The Libertarian presidential nomination meeting has started. The day 1 broadcast is here:
Subsequent days will have their own broadcast at https://www.youtube.com/user/LibertarianParty
Credentials and adoption of agenda is tonight and the rest of the schedule is at https://lnc2020.com/convention/schedule/
This thread is for open discussion by delegates and non-delegates alike. I hope we’ll get some liveblogging but don’t anticipate having much time for it myself.
I’m gonna predict a Hornberger/Sharpe ticket
I predict Jo/Sharpe.
Sharpe should drop out if Bumper is the nominee. Too toxic.
agreed, RC.
If I’m Sharpe, I’m dropping out unless its Gray or Jorgensen. Maybe Monds.
Someone should ask Bumper about private nukes:
https://reason.com/2020/05/22/that-time-the-libertarian-party-debated-the-private-ownership-of-nuclear-weapons/?fbclid=IwAR1_GmHejeyZmhlp_6xcL5VGxsrpAGUhrwDs4au4crqJ43g_wnAMEpp1G0o
oh dear god, I can only imagine his philosophical contortions responding to that question.
Somebody please either make a Zoom add-on or a whole new videoconferencing service that has parliamentary procedure buttons people can push and keeps track of the order in which people raised their hands etc.
So far it has been… Interesting…
2 Requests: 1 to vacate the Chair, and one to basically vacate the convention secretary.
And we still don’t know what exactly will be done this weekend, and that may depend on who shows up from home every day.
This will be Interesting on one level at least…
Those of you causing trouble at the convention, stop it!
We have to select our presidential and vice-presidential candidate now not in August or September. Time is short! We have a worldwide pandemic. States are on lockdown, the President has declared a national emergency, . . . How can we meet in Orlando or anywhere else? How? Explain it.
+1, Jose C.
Some of these delegates don’t give a damn about ballot access this cycle. Illinois has their automatically this cycle from our lawsuit, so potentially kicking the can for further ratification in July is complete bullshit. Illinois’ filing deadline was pushed three weeks earlier from our July 31-August 7 deadline per the lawsuit to July 13-20.
This would endanger our ticket four days before the first day of filing, even with the mandate of zero signature requirement.
So Going on 3 hours, and They don’t even HAVE an Agenda for this meeting?
And they said Hot Dogs were hard to make…
They may end up with NOTA by default…
Kudos to Sarwark for not saying “F**k this S**tshow” and walking away. But then the night is still early.
@Losty only because of some obstructionists appealing the ruling of the chair over arbitrary bullshit.
@ATBAFT agreed
I think whenever they do it, they need to move to re-elect Nick by acclamation….
Just to see his internet blow up, or the hall (Signs point to his internet…)
If the convention cannot decide this weekend, states that need to do so should simply choose their own candidate and put her, him, or it on the ballot.
almost done!
Sounds likely.
Poor Nick. There’s always a group in the LP looking to stroke their own egos with frivolous shit. I tip my hat to Nick.
Nick did great.
Why do you hate him so much?
Agreed.
#FreeNickSarwark
Jeez, that was brutal. I’ve never been more impressed with Sarwark.
Interesting that of the main five presidential candidates (Jorgensen, Supreme, Hornberger, Gray, and Monds), only Hornberger lacks a wikipedia page.
Pretty sure I saw one not long ago. Deleted?
On deck today, presidential nominations. Also, highly likely, attempts to amend the agenda. The latter will probably come first.
For anyone who hasn’t read it yet, this is very good:
https://thelibertarianrepublic.com/politics-is-a-joke-but-what-if-the-libertarian-party-was-in-on-it/
https://reason.com/2020/05/23/we-watched-the-libertarian-party-vice-presidential-debate-so-you-didnt-have-to/
[Lnc-business] Fwd: Can ANYONE tell me whether my votes are being counted? (I’m sending them to Mimi, my delegation chair, via email) Alicia Mattson forwardin to LNC list from Starchild:
http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business/2020/057643.html
Via FB: Thomas L. Knapp
27 mins
My top pick for the LP’s presidential nomination is Jacob Hornberger. And I’m sure he’ll receive sufficient delegate tokens to be placed in nomination. Ditto my second choice from the current field, Vermin Supreme.
So, if I was a delegate instead of an alternate, I’d cast both my presidential and vice presidential nomination tokens for Nicholas J. Sarwark.
This convention marks the end of Nick’s tenure as chair of the party, so presumably he would have some time freed up to campaign, and he’s at LEAST as good as any of the other choices for either nomination, better than most of them, and possibly better than any of them.
If YOU are a delegate, I encourage similar thinking on your part.
Me: Not sure what the point would be for president. I expect if Nick got enough tokens to be nominated he would just decline the nomination. There are rumors he would accept for VP, but I don’t think that would be appropriate for an immediately outgoing chair, although I think he would make a good candidate otherwise.
Knapp: Nick would accept the presidential nomination, or the vice-presidential nomination.
I am stating the above as fact. I am not going to publicly offer any evidence for it. Believe it or not, your choice.
Me (separate response to original): There are only two ways I could see this going. Either people would vote for someone who is not their choice, thinking their choice is safe, and enough people would do that so what they thought was safe turns out not to be. Or very few people do this and their sympathy vote does not get enough tokens for nomination. It’s possible to stumble on a happy medium by dumb luck but highly unlikely. I know of no way of knowing who got how many tokens before it’s too late to vote.
Currently, LNC elections are not scheduled til July. That could change. Not a fatal problem to this scheme, since if Nick were the presidential or VP candidate he could let Alex finish out the rest of the chair term, but unless the agenda is amended this online portion of the convention is not the end of the term Nick ran for and was elected to. Which puts any arguments he plans to make today for said amendment of the agenda in a different light, and not a very good one IMO.
I’ve removed myself from my state delegation chat, which was keeping me constantly busy during last night’s meeting, so should have more time to help liveblog today and tomorrow. Would still appreciate some help with that though.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/189510455174837/permalink/671732316952646/
Joe Bishop-Henchman
Thank you Mr. Joe McHugh for the robo wake up call
Jared Hall: That was a NAP violation
Tim Hagan: His robocall called me at 6:40 am! Does he know about Time Zones?
Darryl Perry: in his defense, neither does Trump
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-reminded-of-different-time-zones-calling-world-leaders-2018-8
Me: It will help more delegates make the start of the meeting, LOL
Darryl W. Perry: I ignored it, and listened to the message from the dude who didn’t attend any debates, or do anything before spamming our emails yesterday & Calling us this morning
Rebecca Lau: I saw him speak at the LPPA convention but he didn’t qualify for the debate
Suzi Eltz: #IGotMine
Me:
Joe Bishop-Henchman
Admin · 7 mins
Vice Presidential nomination tokens are out, due by 3pm ET today.
And a reminder presidential tokens due in 46 minutes (11am ET).
Joe Buchman: Election buddy is reporting the token results.
Me: Thanks, I did not know that. How would I find that at election buddy to keep a running count?
Me 2: Found it
https://secure.electionbuddy.com/results/YUUL3NLW3HAP
John Phillips Jr.
For those of you wondering about VP tokens being due by 3 with the possibility of candidates waterfalling:
There is a rule suspension that is normally followed to allow those nominations. Mr. Sarwark explained that last night early.
How does one decipher those token results? Does this mean that there a people writing “Jim” or “Judge” on their tokens?
There are separate lines for first and second name. Scroll down to last name for easier reading.
Meeting has been called to order.
A separate email for VP round 2 has gone out.
Some tabulation time needed, as the computer thinks JO, jo, and Jo are three different people. Agreement of the body that Gray and Grey are the same person may also be needed.
I’m thinking the tellers can figure that out, but we shall see.
Live support for delegates available here:
https://lnc2020.com/support/
YouTube stream for today https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbpNQmiwNJ4
Audacious Caucus endorsed Valerie Sarwark for At Large.
857 delegates credentialed at this time.
Ken Moellman
Admin · 3 mins
DELEGATES — You need to be checked in now for Day 2. The POTUS nominating tokens are already due, and the VPOTUS tokens are out. You’ll see an ElectionBuddy email for each of these 3 things.
There is a tradition of, upon the nomination of a presidential candidate, someone making a motion to convert POTUS tokens to VPOTUS tokens. This failed in 2016 but succeeded in 2008 and 2012. This is usually how POTUS nominees become eligible to be considered for VPOTUS.
Correction, that’s in attendance as of that time. I did not hear the actual number but 7/8 of that number plus 1 is 906. Do the math if you want.
Credentials reported has been accepted.
Motion to remove CAH as convention secretary. I did not catch who made it. Dog barking so I am missing some stuff.
Aaron Starr objects to consideration of that question.
CAH states again she will sign the nomination certificates; her objection was to the LNC doing certain things, not against the delegates doing so. She can provide additional details some time later if she wants when she is not as busy. Obviously not during the convention.
Consideration motion fails. 81% against.
Moving to nominations.
Omar Recuero moves to suspend the rules to amend agenda/
I voted yes.
The vote was worth it.
maybe future leaders will take it as warning against stupid self-involved actions.
Objection to consideration.
Her explanation did not satisfy you?
Recuero motion also fails. 77% opposed.
her actions up until she reversed course and said she would sign didn’t satisfy me.
Fishman: about 35-45 minutes til presidential nomination tokens are finished being tabulated.
That wasn’t exactly what we voted on, but I understand you voting to achieve the effect you wanted rather than offering a separate motion in the interest of time.
yes, thanks for restating my feeling exactly correctly.
At ease for about half an hour to finish collecting and counting tokens.
Oh, maybe I’ll have some intelligent chat here.
I voted no. Per Richard Winger, the certificates are not even really needed. And the whole issue was hashed out on the LNC list. She said then she would sign the certificates but wanted to be able to amend the parts that said convention in physical location. The whole thing was petty and unnecessary and did not rise to necessitating the confusion and chaos that would result from switching convention secretaries midstream. There’s a definite learning curve to that.
Back in order at 11:15 central.
yea, but you understand my reason for the yes vote.
let that be a lesson to the next secretary to just pipe down and do their job.
But technically speaking someone COULD sue LNC and Harlos/Sarwark for signing, including pissed off members and possibly trouble making attorney generals. So I can see why she’d want to cover her ass Also on LNC email list Sarwark said it didn’t matter if she didn’t sign cause… I can’t remember why. But at that point I didn’t look much further.
There’s a segment that won’t stop griping about online not being a “place” with the belief the online convention will keep the LP off the ballot. If these folks are this paranoid, what makes them believe a physical convention can and will take place when FL or anywhere else could use COVID-19 as a pretext to not allow the convention to happen? This has never been addressed as far as I can tell.
“with the belief the online convention will keep the LP off the ballot.”
is that their genuine motivation?
That’s what they say. We can speculate whether it’s the real motivation or not. I suspect a mix of yes and no.
IF you think state law is greater threat than a probably weakening virus, for the summer and especially in florida, and especially because the people and the president are saying ENUFF ALREADY! then you may feel strongly about it. I’m not sure about the former, but definitely believe in the latter.
Sam Goldstein
Admin · 4 mins
For the delegates’ information:
The LNC Chair and the entire LNC are now in possession of the final revision of the contract approved by the hotel and the COC.
The contract is confidential so don’t start asking questions about the details, but you can be assured that this contract is probably more favorable to the LP than any other I’ve seen in my years on the LNC.
The convention hall will be 83k sq ft and meals will have enough room for social distancing. The COC will provide masks for those willing to wear them and will take other measures to make this convention as safe as possible.
that Ned Kelley’s face cracks me up.
Amash clarifies, second hand, that he will not accept nomination.
I don’t have visual on the screen (looking at this one) so if anyone who does wants to post the numbers before they are read out loud please do so.
Tim Hagan, LNC treasurer, in line for a long time. Wonder if he has something important.
Hornberger 218 Jorgensen 193 Supreme 103 Monds 95 Gray 89 Kokesh 58
Vohra and Amash 27 not eligible at this time for nomination speeches.
Behrman 18
Robb 14
Ruff 11
Ardeleneau 9
Cohen 7
Sarwark 6
Sharpe 4
Motion to have P candidates who don’t get it be placed in nomination for VP
30 is the threshold for nomination speeches.
Good. Everyone who really should have made it did, and the gap to the next candidates was large.
http://ballot-access.org/2020/05/23/six-candidates-for-president-at-libertarian-convention-qualify-to-be-nominated/
Six Candidates for President at Libertarian Convention Qualify to be Nominated
Posted on May 23, 2020 by Richard Winger
On Saturday, May 23, the virtual Libertarian national convention process determined that six individuals are eligible to be placed in nomination. The six candidates, and the number of tokens each received, are: Jacob Hornberger 218, Jo Jorgensen 193, Vermin Supreme 103, John Monds 95, Jim Gray 89, and Adam Kokesh 58.
Congressman Justin Amash said on May 23 that he is honored that some delegates want to draft him, but that he would not accept the presidential nomination even if the convention were to draft him.
Arvin has 27, 3 short of 30. That’s not a large gap. Whether you think he should have been nominated is a separate issue.
Talk about herding cats… this is just painful!
Muh, “place”!
51%, but not 2/3. Fails.
Pat Dixon (I think) moves to nominate president and VP by approval voting with 50% plus one threshold, with subsequent rounds if no one gets that threshold using the normal striking procedure for subsequent rounds.
There may not be a great deal we agree on, Though there is a decent amount,
But after this if he does not wish to be a candidate, Nick needs a Very Long Vacation, and an unlimited bar tab paid for by the Party…
I am shocked he is still as sane as he was as he was 3 weeks ago….
Same as in person, so far.
Missed the results on the last motion. What happened with approval voting?
Motion to suspend the rules to nominate Arvin.
211 yes
700 No
Suspending rules to nominate Vohra fails with 84% against.
(On approval voting for p and vp)
Good. I used to be for it, but it’s been a disaster in LNC and JC elections.
Motion to suspend the rules to allow Behrman to be nominated.
Behrman fails with 75% against. Notably, even though Vohra got more tokens than Behrman, more people opposed suspending the rules to allow Vohra to be considered.
Recuero moves to suspend rules to allow Souraya Faas to be nominated.
” Good. Everyone who really should have made it did, and the gap to the next candidates was large.
Arvin has 27, 3 short of 30. That’s not a large gap. Whether you think he should have been nominated is a separate issue.”
The gap was a factor of two, which is respectably large.
90% against nomination speeches for Faas.
Move to suspend rules to nominate Ardeleanu.
If Vermin Supreme actually wins the presidential nomination they just gotta let Behrman be his running mate!
Sadly, neither seems likely. But Vermin’s running mate, Spike Cohen, does seem to have a good shot at VP.
Ardeleanu motion fails with 84% opposed.
Gizzareli moves to suspend rules to give candidates who got 9 or more tokens to get a 3 minute speech.
Well, that is kind of surprising from Sharpe.
This is painful. Your friends didn’t get the necessary tokens. Accept and move on.
Can Joe Exotic be nominated for VP still?
Actually, that ruins my prediction of Jo/Sharpe.
