · Just now

    Order of presidential nomination speeches (each gets a maximum of 16 minutes of floor time, however they want to divvy it up):

    Monds
    Kokesh
    Jorgensen
    Hornberger
    Gray
    Supreme

  70. Michigan Voter

    Wow, you can see who the social misfits are. These contrarians who waste everyone’s time to nominate someone, even though everyone is sick of it dragging on, are the same people who make their local city council and school board members go down a different aisle if they see them in a grocery store.

    Their intent is to get attention for themselves by making everyone mad. It’s their way of feeling like they are making a difference in the world. Pathetic.

  71. paulie Post author

    I guess I’ll switch my prediction to Jo/Spike.

    Same, unless it’s one of the other presidential candidates who does not get it such as Monds or Hornberger.

  72. paulie Post author

    For the record. The Ruff/Phillips campaign (retired)
    endorses Vermin Supreme for POTUS and Spike Cohen for VP.
    In case we do not get to speak

  73. Anthony Dlugos

    I was thinking hornberger, but I figured a guy like that wouldn’t deign to be second fiddle.

    I’d prefer Jo/Monds. But I just surmised that that Vermin supporters would pull an “Anyone But Weld” type tactic and rally support behind Spike as a consolation prize.

    I’m somewhat surprised Shape didn’t wait to see who won the Prez nomination.

  74. paulie Post author

    I was thinking hornberger, but I figured a guy like that wouldn’t deign to be second fiddle.

    I’d prefer Jo/Monds.

    Agreed on both counts.

    But I just surmised that that Vermin supporters would pull an “Anyone But Weld” type tactic and rally support behind Spike as a consolation prize.

    Not quite the same dynamic. There is no VP candidate with the same support OR opposition levels of Weld this time. Even if Supreme delegates were to do that, my guess is there aren’t enough to get Spike in, unless a lot of other delegates agree and join in. We shall see.

  75. NewFederalist

    Drat!
    To which comment or thing are you referring?

    My dream ticket of the Mad Hatters going down the drain!

  76. NewFederalist

    I would like to see Jorgensen/Hornberger myself but I don’t see much chance of that happening. Monds would be fine, too.

  77. Michigan Voter

    I predict the ticket will be Jorgensen/Sarwark.

    My second guess would be Jorgensen/Monds.

  78. Anthony Dlugos

    “Not quite the same dynamic. There is no VP candidate with the same support OR opposition levels of Weld this time. Even if Supreme delegates were to do that, my guess is there aren’t enough to get Spike in, unless a lot of other delegates agree and join in. We shall see.”

    you’re right, not quite the same. I couldn’t think of a closer analogy.

    and I did contemplate your second sentence…is there enough support to get Spike in? I factored in that I thought he sounded articulate during the debate,. Then I thought there would be enough sentiment to choose someone who actually ran for vice president and things would overall break his way.

    But it was a toss-up in my mind…Sharpe backing out makes both votes potentially quite interesting when the horse-trading begins.

  79. Losty

    Please have them confirm that NOTA is on the ballot.

    It would be interesting to see how many votes they get now that many smaller candidates have not qualified…

  80. Anthony Dlugos

    Chase Oliver did a good job speaking for Monds.

    After Gray gets bounced, I think he’s gonna be my second pick.

  81. paulie Post author

    Please have them confirm that NOTA is on the ballot.

    NOTA is always automatically on the ballot, but did not get 30 tokens to get nomination speeches.

  82. paulie Post author

    Sarwark’s dreams of Prez/VP fame and fortune dashed… for now

    Not yet. Given how things have gone he will probably rule it in order to nominate him for VP and will accept. Remains to be seen if delegates will go for that.

  83. Bondurant

    NOTA is always confirmed on LP ballots. Delegates already know this. Sarwark has already mentioned it this morning.

  84. paulie Post author

    Elijah Jon Gizzarelli
    8 mins

    I’m high-key really angry at everybody that voted down my notion to give the candidates with 9 or more tokens to speak for 3 minutes.

    THESE PEOPLE WORKED THEIR ASSES OFF.

    They spent money out of their pocket to travel the country and contribute to our Party and make our conventions worth attending.

    They put their blood, sweat and tears into this process and you won’t give them 3 minutes?… You don’t deserve these candidates.

  85. paulie Post author

    Someone I did not catch for Kokesh. Then GI Mary Jane (didn’t catch her real name) for Kokesh.

  86. Root's Teeth Are Awesome

    Anthony Dlugos: I’m somewhat surprised Shape didn’t wait to see who won the Prez nomination.

    I assume Sharpe hopes that his statement will influence people to vote for Gray.

  87. Nik

    Sorry, a bit out of the loop on this: Why did Jorgensen essentially vanish from LP electoral politics for 24 years and then decide to run for president? Where was she in ‘00, ‘04, ‘08, etc?

  88. Anthony Dlugos

    “I assume Sharpe hopes that his statement will influence people to vote for Gray.”

    ok, fair point.

  89. paulie Post author

    Kokesh switches VP endorsement from McAfee to Sharpe. I guess he did not receive the memo that Sharpe would only run with Gray.

  90. Nik

    Why is McAfee — arguably the highest-profile person in the race — running for VP, not president?

  91. paulie Post author

    Brent DeRidder
    1 min
    I want a candidate with name recognition. I want a candidate with principle. I want a candidate with solid messaging. I want a candidate with massive appeal to younger voters. I want a candidate with experience in activism. I want a candidate that uses proven marketing techniques. I want a candidate that will first draw them in and then teach them. I want a candidate with that’s willing to put it on the line to grow our party and spread our message. I want Vermin Supreme.
    #InOnTheJoke
    http://www.inonthejoke.net

  92. paulie Post author

    Why is McAfee — arguably the highest-profile person in the race — running for VP, not president?

    He ran for both.

  93. paulie Post author

    Ethan Owens: “Kokesh sitting and watching his own self nominate himself is the cringieat thing I have ever seen”

  94. Anthony Dlugos

    yes. it was.

    that guy might flame out spectacularly at some point.

  95. paulie Post author

    Libertarian Party Millennial Caucus
    32 mins

    POTUS/VP endorsements:
    POTUS: Vermin Supreme for President
    VP: Tie between Spike Cohen and Ken Armstrong (membership opted to halt balloting after 10 rounds after it was revealed further rounds would not change)

  96. paulie Post author

    Posted in a private group so I won’t say where or by whom:

    Good morning everyone. Let’s make today historic.

    VERMIN SUPREME
    NOT A RA(P/C)IST!

  97. paulie Post author

    Posted in a private group so I won’t say where or by whom:

    Kokesh may or may not be jerking it while watching himself talk right now.

  98. Anthony Dlugos

    “Kokesh may or may not be jerking it while watching himself talk right now.”

    lol

  99. paulie Post author

    @BAN: Michigan Voter on May 23, 2020 at 11:17 am said:

    Cynthia McKinney is a Libertarian and Jesse Ventura is a Green. What a world!

  100. paulie Post author

    OK, AK47…that seals it…

    I think Kokesh will get more than 47 votes. Or did you mean something else?

  101. paulie Post author

    At ease for 15 min. Sarwark said take Laura Valle of speakers list. Was she speaking for Jorgensen, or what?

  102. paulie Post author

    Elinor Swanson
    7 mins

    As a counterpoint to the last post – I would very happily support Monds. Monds is just so inspiring, and I know he would reach people we usually wouldn’t, inspiring them to reconsider their thoughts about economic liberty. Imagining people trying to criticize him for his commitment and dedication to his family, homeschooling his children so well that his 19yo is a senior in college – I know he would come out on top! He is a really good person, very humble, and someone I would be very proud to support.

  103. Anthony Dlugos

    I am warming to him as a candidate, no doubt about it.

    as some part of the ticket.

  104. paulie Post author

    Brierly said that Jo’s favorite weapon is an AK 47

    Solid choice. The PK, from the same manufacturer, is also excellent.

  105. paulie Post author

    Brian Ellison:

    This election cycle is going to be conducted almost entirely online. Can we nominate a team who is not technologically illiterate?

  106. paulie Post author

    Thomas Hill for Hornberger; says Mary Ruwart endorses him. At least I think that’s him, looks different from the last time I saw him.

  107. robert capozzi

    Never shot. Owned a rifle for a while, but could not see the point.

  108. paulie Post author

    Never shot. Owned a rifle for a while, but could not see the point.

    You have to shoot it to see the point, LOL.

  109. Anthony Dlugos

    “Hornberger endorses Cohen for VP”

    yea, what is up with that?

    doesn’t make much sense. Isn’t Spike with Vermin.

    Doesn’t make any sort of balancing sense either.

  110. paulie Post author

    “Hornberger endorses Cohen for VP”

    yea, what is up with that.

    Better than Sharpe or Armstrong from the radical libertarian perspective, or whatever you want to call it.

  111. Nik

    I wonder if someone like Gray could get some McMullin-esque voters from the GOP who might be put off by some of the others…

  112. Anthony Dlugos

    maybe…but again…isn’t Spike with Vermin?

    Vermin hasn’t even been eliminated yet!

  113. NewFederalist

    “Hornberger endorses Cohen for VP”

    yea, what is up with that.

    My guess is that he knows if he doesn’t win on the first or second ballot he’s toast. This might be his way to pick up Vermin Supreme delegates.

  114. paulie Post author

    Where does the nickname “Bumper” come from?

    Good question. I actually don’t know. Anyone here that does? Carol Moore or Capozzi maybe?

  115. Anthony Dlugos

    “My guess is that he knows if he doesn’t win on the first or second ballot he’s toast. This might be his way to pick up Vermin Supreme delegates.”

    ok, I can buy that.

  116. paulie Post author

    “Hornberger endorses Cohen for VP”

    yea, what is up with that.

    My guess is that he knows if he doesn’t win on the first or second ballot he’s toast. This might be his way to pick up Vermin Supreme delegates.

    At least we know, but then at least I think we know, that Hornberger won’t run for VP, but then I didn’t think he would,

    Next up Gray for himself.

  117. robert capozzi

    Hornberger: I got it when I was a baby, it stuck, and all the theories are bad.

  118. paulie Post author

    Joe Ryne Swafford
    7 mins

    I am the Arkansas Libertarian At-Large and I would like to endorse John Monds for our 2020 presidential candidate.

    No candidate in the race has the record of bringing in outside voters and creating lasting momentum like John Monds. He is the best logistical chance we have at breaking through the sewage that is the duopoly. He is a principled libertarian and has proven so time and time again. If you want to play the game for our success, both now and in the future, Monds is the vote. If you want to play to our own vanity and gimmicks there is plenty of that to pick from as well. No disrespect to any candidate in the field, they are all amazing people, but I would urge you as my fellow delegates to vote for John Monds and officially put this revolution in the fast lane.

    Thank you and in Liberty,
    Joe Swafford

  119. paulie Post author

    Hornberger: I got it when I was a baby, it stuck, and all the theories are bad.

    Maybe he kept bumping into things and people and whatnot.

  120. Anthony Dlugos

    as I have mentioned here before, I think Governor Johnson’s advantage over, say, Gray or Chafee is that he came to politics from the private sector.

    I don’t have data to back this up, but I think that first-hand knowledge of government red tape and such came through in his messaging, and helped his case with the more dogmatic elements of the party.

  121. NewFederalist

    I would prefer Judge Napolitano to Judge Gray but hey… that’s just me.

  122. paulie Post author

    Avens O’Brien
    2 mins

    Re: Zoom

    I’m calling him #Hornboomer now

    P: That’s on FB, not in her speech.

  123. Anthony Dlugos

    “I would prefer Judge Napolitano to Judge Gray but hey… that’s just me.”

    no way. virulently anti-choice. Worse than Amash.

  124. NewFederalist

    I’m kinda Pro-Death myself but hey… that’s just me

    “I would prefer Judge Napolitano to Judge Gray but hey… that’s just me.”

    no way. virulently anti-choice. Worse than Amash.

  125. paulie Post author

    Reading from off to the side is a bad look.

    I’m not watching the video, so I’m missing a lot of your references to video cues. Got the liveblog on my computer screen, other stuff in other tabs, listening to the convention on my phone.

  126. Anthony Dlugos

    Spike actually is pretty good. He’s better than his own top of ticket.

  127. paulie Post author

    Spike actually is pretty good. He’s better than his own top of ticket.

    I think he is a better speaker, and may well make an excellent top of the ticket candidate in the future. But Vermin has built a huge platform through his years of activism and satire, and Spike can’t match that in 3-4-5 months.

  128. Anthony Dlugos

    well, as you know I don’t think either of them are even remotely qualified.

    but Spike is more articulate and on point.

    And I’m not worried about the platform built so far. That’s small potatoes compared to post nomination activity.

  129. paulie Post author

    And I’m not worried about the platform built so far. That’s small potatoes compared to post nomination activity.

    What you start with makes a big difference. Then ramp up from there.

  130. Anthony Dlugos

    Jo really did have the most wide-ranging spread of speakers, philosophically/factionally speaking.

  131. paulie Post author

    Jo really did have the most wide-ranging spread of speakers, philosophically/factionally speaking.

    True. Gray’s was like a corporate infomercial.

  132. paulie Post author

    Ethan Owens:

    I’m 100% endorsing Vermin and his team. His team speaking were the only people that made me give two shits about what they had to say. And they were passionate!

  133. Anthony Dlugos

    What you start with makes a big difference. Then ramp up from there.

    Depends. None of our candidates are starting from an exceptionally high point.

    And whatever advantage Supreme has there has to be balanced with being the posted child for a Wasted Vote. (In a bad way, IMHO).

  134. robert capozzi

    Vermin is 58. Thought he’d be older. All 6 are OK boomers except Kokesh.

  135. paulie Post author

    Vermin Supreme

    Let’s share this far and wide.

    The text of Mr. Supreme’s aceptence of his nomination as a final round candidate or whatever….

    “Natural 20!

    Fellow delegates, and members of the Libertarian party, and america,

    I am humbled to be nominated today for the highest honor the LP can bestoe- the presidential ticket.

    While we are a young party, we are a mighty one, and I believe the addition of my own personal media savvy,

    and outsized social media influence, together, can create something truly incredible.

    There are many thousands if not millions of disenfranchised left-wing voters this year, disgusted by the corruption of the DNC and ready to vote against the system.

    A Vermin Supreme campaign can win those votes over for us, and in many cases already has.

    Those voters aren’t authoritarians because they have a love for government,

    they are ANTI-authoritarians because they see the same failures of government that we do.

    They see the problems of endless wars, a militarized police system, corporate bailouts, oil subsidies, and the only political figure who has been able to connect with them and present a response was Bernie Sanders.

    We see those same issues, and propose solutions based on freedom, based on voluntarism, and based on love and mutual aid,

    and those voters will come around not just at the ballot box in November, but will support and grow the movement for liberty for a generation to come.

    During this campaign alone, I have brought into the party people who were not only supporting other parties presidential campaigns, I have brought into the party Staff from the other parties, who bring to us a wealth of experience in the strategy and successful growth of campaigns.

    I have put together a team of amazing people, principled libertarians and some not libertarians yet, across this great country, and we have done incredible things. We will continue to do great things, and to build the campaign as your nominee.

    Our campaign ad: you are the power, has been seen over a hundred thousand times just in the last week- without any mainstream coverage or paid airings on television.

    In that same, short time before the convention, we have received over 200 new donations, mostly from people outside of the party.

    I fully respect the practice of delegates choosing the VP candidate. If you watched the vp debates that took place, I trust that you like I will agree that Spike Cohen is the correct choice for Vice President.

    The chemistry, the balance, and the shared visions of our messaging work very well together, and I feel that he is my most workable partner in spreading the message of Liberty to the rest of the country.

    While I can speak passionately on many topics, those that I am weaker on are those where my partner shines, and our voice is amplified and strengthened as a ticket this way.

    Remember an endorsement for Spike Cohen IS an endorsement for Vermin Supreme.

    Our party has fantastic candidates running for our nomination this year, and I would like to publicly thank them, and invite them to join my team if I am blessed to receive your votes.

    I would enjoy nothing more than a Supreme/Cohen campaign with Jacob Hornberger as an economic advisor, with John Monds as an outreach coordinator, with Dan Behrman and Jo Jorgenson as media surrogates, and with every single one of our candidates united behind the nominee.

    We do best as a movement when we stand united, and I want to see us leave this first sitting a unified party, with our only enemy being the authoritarian state.

    The question of balance between principles and pragmatism is hotly debated within the party,

    but I am here to say that they are not exclusive!

    Can we have a candidate who is unwavering in their support of the Libertarian party platform and principles? YES.

    Can we have a candidate who speaks to voters outside of the party in a way that inspires them to learn more, to come around, and to eventually vote for and support us? YES.

    Can we have a candidate who can do BOTH? I say yes, and I believe that I am that candidate.

    Together we can challenge the omnipotent state.

    Together we can defend the rights of the individual.

    Together we can spread the word of liberty, and

    Together we CAN see a world set free in our lifetimes.

    thank you.”

  136. paulie Post author

    Angela McArdle
    Just now

    Jacob Hornberger and his nominators were not technologically illiterate – we weren’t given login access to the panelist portion of Zoom until after Nick noted we were missing. Maybe it was just a major but accidental error.

  137. paulie Post author

    About Kokesh too.

    I think Adam has some family money. He also makes a decent living off paid social media, or has at times.

    TBH I don’t know if any of Vermin’s gigs are paid. But, I don’t think his lifestyle is very expensive, either. I know he has a lot of friends and supporters, so maybe they help him out. If he has a job I don’t know about, IDK. Savings? Inheritance? Your guess is as good as mine.

  138. Anthony Dlugos

    “But, I don’t think his lifestyle is very expensive, either.”

    that strikes me as quite likely the case.

  139. paulie Post author

    Also, I am guessing a chunk of Adam’s lifestyle comes under campaign expenses. His reports show most of the donations are coming from himself, but maybe he gets some of that from people who would rather not have those donations registered with the government. Vermin may also be expensing donation money but I have no idea and I am not accusing anyone of anything or providing any insider knowledge, which I don’t have – these are all guesses.

    I think Adam was early into crypto and maybe some of his past media gigs were paid even if his current ones are not.

  140. paulie Post author

    Depends. None of our candidates are starting from an exceptionally high point.

    Vermin has a lot he can leverage there, The recent videos are just tip of the iceberg.

  141. Anthony Dlugos

    as I said, he’s the poster child for Wasted Vote. He’ll shed support…actual polling, voter support…faster than Ronald McDonald at a PETA convention.

  142. paulie Post author

    as I said, he’s the poster child for Wasted Vote.

    To the average person that’s any of our candidates. Vermin would at least be noticed and he’s shown he is good at winning hearts and minds. If he keeps at it and keeps building, could be really awesome in 4 years.

    He’ll shed support…actual polling, voter support…faster than Ronald McDonald at a PETA convention.

    I would predict the opposite. Unfortunately I don’t think we’ll get to find out, at least this time.

  143. paulie Post author

    Vermin is 58. Thought he’d be older. All 6 are OK boomers except Kokesh.

    I think the reference to boomer was more metaphorical than literally chronological. At 75, Judge Gray is just very slightly older than a Boomer (by one year). Monds may be a little younger than a boomer, not sure.

  144. paulie Post author

    en.wikipedia.org › wiki › John_Monds
    John Monds (born June 17, 1965)

    IIRC Boomer usually defined as ending around b. 1961 by most definitions.

  145. Michigan Voter

    Why the hell is voting taking so long? They are using the internet. It should take less than a minute. I don’t get why they are doing it by state.

  146. paulie Post author

    I don’t get why they are doing it by state.

    Always by state, in person also. States choose their own balloting methods, then those are relayed to the secretary and tallied.

  147. robert capozzi

    I stand corrected. I thought it was ’44-’64, though. Monds is GenX, then.

  148. paulie Post author

    I stand corrected. I thought it was ’44-’64, though. Monds is GenX, then.

    End of boomer generation is not always defined the same. But the start is IIRC universally considered to be 1946 as that was the first babies born after the troops got home from the war.

    However, as I said earlier I think the internet boomer meme was what was being referenced more so than literal chronological age.

  149. Bondurant

    @ Michigan Voter

    You don’t understand how this works. Just take a break and check for the results later today. If you’re expecting results already you’re in for a long ride. Don’t hold your breath.

  150. paulie Post author

    You down with Supreme?

    He got my first ballot vote. We have hung out a number of times. I wouldn’t say we are close personal friends if that’s what you are asking.

  151. Michigan Voter

    It just seems like a bad look when the party is trying to eliminate the bureaucracy of government, but has such an inefficient bureaucracy to count votes when it could be done in less than a minute.

  152. paulie Post author

    It just seems like a bad look when the party is trying to eliminate the bureaucracy of government, but has such an inefficient bureaucracy to count votes when it could be done in less than a minute.

    The convention is technically a convention of delegates representing state parties. So it has to be done by state. The other parties, both bigger (D, R) and smaller (G, C) vote by states also.

  153. paulie Post author

    Explain how this could have been done in less than a minute.

    Electionbuddy, presumably, if we were voting on it like we did on the motions to amend the agenda etc. But that would cut the states out.

  154. Michigan Voter

    It could be done in less than a minute by having everyone vote the same way they do for motions. It doesn’t have to be done by state. Yes, I know the rules say that, but they can amend their own rules.

  155. paulie Post author

    Candidate receiving the lowest vote as well as any with less than 5% is eliminated with each succeeding ballot.

  156. paulie Post author

    Results will be announced by state alphabetically starting from Texas and ending with Tennessee.

  157. robert capozzi

    Disregard Faas’s condition. The Boot stays. He needs it to Boot-pill people.

  158. Bondurant

    Cutting it close for my schedule. I was hoping to witness Round 1 before my date with sauerbraten, red cabbage, spatzle and lots of beer.

  159. NewFederalist

    As an alternate with no vote I cast my vote for Ed Clark! I really want to do that because in 1979 at the convention in LA I voted for Bill Hunscher. Gotta vote for Clark before it’s too late!

  160. NewFederalist

    “Cutting it close for my schedule. I was hoping to witness Round 1 before my date with sauerbraten, red cabbage, spatzle and lots of beer.”-Bondurant

    Ah… I see you are participating in FartFest 2020! Good for you!

  161. Michigan Voter

    What the hell is going on with these states? How long does it take to get the votes from the delegates? Are the delegates out grilling or washing their car? SMH.

  162. robert capozzi

    I can’t believe I’m following this, actually. Roadside wrecks are hard to look away from, I guess.

  163. paulie Post author

    Disregard Faas’s condition. The Boot stays. He needs it to Boot-pill people.

    We need a mix of boot and bootless. Faas is still going to run as an independent regardless, so her endorsement of Vermin is only for the LP nomination, like Behrman’s.

  164. paulie Post author

    As an alternate with no vote I cast my vote for Ed Clark! I really want to do that because in 1979 at the convention in LA I voted for Bill Hunscher. Gotta vote for Clark before it’s too late!

    Perhaps you’ll be a delegate in 2024 or 2028.

  165. paulie Post author

    What the hell is going on with these states? How long does it take to get the votes from the delegates? Are the delegates out grilling or washing their car? SMH.

    It takes at least as long in person. The secretary estimates about 15 more minutes before they start announcing state by state. The chair said he expects susbsequent rounds would be faster.

  166. paulie Post author

    “Jorgensen/Marrou: Hey, Remember the ‘90s?”

    Pretty sure VH1 would at least consider a reality show.

  167. paulie Post author

    Typically during these vote counting times at in person conventions there are speakers or entertainments of some sort, as well as the points of inquiry and whatnot like now.

  168. ATBAFT

    They better adjourn soon or the service folks won’t have time to set up for the banquet.
    Oops, wrong year. This year’s banquet seems to be buffet style. At least you get to choose some beer or wine of your choice instead of what the cash bartender is pouring.

  169. Anthony Dlugos

    good point, re: entertainment.

    while I like the in-person convention, I’m not a fan of travel. so its 6 of one, half dozen of the other for me.

    Its gonna be nice to turn off the computer and go back to my life immediately.

  170. paulie Post author

    From a delegate that just switched to Supreme who is married to a Hornberger whip and wanted to remain anonymous.

    “I’m team supreme now… While Jacob is inspiring too, I think his fate will be the same as all “serious” candidates we’ve had before. The LP is unlikely to win regardless, but Vermin gives us a chance to get the visibility we need. SO many people would be libertarians of they knew what we were about. Vermin gets their attention and then after they stop laughing, they realize he has a point. And suddenly… There’s a possibility in their minds that’s never been there before. “Maybe there really is a party that I could be proud to call “home”… Maybe there really is an option of something other than Red Shit and Blue Shit… Something to UNIFY around, not just one more thing to divide us.”

  171. NewFederalist

    Do “The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet” come on after this? I could really use some good canned laughter.

  172. Michigan Voter

    So the reason for this long process is so these state chairs can ramble on and have their “moment of the spotlight”.

  173. Bondurant

    @ Michigan Voter

    Don’t expect us to altar our convention traditions to accommodate your schedule. As I mentioned earlier, check back later for the results.

  174. Nik

    “So the reason for this long process is so these state chairs can ramble on and have their ‘moment of the spotlight.’”

    Well, yeah, it’s a party convention.

  175. Anthony Dlugos

    sorry, I’ve been paying more attention to the predictit market.

    by the time I tally we’ll probably have a total from the Chair.

  176. Anthony Dlugos

    Monds on the VP market now…7 cents.

    That is a serious value bet right now.

  177. Nik

    Jorgensen’s running mate should start prepping his 2044 presidential campaign…

  178. Anthony Dlugos

    JJ up to 81 cents on PredictIt.

    Might not take that many ballots at all.

  179. paulie Post author

    Joe Bishop-Henchman
    Admin · 1 min

    President first ballot:

    Jorgensen 248

    Hornberger 236

    Supreme 171

    Monds 147

    Gray 98

    Kokesh 77

    NOTA 8

    Write-Ins 31 (Amash 17, Sarwark 5, Vohra 3, Ardeleanu 2, Snowden 2, Stossel 1, Chafee 1, Boogie 1)

  180. paulie Post author

    Mrs. Kokesh is an erotic entertainer. Perhaps she is the breadwinner. There is a Mrs. Supreme as well, but I know nothing of her beyond that.

  181. Anthony Dlugos

    I imagine Vermin is a decent guy and probably quite frugal with his money, like you said.

  182. paulie Post author

    I imagine Vermin is a decent guy and probably quite frugal with his money, like you said.

    Definitely my impression of him in person.

  183. Anthony Dlugos

    we didn’t do roll call with the 2nd round in 2016, did we?

    I didn’t think so.

  184. paulie Post author

    we didn’t do roll call with the 2nd round in 2016, did we?

    I didn’t think so.

    I think it passes customarily but still has to be a motion.

  185. paulie Post author

    Ethan Owens: “Anyone who changes their current supporting vote from their current candidate to Vermin Supreme will get a very fancy Beef Jerky donation from me personally. Seriously it’s great fucking jerky”

  186. Anthony Dlugos

    JJ at 87 cents on the Prez market. That’s a high.

    Armstrong and Sharpe in a dead heat at 36 cents on the VP market

  187. Jill Pyeatt

    I’m thinking we might end up with a Jorgenson/Monds ticket.

    Having said that, I continue to be impressed with Vermin. I met him at the CA convention, and liked him as a human. He has put on a good campaign. I haven’t voted for him yet, but I might in a subsequent vote. I like Hornberger, but I was really turned off by his combative behavior at the debate the other night. A lot of the people I admire are supporting Hornberger, though.

    It’s all so confusing!

  188. Anthony Dlugos

    Monds shooting up the PredictIt Market. Up from 7 cents to 16 now.

  189. paulie Post author

    Erin Adams
    5 mins

    several motions are going to be made after balloting and if they pass they will in effect violate the compromise that has been so strongly supported by the delegates up to this point.

    #keepthecompromise

  190. Losty

    NEWS UPDATE!

    It’s a slow news day….. So 1K Media read the first ballot results…

  191. Anthony Dlugos

    JJ at 94 cents

    VP market:

    Armstrong 38 cents
    Sharpe 38 cents
    Monds 16 cents
    Spike 13 cents

  192. paulie Post author

    Jorgensen 339 Hornberger 257 Supreme 184 Monds 169 Gray 64 NOTA 6 Kokesh 6 Amash 1 Sarwark 1 Darryl Perry 1

  193. Anthony Dlugos

    does JJ really want this to wait until tomorrow?

    I would think not.

  194. paulie Post author

    Joe Bishop-Henchman
    Admin · 3 mins

    President second ballot:

    Jorgensen 339 (33.0%)

    Hornberger 257 (25.0%)

    Supreme 184 (17.9%)

    Monds 169 (16.4%)

    Gray 64 (6.2%)

    NOTA 6 (0.6%)

    Write-Ins 9 (Kokesh 6, Amash 1, Sarwark 1, Perry 1)

  195. Anthony Dlugos

    I would raise holy hell if I was JJ. no way I let this go to tomorrow

  196. paulie Post author

    Elijah Jon Gizzarelli
    Just now

    I meant to say after last ballot, but waited too long.

    With Adam out of the race, I believe the best choice is Jo Jorgensen.

    Jo has the best mix of messaging tact and principled positions currently available.

    She’s done a fantastic job and I’ve had the pleasure of meeting her in person and she is a beautiful person, inside and out.

    I hope you will join me in supporting Dr. Jo Jorgensen in seeking the Libertarian Party’s 2020 Presidential nomination.

  197. Carol Moore

    It’s a majority vote, right? If Monds concedes to Jorgensen and Gray votes go to her, plus a few odds and end, that hopefully will do it. On the other hand, a fourth ballot WILL mean less time for the Convention Cancellers to do their dirty work.

  198. Anthony Dlugos

    “If Monds concedes to Jorgensen and Gray votes go to her, plus a few odds and end, that hopefully will do it.”

    That’s exactly what I’d be pushing for if I were JJ.

  199. paulie Post author

    Chris Spangle
    42 mins

    Have voters heard of Jo Jorgensen? No

    Will they be impressed when they do hear about her? Also no.

    Will she inspire anyone to promote her campaign or to get involved in the Libertarian Party? That’s a no as well.

    Will Libertarians attend her events when she shows up to town and campaign? That’s unlikely.

    Will the media book her so America can learn about her? No. I’m a member of the libertarian media and I have not and do not have interest in talking to her. It’s nothing about who she is or what she believes like some other candidates. It’s that I keep forgetting she’s even in the race.

    But she’s been in the party a long time and they think she’s a nice person. The 1000 delegates of the LP are choosing a candidate for themselves and no one else. None of the other candidates will do much better in these metrics, but she’s the least impressive and memorable.

    I’m sure some will be upset that I made this post and that’s because you’re thinking about your friend and not the voter.

  200. paulie Post author

    If Monds concedes to Jorgensen and Gray votes go to her

    Delegates don’t all vote as a bloc. Some will go here, some will go there, some will switch, etc.

  201. Anthony Dlugos

    “Will the media book her so America can learn about her? No. I’m a member of the libertarian media and I have not and do not have interest in talking to her.”

    the libertarian media outside of Reason Magazine is a nothingburger.

    I got news for this guy: the mainstream media is very unlikely to book ANY of our candidates.

  202. paulie Post author

    I got news for this guy: the mainstream media is very unlikely to book ANY of our candidates.

    They will book all of them to some limited extent. I am thinking Vermin would get booked more. But I think he’s being too pessimistic about Jo. She has some very good people working on her staff who know what they are doing.

  203. Anthony Dlugos

    fair enough: some limited extent.

    and yea, I think he’s being to pessmistic on Jo.

  204. paulie Post author

    10 am central tomorrow has a plurality (near majority) in a multi choice poll for start time tomorrow

  205. Bondurant

    Back from gorging on German cuisine and running a few errands and the primary is still rolling! The Pony Express is galloping!

  206. Losty

    Paulie,

    Help me out with this…

    If they either Wrap up VP Early tomorrow, Why wouldn’t they just redo the agenda for tomorrow to wrap up the rest of the convention business and end the year tomorrow…

  207. Anthony Dlugos

    This is up to the candidates to do the honorable thing and finish this tonight, in deference to the delegates. Make the deal.

  208. paulie Post author

    Noah Oliver Rhys

    The Alabama Delegation would like to remove both Richard Fast and Scotty Bowman from our feeding list in light of their recent realizations and apologies. We are proud of the work the alligators can do toward respectful liberty.

  209. Carol Moore

    Be glad all the trolls haven’t found this page. A lot of agit prop artists and Vermin Supreme spammers.

    Vermin evidently put pro-choice libertarians discussion group out to his list and all sorts of GREEN/progressives tried to join. I didn’t think we wanted to hear their abuse when they noticed we didn’t want to fund abortion or force nuns to pay for it so I denied almost all of them membership.

    But a few solid libertarians DID get the message and they were added to the group.

  210. Bondurant

    Trolls are spamming the stream on YouTube instead. They aren’t sophisticated to seek information elsewhere.

  211. paulie Post author

    Motion to remove bottom 2 rather than bottom 1 vote getters. Requires 2/3.

    Fails, 74% against.

  212. paulie Post author

    Trolls are spamming the stream on YouTube instead. They aren’t sophisticated to seek information elsewhere.

    Ballot access news comments as well.

  213. Anthony Dlugos

    Hornberger cratered to 4 cents over at PredictIt. Below Vermin now (5 cents).

  214. paulie Post author

    Hornberger cratered to 4 cents over at PredictIt. Below Vermin now (5 cents).

    Makes sense. He doesn’t pick up many votes in subsequent rounds, I expect.

  215. Bondurant

    Ah, I feel bad for Mr. Winger if the trolls are feeding in his waters. On the flip side it’s good for web traffic. Ballot Access News is a great site.

  216. paulie Post author

    Hornberger 264 Jorgensen 390 Monds 174 Vermin 188 NOTA 7 Sarwark 1 Kokesh 1 Ebke 1

    Monds drops

  217. paulie Post author

    Joe Bishop-Henchman
    Admin · 1 min

    President third ballot:

    Jorgensen 390 (38.1%)

    Hornberger 264 (25.7%)

    Supreme 188 (18.3%)

    Monds 174 (16.9%)

    NOTA 7

    Write-Ins 3 (Sarwark 1, Kokesh 1, Ebke 1)

  218. robert capozzi

    Looks like AD will be getting his way. I sorta kinda like a woman/man of color ticket. I won’t be voting, though.

  219. paulie Post author

    From Larry Sharpe, Libertarian for VP:

    “Thank you all for your support in the LP VP nomination process. I came in with the Judge and I left with the Judge. I know that some of you are disappointed. But, I will still be here, with the party and movement. I’d like to formally endorse a personal friend, with an amazing resume, to be the LP VP nominee, Ken Armstrong for Vice President 2020. I think Ken and Jo Jorgensen for President, a great candidate, person and a true unifier, will make a great team for us this year. I support them both, I hope you will too.”

  220. paulie Post author

    Looks like AD will be getting his way. I sorta kinda like a woman/man of color ticket

    Maybe. Armstrong or Spike might win, or there may be a curveball.

  221. Anthony Dlugos

    RC,

    not necessarily my first, 2nd or 3rd choice, but we avoided disaster.

  222. Anthony Dlugos

    you know, on 2nd thought…we could have adjourned and taken the clinching vote tomorrow right smack dab in the middle of the Sunday morning news shows.

  223. Nik

    I mean, why adjourn? It’s not like delegates are going out drinking or anything, or even have to get back to their hotel…

  224. paulie Post author

    Greg Peele, Libertarian
    2 mins

    Proud of the campaign John Monds for President ran. Disappointed to see him eliminated so early.

    I will be trading out my bowtie for a boot and support Vermin Supreme for President in the next round.

    My votes are for principled candidates that have a strategy to reach the public through both traditional and nontraditional media and actually ensure our principles are heard.

  225. paulie Post author

    I mean, why adjourn? It’s not like delegates are going out drinking or anything, or even have to get back to their hotel…

    It’s been 12 hours. People are tired. Time for people to consider who they want to vote for after their choice are out. Secretary are tellers are exhausted. Those are a few reasons.

  226. robert capozzi

    AD,

    Any of the choices will be completely ignored, most likely. None are credible.

  227. paulie Post author

    Joe Bishop-Henchman
    Admin · 17 mins

    President third ballot:

    Jorgensen 390 (38.1%)

    Hornberger 264 (25.7%)

    Supreme 188 (18.3%)

    Monds 174 (16.9%)

    NOTA 7

    Write-Ins 3 (Sarwark 1, Kokesh 1, Ebke 1)

    NOTE: There may be a PA discrepancy where Jorgensen has a few more votes and Hornberger a few less than what was reported. Will update if there’s an announcement.