Gizzarelli motion fails 621-227
Motion to suspend the rules to allow Sam Robb to be nominated for POTUS.
Anyone for Bill Weld?
Gary Johnson?
The Ghost of Tom Joad?
Betelgeuse?
Motion to Allow Boos???
Really???
If you’re going to make mockery of this process at least put up for vote someone like Hank the Angry Drunken Dwarf or Eric the Midget.
Pretty sure he did not get enough tokens for that, although I have not seen the running results link (anyone have it handy?). The vote is still open, and one of these suspend the rules motions would be in order if he is in fact qualified.
Robb fails with 88%.
Richard Fast moves to suspend the rules to allow Kim Ruff to be nominated. Sarwark rules it dilatory.
Starr moves to close nominations.
Sarwark rules motion to place Jedi Hill in nomination is dilatory.
But he allows nominating himself to go to forward. IMO chair was out of order in ruling on that at all. Should have turned over the gavel to Alex on that one.
Sarwark clarifies he will accept nomination if the motion passes.
76% vote against considering Sarwark.
Nominations closed, pending points of order.
Well there you have it!
Why are the requests to nominate Ruff and Hill dilatory but not the request for Sarwark? Not the best move unless I missed reasons why the previous were ruled dilatory.
Also a bad look considering he ruled some of these motions dilatory and others not.
Agreed, and especially improper in that he did not turn the gavel over on himself.
Sarwark moves 1 minute speeches at 15 tokens or more dilatory as being too similar to the motion that failed by a large margin earlier.
Dilatory motion to nominate flaming meteor for president.
Nominations closed. Just the 6 that got enough tokens, none of the motions to add more passed.
Dan “Taxation Is Theft” Behrman for President 2020
5 mins
I did not make the ballot for the LP POTUS Nomination. I am changing my campaign affiliation to independent and will continue this race until the general election. I endorse Vermin Supreme for President for the Libertarian nomination as worthy opponents in the general election.
Same here.
Drat!
Avens O’Brien:
I’m honored to be giving a nominating speech for Vermin Supreme for President at the convention today.
I think he is a radical choice: he & his VP will offer a campaign in alignment with our platform, and his VP has particular command of our principles that will present a radical option to Americans.
I think he is a pragmatic choice: it is pragmatic to recognize none of our candidates are going to win, and that our chance is to reach millions of Americans with a libertarian message to move the Overton Window with a message of hope and empowerment. Vermin will reach more than any other candidate.
I think he is the best choice: for any of the reasons I list in this article.
https://thelibertarianrepublic.com/politics-is-a-joke-but-what-if-the-libertarian-party-was-in-on-it/
I ask for delegates to consider something new, and give the major parties the boot.
Joe Bishop-Henchman
Admin · Just now
Order of presidential nomination speeches (each gets a maximum of 16 minutes of floor time, however they want to divvy it up):
Monds
Kokesh
Jorgensen
Hornberger
Gray
Supreme
At ease til 1:15 central, then speeches.
unsurprising petulant behavior from self-involved Behrman.
Wow, you can see who the social misfits are. These contrarians who waste everyone’s time to nominate someone, even though everyone is sick of it dragging on, are the same people who make their local city council and school board members go down a different aisle if they see them in a grocery store.
Their intent is to get attention for themselves by making everyone mad. It’s their way of feeling like they are making a difference in the world. Pathetic.
I guess I’ll switch my prediction to Jo/Spike.
To which comment or thing are you referring?
Same, unless it’s one of the other presidential candidates who does not get it such as Monds or Hornberger.
I was thinking hornberger, but I figured a guy like that wouldn’t deign to be second fiddle.
I’d prefer Jo/Monds. But I just surmised that that Vermin supporters would pull an “Anyone But Weld” type tactic and rally support behind Spike as a consolation prize.
I’m somewhat surprised Shape didn’t wait to see who won the Prez nomination.
Via Montoni on FB:
Agreed on both counts.
Not quite the same dynamic. There is no VP candidate with the same support OR opposition levels of Weld this time. Even if Supreme delegates were to do that, my guess is there aren’t enough to get Spike in, unless a lot of other delegates agree and join in. We shall see.
Drat!
To which comment or thing are you referring?
My dream ticket of the Mad Hatters going down the drain!
I would like to see Jorgensen/Hornberger myself but I don’t see much chance of that happening. Monds would be fine, too.
Vohra endorses Kokesh. Speeches starting momentarily. Ruff endorses Vermin.
I predict the ticket will be Jorgensen/Sarwark.
My second guess would be Jorgensen/Monds.
16 minutes for speeches for each of the 6 candidates being nominated.
Vohra’s thoughts on the process so far:
https://www.facebook.com/arvin.vohra.9/videos/3245003938864410/
Cynthia McKinney endorses Kokesh.
Monds speeches starting next.
“Not quite the same dynamic. There is no VP candidate with the same support OR opposition levels of Weld this time. Even if Supreme delegates were to do that, my guess is there aren’t enough to get Spike in, unless a lot of other delegates agree and join in. We shall see.”
you’re right, not quite the same. I couldn’t think of a closer analogy.
and I did contemplate your second sentence…is there enough support to get Spike in? I factored in that I thought he sounded articulate during the debate,. Then I thought there would be enough sentiment to choose someone who actually ran for vice president and things would overall break his way.
But it was a toss-up in my mind…Sharpe backing out makes both votes potentially quite interesting when the horse-trading begins.
Monds nominators: his daughter (I think), Chase Oliver, Paige Sexton and himself.
Not impossible, but improper.
Confirmed.
Please have them confirm that NOTA is on the ballot.
It would be interesting to see how many votes they get now that many smaller candidates have not qualified…
Sarwark’s dreams of Prez/VP fame and fortune dashed… for now… preferably forever.
Hey, have I NOT posted this here? First 20 minutes are dynamite… lots of fun stuff throughout the rest and I rarely can stand watching youtube videos that are just fun, as well as political…
https://www.facebook.com/DnDliberty/videos/285636402457480/UzpfSTEwMDA0NTU3ODA3NzM4ODpWSzo2NzUxNjc3OTMwNTM1MjA/
Chase Oliver did a good job speaking for Monds.
After Gray gets bounced, I think he’s gonna be my second pick.
NOTA is always automatically on the ballot, but did not get 30 tokens to get nomination speeches.
Not yet. Given how things have gone he will probably rule it in order to nominate him for VP and will accept. Remains to be seen if delegates will go for that.
NOTA is always confirmed on LP ballots. Delegates already know this. Sarwark has already mentioned it this morning.
Kokesh speeches up next.
Kokesh presentation will be a video, no additional speakers.
Technical problems with the sound on the video.
Video is finally working, with crappy sound. Gizarelli speaking via pre-recorded video.
Someone I did not catch for Kokesh. Then GI Mary Jane (didn’t catch her real name) for Kokesh.
Chris Cole for Kokesh
Anthony Dlugos: I’m somewhat surprised Shape didn’t wait to see who won the Prez nomination.
I assume Sharpe hopes that his statement will influence people to vote for Gray.
Marcus Pulis for Kokesh. The video and audio are out of sync.
Mrs. Kokesh
Sorry, a bit out of the loop on this: Why did Jorgensen essentially vanish from LP electoral politics for 24 years and then decide to run for president? Where was she in ‘00, ‘04, ‘08, etc?
“I assume Sharpe hopes that his statement will influence people to vote for Gray.”
ok, fair point.
Ms. Kokesh for whatever she wants!
Kokesh for himself.
Kokesh switches VP endorsement from McAfee to Sharpe. I guess he did not receive the memo that Sharpe would only run with Gray.
yea, he can forget Sharpe running with him.
Why is McAfee — arguably the highest-profile person in the race — running for VP, not president?
because he’s a crazy man?
He ran for both.
Jorgensen: Steve Dasbach, Elizabeth Brierly, Sam Robb, herself… I missed a couple
Darryl Perry
Darryl Perry for Jorgensen.
It’s really not “our” platform, DWP. It’s a kluge.
Laura Ebke for Jorgensen
Ethan Owens: “Kokesh sitting and watching his own self nominate himself is the cringieat thing I have ever seen”
yes. it was.
that guy might flame out spectacularly at some point.
Denmark? Really?
yea, don’t know what that was about.
Libertarian Party Millennial Caucus
32 mins
POTUS/VP endorsements:
POTUS: Vermin Supreme for President
VP: Tie between Spike Cohen and Ken Armstrong (membership opted to halt balloting after 10 rounds after it was revealed further rounds would not change)
Posted in a private group so I won’t say where or by whom:
Good morning everyone. Let’s make today historic.
VERMIN SUPREME
NOT A RA(P/C)IST!
Posted in a private group so I won’t say where or by whom:
Kokesh may or may not be jerking it while watching himself talk right now.
Hornberger speeches are up next.
Brierly for Jorgensen first. She had technical issues.
“Kokesh may or may not be jerking it while watching himself talk right now.”
lol
OK, AK47…that seals it…
@BAN: Michigan Voter on May 23, 2020 at 11:17 am said:
Cynthia McKinney is a Libertarian and Jesse Ventura is a Green. What a world!
I think Kokesh will get more than 47 votes. Or did you mean something else?
At ease for 15 min. Sarwark said take Laura Valle of speakers list. Was she speaking for Jorgensen, or what?
Brierly said that Jo’s favorite weapon is an AK 47
Elinor Swanson
7 mins
As a counterpoint to the last post – I would very happily support Monds. Monds is just so inspiring, and I know he would reach people we usually wouldn’t, inspiring them to reconsider their thoughts about economic liberty. Imagining people trying to criticize him for his commitment and dedication to his family, homeschooling his children so well that his 19yo is a senior in college – I know he would come out on top! He is a really good person, very humble, and someone I would be very proud to support.
I am warming to him as a candidate, no doubt about it.
as some part of the ticket.
Sounds like there’s still a chance to nominate Exotic.
VP ballots Completed at 3p https://secure.electionbuddy.com/results/PN2LWU883XZX
May be reopened. Not sure what they did with the first and second ballot having gone out.
Trying to resolve technical issues to connect Hornberger, who is not a delegate.
Solid choice. The PK, from the same manufacturer, is also excellent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPK
Brian Ellison:
This election cycle is going to be conducted almost entirely online. Can we nominate a team who is not technologically illiterate?
Howard Blitz for Hornberger
Perhaps unsurprisingly, I just never got the gun thing.
Angela McArdle for Hornberger
Ever try shooting? Very zen.
This link is for take 2.
More like smash the Overton Window…
Thomas Hill for Hornberger; says Mary Ruwart endorses him. At least I think that’s him, looks different from the last time I saw him.
Never shot. Owned a rifle for a while, but could not see the point.
Hornberger for himself.
Bumper’s eyes look demonic.
The Kokesh nominator whose name I missed earlier is Zach Parks (I asked Marcus Pulis on FB).
Spencer Dias shared a link.
For those trading real time on Predictit:
Hornberger endorses Cohen for VP
How many more til voting starts?
You have to shoot it to see the point, LOL.
Bumper/Spike …cannot make this up
Sharpe up for Gray, followed by Ryan Jenkins for Gray.
“Hornberger endorses Cohen for VP”
yea, what is up with that?
doesn’t make much sense. Isn’t Spike with Vermin.
Doesn’t make any sort of balancing sense either.
Where does the nickname “Bumper” come from?
Chris Rufer for Gray
Better than Sharpe or Armstrong from the radical libertarian perspective, or whatever you want to call it.
There’s no crying in baseball!
I wonder if someone like Gray could get some McMullin-esque voters from the GOP who might be put off by some of the others…
Gray, Vermin, then vote.
maybe…but again…isn’t Spike with Vermin?
Vermin hasn’t even been eliminated yet!
Lauren Daugherty for Gray. Sharpe speaking repeatedly.
“Hornberger endorses Cohen for VP”
yea, what is up with that.
My guess is that he knows if he doesn’t win on the first or second ballot he’s toast. This might be his way to pick up Vermin Supreme delegates.
Good question. I actually don’t know. Anyone here that does? Carol Moore or Capozzi maybe?
Gary Johnson of NM for Gray
“My guess is that he knows if he doesn’t win on the first or second ballot he’s toast. This might be his way to pick up Vermin Supreme delegates.”
ok, I can buy that.
At least we know, but then at least I think we know, that Hornberger won’t run for VP, but then I didn’t think he would,
Next up Gray for himself.
Hornberger: I got it when I was a baby, it stuck, and all the theories are bad.
Maybe he kept bumping into things and people and whatnot.
Gray hawking his book, podcast, play and his whole family of multimedia products.
GJ’s pic is hilarious
Much like Elizabeth Warren, Gray has a plan for that.
as I have mentioned here before, I think Governor Johnson’s advantage over, say, Gray or Chafee is that he came to politics from the private sector.
I don’t have data to back this up, but I think that first-hand knowledge of government red tape and such came through in his messaging, and helped his case with the more dogmatic elements of the party.
Gray suffers from oral diarrhea
Sharpe is narrating this one like a late night TV infommercial.
I would prefer Judge Napolitano to Judge Gray but hey… that’s just me.
Sharpe says he’ll yield the rest of the time but then goes silent.
Supreme nominators: Avens O’Brien, Spike Cohen, one other ….Hodie Johns?
Avens up first
No alternative party candidate is going to carry any states this November.
Avens O’Brien
2 mins
Re: Zoom
I’m calling him #Hornboomer now
P: That’s on FB, not in her speech.
“I would prefer Judge Napolitano to Judge Gray but hey… that’s just me.”
no way. virulently anti-choice. Worse than Amash.
Reading from off to the side is a bad look.
I’m kinda Pro-Death myself but hey… that’s just me
“I would prefer Judge Napolitano to Judge Gray but hey… that’s just me.”
no way. virulently anti-choice. Worse than Amash.
I’m not watching the video, so I’m missing a lot of your references to video cues. Got the liveblog on my computer screen, other stuff in other tabs, listening to the convention on my phone.
Johns is not bad
Hodey, then Spike for Vermin
Huh, Spike’s pretty good!
Spike actually is pretty good. He’s better than his own top of ticket.
Agreed.
Boot-pilling!
Guesses on how many ballots? I say five.
I think he is a better speaker, and may well make an excellent top of the ticket candidate in the future. But Vermin has built a huge platform through his years of activism and satire, and Spike can’t match that in 3-4-5 months.
I put the over/under at 5.5
My guess is 2-3.
Vermin up now for himself.
Taste the rainbow of leather.
I still prefer Supreme/Exotic, but Spike’s got game.
well, as you know I don’t think either of them are even remotely qualified.
but Spike is more articulate and on point.
And I’m not worried about the platform built so far. That’s small potatoes compared to post nomination activity.
What you start with makes a big difference. Then ramp up from there.
Moderators cuts Supreme off due to time. Votes by delegation next.
Jo really did have the most wide-ranging spread of speakers, philosophically/factionally speaking.
True. Gray’s was like a corporate infomercial.
Ethan Owens:
I’m 100% endorsing Vermin and his team. His team speaking were the only people that made me give two shits about what they had to say. And they were passionate!