  228. paulie Post author

    Mike Shipley
    1 min

    We will not get another chance at a viral youth oriented campaign in the foreseeable future. I urge my colleagues to go outside your comfort zones and take an entrepreneurial risk by placing your vote with Vermin Supreme.

  229. Losty

    For at least a couple of the delegates….

    It’s Getting Late Early… 😉

    Hockey Uniform Colors? Emails in order to get… email? Really?

    I believe the Beer is always in order 😉

  230. Anthony Dlugos

    RC,

    you know you’re right.

    but there’s ignored…and there is getting attention and then ridiculed.

  231. robert capozzi

    If Hornberger gets the nod, I will need to find another term to describe my politics.

  232. paulie Post author

    Does Kokesh matter?

    JJ + Monds is already 50%.

    It doesn’t work like that. Candidates do not control all of the delegates who voted for them.

  233. paulie Post author

    Lauren Grindstaff Mckinnon
    Just now

    If someone can tell me 3 TRULY media worthy things about Jo, I’ll throw my support behind her.

  234. Anthony Dlugos

    no, not officially, but in practice.

    Monds endorsement of JJ means more than Kokseh’s of Hornberger, no?

    Not least of which is because JJ was ahead and Monds had more delegate support than Kokesh.

  235. paulie Post author

    no, not officially, but in practice.

    Not even close. Delegates scatter all over when their choice drops.

  236. paulie Post author

    Starchild asks an excellent question about toothpaste brands.

    Vermin provides excellent answer. If only we could run Vermin-Starchild, we would actually make some real waves and do some real good.

  237. paulie Post author

    Ken Willey: “Vermin Supreme is the candidate who can garner the media spotlight. We, the down ballot candidates and voters, can build on his campaign. He is the best chance we have.”

  238. paulie Post author

    Vicky Rose
    26 mins

    As crazy as he sometimes appears, I have great faith in Vermin Love Supreme to take the party and the message where it needs to go. That is why I have cast my ballot yet again for Vermin Supreme for President

  239. Anthony Dlugos

    JJ at 99 cents.

    Armstrong at 53 cents in the VP market, Monds at 37.

  240. paulie Post author

    Richard Manzo:

    FWIW, Newmarket NH town councilman and congressional candidate Zachary Dumont is urging LPNH delegates to vote for Vermin Supreme. Elected officials seem to recognize his value at a high rate, which I appreciate greatly.

  241. Nik

    It’s definitely a tough choice: Jorgensen, who will be fine and won’t embarrass anyone but who won’t make any splash at all, or Supreme, who would get a lot of attention but also be an easy target for those who want to marginalize the LP. Not sure how I would vote.

  242. Bondurant

    Those that will marginalize the LP will do so no matter whom is on the ballot. Ye Olde Media and acolytes of the Duopoly will always oppose us. Fuck ’em. Vote Vermin.

    Even on IPR those that bitch about Vermin aren’t even libertarians. Just a bunch of disgruntled Republicans and Democrats that want the LP to cater to their inflated egos.

  243. Anthony Dlugos

    “Those that will marginalize the LP will do so no matter whom is on the ballot. Ye Olde Media and acolytes of the Duopoly will always oppose us.”

    The media doesn’t have it out for us. They ignore us when we nominate the ignorable. You can be sure they’ll follow us if we nominate viable candidates.

    They are not going to start paying attention if we nominate the catastrophically unqualified out of spite.

  244. paulie Post author

    They are not going to start paying attention if we nominate the catastrophically unqualified out of spite.

    Most of the attention, here just like on social media, goes to Vermin. Traditional media also follow virality patterns, more so since social media has taken off.

  245. Carol Moore

    A woman LP prez candidate. It’s about time!!!

    Now get Monds in there and off we go!

  246. paulie Post author

    Ethan Bishop-Henchman
    9 mins

    Thanks to the Libertarian Party, Americans in all 50 states plus DC will have a real choice this November. She is principled, she is practical, and she is persuasive. A vote for Dr. Jo Jorgensen will be a vote for peace and prosperity.

    What a contrast to the two old men put up by the two old parties. Both of those men, like the parties they represent, are unfit to lead our country. I’m so excited that starting tomorrow Joe and I will be getting down to work sharing this amazing woman with our country.

    Congrats Jo!!!

    http://www.joj2020.com/

  247. paulie Post author

    5 ballots?

    my over/under of 5.5 was the bookmaker bullseye.

    4 ballots so half way between your 5.5 and my 2.5

  248. paulie Post author

    Joseph Howe shared a link.
    Conversation Starter · 49 mins

    Vice Presidential race is getting hot on PredictIt! Want to make the VPOTUS a little more interesting with cash on the table?

    Speculation that Monds is getting in pumping his chances, Kokesh announcing throws a wild card in the mix. Will Spike stay in? Will Ken get the “Larry bump”?

  249. Bondurant

    Has the official state-by-state, round-by-round tallies been published anywhere? Very curious to see how the AZ delegates voted each round.

  250. Carol Moore

    Both of those old white guys are SEX PERVERTS. At least Trump stuck to groping adult women. Biden feels up little girls in front of their parents. Search “creepy uncle joe” on Youtube and find collages of video from CSPAN.

  251. paulie Post author

    At least Trump stuck to groping adult women.

    There are plenty of allegations of Trump going after underage girls, ranging from publicly lusting after his own then teen daughter and his backstage hijinks at teen beauty pageants to hanging out with Epstein and probably sneaking off to the island (passengers on private flights aren’t necessarily recorded) to an accusation of forcible rape by a then 13 year old.

  252. paulie Post author

    For those who missed it in conversation yesterday and on the VP debate article:

    *Larry Sharpe dropped out and endorsed Ken Armstrong

    *Adam Kokesh lost the race for the presidential nomination, and is now actively campaigning for VP

    *John Monds lost the race for the presidential nomination, and said he would be interested in helping the nominee in whatever way he can, including as a VP nominee

    *Nick Sarwark has confirmed that he would accept the nomination if nominated

    *From that debate, Ken Armstrong and Spike Cohen are also still in contention for VP

    * Jorgensen has promised to discuss VP preferences in her acceptance speech later this morning

  253. paulie Post author

    Harlos to LNC list:

    Not all of the regions got their paperwork to me in time. I did make
    reminders.

    As I stated before, I do think the chair was mistaken in his ruling on the
    deadline. However, it is my understanding of our bylaws if there is no
    appeal of the ruling of the chair that those regions are not formed.

    Mr. Sarwark and regionals, please advise. I will post in a reply to this
    email what paperwork was submitted. I want to thoroughly go through my
    email box which is pretty jammed packed right now.

  254. paulie Post author

    Friends,

    I would like my other regionals to consider joining me in appealing the
    ruling of the chair in which he stated that regional agreements were
    expected to be turned in end of day yesterday, the 23rd.

    My basis for argument is that while the bylaws do indicate that agreements
    must be turned in by the second day of convention, many of us found that
    out 10 or so days, maybe less, before the agreements were due which, under
    normal circumstances are completed at the regional caucus. Because of this
    pressure and the stressors of getting the e-convention put together, I
    think there was a sufficient time constraint put on us.

    Due to to the emergency circumstances, we agreed to have this meeting for
    the sole purpose of electing our President and Vice president. All other
    business was to be put off to our in person. Regional formation should be
    no different. The idea is that the region forms at the close of convention,
    not the beginning.

    I held off on my appeal to see if there would be an issue. Reading the
    secretary’s email from this morning, we technically may now have several
    states that are orphaned because a signed contract was not turned in on
    time.

    I would like the chair’s ruling overturned that agreements were due last
    night and, if the chair insists that they are due before our in person,
    that he give a date to complete the agreements by a reasonable time in the
    future but before our in person gathering. The unusual circumstances that
    affected the separation of our elections and caused our election to become
    something other than expected should also be considered for regional
    agreements.

    Richard Longstreth
    Region 1 Representative

  255. Anthony Dlugos

    “…ranging from publicly lusting after his own then teen daughter…”

    sounds icky every time I read it.

  256. paulie Post author

    Arvin Vohra
    7 hrs

    The Libertarian Party Mises Caucus just received a well deserved smackdown with Jorgensen’s defeat of Hornberger.

    Hornberger was the better communicator. He had strong fundraising support, decades of experience, and the backing of some of hte biggest names in the libertarian movement. In most ways, he was the stronger candidate. But his association with the generally incoherent Mises Caucus ultimately damaged him.

    The Mises caucus is basically the pretend ancap caucus. Unlike the openly statist Pragmatic Caucus, or the largely voluntarist Radical caucus, the Mises caucus attempts to create a kind of statist-friendly ancap vibe. Since that whole plan is total lunacy, it has regularly backfired.

    I’m proud to be an ancap. But I also recognize that ancaps inherently hold views that are terrifying to statists. That goes with the territory. When you don’t believe in government laws, you’re going to scare some people. If you want to fire all government workers and abolish government schools, it is going to scare the rest of them.

    I can also see the prag argument, that we should embrace a type of statism that is a tiny bit more libertarian thatn the current statism. I don’t agree with that view, but I understand it. If you go in that direction, you lose the ethical coherence of the ancap position, but you can more easily connect with current dialogues in politics.

    But trying to make the ancap position somehow fit into statism is just moronic. To try to make the minarchist position fit into statism is about the same. The Mises Caucus’s goal of being innocuously ancap is just bizarre. You can’t be both socially fearful and boldly voluntarist. Pick one. Pick either one. Those choices are mutually exclusive.

    Be bold or be safe. Be statist or be voluntarist. In life, you sometimes have to make choices.

    In Liberty,

    Arvin

  257. Bondurant

    Thanks for the Google doc, Paulie. Vermin picked up a vote in every round among the AZ delegates. Great to see.

  258. paulie Post author

    holy crap the world is ending I agree with Vohra,

    Less surprising that I agree with him about the faux-Misesians.

  259. paulie Post author

    “…ranging from publicly lusting after his own then teen daughter…”

    sounds icky every time I read it.

    Probably not coincidentally, incest has trended as a theme in porn ever since the Cheeto Benito has been in office.

  260. Anthony Dlugos

    yea, what is up with that paulie?

    I’m…ahem…listening to porn, and they are talking about sex with relatives.

    wtf? Its a big turnoff, man.

  261. paulie Post author

    Poll: shall the ruling of the chair that VP token deadline not be extended be sustained? Practically, due to the limitations of electionbuddy, if it were extended it would be yet another do over – 4th by my count.

  262. Bondurant

    Did the Chair of CA fail to get his delegates votes in time or is this a few delegates that couldn’t complete a task in 12 hours plus an extension?

  263. paulie Post author

    Sharpe 21 Sarwark 20 Hornberger 14 Supreme 7 Istvan 7 Gray 6 McAfee 6 Robb 5 Heise 2 Ron Paul 2 Tulsi Gabbard 2

  264. Anthony Dlugos

    that’s a really sh*tty headline by the conservative paper Washington Times.

    I hope to god we sink Cheeto.

  265. NewFederalist

    “I hope to god we sink Cheeto”- Anthony Dlugos

    Then vote for Biden. If you have that strong a preference why not?

  266. Anthony Dlugos

    “Then vote for Biden. If you have that strong a preference why not?”

    well, I will say that if we nominated an anti-choice candidate, I would have seriously considered Biden.

    OTOH, I really don’t matter, right? I was never voting for Trump.

    What we need is some Trump or Trump leaners to vote Libertarian (or Democrat).

  267. paulie Post author

    Is the WAR Cabal striking back for ’12 with this nonsense?

    The alligators in Florida are getting hungrier.

  268. Anthony Dlugos

    I think this is where Jo needs to start demonstrating LEADERSHIP.

    She is essentially the new head of the party, and vying to be the leader of the country. Time to come out forcefully with the nominee she WANTS to be v.p. so that we can wrap this convention up with professionalism and haste.

  269. Anthony Dlugos

    PredictIt Market: Monds up to an overwhelming favorite at 94 cents. Spike at 15 cents, Armstrong cratered to a penny.

    Maybe the JoMo deal is already done and the market reflects it?

  270. Nik

    “Dems Nominate Genial Hair-Plug Enthusiast to Challenge Twice-Divorced Ex-Game Show Host” — The Washington Moons

  271. paulie Post author

    “Dems Nominate Genial Hair-Plug Enthusiast to Challenge Twice-Divorced Ex-Game Show Host” — The Washington Moons

    * Ex-politician grandfather

  272. paulie Post author

    Adam is back.The others would have been someone from CA and Joseph Howe of Iowa. Skipping video this time, just Adam for himself..

  273. paulie Post author

    Ken Moellman
    Admin · Just now

    Delegates — DAY THREE is underway. Today’s agenda calls for VPOTUS nomination speeches, POTUS acceptance speech, and VPOTUS voting. Delegates should have received an email and a link. If you have not, work through your delegation chair and the executive director xd@lphq.org

  274. Carol Moore

    Watching a bit behind Kokesh’s talk and one almost feel like it’s being sabotaged. Or his tech people really stink?

    innnnnyyyy how… I like Kokesh, but can’t get out of my mind that message “If elected president I’d quit the next day.” Even if it’s NOT his main platform or part of his platform any more, it’s all I can think about when speaks. but he is good on radical decentralization.

  275. paulie Post author

    Watching a bit behind Kokesh’s talk and one almost feel like it’s being sabotaged. Or his tech people really stink?

    Just Adam and a crappy connection out in the boonies.

  276. Bondurant

    The tin foil brigade on YouTube thinks everything that happens is a conspiracy orchestrated by Sarwark.

  277. paulie Post author

    Daniel Hayes is with Sam Goldstein.
    1 min

    Relative to the contract for the LNC Convention being in person for July 8th through July 12th with Business starting on July 9th.:

    The normal contract procedure that is utilized is that the Convention Oversight Committee receives the initial contract from the hotel. The COC will typically go through and enact its suggested revisions, then we will send it to party’s counsel and from there we start sending it back and forth with the hotel/venue to agree on our language. Once that is perfected and our attorney gives his final approval, the contract is sent to the chair to execute.
    This situation is different than normal. Counsel expressed a desire to fully inform the LNC. After his last requests to change the Hotel, the Hotel essentially agreed to those changes and our counsel was not available Friday to go over them again. The COC had agreed to these changes on our call.

    With the current situation in mind I sent the last 2 versions of the contract to the members of the LNC with Oliver and staff looped in to the email.

    Counsel expresses concern over the present Covid-19 situation comes with inherent risk greater than normal.

    I believe that the LNC was fully aware of that when they selected Shingle Creek. The venue has bent over backwards to reduce risk to us. The contract is extremely favorable to the LNC in my opinion.
    The COC is of the opinion the contract is ready to sign.

  278. Bondurant

    DeRidder and Ruff made the best of their technical capabilities. Take note, Adam. This is how it’s done.

  279. Anthony Dlugos

    Spike is relentlessly on point and frankly more articulate than anyone in our field, VP or Prez.

  280. paulie Post author

    Spike is relentlessly on point and frankly more articulate than anyone in our field, VP or Prez.

    Yep!

  281. paulie Post author

    Jorgensen said she would be happy with any of the choices. Says good things about all of them.

  282. Anthony Dlugos

    If I were Spike, I would separate from VS immediately.

    He has a LEGITIMATE future in politics.

  283. Carol Moore

    Sign the damned contract or a lot of people will ask for money back and NOT contribute any more. Sarwark better not sabotage this, whether or not he runs for Chair (or Fuhrer under HIS rule). I’ll want $750 back and just give money locally. (Already got $3300 back before the rush begins.)

  284. Losty

    “ Counsel expresses concern over the present Covid-19 situation comes with inherent risk greater than normal.”

    In other developments Water is Wet and the Sun rises in the East…

    An inherent risk of serious illness and death in large groups.

    Again, why. It just do the party business today? Like other parties are doing Online?

    If it’s good enough to nominate a Ticket….

  285. paulie Post author

    If I had it would have been *9 on the phone. Now I raised it to let them know if anything claims I raised it on the computer again it’s a false flag since I have no sound on the computer. If they do call on me I guess I may as well mention our ongoing coverage here.

  286. Bondurant

    From Richard Winger at Ballot Access News:

    “It is perfectly legal for a party to nominate presidential and vice-presidential candidates who live in the same state. The US Constitution only requires that presidential electors from any particular state can’t vote for someone for both president and vice-president who lives in that state when the electoral college meets. In 2000, both George W. Bush and Dick Cheney were registered voters in Texas. That was no problem. Cheney moved to Wyoming before the electoral college met. The Socialist Workers Party many times ran presidential and vice-presidential candidates who both lived in New York state, but that was never a problem. They were challenged once, in 1964, but they beat the challenge. If we carried South Carolina in the 2020 election, I’m sure Jo Jorgensen or Spike Cohen would be delighted to move to some other state after the November 3 election but before the electoral college votes in mid-December.”

    http://ballot-access.org/2020/05/23/libertarian-party-third-round-of-presidential-voting/#comments

    Some have expressed concern about Jo and Spike both being in SC.

  287. paulie Post author

    Write ins 2 each for Sarwark, McAfee; 1 each Rhett Boogie, Laura Ebke, missed the rest as the screen switched.

  288. Krzysztof Lesiak

    First round for LP VP:

    Spike Cohen 416 votes 40.63%
    John Monds 322 votes 31.45%
    Ken Armstrong 180 votes 17.58%
    Adam Kokesh 87 votes 8.50% (eliminated from next round)
    NOTA 7 votes 0.68%
    Nicholas Sarwark (write-in) 2 votes 0.20%
    John McAfee (write-in) 2 votes 0.20%
    Laura Ebke (write-in) 1 vote 0.10%
    Rhett Boogie (write-in) 1 vote 0.10%
    Michael Kalagias (write-in) 1 vote 0.10%
    Vermin Supreme (write-in) 1 vote 0.10%
    Edward Snowden (write-in) 1 vote 0.10%
    Sorriene Ardeleanu (write-in) 1 vote 0.10%
    Julian Assange (write-in) 1 vote 0.10%
    Justin Amash (write-in) 1 vote 0.10%

  289. Carol Moore

    It’s gonna be close to 50% for Cohen, but maybe not there. Or people will abandon Armstrong. I just don’t find Cohen very compelling as a candidate though I’m sure he’s a sharp administrator and media person.

  290. Anthony Dlugos

    very tight.

    disappointed in Dr. Jorgensen not being more forceful about who she wanted as v.p.

  291. NewFederalist

    She could have asked Mary Ruwart to run with her. That would have been interesting!

  292. paulie Post author

    She could have asked Mary Ruwart to run with her. That would have been interesting!

    True…but I think Mary Ruwart is still hurting from the 2008 smears and not too eager for more of the same.

  293. paulie Post author

    she could have asked SOMEONE.

    have an opinion, for chrissake.

    She did say who she’s voting for. But especially given that she won with 51% on the 4th ballot, she wouldn’t necessarily get her top choice. I think it was smart of her to be respectful and positive to all the VP candidates, so that there’s not bad blood off the bat if the convention’s preference is not hers. Also, she may genuinely believe that the other choices would be pretty good too.

  294. paulie Post author

    Lpedia crashed because everyone tried to get on it at once when CAH announced the link. She said try tomorrow.

  295. Anthony Dlugos

    ok, I’ll respond by saying that, as of her nomination last night…if by one vote…she is now the nominee, effectively the leader of the party, and vying to be leader of the country. No decision is going to get easier from here on out. In fact, they get harder.

    Hard to believe a leader of any decisiveness would have no opinion on the matter. She should have come out last night and basically said, “you voted for me, here’s who I want.” End of story.

  296. paulie Post author

    It may have backfired. There’s a time for that sort of tactic. Johnson really wanted Weld, and Weld wouldn’t have gotten it without his heavy help. I think she handled this one correctly.

  297. NewFederalist

    It would have been nice to have had an all female ticket. This year is almost certainly NOT the year to expect a breakout but that would have been an attention getter. There are certainly plenty of qualified women to choose from.

  298. paulie Post author

    Round 2: Cohen 474 Monds 432 Armstrong 96

    Monds dropped

    I did not get NOTA and write-ins before screen changed.

  299. paulie Post author

    Motion to suspend the rules to allow 2 minutes each for concessions from Kokesh and Armstrong

  300. paulie Post author

    Shane Sweeny
    6 mins
    Ladies and gentlemen, if you are a delegate, please vote Spike Cohen for VP. His ability to reach young voters is EXACTLY what the Jorgenson campaign needs. He can inspire hope in young voters jaded by a slew of older candidates who don’t speak their language. #Spike4VPOTUS

  301. paulie Post author

    Libertarian Pragmatist Caucus
    19 mins

    As our endorsed candidate Ken Armstrong has been eliminated from the Libertarian Party’s Vice Presidential ballot, our Board of Directors encourages our members to join Jo Jorgensen in casting their ballots for John Monds on the next round of voting as the principled and practical choice for the Libertarian Party’s White House ticket.

  302. Steve m

    Carol,

    I was thinking that about Monds and his receiving over 100k votes in a 3 way race for Georgia governor. Significantly better the any other libertarian for that office. Not to mention the over 1 million votes when he ran in a 2 way race for Georgia Public Service commissioner.

  303. Anthony Dlugos

    interesting that Armstrong endorsed Spike, but that the Prag Caucus, which originally endorsed Armstrong, just endorsed Monds.

  304. Bondurant

    There’s a lot of whiny Republicans in the YouTube chat. Makes the balloting delays pass.

    I was certain Armstrong would urge votes for Monds.

  305. paulie Post author

    There’s a lot of whiny Republicans in the YouTube chat.

    Not surprising.

    I was certain Armstrong would urge votes for Monds.

    Same.

  306. Losty

    So if in the middle of an international pandemic, if the second sitting does not happen it would be by LNC Resignation and replacement, and not delegates?

    Or, just amend agenda and do it today/tomorrow. Problem solved.

    Interesting idea? Since we are assuming the delegates have nominated and the will of the delegates chose their nominees, and Caryn will sign the nomination paperwork.

    After that, it’s party business no?

  307. paulie Post author

    So if in the middle of an international pandemic, if the second sitting does not happen it would be by LNC Resignation and replacement, and not delegates?

    Yes.

    Or, just amend agenda and do it today/tomorrow. Problem solved.

    Already went over this yesterday in this same thread. For one thing given the number of things to vote on it would take at least a week. maybe more. For another some states are threatening to pull ballot access if that happens.

  308. Anthony Dlugos

    well, I was for Monds, but Spike won this with his performance this last week, no doubt about it.

    Monds would have won it otherwise.

  309. paulie Post author

    Agreed other than that I was and am for Spike.

    I’ve been voting at every presidential convention since 2000 and this is the first time I have been on the winning side for VP.

  310. Carol Moore

    Well, everyone has to grin and bear everything…ha ha ha

    He just better not let any big male ego step all over her.

  311. paulie Post author

    Spike, Jorgensen acceptance speeches. Up next: wrangling over the second sitting of the convention or lack thereof.

  312. Bondurant

    Bitter sweet result. Monds is a solid candidate/asset for the LP but Spike’s win resulted in a GOP furor on the YouTube chat. Those salty fucks. “I’m not voting LP now”. You never were, assholes. Fuck off.

    We could have a great ’24 cycle if Amash, Spike and Monds are all involved.

  313. Losty

    Ok, second part..: though there still is a national emergency declared in all 50 states by Orange..

    Although I would question that, and there’s a great court case there… here’s a thought.

    Are there any LP state parties that remind you of Oregon? No?

    Then get a bare quorum Of the state committee in any of those and have them vote in person with distancing etc. for the ticket. Problem solved. The state party controls the ballot line, and if the ticket is the same no affiliation questions…

    Then get a

  314. Anthony Dlugos

    It was also nice that Spike turned over most of his time to Jo. Thats a very good sign.

  315. paulie Post author

    Nick walks off and hands the gavel to Alex. Not yet clear whether he is resigning altogether or just as convention chair. Nick clarifies that it’s just handing off the gavel at this time.

  316. paulie Post author

    Motion to adjourn to Orlando July 9 and have LNC terms expire on Aug 31 if it doesn’t happen.

  317. Bondurant

    GOP tourists think Vermin Supreme is a communist agitator, his website is stupid, blah, blah…just a bunch of baseless garbage that ruffled feathers. They cannot stand the boot and translate their irrational feelings to Spike.

  318. paulie Post author

    Joe Bishop-Henchman, LNC Member (At-Large) & Candidate for LNC Chair
    Admin · May 22 at 4:15 PM

    There may be a motion tonight to postpone the presidential and vice presidential nomination to July. I will be voting against it. If we postpone everything until July, we will lose ballot access in several states. It will be claimed that postponing to July saves ballot access because “25 states” supposedly require us to nominate at an in-person convention; all our attorneys and ballot access experts say this is not true. But the multiple ballot access deadlines between now and July are very real.

    There may be a motion tonight to conduct all of our regular business online, including LNC elections, this weekend. I will be voting against it. I know the compromise to hold the presidential nomination online now and save other business for a future July meeting is not a popular one but it’s what gets our ticket nominated so we can move forward together. I also don’t think we have the time or the logistics ready to do more than that this weekend anyways.

    I do think it is essential that a second sitting of the convention this year permit remote participation for delegates who choose not to be there.

    It’s up to you now, but that’s how I’ll be voting.

  319. George Phillies

    “So if in the middle of an international pandemic, if the second sitting does not happen it would be by LNC Resignation and replacement, and not delegates? ”

    California has already elected its reps for the next cycle. States are perfectly able to form groups and agree to a method of choosing regional rep and alternate, e.g., agreement of the state chairs. Once there are any regional reps, the LNC can fill in blanks other than regional reps.

  320. paulie Post author

    California has already elected its reps for the next cycle. States are perfectly able to form groups and agree to a method of choosing regional rep and alternate, e.g., agreement of the state chairs. Once there are any regional reps, the LNC can fill in blanks other than regional reps.

    Wouldn’t the rest of the LNC have to individually agree to resign?

  321. paulie Post author

    Motion to allow adjourn to Orlando and allow LNC to select a replacement location and date if that doesn’t work out.

  322. Carol Moore

    Nick pulled a Czarwark. ha ha ha

    Otherwise I’m 1/2 hour plus behind on youtube cause doggie insisted on walkie. She’s chairwoman of the house.

  323. Losty

    Except they did not put an amendment in keeping delegates.

    I assume the LNC (and maybe state chairs) are delegates by default. That appears to be it. And the chair won’t chair the meeting if he comes at all…

    Interesting.

  324. Anthony Dlugos

    “Except they did not put an amendment in keeping delegates.”

    Did they have to do that?

    Serious question.

  325. Carol Moore

    I’m a half hour behind and the comment was it just means people have to be recredentialed in Orlando. Now the issue of people NOT attending having a vote was NOT addressed and I have a problem with that as a PRECEDENT since it easily could be used to stage a takeover of LP by whomsoever who is even less libertarian than sarwark.

    Sarwark will refuse to sign the contract and try to trash the convention. He should be removed and disgraced.

  326. paulie Post author

    I believe it just means people have to be recredentialed. The states selected delegates and that has not changed.

    Sarwark will refuse to sign the contract and try to trash the convention.

    Did he say this, or are you making that up?

  327. Bondurant

    Probably just soaking up the anti-Sarwark spam from the YouTube. Many tales of conspiracy and treachery but nothing provided to substantiate. Just a bunch of tin foil hat drama.

  328. Anthony Dlugos

    Can’t we just do another Zoom meetup at some point in the future for the LNC spots and call it a day?

    Is that against the bylaws?

  329. Jared

    AD: “Why do the GOP folks hate Spike?”

    paulie: “Associated with Vermin, anarchist, Jew, blah blah blah.”

    Yes, yes, and doubtful. If your point is that libertarian-leaning conservatives are racist, do you really they’d prefer the dark-skinned African American man who is president of his local NAACP chapter over the pastey white Jewish guy?

  330. Anthony Dlugos

    “If your point is that libertarian-leaning conservatives are racist, do you really they’d prefer the dark-skinned African American man who is president of his NAACP local chapter over the pastey white Jewish guy?”

    That thought did occur to me.

    Maybe they’re just upset that the alt-Mises takeover is not going to happen.

  331. paulie Post author

    If your point is that libertarian-leaning conservatives are racist, do you really they’d prefer the dark-skinned African American man who is president of his local NAACP chapter over the pastey white Jewish guy?

    It depends on which ones. Some have more of a problem with Jews, some with blacks, some both, some neither. And please don’t confuse youtube trolls with libertarian-leaning conservatives. There may be some overlap. But clearly two different things.

    I like Monds, but I think Cohen clearly presented better and justifiably won a place on the ticket. He obviously did not do it with Vermin delegates alone.

    As for whether we are white, that depends who you ask. In Russia we were not considered white. Hitler did not consider us white. Fash and klan types in the US don’t consider us white. Many of them play “libertarian-leaning conservative” when they troll youtube and other such platforms. When I get locked up, there is a self-segregation system in many jails and I don’t get considered white by the inmates, they consider me an “other” as they would Spike since we are of Jewish ancestry. And there are tons of fash who hate us worse than they hate blacks. Don’t tell me you didn’t know.

  332. Anthony Dlugos

    “I like Monds, but I think Cohen clearly presented better and justifiably won a place on the ticket. He obviously did not do it with Vermin delegates alone.”

    Must agree.

    I think we missed out on a big opportunity to present a Jorgenson-Monds ticket to the country. The optics would have been great.

    On the other hand, as I noted throughout this weekend, and now concur with paulie….Spike justifiably won. I’m no Vermin fan, but give credit where credit is due: Spike was good all weekend.

    And don’t forget, he beat Armstrong too.

    Also, I’m not sure how much legs the Jorgensen-Monds ticket would have had anyway. My guess is it would have got some initial play in the media…maybe The View or something…and then would have faded away and getting any media to merely return a call would have turned out to be next to impossible.

    Johnson briefly told me in 2016 just how difficult is was for him to get a call returned in 2012 when it was Johnson-Gray, because of Gray’s lack of elective office experience.

  333. paulie Post author

    Jared, look at the comments on the Ballot Access News story about Spike winning the VP nomination and tell me that being Jewish has nothing to do with why some people have a problem with him.

  334. Jared

    paulie: “. . .And there are tons of fash who hate us worse than they hate blacks. Don’t tell me you didn’t know.”

    I think you are reading too much into it. Less sinister explanations are far more likely.

    AD: “Maybe they’re just upset that the alt-Mises takeover is not going to happen.”

    “Alt-Mises” is a pretty great label for that camp.

  335. paulie Post author

    Unfortunately, I’m not. I’m way to familiar with this phenomenon. Again, take a look at that BAN thread and tell me you don’t see it.

  336. Anthony Dlugos

    Nice job in the Hot Air article. Even got into the prag-radical debate.

    Heavy article:

    “Jorgensen Won By More than 51%”

    uh..wut?

  337. Bondurant

    In the YouTube chat some were just trolling but some did make anti-Semetic comments (as few banned IPR users have been doing do Richard’s site). Most of them though were just ruffled because they believed Vermin and Spike were part of a progressive takeover. Just a bunch of hot air to justify their baseless emotions. If you made a Venn Diagram of the anti-Sarwark and anti-Vermin/spike crowd you would have found a lot of overlap.

  338. Jared

    Paulie, I’m not denying the phenomenon exists (especially among paleocons and, ironically, democratic socialists), but I don’t think one anonymous idiot with a neopagan handle, commenting repeatedly about how Cohen is a Mossad-planted (((neocon))) and the black guy should have been VP, reveals an antisemitic streak among disappointed Monds fans. Maybe I’m wrong, but it really doesn’t merit further discussion.

  339. paulie Post author

    antisemitic streak among disappointed Monds supporters.

    I don’t think right wing trolls bitching about Spike on youtube were especially Monds supporters. At best, they saw him as less bad. But many of them would have found some other reason to bitch if he had won the nomination. Most probably wouldn’t have forthrightly said their problem with him is him being black, but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t have been their real issue, or at least a chunk of it.

  340. Jared

    AD: “Nice job in the Hot Air article. Even got into the prag-radical debate.”

    I agree. Just steer clear of the comment section. Good grief.

  341. Bondurant

    It’s not really worth your time unless you’re bored with nothing better to do. Saturday was largely Vermin trolls claiming the process was rigged against Vermin. Some of them carried over to today only this time claiming it was rigged against Spike. Most of the trolling on Sunday was the pseudo Pro-Monds crowd. As Paulie mentioned it wasn’t a pro-Monds feel but anti-Spike. They joined forces with the GOP tourists who seemed convinced Spike was an anarchist (Marxist) agitator. Just a bunch of low lives looking to tear the LP down. Republican interlopers had their panties in a bunch when Spike won. “We won’t vote LP now” crap was getting spewed. Good riddance.

  342. paulie Post author

    Andy Craig
    Visual Storyteller · 3 mins

    This is the motion Utah delegate Christine Stenquist intended to offer if she been properly recognized as the next in the queue ahead of Daniel Hayes jumping the line to block her:

    “The convention adjourns to a second sitting to begin July 9 in Orlando, Florida with remote participation permitted, or otherwise subject to the call of the national committee.”

  343. paulie Post author

    Geoffrey Neale
    5 mins

    It may not be a common opinion, but I think that the online convention went pretty well. It took an inordinate amount of time, but we accomplished what we needed to do. As a former National Chair, I can attest to the “challenges” of sitting in that seat regardless of the venue. In my first session in Atlanta, with more than 800 delegates in the hall, I got pretty flustered, and handed over the gavel to Ken Bisson for a time to get my head together. I think I fared better after that.

    I am reminded of Baron von Moltke who said “No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy”. No matter how much time was spent testing, we would have encountered glitches. The team that put this solution together did admirably with the limits to their resources. Thank you all.

    It is obvious to me that trying to match modern technology with antiquated methodologies (RONR) presents some severe challenges. Should we try to match technology with RONR, or should we adapt to technology?

    If there is a motion to “call the question”, in an in-person meeting, a voice vote can often resolve the question very quickly. Online we had to “poll” the delegates in a process that took at least two minutes longer than a voice vote in person. However, that vote was numerical, rather than the Chair needing to gauge the result. That numerical count eliminates any need for division, which is definitely quicker than a standing count.

    My third biggest problem was how the Q&A and speaker list was maintained. However, I think that working within the limitations of Zoom was more the cause than anything else.

    My second problem is that the panelists could have an open mike and use it whenever they felt like it. I understand why this had to be, but it was a problem, and led to cross-talking, hot mikes, and jumping the line. I also feel sorry for certain individuals who just seemed to ALWAYS be on the panel. I have an image of Whitney Bilyeu burned into my retinas.

    My biggest problem was with the delegates in general, which is no different than an in-person convention. Mostly I blame that on RONR (but that’s just my opinion).

    This convention convinced me that the WORST thing we could do would be to try to have an in-person convention with remote capabilities. We either need to be all online, or all in-person. The struggle to match online polling that takes two minutes with a voice vote would only add time and contention. We could have in-person delegates use the online portion for voting, but then why have an in-person convention at all? How exactly would a Chair equitably match an online speaker list with six lines of delegates standing before six microphones? The answer is not very well at all. No thank you.

  344. paulie Post author

    Alex Merced
    9 hrs

    To be clear to everyone regarding Orlando I will make building the support and capability for online participation a priority. All I ask is work with me to make it happen and July a success.

  345. paulie Post author

    Jo Jorgensen for President
    · 6 hrs ·

    I am honored to have Spike Cohen, Your Next VP as my running mate in the 2020 Presidential election!

    Spike is dedicated to securing freedom for all people, empowering the individual, and ending destructive government power.
    His ability to connect and communicate with people is unparalleled. He will be an inspiring asset to our team and to our great nation.

    Welcome Spike! I look forward to serving with you as President and Vice President of the United States of America!

  346. ATBAFT

    “I look forward to serving with you as President and Vice President of the United States of America!”
    We should all live so long! But now that this obviously unachievable boast is out of the way, Jo and Spike need to concentrate on and conduct a campaign that achieves some measure of acceptance for libertarian ideas and contributes to a growth in Libertarian membership and registration (if that is even possible in 2020 with media promoted mud slinging between Trump and Biden taking all the air out of the room).

  347. Carol Moore

    I know my main objection to spike was there just wasn’t the same emotional connection I and others had to Spike as there was to Monds. Or the feeling Spike would connect with voters as much.

    Spike might get in front of them more because of media skills, but he seems to just babble too quickly and the mind quickly numbs and tunes him out.

    I made fun of his bangs several times.

    If Monds obviously hadn’t been so tired and unready with patter to promote a VP campaign, he might have won. But it is what it is.

    I do worry Spike will try agit prop flaming moves that will make him OUTSHINE Jorgensen in a typical patriarchal macho way and take away from her message (imperfect as it might be). See the ridiculously dramatic photo currently here: https://www.facebook.com/LiterallySpikeCohen/

    Don’t worry, I’ll make memes to make fun of him if he does. So will others.