What you start with makes a big difference. Then ramp up from there.
Depends. None of our candidates are starting from an exceptionally high point.
And whatever advantage Supreme has there has to be balanced with being the posted child for a Wasted Vote. (In a bad way, IMHO).
Vermin is 58. Thought he’d be older. All 6 are OK boomers except Kokesh.
How does Supreme support himself? Does he have a day job?
I wondered the same thing.
About Kokesh too.
Angela McArdle
Just now
Jacob Hornberger and his nominators were not technologically illiterate – we weren’t given login access to the panelist portion of Zoom until after Nick noted we were missing. Maybe it was just a major but accidental error.
I think Adam has some family money. He also makes a decent living off paid social media, or has at times.
TBH I don’t know if any of Vermin’s gigs are paid. But, I don’t think his lifestyle is very expensive, either. I know he has a lot of friends and supporters, so maybe they help him out. If he has a job I don’t know about, IDK. Savings? Inheritance? Your guess is as good as mine.
“But, I don’t think his lifestyle is very expensive, either.”
that strikes me as quite likely the case.
Also, I am guessing a chunk of Adam’s lifestyle comes under campaign expenses. His reports show most of the donations are coming from himself, but maybe he gets some of that from people who would rather not have those donations registered with the government. Vermin may also be expensing donation money but I have no idea and I am not accusing anyone of anything or providing any insider knowledge, which I don’t have – these are all guesses.
I think Adam was early into crypto and maybe some of his past media gigs were paid even if his current ones are not.
Vermin has a lot he can leverage there, The recent videos are just tip of the iceberg.
as I said, he’s the poster child for Wasted Vote. He’ll shed support…actual polling, voter support…faster than Ronald McDonald at a PETA convention.
To the average person that’s any of our candidates. Vermin would at least be noticed and he’s shown he is good at winning hearts and minds. If he keeps at it and keeps building, could be really awesome in 4 years.
I would predict the opposite. Unfortunately I don’t think we’ll get to find out, at least this time.
I think the reference to boomer was more metaphorical than literally chronological. At 75, Judge Gray is just very slightly older than a Boomer (by one year). Monds may be a little younger than a boomer, not sure.
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › John_Monds
John Monds (born June 17, 1965)
IIRC Boomer usually defined as ending around b. 1961 by most definitions.
Why the hell is voting taking so long? They are using the internet. It should take less than a minute. I don’t get why they are doing it by state.
DRAMA!!
https://www.lp.org/growthelp
Always by state, in person also. States choose their own balloting methods, then those are relayed to the secretary and tallied.
I stand corrected. I thought it was ’44-’64, though. Monds is GenX, then.
For example AL opted out of electionbuddy so I am texting my votes to my delegation chair.
End of boomer generation is not always defined the same. But the start is IIRC universally considered to be 1946 as that was the first babies born after the troops got home from the war.
However, as I said earlier I think the internet boomer meme was what was being referenced more so than literal chronological age.
PF,
You down with Supreme?
As in reference to the baby boom and economic boom post WWII.
@ Michigan Voter
You don’t understand how this works. Just take a break and check for the results later today. If you’re expecting results already you’re in for a long ride. Don’t hold your breath.
He got my first ballot vote. We have hung out a number of times. I wouldn’t say we are close personal friends if that’s what you are asking.
He was one of my roomies at the Orlando convention (2016).
It just seems like a bad look when the party is trying to eliminate the bureaucracy of government, but has such an inefficient bureaucracy to count votes when it could be done in less than a minute.
I wondered about your vote. Thanks.
Explain how this could have been done in less than a minute.
The convention is technically a convention of delegates representing state parties. So it has to be done by state. The other parties, both bigger (D, R) and smaller (G, C) vote by states also.
Electionbuddy, presumably, if we were voting on it like we did on the motions to amend the agenda etc. But that would cut the states out.
What’s up with Sarwark’s mask?
It could be done in less than a minute by having everyone vote the same way they do for motions. It doesn’t have to be done by state. Yes, I know the rules say that, but they can amend their own rules.
Candidate receiving the lowest vote as well as any with less than 5% is eliminated with each succeeding ballot.
Souraya Faas endorses Vermin, but only bootless.
Results will be announced by state alphabetically starting from Texas and ending with Tennessee.
Disregard Faas’s condition. The Boot stays. He needs it to Boot-pill people.
Cutting it close for my schedule. I was hoping to witness Round 1 before my date with sauerbraten, red cabbage, spatzle and lots of beer.
As an alternate with no vote I cast my vote for Ed Clark! I really want to do that because in 1979 at the convention in LA I voted for Bill Hunscher. Gotta vote for Clark before it’s too late!
“Cutting it close for my schedule. I was hoping to witness Round 1 before my date with sauerbraten, red cabbage, spatzle and lots of beer.”-Bondurant
Ah… I see you are participating in FartFest 2020! Good for you!
What the hell is going on with these states? How long does it take to get the votes from the delegates? Are the delegates out grilling or washing their car? SMH.
I can’t believe I’m following this, actually. Roadside wrecks are hard to look away from, I guess.
We need a mix of boot and bootless. Faas is still going to run as an independent regardless, so her endorsement of Vermin is only for the LP nomination, like Behrman’s.
haha
Perhaps you’ll be a delegate in 2024 or 2028.
“Jorgensen/Marrou: Hey, Remember the ‘90s?”
It takes at least as long in person. The secretary estimates about 15 more minutes before they start announcing state by state. The chair said he expects susbsequent rounds would be faster.
Pretty sure VH1 would at least consider a reality show.
WE NEED YOUR SUPPORT!!!
LP.ORG/DONATE
LP.ORG/JOIN
LPSTORE.ORG
1-800 Elect-US
THANK YOU!
Typically during these vote counting times at in person conventions there are speakers or entertainments of some sort, as well as the points of inquiry and whatnot like now.
Sarwark says will check if everything is done again in 8 min.
They better adjourn soon or the service folks won’t have time to set up for the banquet.
Oops, wrong year. This year’s banquet seems to be buffet style. At least you get to choose some beer or wine of your choice instead of what the cash bartender is pouring.
good point, re: entertainment.
while I like the in-person convention, I’m not a fan of travel. so its 6 of one, half dozen of the other for me.
Its gonna be nice to turn off the computer and go back to my life immediately.
From a delegate that just switched to Supreme who is married to a Hornberger whip and wanted to remain anonymous.
“I’m team supreme now… While Jacob is inspiring too, I think his fate will be the same as all “serious” candidates we’ve had before. The LP is unlikely to win regardless, but Vermin gives us a chance to get the visibility we need. SO many people would be libertarians of they knew what we were about. Vermin gets their attention and then after they stop laughing, they realize he has a point. And suddenly… There’s a possibility in their minds that’s never been there before. “Maybe there really is a party that I could be proud to call “home”… Maybe there really is an option of something other than Red Shit and Blue Shit… Something to UNIFY around, not just one more thing to divide us.”
OMG!!! LOL!!! Go Vermin!!! Give ’em the Boot!!!
nice! We actually have a PredictIt Market! We Big Time!
https://www.predictit.org/markets/detail/6703/Who-will-win-the-2020-Libertarian-presidential-nomination?fbclid=IwAR3iUpn2HDiOyhtqmQDg5hM0z_bAZIhbmdG4OmCyZpx2ZiGwugqt0IUCWlY
Boman will make a motion to allow losing candidates to make 2 minute speeches.
Do “The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet” come on after this? I could really use some good canned laughter.
Concession speeches will be allowed.
TX Gray 6 Hornberger 7 Jo 18 Vermin 15 Monds 27
UT Jacob 1 Supreme 3 Jo 5
Jorgensen price going up, Gray and Hornberger price going down.
VT cool with Coolidge
3 Jacob
VA skips, will come back to them
So the reason for this long process is so these state chairs can ramble on and have their “moment of the spotlight”.
WA Gray 5 Jacob 22 Jo 1 Kokesh 2 Monds 3 Vermin 1
1 did not vote
Is there anywhere that shows a running total?
WV Gray 2 Monds 2 Vermin 2
WI NOTA 1 Gray 1 Monds 1 Vermin 2 Jacob 7 Jo 8
WY 3 Gray 1 Jo
yes, why no running total?
Sharpe price cratering on the VP market.
VA after a painful pause
Gray 3 Jacob 5 Jo 10
Lost my place, sorry
AL Jo 8 Vermin 1 Monds 1 Hornberger 3
@ Michigan Voter
Don’t expect us to altar our convention traditions to accommodate your schedule. As I mentioned earlier, check back later for the results.
AK Jacob 1 Adam 1 Monds 3? Vermin 1
AZ Monds 1 Amash 1 NOTA 2 Kokesh 4 Jacob 5 ? 5 Supreme 6
AR 1 Stossel 1 Monds 1 Supreme 4 Jacob
CA 28 Horn 23 Jo 14 supreme 11 gray 3 monds ,,,too many to keep up with for me
CO Gray 1 Jacob 6 Jo 5 Adam 3 Monds 5 Vermin 8 Sarwark 4 Vohra 1
“So the reason for this long process is so these state chairs can ramble on and have their ‘moment of the spotlight.’”
Well, yeah, it’s a party convention.
CT 1 Vermin 1 Adam 1 Gray 5 Jacob 5 Jo
I would appreciate it if you can do it.
DE 3 Jo 1 Vermin
FL
Gray 4 Horn 10 Jo 9 Adam 2 Monds 17 Vermin 9
DC out of order (always out of order)
1 Jo 1 Gray 1 Amash
GA
Gray 1 Jacob 13 Jo 1 Adam 1 Monds 10 Vermin 2 Amash 1
HI
Jo 2 Monds 2 Vermin 1
ID
3 jacob 1 Adam 2 Vermin
sorry, I’ve been paying more attention to the predictit market.
by the time I tally we’ll probably have a total from the Chair.
IL
6 Gray 7 Horn 3 Jo 3 Adam 8 Monds 9 Vermin 1 Chafee
IN
Gray 2 Horn 4 Jo 11 Adam 2 Monds 7 Vermin 4
IA
Gray 2 Adam 2 Hornberger 5 1 each two others
KS Jo 4 Vermin 2 skipped 1 and one write in
KY
Gray 2 Horn 1 … lost track, all 1 or 2
LA Gray 1 Vermin 4 NOTA 1 lost track of a few
ME
Gray 3 Jo 2 Adam 1 Vermin 1 and one vote not cast
MD
2 Adam 6 Jo 12 Jacob
Monds on the VP market now…7 cents.
That is a serious value bet right now.
MA
Gray 2 Jacob 4 Jo 7 Adam 2 Monds 1 Supreme 6
MI
1 Sarwark 1 Vermin 1 Gray 4 Adam 5 Monds 6 Jo 7 Jacob 9 Amash
MN
Gray 2 Jacob 2 Jo 6 Adam 4 Vermin 4
MS
1 Jacob 1 Monds 1 Adam 3 Jo
MO
3 Gray 7 Jacob 2 Jo 2 Adam 5 Vermin
MT
Gray 1 Jacob 1 Jo 1 Adam 1 Monds 2
NE
1 Jacob 2 Vermin 5 Jo
NV
Monds 8 Jo 5
NH
3 Vermin 4 Jo 2 Monds 1 Adam
NJ
1 Adam 2 Gray 5 Vermin 4 Jo 7 Jacob 1 NOTA
NM
Gray 1 Monds 2 Horn 4 Jo 6
NY
16 Gray 11 Jacob 5 Jo 1 Adam 3 Monds 11 Vermin 1 NOTA
NC
Gray 2 Jacob 8 Jo 10 Adam 2 Monds 4 Vermin 3
ND Jacob 1 Jo 2
Jorgensen’s running mate should start prepping his 2044 presidential campaign…
OH
Monds 2 Adam 3 Jo 4 Jacob 5 Gray 6 Vermin 15
OK
1 Gray 1 Jacob 1 Vermin 1 Adam 3 Monds 7 Jo
OR
1 Adam 1 Vermin 1 NOTA 1 didn’t vote 5 Jacob 6 Jo
PA
Jacob 12 Jo 12 Vermin 8 Monds 2 Gray 3 Adam 1 Amash 1 Snowden 1
RI
3 Jacob
SC
Monds 4 Vermin 5 Jo 8
SD
1 Adam 1 Vermin 3 Jo
TN
3 Gray 5 Jo 4 Vermin
missed a few others
JJ up to 81 cents on PredictIt.
Might not take that many ballots at all.
First Ballot
Gray 98
Hornberger 236
Jo 248
Vermin 171
Missed some
Kokesh eliminated
Joe Bishop-Henchman
Admin · 1 min
President first ballot:
Jorgensen 248
Hornberger 236
Supreme 171
Monds 147
Gray 98
Kokesh 77
NOTA 8
Write-Ins 31 (Amash 17, Sarwark 5, Vohra 3, Ardeleanu 2, Snowden 2, Stossel 1, Chafee 1, Boogie 1)
Kokesh: no endoresement, would love to be VP
Mrs. Kokesh is an erotic entertainer. Perhaps she is the breadwinner. There is a Mrs. Supreme as well, but I know nothing of her beyond that.
First Round Results:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QLkJWweDV0-v9-8caKPp91OS5nf6nPb6-AHqeekFaJ8/edit?usp=sharing
buynickabeer.com is a thing.
I imagine Vermin is a decent guy and probably quite frugal with his money, like you said.
LOL
Definitely my impression of him in person.
Motion to dispense with state by state roll call
we didn’t do roll call with the 2nd round in 2016, did we?
I didn’t think so.
Dispense state by state roll call passes easily.
I think it passes customarily but still has to be a motion.
Ethan Owens: “Anyone who changes their current supporting vote from their current candidate to Vermin Supreme will get a very fancy Beef Jerky donation from me personally. Seriously it’s great fucking jerky”
that’s high protein stuff.
JJ at 87 cents on the Prez market. That’s a high.
Armstrong and Sharpe in a dead heat at 36 cents on the VP market
Jorgensen seems relatively well-liked by her students:
https://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=876875
That is a bribe. But I prefer hardtack!
VP ballot has been reissued.
JJ up to 90 cents.
VP market still an Armstrong-Sharpe dead heat.
Allegedly. Checked email, don’t have mine yet.
At ease for 20 min.
I’m thinking we might end up with a Jorgenson/Monds ticket.
Having said that, I continue to be impressed with Vermin. I met him at the CA convention, and liked him as a human. He has put on a good campaign. I haven’t voted for him yet, but I might in a subsequent vote. I like Hornberger, but I was really turned off by his combative behavior at the debate the other night. A lot of the people I admire are supporting Hornberger, though.
It’s all so confusing!
Monds shooting up the PredictIt Market. Up from 7 cents to 16 now.
https://www.teenvogue.com/story/vermin-supreme-2020-presidential-campaign-libertarian-party-for-real
Erin Adams
5 mins
several motions are going to be made after balloting and if they pass they will in effect violate the compromise that has been so strongly supported by the delegates up to this point.