  348. Carol Moore

    One of my more recent comments in support of inperson national LP conventions, and state ones too, except in extreme circumstances, which I do not think July in Orlando will be, unless the Dems REALLY think they can fuck the people around and blame it all on Trump:

    In-person conventions are important for building solidarity among real activists, sharing and learning, and finding out whether candidates for party office are solid people or more wacky than their online presence might suggest. Having it is also a way of showing libertarians aren’t a bunch of CHICKENS scared off by the media/bureaucrat/state complex.

  349. Carol Moore

    I have a feeling Spikes campaign talked to Jo and hyped what he could do for her media and money wise and that Monds did not make the same kind of push. Maybe she alerted him she would not be making as big a push for him to be VP and thus he was more deflated.

    In any case, we’ll be waiting to see Spike deliver on the promises and not just use the campaign opportunistically for personal aggrandisement. Time will tell…

    By the way there is some famous literary character of the same name – Spike Cohen. Maybe in comic books. I forget. Look it up…

  350. Carol Moore

    paulie May 24, 2020 at 09:11

    Replied to my: At least Trump stuck to groping adult women.

    There are plenty of allegations of Trump going after underage girls, ranging from publicly lusting after his own then teen daughter and his backstage hijinks at teen beauty pageants to hanging out with Epstein and probably sneaking off to the island (passengers on private flights aren’t necessarily recorded) to an accusation of forcible rape by a then 13 year old.

    CM replies. I stand corrected sir! One just doesn’t hear about it as much in media any more. Probably because they don’t want to goad Trump into airing millions of dollars in campaign adverts showing Creepy Uncle Joe feeling up little girls CSPAN video collages now freely available on Youtube.

  351. Anthony Dlugos

    Carol,

    I think you are spot on with your comments of 11:04 and 11:28. Both are quite perceptive.

    That picture in the link you posted at 11:04 is not a very good idea. I have a hard of time telling people just what his name is.

    Jo is, from everything I’ve heard, a genuinely nice person, but she could easily get outshined by Spike, and not in a good way.

    Sadly, Libertarians are enthralled with candidates that speak to US, and Spike has that in spades.

    Me personally, I think people are loathe to enter into the political arena and feel like they are about to be educated.

    What Monds had was the ability to quickly connect with people, people who we have failed to connect with the entire party history, and yes that is because of his color.

    My guess is that people are gonna tune Spike out very quickly.

    I think Spike’s media talents…while possibly good…are small potatoes when compared to what is necessary for a presidential political campaign. Very, very small potatoes.

    On the other hand, I think there was a tiny chance…a little bit less than absolute zero, but more than Spike’s ability to ramp up…that someone with a big checkbook saw a presidential ticket with a woman and a black man with an excellent backstory and would say, “here’s $20 million dollars and a phalanx of connections in the national media industry, let’s see what you can do.”

  352. paulie Post author

    lnc-votes@hq.lp.org via googlegroups.com

    Attachments10:07 AM (2 hours ago)

    to lnc-business, justin.odonnell
    I vote No

    At 4:17 PM sunday, Mr. Hayes sent us all an email admitting that this contract had not yet been reviewed. As the revisions had just been recieved, despite his insistance while speaking during the convention that it was rock solid and had been reviewed and cleared.

    Mr. Goldstein has been posting on social media and on this list upset about the leak of confidential contract information, claiming its an issue because the contract is still being negotiated and we dont have a final version yet.

    The contract that was provided to the LNC Via Email on Saturday morning was quickly followed by remarks from Mr. Hall, the LNC’s retained council, advising of what was in his opinion an incredibly unfavorable contract with regards to riak assignment to the LNC given the circumstances.

    I could be convinced to change my vote to yes, but not until the members of the CoC get on the same page and start spinning the same story consistently at least, rather than insisting the contract is fine and ready during public debate but admitting it hasnt been reviewed privately.

    I will also wait until the contract is returned with a favorable review from our attorney, Mr. Hall.

    On a side note, Region 8 will be holding an election for my replacement electronically next Week, I wish I could say it had been a pleasure to serve with everyone on this board, but unfortunately that would not be displaying the same level of honesty I’ll asking of the CoC members. The last few months this board has been torn apart with childish factionalism and idiotic conflicts of personal natures. Many on this board could benefit from a re-reading of Non-Violent communication, and a realization that you dont need to be so quick to throw a noose over the branch at every percieved slight. I’m embarrased to have been part of this board the past few months, and I’m ashamed for the members of our party who have to explain our conduct.

    Regards,
    Justin O’Donnell
    LNC Region 8 Representative

  353. paulie Post author

    We should all live so long! But now that this obviously unachievable boast is out of the way, Jo and Spike need to concentrate on and conduct a campaign that achieves some measure of acceptance for libertarian ideas and contributes to a growth in Libertarian membership and registration (if that is even possible in 2020 with media promoted mud slinging between Trump and Biden taking all the air out of the room).

    Sadly true.

  354. paulie Post author

    Merced and (tentatively Harlos) have said they will sign in that case.

    Have not fully caught up, but as of where I am now she is saying she needs the party counsel to review some parts and answer some questions first.

  355. Anthony Dlugos

    Can’t we just do a 2nd part online convention for picking new LNC members, keep the platform as is, and call it a day for the year?

  356. paulie Post author

    Or the feeling Spike would connect with voters as much.

    He connects with voters great. That’s actually one of his strengths. He’s had awesome success doing outreach from housing projects to college campuses, you name it.

  357. paulie Post author

    One just doesn’t hear about it as much in media any more.

    It’s old news, and no one seems to care. Like Gotti, he has become the “teflon Don” but then again Gotti got got eventually and is spending his golden years in Florence Supermax with no access to see his kids and grandkids disgrace themselves and his family on reality TV. In Trump’s case, though, he’d probably make it to Trump Tower Moscow or Trump Tower Riyadh before he makes it to Florence, and disgracing the family is, shall we say, operationally impossible.

  358. paulie Post author

    Can’t we just do a 2nd part online convention for picking new LNC members, keep the platform as is, and call it a day for the year?

    In theory, yes. And perhaps that could still happen if the Orlando dates don’t work out. But some people are dead set against that, including some state parties which control ballot lines.

  359. paulie Post author

    Also, bylaws and Roberts may not allow it. Since we adjourned to a time and place certain, a subordinate body (LNC) isn’t supposed to be in a position to override the will of the convention, and I heard something said about how they don’t have the power to schedule a second sitting on their own without the vote of the delegates. So it’s going to be a complicated mess.

  360. dL

    On the other hand, I think there was a tiny chance…
    “here’s $20 million dollars and a phalanx of connections in the national media industry, let’s see what you can do.”

    well, if not for that pesky $2800 federal campaign contribution limit

  361. Anthony Dlugos

    True.

    Didn’t want to get knee-deep in the ins and outs of federal campaign finance law.

    Lets just say that we need a minimum amount, X, to run a legitimate presidential election campaign. Clearly X is possible by some mechanism, because the duopoly parties manage to come up with X squared (at least).

    So my opinion is we have a better chance of getting to X with Monds and collecting checks than we do with Spike and his personal knowledge. It aint a great chance, its probably one in a million type stuff, but its better than zilch.

  362. paulie Post author

    Ken Moellman
    Admin · 1 hr

    Hello everyone — tonight (Monday, May 25th) the COC meets with the LNC to figure out our next steps. Assuming all goes well with that meeting, we’ll be updating the convention website over the next few days. Stay tuned!

  363. paulie Post author

    So my opinion is we have a better chance of getting to X with Monds and collecting checks than we do with Spike and his personal knowledge. It aint a great chance, its probably one in a million type stuff, but its better than zilch.

    IMO we have a better chance with Spike, viral videos, excellent interviews, and great social media/youth outreach.

  364. paulie Post author

    Darryl W. Perry
    Conversation Starter · 3 hrs

    During the tabulation of votes for VP I was recognized by the Chair, and indicated I wanted to be recognized for the purposes of suspending the rules to adopt a resolution. While we never did get to vote on said resolution,, I was able to read the text. It’s a shame we never got to vote on adopting this!

    “Whereas Libertarians believe that individuals are inherently free and that individuals have the rights of to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness; AND

    Whereas we reject the notion that Americans only have these rights because of the atrocities of war; AND

    Whereas the Libertarian Party opposes foreign intervention, and is the only pro-peace political party;

    Be it therefore resolved that the Delegates of the Libertarian Party National Convention believe the only way to honor the countless victims of war is to end the wars, and bring the troops home from around the globe; AND

    Be it further resolved that the Delegates of the Libertarian Party National Convention support peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations-entangling alliances with none.”

  365. paulie Post author

    Dustin Nanna
    3 hrs
    I will do everything I can as the Region 3 Alternate and a Delegate to make sure remote participation is possible in Orlando.

  366. paulie Post author

    John Phillips Jr.
    3 hrs

    Folks, in all this fighting with each other, people on all sides need to work on some empathy and temper the anger. I have not been the greatest example lately, but even in the height of my anger with our chair I often expressed, and still hold, my empathy for his motives and thoughts, as well as admitting when his points were valid.

    My dear friend Alex Merced is the example we should be following on that, as he is fantastic listening, empathizing, and finding solutions.

    People on both sides keep screaming about “oh we are giving into X minority playing games in bad faith”. That is untrue. The truth is that the vast majority are in good faith attempting to find solutions that work for the greatest number of people while respecting individual needs as much as possible. Disagreements on how, why, and what occur but most people are trying their best.

    Indeed almost all theoretically agree on the why, most agree to a significant degree on what, it is the HOW that creates the most difficulty. Disagreements surrounding the how are deeply colored by the uncertainty, the fear of failure due to difficulty – fears of impossibility even, and fear of consequences of not getting it exactly right. This is nothing new, it is part of the human condition, uncertainty and fear drive us, “what if’s” control people everywhere. That alone SHOULD be enough for us to empathize, but fear and uncertainty can also be the biggest barrier to doing so. If we all do our best to overcome that barrier we will be better able to solve the issues, and far more able to come together.

    Including overcoming our fear of the true minority. The small minority of people who are playing games just to get some perceived power or just to play games. The fear that has led and continues to lead others into playing those same games and thus creates a vicious cycle of gamesmanship that creates hard feelings and greatly hampers our ability to get things accomplished.

    We can solve these issues with empathy, patience with others, reasonable transparency, and some good faith work.

    I am pretty good at the last 2, and will continue to strive to improve on the first 2. Will you?

  367. Anthony Dlugos

    “IMO we have a better chance with Spike, viral videos, excellent interviews, and great social media/youth outreach.”

    Fair enough.

    I have nothing in the way of data to prove you wrong. My only response is that youth and people who watch viral videos do not have the sort of money we need.

    Then again, I’m sure you’re aware that the chances of the sort of donors I’m talking about actually corralling the amount of money I am talking about and getting it to a hypothetical Jo/Monds ticket is pretty damn near zero.

    Frankly, I hope you’re right.

  368. paulie Post author

    Paul Vallandigham
    2 hrs

    This weekend was the first sitting of only the second national LP convention I have ever attended. I have attended 3 state LP conventions (CA) and a couple of NRA conventions (yeah, I know, I’m evil, get over it).

    In each of these conventions I have attended, there have been “warring” factions pushing agendas they were very emotionally attached to. Each side has been very distrustful of the other.

    In our current situation, one side is fearful that gathering at a physical location is a certain death sentence for some attendees and/or their loved ones and wanted ONLY an online convention. The other side is fearful that all their hard work for the past two+ years will be flushed down the toilet without good reason and that allowing an online participation option will be a death sentence for the physical convention as a result of disincentivizing physical attendance. They fear they will be crucified for the financial loss this will create. And with good reason.

    A compromise was reached (after a great deal of arguing) at an LNC meeting about a month ago wherein it was agreed that an online sitting would be held to elect POTUS and VP nominees ONLY (to preclude issues with ballot access in some states) and ALL other convention business that wasn’t as urgent was to be conducted at a second sitting at a physical location in July. This compromise was re-affirmed by the delegates when the agenda for the first sitting was set by them last Friday.

    Then somebody threw a hand grenade into the deal late Sunday.

    Any trust that was present was incinerated at that moment. It gave the appearance that the compromise was not made in good faith, that it was a fraudulent deal. And I think we all know what the NAP says about fraud.

    I know from my personal convention experiences that there is a definite psychosocial advantage to gathering at a physical location that you simply don’t get from communicating remotely. There is bonding that happens that you can’t get in any other way.

    I’m a fat 62-year old guy with a 30+ year history of Type 2 diabetes with all the health risk factors inherent in that condition that make me a higher-risk candidate for death from COVID-19 infection. But from what I’ve seen, my risk of death is probably not much higher than during a bad flu season (and yes, I get my flu vaccination every year and there isn’t one for COVID-19 yet — get over it) and I don’t isolate myself every flu season. There are reasons people choose not to attend conventions EVERY YEAR.

    I’m booking my flights and hotel room as soon as that contract is signed. Because we NEED that bonding that comes from physical interaction to heal the current rift.

    And besides, life is full of risks, and NOBODY gets out alive.

    I’m not what I would consider a Libertarian VIP, but I hope to see all of you in Orlando.

  369. paulie Post author

    My only response is that youth and people who watch viral videos do not have the sort of money we need.

    Some of them do, LOL. And the way older media work these days is often driven by social media. If we can make a big splash in social media, that leads to older media stories and interviews. Spike does good interview, so the older folks at home who still write checks as opposed to clicking the donate link can whip out their checkbooks and quills and take a little bit out of their grandkids’ inheritance before it’s too late. This is all relatively speaking of course.

    Also, if we can in fact get back to in person campaigning, Spike actually does very well in the hood. Don’t assume that just because he’s not black he can’t connect. He’s not scared to go anywhere and knows how to talk to folks and show he cares. Based on what happened in Wilmington, people who are used to being written off or taken for granted by politicians appreciate someone willing to come to their stoop and actually share concerns. Enough of this leads to community event speaking opportunities and news articles and it can take off from there.

  370. Anthony Dlugos

    That’s a strong argument.

    One thing is for sure: I may THINK JoMo was the way to go for that money, but I know we got a much better shot with JoCo than with Vermin/Monds.

  371. paulie Post author

    Nicholas Sarwark
    20 mins

    For those of you who enjoy Libertarian Party inside baseball, a fun email I received from John Mcafee prior to the national convention:

    “From John McAfee
    Inbox
    x
    Johnny Bgood

    Sat, May 16, 4:08 PM (9 days ago)

    to dan.fishman, Chair
    I am horrified that you are actually attempting to do on-line voting, when, for example, countries like Israel have spent hundreds of millions of dollars, over as many as seven years trying unsuccessfully to develop on-line voting systems.

    I assure you … as a world renowned computer security expert …

    I will not let you get away with this.

    Please …

    Continue and see what happens.

    Also.

    I tegistered with the FCC under my legal name -J.D. Mcafee.

    You damn well know this.

    Please ..

    Put my name back.on your National web site or you will …. I fucking promise you … hear from me in a most unpleassnt fucking way.

    Are we fucking clear?

    I’ve paid my worthless fucking dues to the Party and I have registered with the FCC.

    Do your fucking duty assholes.”

  372. paulie Post author

    The Chair told me in no uncertain terms that he would not sign a
    contract for an in person convention this year. This motion does not
    preclude him from changing his mind but does allow the LNC an option if
    he does not. The hotel is not going to keep a block on our rooms
    forever.

    Sincerely,


    Sam Goldstein, At Large Member

  373. paulie Post author

    Arvin Vohra
    17 mins

    An Open Letter to Daniel Behrman, Kim Ruff, Libertarian, and Adam Kokesh:

    As you may have noticed, I love giving the first opening statement in any debate. I love being the first speaker in a convention, rather than the evening keynote.

    The reason is that I want to be able to set the tone, to frame the debate, to choose the controversies.

    This is the first year since 2004 that the LP didn’t pick a washed out Republican to misrepresent our platform. Visionary ancap Spike Cohen is on the ticket.

    Within 24 hours of getting the nomination, Jorgensen has pledged to pardon all nonviolent drug users on day 1. She has pledged to end the wars and bring the troops home. She has pledged to end the income tax and cut spending accordingly. This isn’t another Barr, Weld, or Johnson.

    So my message to you is simple: thank you. None of us were the nominee, and I’ve publicly stated that I would have preferred any one of you to Jo. But I’ve also stated that I strongly prefer Jo to confused centrists like Amash, Weld, or Chafee.

    Your work, our work, changed the tone of the debate long before the latecomer centrists entered the race. By the time Chafee entered, he was woefully out of place. We had pushed the conversation too far. Chafee was no longer in the party’s Overton window. Amash read the room and left.

    The LNC tried to stall us. They tried to make sure no one saw our debates. They blocked us from their social media, from LP.org, from their massive email list. But it didn’t work. At least one of us was there at almost every state convention. Most conventions had a few of us. We brought our message directly to every state. The LNC’s desperate attempts to block our message of stateless voluntarism just didn’t work.

    American culture has produced American government. But the culture in the LP also creates the decisions of the LP. We changed LP culture. We didn’t take it as far as we wanted. We didn’t get an all voluntarist ticket. But this isn’t a repeat of the last 3 cycles either. Spike Cohen isn’t Bill Weld.

    I can guarantee you this: if we’d played by the LNC rules, waited until a few months before May to announce, things would be quite different right now.

    For all the incredible work you’ve done, and for everything you’re going to do, thank you.

    In Liberty,

    Arvin Vohra

  374. paulie Post author

    lnc-votes@hq.lp.org via googlegroups.com

    1:40 PM (2 hours ago)

    to Alicia, Libertarian
    John, the LNC has delegated the authority for contract negotiation to the
    COC. We get legal counsel review. The LNC does not typically approve the
    contract. That is not part of the usual process. It wasn’t part of the
    process when this LNC chose Reno for 2022 and D.C. for 2024. This time COC
    has chosen to expand the number of eyes on it and share the contract with
    the LNC because of all the political games being played.

    All:

    I’m going to do another hard read of the contract and our legal counsel’s
    comments before the COC meeting tonight.

    I know some have been trying to use scare tactics to manipulate the
    delegates with fears about financial risk, etc.

    When there is a clause that says our food & beverage requirement is $X, it
    is the legal counsel’s job to say, “I want to draw your attention to this
    item, which is a financial risk.” He isn’t opining about whether it’s a
    reasonable number in the circumstances. That’s for the COC to evaluate,
    and we have. Our counsel is making sure we are aware of it. And we are.
    And the number in this contract is very comfortable to the COC. It is
    WAAAAY lower than the number in a typical convention contract. Same thing
    with room block attrition. Yes, it is a non-zero risk, but the COC has
    discussed it in the context of potential low-turnout due to COVID-19, in
    context of historical numbers, and we’re very comfortable that we can meet
    these requirements. When someone portray’s counsel’s highlight of the
    number to say, “there are concerns” well that’s not really a fair
    representation.

    People are too willing to fan the flames of hysteria without the underlying
    facts. The facts will be up for discussion on the COC meeting tonight.
    We’ll show you historical comparison data. Then let’s get on with it
    because it’s only 45 days until the convention needs to call to order in
    Orlando.

    -Alicia

  375. dL

    Lets just say that we need a minimum amount, X, to run a legitimate presidential election campaign. Clearly X is possible by some mechanism, because the duopoly parties manage to come up with X squared (at least).

    X~=100,000,000, as a minimum

    Duopoly is a factor of 10 times X, not X squared. X^2 would be 1 quadrillion dollars, which doesn’t exist(aggregate global wealth is nowhere near that figure)

  376. dL

    I have nothing in the way of data to prove you wrong. My only response is that youth and people who watch viral videos do not have the sort of money we need.

    Individually, no. Collectively, they could have enough. Demonstrated in the wild by Bernie Sanders and to a lesser extent, Ron Paul. The formula: long time dogged consistency on issues that effectively marginalizes you from the conventional wisdom. Wait for world events to vindicate your contrarian viewpoint(with Sanders, it was the 2009 bailouts. With Paul, the Iraq war). Ride the internet/ social media money bomb wave to competitive fundraising. Of course, it also helps that both managed to get themselves elected in the first place by taking advantage of localized political dynamics.

    Waiting on billionaire angel investors to fund the LP has an obvious flaw: billionaires don’t need the LP. One would think the history of the Koch brothers would have put that fantasy to rest by now.

  377. Anthony Dlugos

    well I wish Spike well. Maybe he proves me wrong. Who knows? Him on the Joe Rogan podcast might be some kind of spark or something.

  378. Jared

    Is that Vohra’s idea of a concession speech?

    “The corrupt LNC tried to silence and suppress us, but we uncompromised radicals drove out the wicked centrists and cleared a path for our ancap comrade to claim the VP slot! (And at least Jo is somewhat tolerable.) Good work, fellow pure candidates.”

    Delusions both paranoid and grandiose.

  379. paulie Post author

    It was a facebook comminique to some of the other losing campaigns. Had he had enough tokens to get an actual concession speech, I would hope and expect that he would have been more diplomatic.

  380. paulie Post author

    On 2020-05-25 18:46, justin.odonnell— via Lnc-business wrote:

    In february, the Jorgensen Campaign presented the LNC with a data sharing agreement they intended to keep to should they win the nomination.

    I spoke with representatives of the campaign last night, and they brought up that they intend to honor it, even if the LNC didn’t accept the agreement, and would be sharing all their donor and volunteer data in real time with the LNC. They are making party membership growth a primary focus of the campaign.

    They intend to give the data to LPHQ regardless if the LNC accepts the agreement, but would prefer that the LNC do accept the agreement and provide instruction to staff to more easilly facilitate the data sharing so that we can best utilize their campaign data to grow party membership.

    Justin O’Donnell
    LNC Region 8 Representative

  381. paulie Post author

    Tom Mahon shared his first post.
    New Member · 9 mins

    When I Worked In The Airline Industry We Called This A “Creeping Delay”.

    I.E. When a flight keeps getting later and later and inevitably leads to a cancellation.

    Last night slick salespeople of the Convention Oversight Committee put on their latest dog and pony show for the LNC about the wonders of the in person Convention in Orlando beginning July 8th.
    At the Rosen Shingle Creek Hotel.

    As a way to convince the LNC to bypass the recommendations of the Chair (a lawyer), and the LP’s Legal Counsel (a lawyer as well!) not to sign what they consider to be a potentially dangerous contract with the hotel in Orlando.

    Immediately afterward, the most vocal supporting members of the LNC took to Social Media to encourage delegates to go ahead and start booking room packages at the hotel for $129/night.

    This morning, The COC sent out surveys to delegates to gauge interest in attending the Convention in Orlando.

    What the COC has FAILED to do in the last 12 hours was:

    1/Advise the LNC or delegates that the Hotel “close date” has been extended from June 9, 2020 until June 30, 2020. The likelihood of that close date being extended further is very high. Florida is still in Phase 1 Recovery. It is possible and been rumored that it will go to Phase 2 as early as next week.
    HOWEVER, it needs to be noted that restrictions on large meetings in Phase 2 are EXACTLY the same as Phase 1.

    2/The COC flat out rejected suggestions from LNC members to send out a survey to delegates asking if they would sanction online participation (it works!) for the Orlando Convention to those delegates either medically compromised or restricted from traveling into a Florida based on State 14 day quarantine restrictions, personal job quarantine restrictions or “return home” restrictions.

    Reinforcing a long running unofficial policy, but not unspoken flame on Social Media, of:
    “Can’t Come To Orlando? Too Bad, Stay Home, Your Voice Is Meaningless To Us”.

    End the nonsense COC/LNC.
    It’s getting to the point that it is no longer handwriting on the wall.
    It’s a great big neon sign.
    Orlando is not going to happen.

    What’s Plan G?

  382. paulie Post author

    Justin O’Donnell for U.S. Senate shared an event.
    8 hrs ·

    Here’s the deal, on Memorial Day, May 25th, we held an impromptu money bomb to support the Jorgensen/Cohen campaign, with very little run up or planning. We were astounded with the results.

    Over $25,000 was raised in 24 hours, to kick off the Campaign, even though we didn’t have a fundraising gala for them at convention this year.

    Let’s take that outpouring of support, and start tranlating it to down ballot candidates.
    Lets focus on the ballot access races, of candidates who will be serving as the supporting cast for the Jorgensen Campaign, and delivering her message of freedom locally to their home state’s voters.

    This week’s featured candidate will be New Hampshire’s own Justin O’Donnell. Justin is running for US Senate, in a race to secure Ballot Access for The Libertarian Party of New Hampshire. Justin is the author of “Selling Liberty: Communicating Freedom in an Unfree World,” a brief study in the translation of sales and communications techniques to political campaigns and activism. Justin had previously ran for US Congress In New Hampshire’s Second Congressional District, and has also served on the Libertarian National Committee as the Region 8 Representative.

    On Monday we turned out for Jo, on Friday can we turn out for Justin?

    https://facebook.com/events/s/lp-downballot-money-bomb-serie/1990465324431196/?ti=as

  383. paulie Post author

    Justin O’Donnell for U.S. Senate shared a link.
    9 hrs ·

    The total fundraising for the campaign for Memorial Day, Monday, May 25th, 2020 was $25,964.50.

    I want to make a heartfelt thanks to each and every one of you who participated in this Money Bomb or donated elsewise.

    This was an expiriment for me. I had a crazy idea and wanted to see if people could get behind it. You all vastly exceeded my expectations with your commitment and generosity.
    It’s been a long day for me, and a long day for the campaign staff that have been putting up with me and giving me regular updates as we went.

    I don’t want this to stop today, I want to do this again, and regularly. And I want us to blow this number out of the water next fime!
    I’m going to brainstorm with campaign staff in the next couple days to talk about what we can do to keep this momentum rolling.

    In the meantime, what can YOU do?

    1. If you havent donated yet, you still can at http://www.joj2020.com/contribute-to-jo

    2. If you have donated, you can share with your friends and tell them about Jo and how they can help too!

    3. You’re on Facebook, make sure you like and follow both Jo and Spike’s Facebook pages. And share them with your friends too!

    4. If you’re on twitter, you can follow Jo at @Jo4liberty

    5. If you want to help the down ballot candidates who are going to be helping Jo and Spike deliver the message to Millions of Americans, find out who’s running in your state and help them the same way, their campaigns need money too!

    6. Lastly, if you havent already, you can join the Libertarian Party at lp.org/join

    This isn’t an exhaustive list of how you can help, I’m tired, and overjoyed so I’m sure I’m missing things.

    But keep on spreading the good words of freedom. And I hope to see you all again next week!!!!

  384. paulie Post author

    Karl Dickey shared a link.
    Admin · 1 hr

    Tonight at 7p.m. Eastern see Jo Jorgensen and Spike Cohen interviewed. #Election2020 Libertarian Party

  385. paulie Post author

    Kryssi Wichers: I’m excited to finally have candidates who can appeal to different demos. Forever our ticket appealed to the same people. Jo will appeal to some of the middle aged to older crowd, moderates and women. Spike will appeal to left leaners, youth and disenfranchised voters.
    YAY!!!!!

  386. Anthony Dlugos

    Yea, I’ve seen that argument before, and it’s fallacious, and frankly insulting to young people.

    Ron Paul and Bernie Sanders were both in their seventies and appealed to young people and the disenfranchised more than Spike will.

    It’s insulting to suggest that young people in the political arena can’t be talked to unless they are treated to a comedy routine.

    Anyone wanna make a bet? I argue Gov Johnson will end up with more youth votes than Jo-Spike does.

  387. paulie Post author

    lnc-votes@hq.lp.org via googlegroups.com

    4:55 PM (24 minutes ago)

    to LNC-Business, Nicholas
    Dear All,

    Thank you to the Convention Oversight Committee for putting together this
    afternoon’s call with Harris Rosen and the staff at Rosen Shingle Creek.
    Oliver Hall, our special counsel, was able to participate. Mr. Hall and
    myself had the opportunity to directly discuss concerns we had with the
    existing proposed contract and get a sense directly from Mr. Rosen about
    what can be done to get to a mutually beneficial agreement.

    Mr. Hayes is going to connect Mr. Hall with the representatives of the
    Rosen Group directly so they can work on getting a contract that meets our
    concerns and sets the Libertarian Party up for a successful event.

    Yours truly,

    Nick
    ____

  388. paulie Post author

    Ron Paul and Bernie Sanders were both in their seventies and appealed to young people and the disenfranchised more than Spike will.

    It depends on how many get to hear the message. But during Kryssi’s show with Spike she had a bunch of people who were never in the LP calling donating, joining and volunteering. Give it a chance to build. It may just surprise you how well it can work.

  389. Anthony Dlugos

    I’m prepared to be pleasantly surprised, sir.

    As I was by Spike’s performance last weekend.

  390. robert capozzi

    AD,

    Apples and oranges. The GJ model will of course garner the most youth votes, but Spike may attract thousands of new NAP Fundamentalists into the vanguard. To NAP “purists,” that’s all that matters.

  391. paulie Post author

    Bananas.

    Most will not be NAP “purists,” certainly not right away, and most will never be (unless and until it becomes far more common that now). But they can be more than just LP voters in one cycle. They can become contributors, donors, party members, activists, future candidates – many things above and beyond just voting for a presidential ticket and moving on.

    For once we have a national ticket candidate who has this appeal to a group the LP has not made much of an effort to appeal to. Let’s give it a chance to work.

  392. paulie Post author

    Thomas L. Knapp
    May 27 at 11:04 AM ·

    PSA:

    In 2004, the Libertarian Party nominated a guy for vice-president who then proceeded to put out a press release claiming Gandhi had endorsed him.

    In 2008, the Libertarian Party nominated a Las Vegas sports odds scammer who had endorsed a McCain/Lieberman ticket for the GOP (and who later, thankfully, returned to the GOP so as to get better media placement for other scams) for vice-president.

    In 2016, the Libertarian Party nominated a guy who had covered for the Iran-Contra conspirators and for Whitey Bulger’s Winter Hill Gang, who had helped Rudy Giuliani build the RICO surveillance/terror state, and who went on to advocate suppressing the gun and due process rights of people on secret government enemies lists, for vice-president.

    Spike Cohen’s chest hair isn’t a scandal.

    That is all.

  393. robert capozzi

    pf: Let’s give it a chance to work.

    me: It’s been tried in 84, 92, 96, 00, 04. The State’s much larger and the LP remains an asterisk. Perhaps lightening will strike from a ticket made up of a decent state legislative candidate and a talented clown.

    Not holding my breath.

  394. George Phillies

    I have confirmed that Mr. Hayes was removed as chair of the Convention Oversight Committee, by National Chair Sarwark. LNC Attorney Hall is negotiating with the hotel to see if a reasonable contract can be obtained.

  395. paulie Post author

    I have confirmed that Mr. Hayes was removed as chair of the Convention Oversight Committee, by National Chair Sarwark. LNC Attorney Hall is negotiating with the hotel to see if a reasonable contract can be obtained.

    One of many developments on the LNC list recently. Anyone want to write any of them up as an article?

  396. paulie Post author

    Joe Bishop-Henchman
    Admin · 1 min

    It’s been a wild few days, to say the least.

    Many have rightly been focused on the murder of George Floyd, the belated arrest of the officer who did it, and the actions and inactions as a result. As Minnesota LP Chair Chris Holbrook put it: “Justice is due. Prosecution is required. Reform is mandatory. Inaction is acceptance.”

    I’ve also been distressed by the news of China’s new law extending secret police jurisdiction to Hong Kong, basically ending Hong Kong’s promised 50 years of autonomy after just 23. It’s a place I love visiting, and with a stroke of a pen 7.5 million people have gone from living in one of the freest places on earth to an authoritarian regime, in an instant.

    While all that’s been going on, the president has launched yet another crazy power-grab in his assault on the First Amendment and free enterprise on the internet. And of course while he’s worried about his tweets, we are all still struggling with the realities of a deadly pandemic, social distancing, and bad government policies that have compounded a humanitarian and economic catastrophe.

    With all that going on in the world, it’s also been a hectic week on the LNC. I was just as disappointed as everyone else about the games on our last day of our virtual convention, especially since it had gone so well Saturday and Sunday morning. It’s been followed by a week of brinksmanship and “my way or the highway” tactics on the LNC – none of which has helped elect one Libertarian, raise one dollar, or get one positive news story.

    My approach when I’ve chaired boards and committees and as an at-large representative – and if I’m elected LNC Chair – is to facilitate decisions: ‘facilitate’ as in make sure all points of consensus and conflict get a chance to be aired, and ‘decisions’– keeping the body focused on moving towards as close to consensus as you can get before reaching and acting upon what we have chosen. Instead, the favorite approaches this week seem to be unilateralism, refusal to engage, escalating rather than de-escalating, and ramming half-baked stuff through with a bare majority (or less). All that stuff destroys trust, and results in worse and unstable outcomes.

    I also believe in staying positive, even when we have internal disputes. While I believe in transparency and will always explain my position and where I stand, pitched public dramas and all the mudslinging that can go with them is not really a productive way to deal with disagreements on the LNC. When I get frustrated, I don’t run to Facebook but work harder with LNC members to find consensus and a solution. Which I will admit, the frustration has been more often than usual these past few weeks, and I know I’m far from alone in feeling that way.

    Despite that, there are good things happening in the Libertarian Party, and we are making important progress towards our goal of electing principled Libertarians to public office. Here are some of the solutions I’ve worked on this week:

    1. I participated in a 2-1/2 hour call with other LNC members and the convention committee that achieved somewhat of a breakthrough in negotiations on the Orlando contract and convention plan, and got the ball rolling on finishing the negotiations. Assuming no more surprises pop up, it should be signed by Monday, on terms much more favorable and less risky to the party.

    2. Connected with two national reporters who wrote positive stories on the Jorgensen/Cohen ticket, and have been in touch with their campaign team on ways to help as they quickly transition to a national general election campaign.

    3. Prevented a regional agreement crisis – this one would have stripped 18+ states of their LNC representation – by getting a clarification on the record that bought more time for paperwork to be sent in. It was a panicky moment that I hope you didn’t even notice because we worked together to fix it before it became a problem. Thank you especially to Mr. Hagan, Mr. Longstreth, Mr. Phillips, and Ms. Harlos for their roles in helping fix this, fast. (I hope the Alligator Caucus will forgive me for taking up 3 minutes of floor time first thing Sunday morning to get it done.)

    4. Continuing to touch base with people all over the party on remote participation for the second sitting, trying to keep that moving forward towards a solution. A lot of great people are working on this. Your thoughts and ideas are welcome. We’re currently scheduling a bylaws committee meeting for some time in mid-early June (TBA soon), by which time we aim to have developed a consensus plan with broad buy-in and input from across the party.

    5. Ethan and I donated another $100 to the Frontier Project, our crucial priority effort to elect Libertarian state legislators this November. There is some very good news and developments here as filings close in many of these states, so stay tuned for news from Apollo Pazell and reach out to him if you’d like to get involved; he is particularly looking for people to volunteer as phonebankers. If you’d like to donate as well, visit Libertarianfrontier.com/donate.

  397. paulie Post author

    It’s been tried in 84, 92, 96, 00, 04.

    You missed that I wasn’t talking about your ever-present bugaboo of NAP fundamentalism. I’m talking about reaching out to a younger generation that is justifiably angry about the mess prior generations are leaving them, used to sarcastic humor as a way of dealing with politics and world affairs, have much in common in libertarians but are rarely approached by libertarians in terms they relate to, and feel themselves pulled towards Democrats and further left or non-voting.

    Vermin and Spike reach a lot of these folks, whereas traditional libertarians – whether extreme or milquetoast – fail to do so, and that’s what I am saying we need to give a chance.

  398. Jared

    paulie: “I have confirmed that Mr. Hayes was removed as chair of the Convention Oversight Committee, by National Chair Sarwark.”

    And from the sound of it, Harlos wants Sarwark’s head on a platter. I’m starting to feel really bad for Merced.

  399. paulie Post author

    That was George, but I confirm both of those as well. Alex looks like he’s above the brawl and gaining popularity fast.

  400. robert capozzi

    pf,

    Thanks for clarifying. I wonder if there will be a Millenial sensibility coming from Team J/C. I see JJ as a down-the-line NAP Fundamentalist who happens to be a woman. She doesn’t come across like a robot, so that’s in her favor. She claims to be both “principled” and “pragmatic,” though my casual observation is that she doesn’t advocate positions that could plausibly be adopted in the next 5 years.

    SC might become the driving force for the campaign’s tone, or maybe he’ll just freelance off to the side.