#keepthecompromise
AL 2nd ballot, no changes except one person switched from Jorgensen to Monds.
JJ at 92 cents now.
We’re getting close to a fait accompli.
NEWS UPDATE!
It’s a slow news day….. So 1K Media read the first ballot results…
JJ at 94 cents
VP market:
Armstrong 38 cents
Sharpe 38 cents
Monds 16 cents
Spike 13 cents
Jorgenson-Monds
JoJo 2020!
wouldn’t it be JoMo?
2nd round Gray dropped with 64 votes
3rd round tomorrow
Jorgensen 339 Hornberger 257 Supreme 184 Monds 169 Gray 64 NOTA 6 Kokesh 6 Amash 1 Sarwark 1 Darryl Perry 1
does JJ really want this to wait until tomorrow?
I would think not.
Joe Bishop-Henchman
Admin · 3 mins
President second ballot:
Jorgensen 339 (33.0%)
Hornberger 257 (25.0%)
Supreme 184 (17.9%)
Monds 169 (16.4%)
Gray 64 (6.2%)
NOTA 6 (0.6%)
Write-Ins 9 (Kokesh 6, Amash 1, Sarwark 1, Perry 1)
Gray and his dog endorse Jorgensen.
Poll on whether we do a third round tonight.
I would raise holy hell if I was JJ. no way I let this go to tomorrow
Nick says 3rd round will probably win.
90% yes.
DED McVeigh…any relation to Timothy?
It’s a majority vote, right? If Monds concedes to Jorgensen and Gray votes go to her, plus a few odds and end, that hopefully will do it. On the other hand, a fourth ballot WILL mean less time for the Convention Cancellers to do their dirty work.
“If Monds concedes to Jorgensen and Gray votes go to her, plus a few odds and end, that hopefully will do it.”
That’s exactly what I’d be pushing for if I were JJ.
https://thelibertyherald.com/2020/05/23/libertarian-convention-update-after-two-rounds-jo-jorgensen-and-jacob-hornberger-lead-among-delegates/
Sharpe sure switched to Jorgensen fast. 🙂
Delegates don’t all vote as a bloc. Some will go here, some will go there, some will switch, etc.
“Will the media book her so America can learn about her? No. I’m a member of the libertarian media and I have not and do not have interest in talking to her.”
the libertarian media outside of Reason Magazine is a nothingburger.
I got news for this guy: the mainstream media is very unlikely to book ANY of our candidates.
The VP PredictIt for Sharpe dropped to almost nothing? What happened, did he pull out?
yes he did
They will book all of them to some limited extent. I am thinking Vermin would get booked more. But I think he’s being too pessimistic about Jo. She has some very good people working on her staff who know what they are doing.
fair enough: some limited extent.
and yea, I think he’s being to pessmistic on Jo.
wow. Armstrong just rocketed to 78 cents on the VP market
10 am central tomorrow has a plurality (near majority) in a multi choice poll for start time tomorrow
Noon dropped, 2nd round of start time poll
10 am wins on 2nd round
Back from gorging on German cuisine and running a few errands and the primary is still rolling! The Pony Express is galloping!
Paulie,
Help me out with this…
If they either Wrap up VP Early tomorrow, Why wouldn’t they just redo the agenda for tomorrow to wrap up the rest of the convention business and end the year tomorrow…
Because it would take a week or two and cause some states to pull ballot access?
81% non-binding poll to finish POTUS nomination tonight.
This is up to the candidates to do the honorable thing and finish this tonight, in deference to the delegates. Make the deal.
Noah Oliver Rhys
Be glad all the trolls haven’t found this page. A lot of agit prop artists and Vermin Supreme spammers.
Vermin evidently put pro-choice libertarians discussion group out to his list and all sorts of GREEN/progressives tried to join. I didn’t think we wanted to hear their abuse when they noticed we didn’t want to fund abortion or force nuns to pay for it so I denied almost all of them membership.
But a few solid libertarians DID get the message and they were added to the group.
Motion to remove bottom 2 rather than bottom 1 vote getters. Requires 2/3.
I’d be happy if a bunch of greens and progressives started posting here.
Trolls are spamming the stream on YouTube instead. They aren’t sophisticated to seek information elsewhere.
Fails, 74% against.
Ballot access news comments as well.
Motion to consider making porcupine the official mascot, 49-49%; needed 2/3, fails.
Hornberger cratered to 4 cents over at PredictIt. Below Vermin now (5 cents).
Makes sense. He doesn’t pick up many votes in subsequent rounds, I expect.
Ah, I feel bad for Mr. Winger if the trolls are feeding in his waters. On the flip side it’s good for web traffic. Ballot Access News is a great site.
Hornberger 264 Jorgensen 390 Monds 174 Vermin 188 NOTA 7 Sarwark 1 Kokesh 1 Ebke 1
Monds drops
Joe Bishop-Henchman
Admin · 1 min
President third ballot:
Jorgensen 390 (38.1%)
Hornberger 264 (25.7%)
Supreme 188 (18.3%)
Monds 174 (16.9%)
NOTA 7
Write-Ins 3 (Sarwark 1, Kokesh 1, Ebke 1)
Monds endorses Jorgensen, says he is available for VP
Looks like AD will be getting his way. I sorta kinda like a woman/man of color ticket. I won’t be voting, though.
From Larry Sharpe, Libertarian for VP:
“Thank you all for your support in the LP VP nomination process. I came in with the Judge and I left with the Judge. I know that some of you are disappointed. But, I will still be here, with the party and movement. I’d like to formally endorse a personal friend, with an amazing resume, to be the LP VP nominee, Ken Armstrong for Vice President 2020. I think Ken and Jo Jorgensen for President, a great candidate, person and a true unifier, will make a great team for us this year. I support them both, I hope you will too.”
Poll on whether to adjourn for the evening
Could be enough to put Jorgensen over the top.
JJ at 98 cents now.
Maybe. Armstrong or Spike might win, or there may be a curveball.
RC,
not necessarily my first, 2nd or 3rd choice, but we avoided disaster.
79% against adjourning, 4th ballot now.
you know, on 2nd thought…we could have adjourned and taken the clinching vote tomorrow right smack dab in the middle of the Sunday morning news shows.
I mean, why adjourn? It’s not like delegates are going out drinking or anything, or even have to get back to their hotel…
It’s been 12 hours. People are tired. Time for people to consider who they want to vote for after their choice are out. Secretary are tellers are exhausted. Those are a few reasons.
Monds up to 54 cents in the VP market.
AD,
Any of the choices will be completely ignored, most likely. None are credible.
Mike Shipley
1 min
We will not get another chance at a viral youth oriented campaign in the foreseeable future. I urge my colleagues to go outside your comfort zones and take an entrepreneurial risk by placing your vote with Vermin Supreme.
For at least a couple of the delegates….
It’s Getting Late Early… 😉
Hockey Uniform Colors? Emails in order to get… email? Really?
I believe the Beer is always in order 😉
RC,
you know you’re right.
but there’s ignored…and there is getting attention and then ridiculed.
Kokesh has allegedly now endorsed Hornberger. This is second hand and not confirmed.
If Hornberger gets the nod, I will need to find another term to describe my politics.
Does Kokesh matter?
JJ + Monds is already 50%.
It doesn’t work like that. Candidates do not control all of the delegates who voted for them.
Lauren Grindstaff Mckinnon
Just now
If someone can tell me 3 TRULY media worthy things about Jo, I’ll throw my support behind her.
no, not officially, but in practice.
Monds endorsement of JJ means more than Kokseh’s of Hornberger, no?
Not least of which is because JJ was ahead and Monds had more delegate support than Kokesh.
Starchild asks an excellent question about toothpaste brands.
Not even close. Delegates scatter all over when their choice drops.
Vermin provides excellent answer. If only we could run Vermin-Starchild, we would actually make some real waves and do some real good.
Ken Willey: “Vermin Supreme is the candidate who can garner the media spotlight. We, the down ballot candidates and voters, can build on his campaign. He is the best chance we have.”
JJ at 99 cents.
Armstrong at 53 cents in the VP market, Monds at 37.
Richard Manzo:
FWIW, Newmarket NH town councilman and congressional candidate Zachary Dumont is urging LPNH delegates to vote for Vermin Supreme. Elected officials seem to recognize his value at a high rate, which I appreciate greatly.
wackos on parade…
It’s definitely a tough choice: Jorgensen, who will be fine and won’t embarrass anyone but who won’t make any splash at all, or Supreme, who would get a lot of attention but also be an easy target for those who want to marginalize the LP. Not sure how I would vote.
Those that will marginalize the LP will do so no matter whom is on the ballot. Ye Olde Media and acolytes of the Duopoly will always oppose us. Fuck ’em. Vote Vermin.
Even on IPR those that bitch about Vermin aren’t even libertarians. Just a bunch of disgruntled Republicans and Democrats that want the LP to cater to their inflated egos.
Finally got my reissued VP ballot.
Kokesh stumping for VP to his list.
“Those that will marginalize the LP will do so no matter whom is on the ballot. Ye Olde Media and acolytes of the Duopoly will always oppose us.”
The media doesn’t have it out for us. They ignore us when we nominate the ignorable. You can be sure they’ll follow us if we nominate viable candidates.
They are not going to start paying attention if we nominate the catastrophically unqualified out of spite.
More Mojo with JoJo2020. A fine campaign.
Monds endorsement is probably decisive.
Most of the attention, here just like on social media, goes to Vermin. Traditional media also follow virality patterns, more so since social media has taken off.
Jorgensen wins! With not quite 51% of the vote. Or so Rob Latham reports on FB.
Congratulations Dr. Jo Jorgensen!
5 ballots?
my over/under of 5.5 was the bookmaker bullseye.
https://lpstore.org/product/jorgensen-for-president-yard-sign-12×24/
A woman LP prez candidate. It’s about time!!!
Now get Monds in there and off we go!
Ethan Bishop-Henchman
9 mins
Thanks to the Libertarian Party, Americans in all 50 states plus DC will have a real choice this November. She is principled, she is practical, and she is persuasive. A vote for Dr. Jo Jorgensen will be a vote for peace and prosperity.
What a contrast to the two old men put up by the two old parties. Both of those men, like the parties they represent, are unfit to lead our country. I’m so excited that starting tomorrow Joe and I will be getting down to work sharing this amazing woman with our country.
Congrats Jo!!!
http://www.joj2020.com/
4 ballots so half way between your 5.5 and my 2.5
https://reason.com/2020/05/23/jo-jorgensen-wins-libertarian-party-presidential-nomination/
https://reason.com/2020/05/23/how-the-abolitionist-grandfathers-of-modern-libertarianism-won-by-losing-and-lost-by-winning/
https://www.texasfreepress.com/post/libertarian-party-2020-presidential-race-results-1st-ballot
First Female Libertarian Nominee to Face Trump and Biden after Winning 1st Zoom Convention
Has the official state-by-state, round-by-round tallies been published anywhere? Very curious to see how the AZ delegates voted each round.
Both of those old white guys are SEX PERVERTS. At least Trump stuck to groping adult women. Biden feels up little girls in front of their parents. Search “creepy uncle joe” on Youtube and find collages of video from CSPAN.
lol Carol.
Pithy.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11f-FPaExWZ8OSIHtOree_HujQdylYv1yJ0MUEwXECm4/edit#gid=0
There are plenty of allegations of Trump going after underage girls, ranging from publicly lusting after his own then teen daughter and his backstage hijinks at teen beauty pageants to hanging out with Epstein and probably sneaking off to the island (passengers on private flights aren’t necessarily recorded) to an accusation of forcible rape by a then 13 year old.
For those who missed it in conversation yesterday and on the VP debate article:
*Larry Sharpe dropped out and endorsed Ken Armstrong
*Adam Kokesh lost the race for the presidential nomination, and is now actively campaigning for VP
*John Monds lost the race for the presidential nomination, and said he would be interested in helping the nominee in whatever way he can, including as a VP nominee
*Nick Sarwark has confirmed that he would accept the nomination if nominated
*From that debate, Ken Armstrong and Spike Cohen are also still in contention for VP
* Jorgensen has promised to discuss VP preferences in her acceptance speech later this morning
Harlos to LNC list:
Not all of the regions got their paperwork to me in time. I did make
reminders.
As I stated before, I do think the chair was mistaken in his ruling on the
deadline. However, it is my understanding of our bylaws if there is no
appeal of the ruling of the chair that those regions are not formed.
Mr. Sarwark and regionals, please advise. I will post in a reply to this
email what paperwork was submitted. I want to thoroughly go through my
email box which is pretty jammed packed right now.
I’m in the meeting on the phone and zoom. https://www.youtube.com/user/LibertarianParty does not have day 3 yet but presumably will soon.
“…ranging from publicly lusting after his own then teen daughter…”
sounds icky every time I read it.
1044 delegates credentialed.
DAY 3 LINK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhCmfH_qHhI
#Jo2020 #TeamJo #VoteGold
Nick is trying to get a hold of Jo for her acceptance speech. Has not reached her yet.
holy crap the world is ending I agree with Vohra,
Thanks for the Google doc, Paulie. Vermin picked up a vote in every round among the AZ delegates. Great to see.
Less surprising that I agree with him about the faux-Misesians.
true. re: faux-Misesians
Probably not coincidentally, incest has trended as a theme in porn ever since the Cheeto Benito has been in office.
yea, what is up with that paulie?
I’m…ahem…listening to porn, and they are talking about sex with relatives.
wtf? Its a big turnoff, man.
Poll: shall the ruling of the chair that VP token deadline not be extended be sustained? Practically, due to the limitations of electionbuddy, if it were extended it would be yet another do over – 4th by my count.
Sustained with 65%
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/24/jo-jorgensen-tapped-2020-libertarian-party-nominee/
Did the Chair of CA fail to get his delegates votes in time or is this a few delegates that couldn’t complete a task in 12 hours plus an extension?
The latter.
Cohen 302 Monds 296 Armstrong 115 Kokesh 69
Sharpe 21 Sarwark 20 Hornberger 14 Supreme 7 Istvan 7 Gray 6 McAfee 6 Robb 5 Heise 2 Ron Paul 2 Tulsi Gabbard 2
that’s a really sh*tty headline by the conservative paper Washington Times.
I hope to god we sink Cheeto.
“I hope to god we sink Cheeto”- Anthony Dlugos
Then vote for Biden. If you have that strong a preference why not?
Is the WAR Cabal striking back for ’12 with this nonsense?
Motion to suspend rules to add Sarwark. Requires 2/3.
“Then vote for Biden. If you have that strong a preference why not?”
well, I will say that if we nominated an anti-choice candidate, I would have seriously considered Biden.
OTOH, I really don’t matter, right? I was never voting for Trump.
What we need is some Trump or Trump leaners to vote Libertarian (or Democrat).
The alligators in Florida are getting hungrier.
I think this is where Jo needs to start demonstrating LEADERSHIP.
She is essentially the new head of the party, and vying to be the leader of the country. Time to come out forcefully with the nominee she WANTS to be v.p. so that we can wrap this convention up with professionalism and haste.