  401. Anthony Dlugos

    “I’m talking about reaching out to a younger generation that is justifiably angry about the mess prior generations are leaving them, used to sarcastic humor as a way of dealing with politics and world affairs, have much in common in libertarians but are rarely approached by libertarians in terms they relate to, and feel themselves pulled towards Democrats and further left or non-voting…Vermin and Spike reach a lot of these folks, whereas traditional libertarians – whether extreme or milquetoast – fail to do so…”

    paulie, the overwhelming majority of politically active young people take politics and the political process much more seriously than you suggest. They want to fix the system, not abolish it. They want to enfranchise the disenfranchised, not to watch us ridicule the franchise as unimportant.

    What turns them off about libertarians is either explicitly or implicitly suggesting we now or at some point in the future want kick granny and poor people to the curb. Prefacing that message with humor and sarcasm will not work.

    In other words, to paraphrase Bill Clinton, its the message, stupid. (I don’t mean you personally.)

    I understand why Vermin attracted so much support. Its a tacit acknowledgement of how extreme the purer libertarian message is, and, rather than getting angry as RC has suggested many NAPists do, these people took to humor.

    I am not optimistic about it working.

    Could it garner some attention? Sure.

    But eventually voters…young and old alike…want to hear concrete policy positions. No amount of humor will stop the voters from fleeing en masse at that point if they sense any level of “the government should have done nothing in response to the coronavirus, back before the FDA existed, blah, blah, blah.. .

  402. robert capozzi

    AD,

    I think PF’s referring to alienated Millenials and GenZs, not those who’ve already picked a team. Frankly, I really don’t see all that much difference between generational attitudes. Dogmatists especially like to focus their conversion efforts on the young, who tend to be more pliable and gullible.

  403. paulie Post author

    I would say open minded, not gullible. There is an actual difference in generational attitudes. Comes from different circumstances growing up and different means of communication etc.

  404. Anthony Dlugos

    “I really don’t see all that much difference between generational attitudes.”

    I don’t either.

    We have polling on voters and non-voters alike, the very old and the very young.

    If there was anything approaching NAPist thinking among the American people, it would have been discovered by now.

    The differences in generational attitudes that paulie refers to exist, but they are much more clustered around typical positions than many Libertarians like to think. These Libertarians conjure up an opposition to the state IN PRINCIPLE from dissatisfaction with current policies.

    Worse, the more likely someone is to vote, the less likely they are going to consider outlier policies, much less a road to anarchism…explicitly or implicitly argued for.

  405. dL

    paulie, the overwhelming majority of politically active young people take politics and the political process much more seriously than you suggest.

    And you know this how, exactly?

  406. Anthony Dlugos

    for starters, how about electoral contests all over this country at all levels of government going back as far as I can remember?

    I see them voting for legitimate, serious candidates with actual experience, serious policy proposals and legitimate resumes, not comedians baring their chest and offering policies about time machines, replacing the SCOTUS with a guy named Reginald, and Waffle Houses.

    Now, I could be wrong. I’ve been wrong before. Spike could be aware of a massive number of youth willing to entertain a farce candidacy, a voting bloc that has never been uncovered before.

    We’ll see what happens in November.

  407. paulie Post author

    A lot don’t vote at all. A lot vote for the D and R just to keep the other out. A higher percentage voted for Johnson and Stein than of older people, but the LP and GP failed to really capture them.

    Spike has in fact connected well with youth and disenfranchised audiences. He doesn’t have a huge platform yet, but that’s why it needs a chance to build. It probably won’t be a huge number of votes in a up/down Trump referendum year, but hearts and minds and activists and future donors and candidates matter, not just one cycle votes. The LP is still sputtering along mainly off the youth vote from circa 1980, now graying. It needs to connect with another generational surge.

    Like Vermin, Spike is neither all farce nor all serious. It works for some people. Not everyone, and not everyone will hear it, but you can’t get everyone. The LP’s all-serious candidates don’t get everyone either.

  408. paulie Post author

    These Libertarians conjure up an opposition to the state IN PRINCIPLE from dissatisfaction with current policies.

    It’s an opening. From there, work with people and over time some will open their minds more, some will become activists in the party, some will move on to other aspects of the movement, and so on.

  409. paulie Post author

    Worse, the more likely someone is to vote, the less likely they are going to consider outlier policies, much less a road to anarchism…explicitly or implicitly argued for.

    You have to give people who are not well served by status quo parties a reason to vote. Many won’t, but some will. For the people relatively well served by status quo parties, offering a marginally small difference with little chance of winning is not much of an incentive.

  410. Anthony Dlugos

    welp, as I noted earlier, paulie…I hope you are right and I am wrong.

  411. paulie Post author

    Sarwark to LNC:

    Dear All,

    Less than 24 hours after replacing the Convention Oversight Committee
    Chair, the contract with the Rosen Group has been successfully
    renegotiated. Members of the Convention Oversight Committee and the
    Libertarian National Committee are taking the opportunity to review it
    prior to my execution of the contract on Monday.

    In that same period of time, I have received 110 separate emails from LNC
    and COC members, not counting the roughly 100 emails from members
    expressing their opinions about my actions.

    For the benefit of those who may not be aware, I don’t find the 100th
    instance of being accused of “dishonesty,” “abusing power,” or starting a
    “shitshow” more persuasive than the first. Calling me a “rat fuck,” as one
    member has repeatedly and publicly done has not changed my mind, though it
    has provided me more information about the member’s character, temperament,
    and fitness for any position in the Libertarian Party.

    Members of this committee have the freedom to continue to abuse each other,
    obstruct the conduct of the party’s business, and waste time with fruitless
    motions to try to spite me. How they choose to use their freedoms has not
    gone unnoticed.

    Yours in liberty,
    Nick

  412. paulie Post author

    CAH replies:

    I observe that the reason the contract was able to be renegotiated is
    because you finally re-engaged after multiple times refusing to do so, and
    the only reason the opportunity presented itself is because Mr. Hayes
    arranged to have Mr. Rosen present. I am very glad things are moving along
    but your insinuation here that it is because you unjustly removed Mr. Hayes
    is false and not worthy of you. You removed a political opponent simply
    because he was a political opponent. I find it surprising that anyone
    wants to volunteer on any committee after treatment like that. You could
    have renegotiated this weeks ago. Instead you postured on social media on
    how it was irresponsible to have a convention at all. Is that no longer
    your position? Your actions are mecurial and arbitrary.

    Any motions I make are not out of spite. They are what I believe is in the
    best interest of the Party. We disagree. That is fine. But I will
    correct the record. Not everything is about you.

  413. robert capozzi

    pf: Comes from different circumstances growing up and different means of communication etc.

    me: There might be some of this, but — I dunno — it seems like generational political attitudes are more a function of one’s age. Certainly the Silents were scarred by the Depression, and they tend to save more, for ex. But they have a range of political views. Millenials may well have shorter attention spans than Boomers, on average, but I’m just not convinced that their political views are substantially different due to tech.

    I’ve heard that Millenials are more open to socialism, and given how busted they tend to be, it’s somewhat understandable. For them, “socialism” probably means “cancel student debt” and so forth. Perhaps their shorter attention spans makes it harder to sell them lessarchism.

    NAP “purism” has always been an extremely difficult sell through the decades, since it is based on a far-fetched construct, as it’s only attractive to the gullible, as I once was.

  414. paulie Post author

    Of course there’s always a range of views. But there’s an increased opening for both socialist and libertarian views. It depends on how they are marketed.

  415. paulie Post author

    I wonder if there will be a Millenial sensibility coming from Team J/C

    Only from the bottom of the ticket.

  416. paulie Post author

    As most P and VP candidates they’ll do mostly separate campaigning but some joint. Hopefully they will not get in each other’s way and will find opportunities to help each other out.

  417. robert capozzi

    I can envisage SC going off-the-rails and embarrassing JJ. My expectation is that both will be so far below the radar that they probably won’t do too much damage to the cause of lessarchism.

  418. paulie Post author

    There’s an appeal of the ruling of the chair that he had the authority to remove Hayes from the CoC.

  419. dL

    I can envisage SC going off-the-rails and embarrassing JJ.

    JJ is in conflict with herself(or perhaps a staffer). Twitter JJ is tweeting “Riots are the language of the unheard” while website JJ is issuing press releases exhorting people to smartphone record rioters for swift prosecution.

  420. paulie Post author

    Sarwark to LNC: Dear All,

    While I appreciate the suggestions from the Convention Oversight Committee,
    I’m going to sign the contract negotiated by Mr. Hall, Ms. Ryan, and Mr.
    Kraus and approved for signature by Mr. Hall.

    Yours truly,
    Nick

  421. paulie Post author

    Sam Goldstein replies:

    Sorry, but that contract was not approved by the COC and is void.

    Sam Goldstein also replies:

    The COC is not suggesting anything. We voted to approve a contract with
    specific language and set it to the Chair for signature. He has stated
    that he will not sign the contract approved by the COC and thus Ms.
    Harlos will be able to sign it before tomorrow’s deadline once the
    pending motion is finalized.

    Alicia Mattson replies:

    I suppose I should thank the chair for at least telling us that he intends
    to act outside of his authority…??

    I’m not sure whether LNC members are getting the track-changes version or a
    changes-accepted version, but let me highlight for you the differences
    between the Nick version and the COC version:

    1) COC added a sentence in “21. Cancellation”
    2) COC added a sentence in “24. Force Majeure”
    3) COC added two phrases in “30. Confirmation” noting that this version is
    COC-approved and supersedes any previous version
    4) COC also struck out the name of Robert Kraus as the person the hotel
    expected to sign and replaced with “Officer”, but that wasn’t going to
    happen anyway. It was just a placeholder.

    To be very clear for our readers, the version Nick says he intends to sign
    is the one he believes he can unilaterally cancel. The COC-authorized
    version says the cancellation or force-majeure clauses may only be
    exercised by an affirmative vote of the LNC.

    That is the difference.

  422. paulie Post author

    Mattson again:

    I know the chair is aware of these things, and he may not care, but for the
    edification of other readers…

    The chair’s authority is limited by LNC policies and directives. Bylaw
    Article 6.3:

    —————————————————————————-

    “The Chair is the chief executive officer of the Party with full authority
    to direct its business and affairs, including hiring and discharging of
    National Committee volunteers and paid personnel, subject to express
    National Committee policies and directives issued in the exercise of the
    National Committee’s plenary control and management of Party affairs,
    properties and funds.”
    —————————————————————————-

    The LNC has delegated its authority to approve convention contracts to the
    Convention Oversight Committee, and the chair is not authorized to sign one
    that did not receive such approval. Policy Manual Section 2.02.7:

    —————————————————————————-

    “The Convention Oversight Committee shall make recommendations for
    convention sites to the LNC, but the LNC shall choose the site. On other
    matters concerning the Party’s conventions, the committee shall act on
    behalf of the LNC, including:

    -conveying requirements to convention planners.
    -ensuring the convention meets the Party’s needs.
    -reviewing and approving in a timely manner major elements, such as
    contracts, the convention budget and the convention program.”
    —————————————————————————-

    Essentially the chair is telling us that he intends to defy the bylaws and
    LNC policies and sign an unauthorized contract.

    -Alicia

  423. paulie Post author

    CAH to LNC:

    I call upon the LNC to remove the chair if he forwards a signed contract
    outside of his authority.

  424. paulie Post author

    Alex Merced to LNC:

    Just a reminder I’m ready and willing to co-sign a contract. Cell phone is the quickest way to reach me when it comes to that point.

    The CoC modification was Fair and reasonable in context of the conversation at this point. Delegates need to book flights and hotels, different groups need to rush to get to planning not just this event but the technology and efforts to allow broad participation and giving them the certainty that this event won’t be canceled under unreasonable circumstances isn’t much to ask for.

    I know I am trying my best to be open to all sides and facilitate a result that maximizes what everyone wants, and while I appreciate the Chair coming to the CoC meeting and speaking on Thursday along with the renegotiation of the contract and will continue to see these actions in good faith, I don’t see a good faith reason to not accept the modification. This is not asking for 2/3 or a unanimous vote to cancel, but a simple majority which should be quite attainable if circumstances warrant it.

    Alex Merced
    Vice Chair of the Libertarian National Committee/LP

  425. NewFederalist

    This just keeps getting worse. How will all this bickering affect ballot status?

  426. paulie Post author

    CAH to LNC:

    When everyone sees the contract revisions they will see why our chair is
    objecting. He wants to be cancel unilaterally. That is the one reason to
    object. He has been subverting the LNC ever since we decided in a way he
    didn’t agree with. If he forwards an unauthorized contract to the hotel,
    please consider this a request for co-sonsors for a motion to remove.
    Removal must be done at a meeting. My request does not become valid until
    he sends over the contract. After that point, once four people
    indicate they will join me in this request, we will set a date seven days
    out for an electronic meeting.

    If he comes to his senses and does not send an unauthorized contract, my
    request for co-sponsors is removed.

  427. paulie Post author

    Sam Goldstein to LNC:

    The COC recognizes the LNC Chair’s authority to name the Chair of the
    Committee per the Policy Manual. We don’t recognize his ability to
    remove a member from the Committee without our approval and that point
    is currently the subject of a motion before the LNC.

  428. paulie Post author

    Mattson: Nick, have you already sent a signed version to the hotel for
    counter-signature?

    CAH: Tomorrow I intend upon signing the approved version.

    If our Chair acts outside his authority he needs to be removed.

  429. paulie Post author

    CAH: In the case of balance of powers, which is the case here, I believe Ms
    Mattson is correct and Mr Hayes is still on the committee.

    The Chair can unilaterally remove him as chair but not remove from the
    committee.

    If the chair is ruling he can, I appeal the ruling of the chair.

    And while there is an appeal, he cannot be considered to be removed from
    the committee.

  430. Anthony Dlugos

    what’s the theory as to why NIck wants to sign a contract he can cancel?

  431. Anthony Dlugos

    RC writes,

    “I can envisage SC going off-the-rails and embarrassing JJ.”

    I half expect it.

    If he does, it’s on JJ. She had her chance on Saturday night to step forward and insist on who she wanted as the v.p. nominee. She was effectively voted the leader of the party at that point. Time to lead.

  432. paulie Post author

    what’s the theory as to why NIck wants to sign a contract he can cancel?

    His detractors seem to think he plans to cancel it because he opposes an in-person convention. And I guess that he plans to sign it to prevent them from executing their competing contract, which they are voting to let other LNC officers sign.

  433. paulie Post author

    CAH to LNC:

    Voting has ENDED for the email ballot 200524-1 Authorize alternate signers
    to Orlando contract

    All names are listed alphabetically by surname.

    Motion: *Move to authorize any Party officer to execute the Orlando
    convention contract recommended by the Convention Oversight Committee.*

    Co-Sponsors: *Bilyeu, Goldstein, Harlos, Longstreth, Mattson, Merced,
    Nekhaila, Phillips, Smith*

    Threshold Required: Simple Majority

    Voting “aye”: Bilyeu, Bishop-Henchman, Goldstein, Harlos, Hewitt, Lark,
    Longstreth, Mattson, Merced, Nekhaila, Phillips, Smith

    Voting “nay”: O’Donnell

    Express Abstention: None

    No Vote Cast: Hagan, Redpath, Sarwark, Van Horn

    With a final vote tally of 12-1-0-4 the motion PASSED.

    You can view the Secretary’s manual tally of votes here:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VntkXkkuQouUiWbt9bnI_TjSMKDiTaDDpvsYtTmJdhE/edit#gid=1074776901Votes
    are noted with a link to the actual ballot cast for verification.

  434. paulie Post author

    Dear All,

    I have never in my life executed a contract in bad faith and will not be
    starting today with the contract that will be executed with the Rosen Hotel
    Group for the second sitting of the convention in Orlando.

    I appreciate the openness and candor with which certain members of the LNC
    have publicly shared their beliefs and opinions about myself, special
    counsel, and Libertarian Party staff. If nothing else, it’s been
    illuminating.

    See you in Orlando,

    Nick

  435. paulie Post author

    CAH to LNC:

    As per Ballot 200524-1, a contract executed by Mr. Merced and myself was
    transmitted to the hotel.

  436. paulie Post author

    I was unaware that Section 2.04(3) of the Policy Manual allowed such an
    action to be taken in absence of the approval of the Chair and General
    Counsel.

    “The Chair shall approve any contract inexcess of $7,500.

    All contracts of more than one year in duration or for more than $25,000
    shall be reviewed and approved by General Counsel prior to signing by the Ch
    air.”

    -Nick

  437. paulie Post author

    I can envisage SC going off-the-rails and embarrassing JJ.

    Some supporters of the VP as well as the P candidate have expressed embarrassment at some statements or actions of the other, but thus far I’ve seen/heard nothing but good things said about the other by the P and VP candidates themselves.

  438. Anthony Dlugos

    the NPR interview makes me wonder if our prez and vp nominees have had any discussions at all.

    on the other hand, quite entertaining LP convention drama, thanks for the updates.

  439. paulie Post author

    CAH to LNC:

    Our chair decides to wage his public relations war elsewhere. He is
    claiming that the contract signed by Alex and myself is invalid as it is
    not approved by the attorney yet he is submitting one not approved by the
    CoC.

    Let’s parse this out.

    First, general counsel on this very subject made it clear it is not his job
    to approve but to advise. He also made that clear to us personally at the
    last LNC meeting. We received his advise. Counsel keeps having to be
    reminded that he represents the LNC and not our chair. Lastly that section
    applies to signing by the chair in the normal course of business. This was
    removed from the normal course of business by the LNC authorizing the
    signing by other officers with no other conditions as a one-time
    exception to the policy manual which passed 12-1. Overwhelmingly.

    The gamesmanship by the chair is beyond bonds, and he needs to be removed.
    If he signs that contract against the will of both the LNC and CoC, I will
    be making the motion to remove. I was not able to hear it myself, but
    allegedly staff at stand-up today said Nick confirmed with them (and not us
    interestingly) that he will be signing and sending.

  440. NewFederalist

    So… 40 states and DC? Some states with different tickets? Sounds delightful!

  441. paulie Post author

    Vermin Supreme is now running for LP national’s judicial committee as part of a slate with Mike Dixon, Mary Gingell, Barbara Howe, Mary Ruwart, Mark Tuniewicz and Jim Turney.

  442. Jared

    paulie: CAH transparency tutorial

    Great crash course in keeping up with the LNC’s dirty, melodramatic laundry.

  443. paulie Post author

    Posted as an article in 2018, but I’m thinking of posting it again given the drama level on that list right now.