Sarwark confirms he would accept nomination.
Suspension of the rules to add Sarwark fails.
PredictIt Market: Monds up to an overwhelming favorite at 94 cents. Spike at 15 cents, Armstrong cratered to a penny.
Maybe the JoMo deal is already done and the market reflects it?
“Dems Nominate Genial Hair-Plug Enthusiast to Challenge Twice-Divorced Ex-Game Show Host” — The Washington Moons
Order Monds, Kokesh, Armstrong, Cohen. 11 minutes each.
* Ex-politician grandfather
Monds speaking for himself.
Next up, Adam Kokesh
Brent Olsen via recorded video for Kokesh
Audio problem with Kokesh video, or is it just me?
Judging by a quick scan of youtube comments it’s not just me.
Kokesh was back live for a few seconds but then lost his audio connection again
Adam is back.The others would have been someone from CA and Joseph Howe of Iowa. Skipping video this time, just Adam for himself..
…and he’s cutting in and out. Telling Iraq war story.
Ken Moellman
Admin · Just now
Delegates — DAY THREE is underway. Today’s agenda calls for VPOTUS nomination speeches, POTUS acceptance speech, and VPOTUS voting. Delegates should have received an email and a link. If you have not, work through your delegation chair and the executive director xd@lphq.org
Adam’s speech and technical capabilities.
Armstrong up next with Paige Sexton, Bennett Morris, Victoria Reynolds and Larry Sharpe.
Watching a bit behind Kokesh’s talk and one almost feel like it’s being sabotaged. Or his tech people really stink?
innnnnyyyy how… I like Kokesh, but can’t get out of my mind that message “If elected president I’d quit the next day.” Even if it’s NOT his main platform or part of his platform any more, it’s all I can think about when speaks. but he is good on radical decentralization.
Armstrong for himself.
Just Adam and a crappy connection out in the boonies.
The tin foil brigade on YouTube thinks everything that happens is a conspiracy orchestrated by Sarwark.
Cohen w/ Tom Arnold, Kim Ruff. Brent De Ridder, Anthony Welti
Has Jorgensen expressed a preference?
Not yet. Rumor has Monds but we shall see.
Daniel Hayes is with Sam Goldstein.
1 min
Relative to the contract for the LNC Convention being in person for July 8th through July 12th with Business starting on July 9th.:
The normal contract procedure that is utilized is that the Convention Oversight Committee receives the initial contract from the hotel. The COC will typically go through and enact its suggested revisions, then we will send it to party’s counsel and from there we start sending it back and forth with the hotel/venue to agree on our language. Once that is perfected and our attorney gives his final approval, the contract is sent to the chair to execute.
This situation is different than normal. Counsel expressed a desire to fully inform the LNC. After his last requests to change the Hotel, the Hotel essentially agreed to those changes and our counsel was not available Friday to go over them again. The COC had agreed to these changes on our call.
With the current situation in mind I sent the last 2 versions of the contract to the members of the LNC with Oliver and staff looped in to the email.
Counsel expresses concern over the present Covid-19 situation comes with inherent risk greater than normal.
I believe that the LNC was fully aware of that when they selected Shingle Creek. The venue has bent over backwards to reduce risk to us. The contract is extremely favorable to the LNC in my opinion.
The COC is of the opinion the contract is ready to sign.
DeRidder and Ruff made the best of their technical capabilities. Take note, Adam. This is how it’s done.
Spike plugs https://disruptthevote.com/
Spike is relentlessly on point and frankly more articulate than anyone in our field, VP or Prez.
Yep!
Jorgensen said she would be happy with any of the choices. Says good things about all of them.
Jorgensen says she will vote for Monds but not pushing him hard.
If I were Spike, I would separate from VS immediately.
He has a LEGITIMATE future in politics.
77% no on approval voting. Moving to first ballot.
CAH plugs lpedia. Tara DeSisto fundraising for LP ballot access.
Sign the damned contract or a lot of people will ask for money back and NOT contribute any more. Sarwark better not sabotage this, whether or not he runs for Chair (or Fuhrer under HIS rule). I’ll want $750 back and just give money locally. (Already got $3300 back before the rush begins.)
Plugging various candidates for different offices around the country.
Baldes speaking about her state house run in Wyoming
“ Counsel expresses concern over the present Covid-19 situation comes with inherent risk greater than normal.”
In other developments Water is Wet and the Sun rises in the East…
An inherent risk of serious illness and death in large groups.
Again, why. It just do the party business today? Like other parties are doing Online?
If it’s good enough to nominate a Ticket….
Someone needs to update Zoom!
No, I don’t. I did not actually raise my hand.
If I had it would have been *9 on the phone. Now I raised it to let them know if anything claims I raised it on the computer again it’s a false flag since I have no sound on the computer. If they do call on me I guess I may as well mention our ongoing coverage here.
From Richard Winger at Ballot Access News:
“It is perfectly legal for a party to nominate presidential and vice-presidential candidates who live in the same state. The US Constitution only requires that presidential electors from any particular state can’t vote for someone for both president and vice-president who lives in that state when the electoral college meets. In 2000, both George W. Bush and Dick Cheney were registered voters in Texas. That was no problem. Cheney moved to Wyoming before the electoral college met. The Socialist Workers Party many times ran presidential and vice-presidential candidates who both lived in New York state, but that was never a problem. They were challenged once, in 1964, but they beat the challenge. If we carried South Carolina in the 2020 election, I’m sure Jo Jorgensen or Spike Cohen would be delighted to move to some other state after the November 3 election but before the electoral college votes in mid-December.”
http://ballot-access.org/2020/05/23/libertarian-party-third-round-of-presidential-voting/#comments
Some have expressed concern about Jo and Spike both being in SC.
Armstrong 180 Cohen 416 Kokesh 87 Monds 322 NOTA 7
Write ins 2 each for Sarwark, McAfee; 1 each Rhett Boogie, Laura Ebke, missed the rest as the screen switched.
Wow!
First round for LP VP:
Spike Cohen 416 votes 40.63%
John Monds 322 votes 31.45%
Ken Armstrong 180 votes 17.58%
Adam Kokesh 87 votes 8.50% (eliminated from next round)
NOTA 7 votes 0.68%
Nicholas Sarwark (write-in) 2 votes 0.20%
John McAfee (write-in) 2 votes 0.20%
Laura Ebke (write-in) 1 vote 0.10%
Rhett Boogie (write-in) 1 vote 0.10%
Michael Kalagias (write-in) 1 vote 0.10%
Vermin Supreme (write-in) 1 vote 0.10%
Edward Snowden (write-in) 1 vote 0.10%
Sorriene Ardeleanu (write-in) 1 vote 0.10%
Julian Assange (write-in) 1 vote 0.10%
Justin Amash (write-in) 1 vote 0.10%
It’s gonna be close to 50% for Cohen, but maybe not there. Or people will abandon Armstrong. I just don’t find Cohen very compelling as a candidate though I’m sure he’s a sharp administrator and media person.
very tight.
disappointed in Dr. Jorgensen not being more forceful about who she wanted as v.p.
She could have asked Mary Ruwart to run with her. That would have been interesting!
she could have asked SOMEONE.
have an opinion, for chrissake.
True…but I think Mary Ruwart is still hurting from the 2008 smears and not too eager for more of the same.
She did say who she’s voting for. But especially given that she won with 51% on the 4th ballot, she wouldn’t necessarily get her top choice. I think it was smart of her to be respectful and positive to all the VP candidates, so that there’s not bad blood off the bat if the convention’s preference is not hers. Also, she may genuinely believe that the other choices would be pretty good too.
Lpedia crashed because everyone tried to get on it at once when CAH announced the link. She said try tomorrow.
It’s back up.
ok, I’ll respond by saying that, as of her nomination last night…if by one vote…she is now the nominee, effectively the leader of the party, and vying to be leader of the country. No decision is going to get easier from here on out. In fact, they get harder.
Hard to believe a leader of any decisiveness would have no opinion on the matter. She should have come out last night and basically said, “you voted for me, here’s who I want.” End of story.
It may have backfired. There’s a time for that sort of tactic. Johnson really wanted Weld, and Weld wouldn’t have gotten it without his heavy help. I think she handled this one correctly.
fair enough.
we agree to disagree on that one.
It would have been nice to have had an all female ticket. This year is almost certainly NOT the year to expect a breakout but that would have been an attention getter. There are certainly plenty of qualified women to choose from.
The highest vote getters for VP and black and Jewish, so there’s that.
Sammy Davis. Jr? 🙂
Round 2: Cohen 474 Monds 432 Armstrong 96
Monds dropped
I did not get NOTA and write-ins before screen changed.
NOTA 12
Other 11
Motion to suspend the rules to allow 2 minutes each for concessions from Kokesh and Armstrong
Not sure what happened but apparently it passed without objection? Kokesh up first.
Armstrong up now
Armstrong likes Cohen the best; Kokesh did not express any preference that I heard of.
Monds should have reminded delegates of all the votes he’s gotten as a candidate.
https://lpedia.org/wiki/John_Monds
Shane Sweeny
6 mins
Ladies and gentlemen, if you are a delegate, please vote Spike Cohen for VP. His ability to reach young voters is EXACTLY what the Jorgenson campaign needs. He can inspire hope in young voters jaded by a slew of older candidates who don’t speak their language. #Spike4VPOTUS
Libertarian Pragmatist Caucus
19 mins
As our endorsed candidate Ken Armstrong has been eliminated from the Libertarian Party’s Vice Presidential ballot, our Board of Directors encourages our members to join Jo Jorgensen in casting their ballots for John Monds on the next round of voting as the principled and practical choice for the Libertarian Party’s White House ticket.
Carol,
I was thinking that about Monds and his receiving over 100k votes in a 3 way race for Georgia governor. Significantly better the any other libertarian for that office. Not to mention the over 1 million votes when he ran in a 2 way race for Georgia Public Service commissioner.
interesting that Armstrong endorsed Spike, but that the Prag Caucus, which originally endorsed Armstrong, just endorsed Monds.
I was surprised by Armstrong’s endorsement as well. Not so much LPC’s.
There’s a lot of whiny Republicans in the YouTube chat. Makes the balloting delays pass.
I was certain Armstrong would urge votes for Monds.
Not surprising.
Same.
So if in the middle of an international pandemic, if the second sitting does not happen it would be by LNC Resignation and replacement, and not delegates?
Or, just amend agenda and do it today/tomorrow. Problem solved.
Interesting idea? Since we are assuming the delegates have nominated and the will of the delegates chose their nominees, and Caryn will sign the nomination paperwork.
After that, it’s party business no?
Yes.
Already went over this yesterday in this same thread. For one thing given the number of things to vote on it would take at least a week. maybe more. For another some states are threatening to pull ballot access if that happens.
Cohen 533 Monds 472
Spike Cohen 533 (52.2%)
John Monds 472 (46.2%)
NOTA 10 (1.0%)
Other 7
well, I was for Monds, but Spike won this with his performance this last week, no doubt about it.
Monds would have won it otherwise.
Agreed other than that I was and am for Spike.
I’ve been voting at every presidential convention since 2000 and this is the first time I have been on the winning side for VP.
Well, everyone has to grin and bear everything…ha ha ha
He just better not let any big male ego step all over her.
Spike, Jorgensen acceptance speeches. Up next: wrangling over the second sitting of the convention or lack thereof.
Bitter sweet result. Monds is a solid candidate/asset for the LP but Spike’s win resulted in a GOP furor on the YouTube chat. Those salty fucks. “I’m not voting LP now”. You never were, assholes. Fuck off.
We could have a great ’24 cycle if Amash, Spike and Monds are all involved.
Ok, second part..: though there still is a national emergency declared in all 50 states by Orange..
Although I would question that, and there’s a great court case there… here’s a thought.
Are there any LP state parties that remind you of Oregon? No?
Then get a bare quorum Of the state committee in any of those and have them vote in person with distancing etc. for the ticket. Problem solved. The state party controls the ballot line, and if the ticket is the same no affiliation questions…
Then get a
It was also nice that Spike turned over most of his time to Jo. Thats a very good sign.
https://reason.com/2020/05/24/libertarian-party-picks-spike-cohen-as-its-vice-presidential-candidate/?amp=&__twitter_impression=true
Bondurant,
Why do the GOP folks hate Spike?
Motion to adjourn without naming a place and time to reconvene fails.
Associated with Vermin, anarchist, Jew, blah blah blah.
Motion to suspend the rules to elect the judicial committee.
Well, that’s a good sign that the GOP interlopers hate him.
Fails with 80% against.
Nick announces he will not chair a convention in Orlando.
Nick walks off and hands the gavel to Alex. Not yet clear whether he is resigning altogether or just as convention chair. Nick clarifies that it’s just handing off the gavel at this time.
Motion to adjourn to Orlando July 9 and have LNC terms expire on Aug 31 if it doesn’t happen.
GOP tourists think Vermin Supreme is a communist agitator, his website is stupid, blah, blah…just a bunch of baseless garbage that ruffled feathers. They cannot stand the boot and translate their irrational feelings to Spike.
Parliamentarian says the proposed motion is out of order.
Joe Bishop-Henchman, LNC Member (At-Large) & Candidate for LNC Chair
Admin · May 22 at 4:15 PM
There may be a motion tonight to postpone the presidential and vice presidential nomination to July. I will be voting against it. If we postpone everything until July, we will lose ballot access in several states. It will be claimed that postponing to July saves ballot access because “25 states” supposedly require us to nominate at an in-person convention; all our attorneys and ballot access experts say this is not true. But the multiple ballot access deadlines between now and July are very real.
There may be a motion tonight to conduct all of our regular business online, including LNC elections, this weekend. I will be voting against it. I know the compromise to hold the presidential nomination online now and save other business for a future July meeting is not a popular one but it’s what gets our ticket nominated so we can move forward together. I also don’t think we have the time or the logistics ready to do more than that this weekend anyways.
I do think it is essential that a second sitting of the convention this year permit remote participation for delegates who choose not to be there.
It’s up to you now, but that’s how I’ll be voting.
Motion to adjourn to Orlando
$105k liability if July convention is cancelled.
This information is disputed.
“So if in the middle of an international pandemic, if the second sitting does not happen it would be by LNC Resignation and replacement, and not delegates? ”
California has already elected its reps for the next cycle. States are perfectly able to form groups and agree to a method of choosing regional rep and alternate, e.g., agreement of the state chairs. Once there are any regional reps, the LNC can fill in blanks other than regional reps.
Wouldn’t the rest of the LNC have to individually agree to resign?
Motion to allow adjourn to Orlando and allow LNC to select a replacement location and date if that doesn’t work out.
Nick pulled a Czarwark. ha ha ha
Otherwise I’m 1/2 hour plus behind on youtube cause doggie insisted on walkie. She’s chairwoman of the house.
Tired. Would appreciate someone(s) else liveblogging.
Join or Renew Today: https://www.lp.org/jojorgensen/
Support Ballot Access: https://www.lp.org/ballotaccess
JoJ2020 Yard Signs: https://lpstore.org/product/jorgensen-for-president-yard-sign-12×24/
#Jo2020 #TeamJo #VoteGold
And you thought yesterday was fun…
77% – Adjourned to Shingle Creek in Orlando July 9
Except they did not put an amendment in keeping delegates.
I assume the LNC (and maybe state chairs) are delegates by default. That appears to be it. And the chair won’t chair the meeting if he comes at all…
Interesting.
“Except they did not put an amendment in keeping delegates.”
Did they have to do that?
Serious question.
I’m a half hour behind and the comment was it just means people have to be recredentialed in Orlando. Now the issue of people NOT attending having a vote was NOT addressed and I have a problem with that as a PRECEDENT since it easily could be used to stage a takeover of LP by whomsoever who is even less libertarian than sarwark.
Sarwark will refuse to sign the contract and try to trash the convention. He should be removed and disgraced.
I believe it just means people have to be recredentialed. The states selected delegates and that has not changed.
Did he say this, or are you making that up?
Probably just soaking up the anti-Sarwark spam from the YouTube. Many tales of conspiracy and treachery but nothing provided to substantiate. Just a bunch of tin foil hat drama.
Can’t we just do another Zoom meetup at some point in the future for the LNC spots and call it a day?
Is that against the bylaws?
AD: “Why do the GOP folks hate Spike?”
paulie: “Associated with Vermin, anarchist, Jew, blah blah blah.”
Yes, yes, and doubtful. If your point is that libertarian-leaning conservatives are racist, do you really they’d prefer the dark-skinned African American man who is president of his local NAACP chapter over the pastey white Jewish guy?
“If your point is that libertarian-leaning conservatives are racist, do you really they’d prefer the dark-skinned African American man who is president of his NAACP local chapter over the pastey white Jewish guy?”
That thought did occur to me.
Maybe they’re just upset that the alt-Mises takeover is not going to happen.
It depends on which ones. Some have more of a problem with Jews, some with blacks, some both, some neither. And please don’t confuse youtube trolls with libertarian-leaning conservatives. There may be some overlap. But clearly two different things.
I like Monds, but I think Cohen clearly presented better and justifiably won a place on the ticket. He obviously did not do it with Vermin delegates alone.
As for whether we are white, that depends who you ask. In Russia we were not considered white. Hitler did not consider us white. Fash and klan types in the US don’t consider us white. Many of them play “libertarian-leaning conservative” when they troll youtube and other such platforms. When I get locked up, there is a self-segregation system in many jails and I don’t get considered white by the inmates, they consider me an “other” as they would Spike since we are of Jewish ancestry. And there are tons of fash who hate us worse than they hate blacks. Don’t tell me you didn’t know.
“I like Monds, but I think Cohen clearly presented better and justifiably won a place on the ticket. He obviously did not do it with Vermin delegates alone.”
Must agree.
I think we missed out on a big opportunity to present a Jorgenson-Monds ticket to the country. The optics would have been great.
On the other hand, as I noted throughout this weekend, and now concur with paulie….Spike justifiably won. I’m no Vermin fan, but give credit where credit is due: Spike was good all weekend.
And don’t forget, he beat Armstrong too.
Also, I’m not sure how much legs the Jorgensen-Monds ticket would have had anyway. My guess is it would have got some initial play in the media…maybe The View or something…and then would have faded away and getting any media to merely return a call would have turned out to be next to impossible.
Johnson briefly told me in 2016 just how difficult is was for him to get a call returned in 2012 when it was Johnson-Gray, because of Gray’s lack of elective office experience.
Jared, look at the comments on the Ballot Access News story about Spike winning the VP nomination and tell me that being Jewish has nothing to do with why some people have a problem with him.
paulie: “. . .And there are tons of fash who hate us worse than they hate blacks. Don’t tell me you didn’t know.”
I think you are reading too much into it. Less sinister explanations are far more likely.
AD: “Maybe they’re just upset that the alt-Mises takeover is not going to happen.”
“Alt-Mises” is a pretty great label for that camp.
Unfortunately, I’m not. I’m way to familiar with this phenomenon. Again, take a look at that BAN thread and tell me you don’t see it.
https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2020/05/24/illinois-native-jo-jorgensen-elected-as-libertarian-presidential-candidate/
https://hotair.com/archives/taylormillard/2020/05/24/jo-jorgensen-wins-libertarian-presidential-primary/
https://heavy.com/news/2020/05/jo-jorgensen-libertarian-nomination/
Jo Jorgensen Wins Libertarian Nomination; Vermin Supreme Places 3rd
Interesting how they skipped from 1st to 3rd. Maybe we should encourage media outlets to do the same in the general election? LOL
Nice job in the Hot Air article. Even got into the prag-radical debate.
Heavy article:
“Jorgensen Won By More than 51%”
uh..wut?
Jorgensen 524 (51.1%)
In the YouTube chat some were just trolling but some did make anti-Semetic comments (as few banned IPR users have been doing do Richard’s site). Most of them though were just ruffled because they believed Vermin and Spike were part of a progressive takeover. Just a bunch of hot air to justify their baseless emotions. If you made a Venn Diagram of the anti-Sarwark and anti-Vermin/spike crowd you would have found a lot of overlap.
yea, but she didn’t win by MORE than 51%.
she won WITH 51%,
Paulie, I’m not denying the phenomenon exists (especially among paleocons and, ironically, democratic socialists), but I don’t think one anonymous idiot with a neopagan handle, commenting repeatedly about how Cohen is a Mossad-planted (((neocon))) and the black guy should have been VP, reveals an antisemitic streak among disappointed Monds fans. Maybe I’m wrong, but it really doesn’t merit further discussion.
True, good catch. I missed it.
I don’t think right wing trolls bitching about Spike on youtube were especially Monds supporters. At best, they saw him as less bad. But many of them would have found some other reason to bitch if he had won the nomination. Most probably wouldn’t have forthrightly said their problem with him is him being black, but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t have been their real issue, or at least a chunk of it.
AD: “Nice job in the Hot Air article. Even got into the prag-radical debate.”
I agree. Just steer clear of the comment section. Good grief.
dammit.
now I gotta look.
It’s not really worth your time unless you’re bored with nothing better to do. Saturday was largely Vermin trolls claiming the process was rigged against Vermin. Some of them carried over to today only this time claiming it was rigged against Spike. Most of the trolling on Sunday was the pseudo Pro-Monds crowd. As Paulie mentioned it wasn’t a pro-Monds feel but anti-Spike. They joined forces with the GOP tourists who seemed convinced Spike was an anarchist (Marxist) agitator. Just a bunch of low lives looking to tear the LP down. Republican interlopers had their panties in a bunch when Spike won. “We won’t vote LP now” crap was getting spewed. Good riddance.
https://thelibertyherald.com/2020/05/24/the-libertarians-have-a-big-problem-and-its-not-the-two-major-parties-its-themselves/
excellent post by Geoffrey Neale.
“I look forward to serving with you as President and Vice President of the United States of America!”
We should all live so long! But now that this obviously unachievable boast is out of the way, Jo and Spike need to concentrate on and conduct a campaign that achieves some measure of acceptance for libertarian ideas and contributes to a growth in Libertarian membership and registration (if that is even possible in 2020 with media promoted mud slinging between Trump and Biden taking all the air out of the room).
Day 3 part 2 https://youtu.be/xhCmfH_qHhI
5hrs 39 Min is beginning of when Nick says he will not chair the Orlando convention, one of many things that makes LNC members assume he will NOT sign the contract.
Thus the LNC is now voting on following motion authorizing ANY LNC member to sign it if the LNC approves it. Merced and (tentatively Harlos) have said they will sign in that case.
http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business/2020/057708.html
I know my main objection to spike was there just wasn’t the same emotional connection I and others had to Spike as there was to Monds. Or the feeling Spike would connect with voters as much.
Spike might get in front of them more because of media skills, but he seems to just babble too quickly and the mind quickly numbs and tunes him out.
I made fun of his bangs several times.
If Monds obviously hadn’t been so tired and unready with patter to promote a VP campaign, he might have won. But it is what it is.
I do worry Spike will try agit prop flaming moves that will make him OUTSHINE Jorgensen in a typical patriarchal macho way and take away from her message (imperfect as it might be). See the ridiculously dramatic photo currently here: https://www.facebook.com/LiterallySpikeCohen/
Don’t worry, I’ll make memes to make fun of him if he does. So will others.
One of my more recent comments in support of inperson national LP conventions, and state ones too, except in extreme circumstances, which I do not think July in Orlando will be, unless the Dems REALLY think they can fuck the people around and blame it all on Trump:
In-person conventions are important for building solidarity among real activists, sharing and learning, and finding out whether candidates for party office are solid people or more wacky than their online presence might suggest. Having it is also a way of showing libertarians aren’t a bunch of CHICKENS scared off by the media/bureaucrat/state complex.
I have a feeling Spikes campaign talked to Jo and hyped what he could do for her media and money wise and that Monds did not make the same kind of push. Maybe she alerted him she would not be making as big a push for him to be VP and thus he was more deflated.
In any case, we’ll be waiting to see Spike deliver on the promises and not just use the campaign opportunistically for personal aggrandisement. Time will tell…
By the way there is some famous literary character of the same name – Spike Cohen. Maybe in comic books. I forget. Look it up…
paulie May 24, 2020 at 09:11
Replied to my: At least Trump stuck to groping adult women.
There are plenty of allegations of Trump going after underage girls, ranging from publicly lusting after his own then teen daughter and his backstage hijinks at teen beauty pageants to hanging out with Epstein and probably sneaking off to the island (passengers on private flights aren’t necessarily recorded) to an accusation of forcible rape by a then 13 year old.
CM replies. I stand corrected sir! One just doesn’t hear about it as much in media any more. Probably because they don’t want to goad Trump into airing millions of dollars in campaign adverts showing Creepy Uncle Joe feeling up little girls CSPAN video collages now freely available on Youtube.
Carol,
I think you are spot on with your comments of 11:04 and 11:28. Both are quite perceptive.
That picture in the link you posted at 11:04 is not a very good idea. I have a hard of time telling people just what his name is.
Jo is, from everything I’ve heard, a genuinely nice person, but she could easily get outshined by Spike, and not in a good way.
Sadly, Libertarians are enthralled with candidates that speak to US, and Spike has that in spades.
Me personally, I think people are loathe to enter into the political arena and feel like they are about to be educated.
What Monds had was the ability to quickly connect with people, people who we have failed to connect with the entire party history, and yes that is because of his color.
My guess is that people are gonna tune Spike out very quickly.
I think Spike’s media talents…while possibly good…are small potatoes when compared to what is necessary for a presidential political campaign. Very, very small potatoes.
On the other hand, I think there was a tiny chance…a little bit less than absolute zero, but more than Spike’s ability to ramp up…that someone with a big checkbook saw a presidential ticket with a woman and a black man with an excellent backstory and would say, “here’s $20 million dollars and a phalanx of connections in the national media industry, let’s see what you can do.”
Sadly true.
Have not fully caught up, but as of where I am now she is saying she needs the party counsel to review some parts and answer some questions first.
Can’t we just do a 2nd part online convention for picking new LNC members, keep the platform as is, and call it a day for the year?
He connects with voters great. That’s actually one of his strengths. He’s had awesome success doing outreach from housing projects to college campuses, you name it.
It’s old news, and no one seems to care. Like Gotti, he has become the “teflon Don” but then again Gotti got got eventually and is spending his golden years in Florence Supermax with no access to see his kids and grandkids disgrace themselves and his family on reality TV. In Trump’s case, though, he’d probably make it to Trump Tower Moscow or Trump Tower Riyadh before he makes it to Florence, and disgracing the family is, shall we say, operationally impossible.
In theory, yes. And perhaps that could still happen if the Orlando dates don’t work out. But some people are dead set against that, including some state parties which control ballot lines.
Also, bylaws and Roberts may not allow it. Since we adjourned to a time and place certain, a subordinate body (LNC) isn’t supposed to be in a position to override the will of the convention, and I heard something said about how they don’t have the power to schedule a second sitting on their own without the vote of the delegates. So it’s going to be a complicated mess.
well, if not for that pesky $2800 federal campaign contribution limit
True.
Didn’t want to get knee-deep in the ins and outs of federal campaign finance law.
Lets just say that we need a minimum amount, X, to run a legitimate presidential election campaign. Clearly X is possible by some mechanism, because the duopoly parties manage to come up with X squared (at least).
So my opinion is we have a better chance of getting to X with Monds and collecting checks than we do with Spike and his personal knowledge. It aint a great chance, its probably one in a million type stuff, but its better than zilch.
IMO we have a better chance with Spike, viral videos, excellent interviews, and great social media/youth outreach.
“IMO we have a better chance with Spike, viral videos, excellent interviews, and great social media/youth outreach.”
Fair enough.
I have nothing in the way of data to prove you wrong. My only response is that youth and people who watch viral videos do not have the sort of money we need.
Then again, I’m sure you’re aware that the chances of the sort of donors I’m talking about actually corralling the amount of money I am talking about and getting it to a hypothetical Jo/Monds ticket is pretty damn near zero.
Frankly, I hope you’re right.
Some of them do, LOL. And the way older media work these days is often driven by social media. If we can make a big splash in social media, that leads to older media stories and interviews. Spike does good interview, so the older folks at home who still write checks as opposed to clicking the donate link can whip out their checkbooks and quills and take a little bit out of their grandkids’ inheritance before it’s too late. This is all relatively speaking of course.
Also, if we can in fact get back to in person campaigning, Spike actually does very well in the hood. Don’t assume that just because he’s not black he can’t connect. He’s not scared to go anywhere and knows how to talk to folks and show he cares. Based on what happened in Wilmington, people who are used to being written off or taken for granted by politicians appreciate someone willing to come to their stoop and actually share concerns. Enough of this leads to community event speaking opportunities and news articles and it can take off from there.
That’s a strong argument.
One thing is for sure: I may THINK JoMo was the way to go for that money, but I know we got a much better shot with JoCo than with Vermin/Monds.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/libertarians-pick-first-female-presidential-nominee
https://www.kgun9.com/news/political/jo-jorgensen-named-first-female-libertarian-presidential-nominee
X~=100,000,000, as a minimum
Duopoly is a factor of 10 times X, not X squared. X^2 would be 1 quadrillion dollars, which doesn’t exist(aggregate global wealth is nowhere near that figure)
Individually, no. Collectively, they could have enough. Demonstrated in the wild by Bernie Sanders and to a lesser extent, Ron Paul. The formula: long time dogged consistency on issues that effectively marginalizes you from the conventional wisdom. Wait for world events to vindicate your contrarian viewpoint(with Sanders, it was the 2009 bailouts. With Paul, the Iraq war). Ride the internet/ social media money bomb wave to competitive fundraising. Of course, it also helps that both managed to get themselves elected in the first place by taking advantage of localized political dynamics.