  444. paulie Post author

    The Convention Oversight Committee is looking for individuals to serve on the following panels on June 8th beginning at around 10:00 AM Eastern Time. You must be at the convention to participate on the panel.

    Alternate Voting Panel

    Libertarian Judge’s Panel

    Elected Libertarians Panel

    Women’s Panel

    Education Panel

    Sex Workers Panel

    Criminal Justice Panel

    Borders Panel

    Economics Panel

    Each panel should have 2-3 participants, one of whom will also act as moderator. Each panel session will be about 50 minutes long.

    Please email sam.goldstein@lp.org if you would like to participate.

  445. paulie Post author

    What you will see is that the power to appoint the non-LNC members of the
    Convention Oversight Committee is explicitly granted to the Chair of the
    LNC in the Policy Manual and nobody saw it as controversial at the time,
    including one of the co-sponsors of the appeal from the ruling of the Chair.

    The appeal from the ruling of the Chair is dilatory and contrary to the
    plain reading of the Policy Manual. Mr. Hayes has been removed from the
    Convention Oversight Committee and I have requested the new Chair of the
    Convention Oversight Committee to provide me with their recommendations for
    filling the non-LNC member vacancy after their meeting tonight.

    Yours truly,
    Nick

  446. paulie Post author

    We may be at double paying the Orlando resort, since apparently both the chair and the secretary separately signed slightly different versions of the contract. Hopefully the hotel won’t demand two separate payments for the same convention. Yeah, it’s a mess.

  447. Anthony Dlugos

    yea, I can’t see a hotel trying that, given the circumstances.

    I mean, Nick must REALLY be opposed to an in-person convention to go through all this.

    I mean, wow.

  448. paulie Post author

    He has said he plans to attend, but not to chair. Honestly, I’m not sure what he’s trying to do. Maybe just make it easier to back out if the shutdowns get worse again?

  449. Anthony Dlugos

    “Maybe just make it easier to back out if the shutdowns get worse again?”

    that actually seems to be the most plausible explanation.

  450. paulie Post author

    Shutdowns, riots, martial law…we’re living in interesting times. It takes several days for an LNC vote. Circumstances may require a quicker operating timeframe.

  451. paulie Post author

    Sam Goldstein shared a link.
    Admin · Just now
    Delegates, alternates and attendees!
    The hotel reservation link is finally up and running. Room rates are $109.00 per night plus government theft.
    Please go to the link below to make your reservation. I am looking forward to meeting each of you at Orlando July 8-12.
    Sam Goldstein
    Convention Oversight Committee
    https://tinyurl.com/LNC-2020

  452. paulie Post author

    Mattson to LNC:

    I think the LNC needs to know about something that happened during the COC
    meeting tonight.

    The LNC is currently in the middle of email ballot votes, one of which
    would determine whether Daniel Hayes is still a member of the COC, and
    another of which would change the policy to transfer Mr. Sarwark’s
    COC-related powers to the LNC.

    The new COC chair is being heavily pressured by the LNC chair, and I’m sure
    that after seeing Mr. Sarwark remove the prior COC chair, Ms. Ryan feels
    her head could also be on the chopping block if she does not comply with
    Mr. Sarwark’s demands.

    Tonight Ms. Ryan asked the COC members to recommend someone to fill the
    vacancy. She did say she didn’t want to bring it up, but she has been
    painted into a corner and ordered by the LNC chair to do it.

    Several of us explained that we do not intend to act until the LNC email
    ballots play out. I moved to postpone the matter until next week’s
    meeting, but because of Mr. Sarwark’s pressure on Ms. Ryan she said she had
    to disallow my motion because she’s been ordered by Nick to get it done.
    Ultimately the COC refused to act under such improper influence by Mr.
    Sarwark.

    The LNC policy change about COC appointments is poised to pass, and Mr.
    Sarwark apparently wants very much to exercise his power before the LNC
    reclaims it.

    Only because the majority of us on the COC were appointed by the LNC are we
    able to stand up to Mr. Sarwark’s effort. He is in no position to threaten
    us. No committee chair should should be made to feel that if she doesn’t
    disallow legitimate motions, she will likely be removed from her position.
    Ms. Ryan must not be subjected to these intimidation tactics.

  453. paulie Post author

    Dear All,

    With the removal of Mr. Hayes from the Convention Oversight Committee,
    there is a vacancy that is to be filled by the Chair.

    I requested that the new Chair of the Convention Oversight Committee
    provide their recommendation to me to fill the vacancy following their
    weekly meeting last night. It is my understanding that the majority of the
    Convention Oversight Committee chose not to make any recommendation.

    In absence of a recommendation from the Convention Oversight Committee, I
    am appointing former LNC Chair, elected Libertarian, and Floridian, Jim
    Turney to fill the vacant position on the Convention Oversight Committee.
    Jim works well with others, has organized many successful conventions, and
    lives just down the road from Orlando.

    Please join me in welcoming Mr. Turney to the Convention Oversight
    Committee.

    Yours truly,
    Nick

  454. paulie Post author

    CAH replies:

    It is my understanding that they postponed and fully intend upon making a
    recommendation. There is no requirement that they do so at your command.

    This appointment further is premature as there is a pending appeal.

    It is unfortunate that you had to drag such a nice man into this dispute
    but this appointment is invalid at this time.

  455. Jared

    Question for level-headed LP insiders:

    Is Sarwark half the monstrous tyrant that certain outspoken committee members are making him out to be, or does an out-of-bounds radical faction simply not like the decisions he has made within his authority as chair and want to oust him so they can have their way in Orlando?

    My impressions are based for the most part on the personalities involved, but I’m having trouble as an outsider grasping the cosmic significance of an in-person meeting, maybe because I started paying attention to this controversy only after the Zoom colloquium on parliamentary procedure that some, but not all, are calling a convention. I find it entirely fatuous for any business or non-profit to publish its internal emails, but hey, might as well grab some popcorn and keep hitting that F5 key.

  456. paulie Post author

    Question for level-headed LP insiders

    I doubt I qualify as either one but will attempt to share my perspective anyway.

    Is Sarwark half the monstrous tyrant that certain outspoken committee members are making him out to be, or does an out-of-bounds radical faction simply not like the decisions he has made within his authority as chair and want to oust him so they can have their way in Orlando?

    I don’t think either one is the case completely, but both have some fire to the smoke. Nick is generally a great guy and activist and has IMO been the best national chair in at least the last couple of decades, and possibly ever. But 6 years trying to herd the intensely fractuous and contentious LNC is enough to make anyone loopy and punchy, especially as a lame duck chair whose term has already been extended past its normally scheduled expiration last month. Nick appears to me to be badly in need of a break from the LNC. He has IMO basically acknowledged that by not running again and by saying he won’t chair the meeting in Orlando.

    On the other hand the people on the other side from him on this, some of them his former close friends and allies, and who have clashed amongst themselves on many things in the past, are also by and large great people and activists who are trying to do what they believe is best for the party. Maybe some of them are trying to take advantage of who is more or less likely to show up in person vs online, but I don’t believe that is the primary motivation for most of them.

    A lot of people on all sides is allowing a lot of frustration get to them. Some of it has been building for years. Some of it is because a lot of people worked very hard on the original convention plans as well as replacement plans, and have faced a lot of strongly worded criticism and questions from people on one side or another. Some of it is for the reasons people in the larger world are so frustrated right now – losing jobs, losing businesses, losing income or having to work insanely long hours, often in very dangerous and physically and emotionally demanding circumstances; being cooped up for weeks or months on end, alone or with a small group of people experiencing rising tensions; inability to go about daily lives and engage many in normal activities due to closures, and so on.

    having trouble as an outsider grasping the cosmic significance of an in-person meeting

    Some people believe it is important for comraderie, party finances, media coverage, bylaws reasons, potential lawsuits or loss of ballot access if it’s not in person, not having state parties bail due to their own preferences, or because of the challenges of managing the speaker queue and motions online, among other reasons. Other people oppose because of health risks to themselves or others, bad optics, financial or job related difficulties for many members to attend right now, and so on. It’s not an easy issue to resolve and I don’t envy anyone being in a decisionmaking position about it.

    I think we pulled off the presidential nomination pretty well considering we have never done anything like that on that scale of participation or time involved on zoom, but then I did not feel a need to speak to or present any motions. Much of the dissatisfaction came from people who felt that was not well managed. A presidential nomination, however, if much easier than platform and bylaws debates, or even than electing the whole LNC and JC. I could see that taking a lot longer than a weekend on zoom and many more people being frustrated if we did that.

    I find it entirely fatuous for any business or non-profit to publish its internal emails, but hey, might as well grab some popcorn and keep hitting that F5 key.

    I think it’s a good idea for many reasons discussed in past IPR threads at length. For one thing the suspicion, and perhaps reality, of shady backroom dealings thrives far more when interested party members are in the dark. Even if there’s little or nothing to the suspicions, they thrive and feed on themselves in the absence of sunshine. That’s one reason we often advocate for transparency in government, and some of us feel we should model that in our own internal governance. It’s also really helpful to anyone considering running for LNC, now or in the future, to learn some of what they would be signing up for. There are other reasons but that’s a good start.

  457. paulie Post author

    Mr. Sarwark, did you have a staff member to sign the unauthorized contract,
    so that what you wrote would be technically correct, that YOU would not
    sign a contract in bad faith? I ask because I’ve seen an email from a
    staff member who seems to say that he signed it, which of course is also
    not authorized.

    -Alicia

  458. paulie Post author

    [Lnc-business] Request for co-sponsors Motion to Suspend Chair
    Caryn Ann Harlos carynannharlos at gmail.com

    This is not a motion I would typically make unless I was positive it would
    win. It is beyond that point, and it is a matter of fundamental principles
    that we be called upon to show who stands for these abuses of power or who
    does not. I learned today that behind the LNC’s back, either the chair
    or staff signed the unauthorized contract. Then there was the interference
    with the convention committee last night. Those are the final straws.

    So that someone does not complain this request is deficient, here is the
    time and date I propose for the meeting to hear this. Enough is enough.
    Or do you all want to spend the next six weeks waiting for the chair to
    make his next shady move and we have to neutralize.

    I have had enough.
    Libertarian Party is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.

    Topic: LNC Meeting
    Time: Jun 11, 2020 08:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

  459. paulie Post author

    Mattson: Also, why did staunch Sarwark supporters on Facebook seem to know which
    version had been countersigned 2 hours before even the COC had received a
    copy? We were being told that nobody had it yet. But someone did have it
    and had time to share it with social media warriors.

    -Alicia

  460. paulie Post author

    CAH:
    And I find out Oliver Hall was in on this plan. Oliver represents the
    LNC. Not the chair. This explicitly goes against the LNC.

  461. paulie Post author

    Sarwark:

    Dear All,

    When Bill Hall resigned in 2009 after 20 years as General Counsel to the
    Libertarian National Committee, he included the following admonition in his
    resignation letter to the LNC about how they should behave toward their new
    counsel.

    “I urge you to take care with your new general counsel to avoid trying to
    embroil him or her in your latest personal political vendetta. Treat him or
    her with respect. Don’t assume he or she is one of the bad guys, and attack
    him or her, just because he or she was asked to and gives legal advice that
    might adversely impact your personal political advantage.

    Your general counsel is there to give advice on legal risks. It is okay to
    listen to your general counsel’s advice, consider the facts as you know
    them, and in good faith decide to ignore that advice in proceeding to act,
    because you believe that the political good to be advanced by taking action
    outweighs the legal risks of doing so. However, if you make a habit of
    publicly questioning the accuracy of your general counsel’s legal advice,
    and disparaging his or her opinion, don’t be surprised if he or she decides
    that the less-than-market and often-late pay for acting as your general
    counsel doesn’t merit the unpleasantness and liability risk of doing so.”

    Yours in liberty,
    Nick

  462. Anthony Dlugos

    good rundown at 14:01, paulie.

    helps me see both sides.

    it also makes me realize there’s no damn way I would run for any party office of any kind.

  463. paulie Post author

    it also makes me realize there’s no damn way I would run for any party office of any kind.

    Yeah, I once made the mistake of accepting a request to serve as an LNC alternate (2012-4) and running very unsuccessfully for at large. That’s not happening again. Done at the state level as of this year too. It’s purely rank and file for me now.

  464. paulie Post author

    wait..what? Alex is quitting?

    No, just saying he won’t take sides in the current drama and arguments. He will preside in Orlando and not run again, at least this time, is my understanding.

  465. Anthony Dlugos

    I also know I’m an outlier philosophy-wise I’d have close to zero chance of getting elected and even less than zero getting anything I see as valuable accomplished. It would be pointless.

  466. Jared

    Thank you for such a detailed explanation, Paulie.

    “I think it’s a good idea for many reasons discussed in past IPR threads at length. For one thing the suspicion, and perhaps reality, of shady backroom dealings thrives far more when interested party members are in the dark. Even if there’s little or nothing to the suspicions, they thrive and feed on themselves in the absence of sunshine. That’s one reason we often advocate for transparency in government, and some of us feel we should model that in our own internal governance. It’s also really helpful to anyone considering running for LNC, now or in the future, to learn some of what they would be signing up for. There are other reasons but that’s a good start.”

    Oh, I understand the rationale for it, but I still think it’s a pretty horrible idea. Seems like more like a platform for LNC members to posture, flex, and try to win sympathy and support during conflicts such as these. I imagine they just communicate by private email if they don’t want other officers or interested parties to know what they’re up to. So it appears to be well-intentioned, ultimately ineffective transparency theater that just ends up airing petty squabbles and other dirty laundry (that all organizations have, but most choose not to share with the public). A lot of nonprofits are committed to transparency and open communication. If you know any that go so far as to publish their in-house emails, I’d be interested to learn more.

  467. paulie Post author

    I understand the arguments for and against..I was one of the people who pushed for making it public before and during my time on the LNC. Personally I like knowing what my representatives are up to. Congress has floor debates and many committee hearings on CSPAN and may town councils, county commissions and other organizations have emails and other proceedings subject to Sunshine Acts.

  468. Anthony Dlugos

    “Oddly I find myself in the same boat.”

    well, we both think the party is making the same mistake and we have the same target audience, just different messages.

    So maybe not so odd.

  469. George Phillies

    For those interested in the Libertarian National Committee, Caryn Anne Harlos just put forth a motion to impeach and remove (“suspend” is the bylaws phrase) Nick Sarwark as LNC chair. The motion already has co-sponsors. Amusingly, the motion does not yet have a text.

  470. Anthony Dlugos

    Remove on what grounds? Has he actually done anything against the bylaws?

    Also, does that require just a simple majority?

  471. paulie Post author

    The motion is to have a meeting Jun 11 to consider such a motion. Motions can be offered during the meeting. They need 6 sponsors to have a vote on having the meeting. Iirc it’s simple majority to call the meeting and 3/4 to actually remove. I could be wrong.

  472. paulie Post author

    Motion to have a meeting now has enough sponsors to proceed, although the date and time are currently up in the air.

  473. paulie Post author

    Remove on what grounds?

    I’ve posted a sampling of the verbal battles that have led to this point above. Among other things there is a dispute about him signing a different version of the hotel contract for Orlando than the one approved by the COC while the LNC was holding a vote which passed to allow other officers to sign the COC’s preferred contract, and removing former chair Daniel Hayes from the COC and replacing him while the LNC was in the middle of voting to appeal his ruling that he could do that at all. There’s much more but those are the recent highlights. Scroll up for some of the much more, or visit the LNC list yourself.

    Has he actually done anything against the bylaws?

    That’s a topic of much debate. There might be a judicial committee appeal if the votes are there for removal, which there may not be. Or perhaps a judicial appeal of some of his actions, or who knows what. It might wait to see if an undisputed judicial committee is elected in Orlando. Or not.

  474. ATBAFT

    This might be entertaining to watch with a big bowl of popcorn, except these shenanigans could well ruin any momentum the Party hopes to generate in 2020.
    A few thoughts: how many contracts arrived at Rosen Hotel HQ? If more than one, Rosen management will be trying to figure out just whom their client is. If just one contract, then Rosen is entitled to act on the terms and accept that whomever signed it had the authority to do so. Should Rosen later not get paid in full for whatever it did under the terms of the contract, Rosen will come looking for someone to sue. LNC members might want to ask themselves if they are ready to be personally liable if it turns out Rosen’s discovery process turns up an alleged intent to defraud Rosen because the LNC failed to follow its own procedures in allowing an unauthorized contract to be signed. The “cure” would be for the Party to then pay Rosen’s demands or face a nasty, long and public lawsuit that could, at the least, embroil the Party’s officers in unwanted personal legal measures. This isn’t just shits and giggles, folks.

  475. paulie Post author

    From what I have gathered, Rosen has signed the contract favored by Nick Sarwark, party counsel Oliver Hall, at least some LPHQ staff and (I think) the new COC chair, BetteRose Ryan. Other LNC and COC members are unhappy, to say the least. If I misunderstood any of that, someone please let me know.

  476. George Phillies

    The sponsors for the Sarwark removal meeting are Goldstein, Harlos, Mattson, Phillips, Smith, and Longstreth.

    When you vote for new LNC members, these are people to De-elect.

  477. paulie Post author

    Caryn Ann Harlos, Libertarian Party LNC Secretary: Paulie Cannoli I am not participating in the discussion on social media or blogs but I ask that you pass along my invitation to call me to anyone who wishes to discuss.

    561-523-2250

  478. paulie Post author

    Caryn Ann Harlos, Libertarian Party LNC Secretary: And here is a statement as to what is wrong with the party. When people who have had no issue with someone for two years, and one thing they disagree with, they immediately try to say don’t re-elect them, that is shitty. And that is a far greater problem in this party. No wonder people don’t want to serve. Now my position is that I am not here to get re-elected, but to do the job I currently have (only slimy politicians make decisions based upon whether it hurts or helps their re-election chances rather than on what their principles say is right). But when I see people talking like that, taking for granted all the good things people have done and the thousands of hours and dollars they poured in to do that, I think much less of them and think they need to learn how to human better.

    Don’t bother to tell me if I don’t do things your way you won’t vote for me. That is a bribe. Talk to me rationally and respectfully, and I you, and we try to persuade each other in good faith. My principles are not for sale for a vote. Save the bullying for someone who lives for titles. I do not.

  479. paulie Post author

    New time for the meeting where they will vote on removing Nick, if they get a majority vote to hold the meeting:

    Libertarian Party is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.

    Topic: LNC Meeting
    Time: Jun 13, 2020 04:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

    Join Zoom Meeting
    https://us02web.zoom.us/j/82741013890

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