Waiting on billionaire angel investors to fund the LP has an obvious flaw: billionaires don’t need the LP. One would think the history of the Koch brothers would have put that fantasy to rest by now.
well I wish Spike well. Maybe he proves me wrong. Who knows? Him on the Joe Rogan podcast might be some kind of spark or something.
Is that Vohra’s idea of a concession speech?
“The corrupt LNC tried to silence and suppress us, but we uncompromised radicals drove out the wicked centrists and cleared a path for our ancap comrade to claim the VP slot! (And at least Jo is somewhat tolerable.) Good work, fellow pure candidates.”
Delusions both paranoid and grandiose.
It was a facebook comminique to some of the other losing campaigns. Had he had enough tokens to get an actual concession speech, I would hope and expect that he would have been more diplomatic.
Justin O’Donnell for U.S. Senate shared a link.
Just now ·
Guys we did it! $25,000 raised today for Jorgensen/Cohen 2020!!!!
You know what?
Lets not stop… Stay tuned, I think we can repeat this next week 😉
https://joj2020.com/contribute-to-jo/
https://www.facebook.com/events/278833803291041
On 2020-05-25 18:46, justin.odonnell— via Lnc-business wrote:
In february, the Jorgensen Campaign presented the LNC with a data sharing agreement they intended to keep to should they win the nomination.
I spoke with representatives of the campaign last night, and they brought up that they intend to honor it, even if the LNC didn’t accept the agreement, and would be sharing all their donor and volunteer data in real time with the LNC. They are making party membership growth a primary focus of the campaign.
They intend to give the data to LPHQ regardless if the LNC accepts the agreement, but would prefer that the LNC do accept the agreement and provide instruction to staff to more easilly facilitate the data sharing so that we can best utilize their campaign data to grow party membership.
Justin O’Donnell
LNC Region 8 Representative
as always, I am in lockstep agreement with Tom.
Karl Dickey shared a link.
Admin · 1 hr
Tonight at 7p.m. Eastern see Jo Jorgensen and Spike Cohen interviewed. #Election2020 Libertarian Party
Kryssi Wichers: I’m excited to finally have candidates who can appeal to different demos. Forever our ticket appealed to the same people. Jo will appeal to some of the middle aged to older crowd, moderates and women. Spike will appeal to left leaners, youth and disenfranchised voters.
YAY!!!!!
Yea, I’ve seen that argument before, and it’s fallacious, and frankly insulting to young people.
Ron Paul and Bernie Sanders were both in their seventies and appealed to young people and the disenfranchised more than Spike will.
It’s insulting to suggest that young people in the political arena can’t be talked to unless they are treated to a comedy routine.
Anyone wanna make a bet? I argue Gov Johnson will end up with more youth votes than Jo-Spike does.
lnc-votes@hq.lp.org via googlegroups.com
4:55 PM (24 minutes ago)
to LNC-Business, Nicholas
Dear All,
Thank you to the Convention Oversight Committee for putting together this
afternoon’s call with Harris Rosen and the staff at Rosen Shingle Creek.
Oliver Hall, our special counsel, was able to participate. Mr. Hall and
myself had the opportunity to directly discuss concerns we had with the
existing proposed contract and get a sense directly from Mr. Rosen about
what can be done to get to a mutually beneficial agreement.
Mr. Hayes is going to connect Mr. Hall with the representatives of the
Rosen Group directly so they can work on getting a contract that meets our
concerns and sets the Libertarian Party up for a successful event.
Yours truly,
Nick
____
It depends on how many get to hear the message. But during Kryssi’s show with Spike she had a bunch of people who were never in the LP calling donating, joining and volunteering. Give it a chance to build. It may just surprise you how well it can work.
I’m prepared to be pleasantly surprised, sir.
As I was by Spike’s performance last weekend.
AD,
Apples and oranges. The GJ model will of course garner the most youth votes, but Spike may attract thousands of new NAP Fundamentalists into the vanguard. To NAP “purists,” that’s all that matters.
Bananas.
Most will not be NAP “purists,” certainly not right away, and most will never be (unless and until it becomes far more common that now). But they can be more than just LP voters in one cycle. They can become contributors, donors, party members, activists, future candidates – many things above and beyond just voting for a presidential ticket and moving on.
For once we have a national ticket candidate who has this appeal to a group the LP has not made much of an effort to appeal to. Let’s give it a chance to work.
Meanwhile, tensions on the LNC list are boiling over more and more…
pf: Let’s give it a chance to work.
me: It’s been tried in 84, 92, 96, 00, 04. The State’s much larger and the LP remains an asterisk. Perhaps lightening will strike from a ticket made up of a decent state legislative candidate and a talented clown.
Not holding my breath.
I have confirmed that Mr. Hayes was removed as chair of the Convention Oversight Committee, by National Chair Sarwark. LNC Attorney Hall is negotiating with the hotel to see if a reasonable contract can be obtained.
No, it’s not what was tried those years.
One of many developments on the LNC list recently. Anyone want to write any of them up as an article?
You missed that I wasn’t talking about your ever-present bugaboo of NAP fundamentalism. I’m talking about reaching out to a younger generation that is justifiably angry about the mess prior generations are leaving them, used to sarcastic humor as a way of dealing with politics and world affairs, have much in common in libertarians but are rarely approached by libertarians in terms they relate to, and feel themselves pulled towards Democrats and further left or non-voting.
Vermin and Spike reach a lot of these folks, whereas traditional libertarians – whether extreme or milquetoast – fail to do so, and that’s what I am saying we need to give a chance.
paulie: “I have confirmed that Mr. Hayes was removed as chair of the Convention Oversight Committee, by National Chair Sarwark.”
And from the sound of it, Harlos wants Sarwark’s head on a platter. I’m starting to feel really bad for Merced.
That was George, but I confirm both of those as well. Alex looks like he’s above the brawl and gaining popularity fast.
pf,
Thanks for clarifying. I wonder if there will be a Millenial sensibility coming from Team J/C. I see JJ as a down-the-line NAP Fundamentalist who happens to be a woman. She doesn’t come across like a robot, so that’s in her favor. She claims to be both “principled” and “pragmatic,” though my casual observation is that she doesn’t advocate positions that could plausibly be adopted in the next 5 years.
SC might become the driving force for the campaign’s tone, or maybe he’ll just freelance off to the side.
“I’m talking about reaching out to a younger generation that is justifiably angry about the mess prior generations are leaving them, used to sarcastic humor as a way of dealing with politics and world affairs, have much in common in libertarians but are rarely approached by libertarians in terms they relate to, and feel themselves pulled towards Democrats and further left or non-voting…Vermin and Spike reach a lot of these folks, whereas traditional libertarians – whether extreme or milquetoast – fail to do so…”
paulie, the overwhelming majority of politically active young people take politics and the political process much more seriously than you suggest. They want to fix the system, not abolish it. They want to enfranchise the disenfranchised, not to watch us ridicule the franchise as unimportant.
What turns them off about libertarians is either explicitly or implicitly suggesting we now or at some point in the future want kick granny and poor people to the curb. Prefacing that message with humor and sarcasm will not work.
In other words, to paraphrase Bill Clinton, its the message, stupid. (I don’t mean you personally.)
I understand why Vermin attracted so much support. Its a tacit acknowledgement of how extreme the purer libertarian message is, and, rather than getting angry as RC has suggested many NAPists do, these people took to humor.
I am not optimistic about it working.
Could it garner some attention? Sure.
But eventually voters…young and old alike…want to hear concrete policy positions. No amount of humor will stop the voters from fleeing en masse at that point if they sense any level of “the government should have done nothing in response to the coronavirus, back before the FDA existed, blah, blah, blah.. .
AD,
I think PF’s referring to alienated Millenials and GenZs, not those who’ve already picked a team. Frankly, I really don’t see all that much difference between generational attitudes. Dogmatists especially like to focus their conversion efforts on the young, who tend to be more pliable and gullible.
I would say open minded, not gullible. There is an actual difference in generational attitudes. Comes from different circumstances growing up and different means of communication etc.
“I really don’t see all that much difference between generational attitudes.”
I don’t either.
We have polling on voters and non-voters alike, the very old and the very young.
If there was anything approaching NAPist thinking among the American people, it would have been discovered by now.
The differences in generational attitudes that paulie refers to exist, but they are much more clustered around typical positions than many Libertarians like to think. These Libertarians conjure up an opposition to the state IN PRINCIPLE from dissatisfaction with current policies.
Worse, the more likely someone is to vote, the less likely they are going to consider outlier policies, much less a road to anarchism…explicitly or implicitly argued for.
And you know this how, exactly?
for starters, how about electoral contests all over this country at all levels of government going back as far as I can remember?
I see them voting for legitimate, serious candidates with actual experience, serious policy proposals and legitimate resumes, not comedians baring their chest and offering policies about time machines, replacing the SCOTUS with a guy named Reginald, and Waffle Houses.
Now, I could be wrong. I’ve been wrong before. Spike could be aware of a massive number of youth willing to entertain a farce candidacy, a voting bloc that has never been uncovered before.
We’ll see what happens in November.
A lot don’t vote at all. A lot vote for the D and R just to keep the other out. A higher percentage voted for Johnson and Stein than of older people, but the LP and GP failed to really capture them.
Spike has in fact connected well with youth and disenfranchised audiences. He doesn’t have a huge platform yet, but that’s why it needs a chance to build. It probably won’t be a huge number of votes in a up/down Trump referendum year, but hearts and minds and activists and future donors and candidates matter, not just one cycle votes. The LP is still sputtering along mainly off the youth vote from circa 1980, now graying. It needs to connect with another generational surge.
Like Vermin, Spike is neither all farce nor all serious. It works for some people. Not everyone, and not everyone will hear it, but you can’t get everyone. The LP’s all-serious candidates don’t get everyone either.
It’s an opening. From there, work with people and over time some will open their minds more, some will become activists in the party, some will move on to other aspects of the movement, and so on.
You have to give people who are not well served by status quo parties a reason to vote. Many won’t, but some will. For the people relatively well served by status quo parties, offering a marginally small difference with little chance of winning is not much of an incentive.
welp, as I noted earlier, paulie…I hope you are right and I am wrong.
Sarwark to LNC:
Dear All,
Less than 24 hours after replacing the Convention Oversight Committee
Chair, the contract with the Rosen Group has been successfully
renegotiated. Members of the Convention Oversight Committee and the
Libertarian National Committee are taking the opportunity to review it
prior to my execution of the contract on Monday.
In that same period of time, I have received 110 separate emails from LNC
and COC members, not counting the roughly 100 emails from members
expressing their opinions about my actions.
For the benefit of those who may not be aware, I don’t find the 100th
instance of being accused of “dishonesty,” “abusing power,” or starting a
“shitshow” more persuasive than the first. Calling me a “rat fuck,” as one
member has repeatedly and publicly done has not changed my mind, though it
has provided me more information about the member’s character, temperament,
and fitness for any position in the Libertarian Party.
Members of this committee have the freedom to continue to abuse each other,
obstruct the conduct of the party’s business, and waste time with fruitless
motions to try to spite me. How they choose to use their freedoms has not
gone unnoticed.
Yours in liberty,
Nick
CAH replies:
I observe that the reason the contract was able to be renegotiated is
because you finally re-engaged after multiple times refusing to do so, and
the only reason the opportunity presented itself is because Mr. Hayes
arranged to have Mr. Rosen present. I am very glad things are moving along
but your insinuation here that it is because you unjustly removed Mr. Hayes
is false and not worthy of you. You removed a political opponent simply
because he was a political opponent. I find it surprising that anyone
wants to volunteer on any committee after treatment like that. You could
have renegotiated this weeks ago. Instead you postured on social media on
how it was irresponsible to have a convention at all. Is that no longer
your position? Your actions are mecurial and arbitrary.
Any motions I make are not out of spite. They are what I believe is in the
best interest of the Party. We disagree. That is fine. But I will
correct the record. Not everything is about you.
pf: Comes from different circumstances growing up and different means of communication etc.
me: There might be some of this, but — I dunno — it seems like generational political attitudes are more a function of one’s age. Certainly the Silents were scarred by the Depression, and they tend to save more, for ex. But they have a range of political views. Millenials may well have shorter attention spans than Boomers, on average, but I’m just not convinced that their political views are substantially different due to tech.
I’ve heard that Millenials are more open to socialism, and given how busted they tend to be, it’s somewhat understandable. For them, “socialism” probably means “cancel student debt” and so forth. Perhaps their shorter attention spans makes it harder to sell them lessarchism.
NAP “purism” has always been an extremely difficult sell through the decades, since it is based on a far-fetched construct, as it’s only attractive to the gullible, as I once was.
Of course there’s always a range of views. But there’s an increased opening for both socialist and libertarian views. It depends on how they are marketed.
Only from the bottom of the ticket.
pf,
Are J and C going to run separate campaigns?
As most P and VP candidates they’ll do mostly separate campaigning but some joint. Hopefully they will not get in each other’s way and will find opportunities to help each other out.
I can envisage SC going off-the-rails and embarrassing JJ. My expectation is that both will be so far below the radar that they probably won’t do too much damage to the cause of lessarchism.
There’s an appeal of the ruling of the chair that he had the authority to remove Hayes from the CoC.
JJ is in conflict with herself(or perhaps a staffer). Twitter JJ is tweeting “Riots are the language of the unheard” while website JJ is issuing press releases exhorting people to smartphone record rioters for swift prosecution.
Both have some truth. The anger is understandable but often ends up being misdirected.
Sarwark to LNC: Dear All,
While I appreciate the suggestions from the Convention Oversight Committee,
I’m going to sign the contract negotiated by Mr. Hall, Ms. Ryan, and Mr.
Kraus and approved for signature by Mr. Hall.
Yours truly,
Nick
Sam Goldstein replies:
Sorry, but that contract was not approved by the COC and is void.
Sam Goldstein also replies:
The COC is not suggesting anything. We voted to approve a contract with
specific language and set it to the Chair for signature. He has stated
that he will not sign the contract approved by the COC and thus Ms.
Harlos will be able to sign it before tomorrow’s deadline once the
pending motion is finalized.
Alicia Mattson replies:
I suppose I should thank the chair for at least telling us that he intends
to act outside of his authority…??
I’m not sure whether LNC members are getting the track-changes version or a
changes-accepted version, but let me highlight for you the differences
between the Nick version and the COC version:
1) COC added a sentence in “21. Cancellation”
2) COC added a sentence in “24. Force Majeure”
3) COC added two phrases in “30. Confirmation” noting that this version is
COC-approved and supersedes any previous version
4) COC also struck out the name of Robert Kraus as the person the hotel
expected to sign and replaced with “Officer”, but that wasn’t going to
happen anyway. It was just a placeholder.
To be very clear for our readers, the version Nick says he intends to sign
is the one he believes he can unilaterally cancel. The COC-authorized
version says the cancellation or force-majeure clauses may only be
exercised by an affirmative vote of the LNC.
That is the difference.
Mattson again:
I know the chair is aware of these things, and he may not care, but for the
edification of other readers…
The chair’s authority is limited by LNC policies and directives. Bylaw
Article 6.3:
—————————————————————————-
“The Chair is the chief executive officer of the Party with full authority
to direct its business and affairs, including hiring and discharging of
National Committee volunteers and paid personnel, subject to express
National Committee policies and directives issued in the exercise of the
National Committee’s plenary control and management of Party affairs,
properties and funds.”
—————————————————————————-
The LNC has delegated its authority to approve convention contracts to the
Convention Oversight Committee, and the chair is not authorized to sign one
that did not receive such approval. Policy Manual Section 2.02.7:
—————————————————————————-
“The Convention Oversight Committee shall make recommendations for
convention sites to the LNC, but the LNC shall choose the site. On other
matters concerning the Party’s conventions, the committee shall act on
behalf of the LNC, including:
-conveying requirements to convention planners.
-ensuring the convention meets the Party’s needs.
-reviewing and approving in a timely manner major elements, such as
contracts, the convention budget and the convention program.”
—————————————————————————-
Essentially the chair is telling us that he intends to defy the bylaws and
LNC policies and sign an unauthorized contract.
-Alicia
CAH to LNC:
I call upon the LNC to remove the chair if he forwards a signed contract
outside of his authority.
Alex Merced to LNC:
Just a reminder I’m ready and willing to co-sign a contract. Cell phone is the quickest way to reach me when it comes to that point.
The CoC modification was Fair and reasonable in context of the conversation at this point. Delegates need to book flights and hotels, different groups need to rush to get to planning not just this event but the technology and efforts to allow broad participation and giving them the certainty that this event won’t be canceled under unreasonable circumstances isn’t much to ask for.
I know I am trying my best to be open to all sides and facilitate a result that maximizes what everyone wants, and while I appreciate the Chair coming to the CoC meeting and speaking on Thursday along with the renegotiation of the contract and will continue to see these actions in good faith, I don’t see a good faith reason to not accept the modification. This is not asking for 2/3 or a unanimous vote to cancel, but a simple majority which should be quite attainable if circumstances warrant it.
Alex Merced
Vice Chair of the Libertarian National Committee/LP
This just keeps getting worse. How will all this bickering affect ballot status?
Don’t know yet. We shall see.
CAH to LNC:
When everyone sees the contract revisions they will see why our chair is
objecting. He wants to be cancel unilaterally. That is the one reason to
object. He has been subverting the LNC ever since we decided in a way he
didn’t agree with. If he forwards an unauthorized contract to the hotel,
please consider this a request for co-sonsors for a motion to remove.
Removal must be done at a meeting. My request does not become valid until
he sends over the contract. After that point, once four people
indicate they will join me in this request, we will set a date seven days
out for an electronic meeting.
If he comes to his senses and does not send an unauthorized contract, my
request for co-sponsors is removed.
Sam Goldstein to LNC:
The COC recognizes the LNC Chair’s authority to name the Chair of the
Committee per the Policy Manual. We don’t recognize his ability to
remove a member from the Committee without our approval and that point
is currently the subject of a motion before the LNC.
Mattson: Nick, have you already sent a signed version to the hotel for
counter-signature?
CAH: Tomorrow I intend upon signing the approved version.
If our Chair acts outside his authority he needs to be removed.
CAH: In the case of balance of powers, which is the case here, I believe Ms
Mattson is correct and Mr Hayes is still on the committee.
The Chair can unilaterally remove him as chair but not remove from the
committee.
If the chair is ruling he can, I appeal the ruling of the chair.
And while there is an appeal, he cannot be considered to be removed from
the committee.
what’s the theory as to why NIck wants to sign a contract he can cancel?
RC writes,
“I can envisage SC going off-the-rails and embarrassing JJ.”
I half expect it.
If he does, it’s on JJ. She had her chance on Saturday night to step forward and insist on who she wanted as the v.p. nominee. She was effectively voted the leader of the party at that point. Time to lead.
His detractors seem to think he plans to cancel it because he opposes an in-person convention. And I guess that he plans to sign it to prevent them from executing their competing contract, which they are voting to let other LNC officers sign.
CAH to LNC:
Voting has ENDED for the email ballot 200524-1 Authorize alternate signers
to Orlando contract
All names are listed alphabetically by surname.
Motion: *Move to authorize any Party officer to execute the Orlando
convention contract recommended by the Convention Oversight Committee.*
Co-Sponsors: *Bilyeu, Goldstein, Harlos, Longstreth, Mattson, Merced,
Nekhaila, Phillips, Smith*
Threshold Required: Simple Majority
Voting “aye”: Bilyeu, Bishop-Henchman, Goldstein, Harlos, Hewitt, Lark,
Longstreth, Mattson, Merced, Nekhaila, Phillips, Smith
Voting “nay”: O’Donnell
Express Abstention: None
No Vote Cast: Hagan, Redpath, Sarwark, Van Horn
With a final vote tally of 12-1-0-4 the motion PASSED.
You can view the Secretary’s manual tally of votes here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VntkXkkuQouUiWbt9bnI_TjSMKDiTaDDpvsYtTmJdhE/edit#gid=1074776901Votes
are noted with a link to the actual ballot cast for verification.
CAH to LNC:
As per Ballot 200524-1, a contract executed by Mr. Merced and myself was
transmitted to the hotel.
Some supporters of the VP as well as the P candidate have expressed embarrassment at some statements or actions of the other, but thus far I’ve seen/heard nothing but good things said about the other by the P and VP candidates themselves.
the NPR interview makes me wonder if our prez and vp nominees have had any discussions at all.
on the other hand, quite entertaining LP convention drama, thanks for the updates.
They were interviewed together for LPTV. I would think they talked.
CAH to LNC:
Our chair decides to wage his public relations war elsewhere. He is
claiming that the contract signed by Alex and myself is invalid as it is
not approved by the attorney yet he is submitting one not approved by the
CoC.
Let’s parse this out.
First, general counsel on this very subject made it clear it is not his job
to approve but to advise. He also made that clear to us personally at the
last LNC meeting. We received his advise. Counsel keeps having to be
reminded that he represents the LNC and not our chair. Lastly that section
applies to signing by the chair in the normal course of business. This was
removed from the normal course of business by the LNC authorizing the
signing by other officers with no other conditions as a one-time
exception to the policy manual which passed 12-1. Overwhelmingly.
The gamesmanship by the chair is beyond bonds, and he needs to be removed.
If he signs that contract against the will of both the LNC and CoC, I will
be making the motion to remove. I was not able to hear it myself, but
allegedly staff at stand-up today said Nick confirmed with them (and not us
interestingly) that he will be signing and sending.
So… 40 states and DC? Some states with different tickets? Sounds delightful!
Vermin Supreme is now running for LP national’s judicial committee as part of a slate with Mike Dixon, Mary Gingell, Barbara Howe, Mary Ruwart, Mark Tuniewicz and Jim Turney.
NF, I don’t see any reason to be so pessimistic about ballot access.
https://www.lp.org/ballotaccess is a good map for this time in the cycle, many states have lowered requirements, our usual toughest states at this point have access or lowered sigs required substantially. States are starting to open up to petitioning and there’s a call about it tonight:
https://www.lp.org/notice-of-lnc-executive-committee-meeting-june-1-2020-at-8pm-eastern/
paulie: CAH transparency tutorial
Great crash course in keeping up with the LNC’s dirty, melodramatic laundry.
Posted as an article in 2018, but I’m thinking of posting it again given the drama level on that list right now.
so we’re back to no convention again?
We may be at double paying the Orlando resort, since apparently both the chair and the secretary separately signed slightly different versions of the contract. Hopefully the hotel won’t demand two separate payments for the same convention. Yeah, it’s a mess.
yea, I can’t see a hotel trying that, given the circumstances.
I mean, Nick must REALLY be opposed to an in-person convention to go through all this.
I mean, wow.
He has said he plans to attend, but not to chair. Honestly, I’m not sure what he’s trying to do. Maybe just make it easier to back out if the shutdowns get worse again?
“Maybe just make it easier to back out if the shutdowns get worse again?”
that actually seems to be the most plausible explanation.
Shutdowns, riots, martial law…we’re living in interesting times. It takes several days for an LNC vote. Circumstances may require a quicker operating timeframe.
Sam Goldstein shared a link.
Admin · Just now
Delegates, alternates and attendees!
The hotel reservation link is finally up and running. Room rates are $109.00 per night plus government theft.
Please go to the link below to make your reservation. I am looking forward to meeting each of you at Orlando July 8-12.
Sam Goldstein
Convention Oversight Committee
https://tinyurl.com/LNC-2020
Mattson to LNC:
I think the LNC needs to know about something that happened during the COC
meeting tonight.
The LNC is currently in the middle of email ballot votes, one of which
would determine whether Daniel Hayes is still a member of the COC, and
another of which would change the policy to transfer Mr. Sarwark’s
COC-related powers to the LNC.
The new COC chair is being heavily pressured by the LNC chair, and I’m sure
that after seeing Mr. Sarwark remove the prior COC chair, Ms. Ryan feels
her head could also be on the chopping block if she does not comply with
Mr. Sarwark’s demands.
Tonight Ms. Ryan asked the COC members to recommend someone to fill the
vacancy. She did say she didn’t want to bring it up, but she has been
painted into a corner and ordered by the LNC chair to do it.
Several of us explained that we do not intend to act until the LNC email
ballots play out. I moved to postpone the matter until next week’s
meeting, but because of Mr. Sarwark’s pressure on Ms. Ryan she said she had
to disallow my motion because she’s been ordered by Nick to get it done.
Ultimately the COC refused to act under such improper influence by Mr.
Sarwark.
The LNC policy change about COC appointments is poised to pass, and Mr.
Sarwark apparently wants very much to exercise his power before the LNC
reclaims it.
Only because the majority of us on the COC were appointed by the LNC are we
able to stand up to Mr. Sarwark’s effort. He is in no position to threaten
us. No committee chair should should be made to feel that if she doesn’t
disallow legitimate motions, she will likely be removed from her position.
Ms. Ryan must not be subjected to these intimidation tactics.
CAH argument for her side of the appeal of the ruling of the chair http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business/2020/058191.html
CAH replies:
It is my understanding that they postponed and fully intend upon making a
recommendation. There is no requirement that they do so at your command.
This appointment further is premature as there is a pending appeal.
It is unfortunate that you had to drag such a nice man into this dispute
but this appointment is invalid at this time.
Question for level-headed LP insiders:
Is Sarwark half the monstrous tyrant that certain outspoken committee members are making him out to be, or does an out-of-bounds radical faction simply not like the decisions he has made within his authority as chair and want to oust him so they can have their way in Orlando?
My impressions are based for the most part on the personalities involved, but I’m having trouble as an outsider grasping the cosmic significance of an in-person meeting, maybe because I started paying attention to this controversy only after the Zoom colloquium on parliamentary procedure that some, but not all, are calling a convention. I find it entirely fatuous for any business or non-profit to publish its internal emails, but hey, might as well grab some popcorn and keep hitting that F5 key.
I have the same questions,
I doubt I qualify as either one but will attempt to share my perspective anyway.
I don’t think either one is the case completely, but both have some fire to the smoke. Nick is generally a great guy and activist and has IMO been the best national chair in at least the last couple of decades, and possibly ever. But 6 years trying to herd the intensely fractuous and contentious LNC is enough to make anyone loopy and punchy, especially as a lame duck chair whose term has already been extended past its normally scheduled expiration last month. Nick appears to me to be badly in need of a break from the LNC. He has IMO basically acknowledged that by not running again and by saying he won’t chair the meeting in Orlando.
On the other hand the people on the other side from him on this, some of them his former close friends and allies, and who have clashed amongst themselves on many things in the past, are also by and large great people and activists who are trying to do what they believe is best for the party. Maybe some of them are trying to take advantage of who is more or less likely to show up in person vs online, but I don’t believe that is the primary motivation for most of them.
A lot of people on all sides is allowing a lot of frustration get to them. Some of it has been building for years. Some of it is because a lot of people worked very hard on the original convention plans as well as replacement plans, and have faced a lot of strongly worded criticism and questions from people on one side or another. Some of it is for the reasons people in the larger world are so frustrated right now – losing jobs, losing businesses, losing income or having to work insanely long hours, often in very dangerous and physically and emotionally demanding circumstances; being cooped up for weeks or months on end, alone or with a small group of people experiencing rising tensions; inability to go about daily lives and engage many in normal activities due to closures, and so on.
Some people believe it is important for comraderie, party finances, media coverage, bylaws reasons, potential lawsuits or loss of ballot access if it’s not in person, not having state parties bail due to their own preferences, or because of the challenges of managing the speaker queue and motions online, among other reasons. Other people oppose because of health risks to themselves or others, bad optics, financial or job related difficulties for many members to attend right now, and so on. It’s not an easy issue to resolve and I don’t envy anyone being in a decisionmaking position about it.
I think we pulled off the presidential nomination pretty well considering we have never done anything like that on that scale of participation or time involved on zoom, but then I did not feel a need to speak to or present any motions. Much of the dissatisfaction came from people who felt that was not well managed. A presidential nomination, however, if much easier than platform and bylaws debates, or even than electing the whole LNC and JC. I could see that taking a lot longer than a weekend on zoom and many more people being frustrated if we did that.
I think it’s a good idea for many reasons discussed in past IPR threads at length. For one thing the suspicion, and perhaps reality, of shady backroom dealings thrives far more when interested party members are in the dark. Even if there’s little or nothing to the suspicions, they thrive and feed on themselves in the absence of sunshine. That’s one reason we often advocate for transparency in government, and some of us feel we should model that in our own internal governance. It’s also really helpful to anyone considering running for LNC, now or in the future, to learn some of what they would be signing up for. There are other reasons but that’s a good start.
[Lnc-business] Request for co-sponsors Motion to Suspend Chair
Caryn Ann Harlos carynannharlos at gmail.com
This is not a motion I would typically make unless I was positive it would
win. It is beyond that point, and it is a matter of fundamental principles
that we be called upon to show who stands for these abuses of power or who
does not. I learned today that behind the LNC’s back, either the chair
or staff signed the unauthorized contract. Then there was the interference
with the convention committee last night. Those are the final straws.
So that someone does not complain this request is deficient, here is the
time and date I propose for the meeting to hear this. Enough is enough.
Or do you all want to spend the next six weeks waiting for the chair to
make his next shady move and we have to neutralize.
I have had enough.
Libertarian Party is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
Topic: LNC Meeting
Time: Jun 11, 2020 08:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
Mattson: Also, why did staunch Sarwark supporters on Facebook seem to know which
version had been countersigned 2 hours before even the COC had received a
copy? We were being told that nobody had it yet. But someone did have it
and had time to share it with social media warriors.
-Alicia
CAH:
And I find out Oliver Hall was in on this plan. Oliver represents the
LNC. Not the chair. This explicitly goes against the LNC.
Sarwark:
Dear All,
When Bill Hall resigned in 2009 after 20 years as General Counsel to the
Libertarian National Committee, he included the following admonition in his
resignation letter to the LNC about how they should behave toward their new
counsel.
“I urge you to take care with your new general counsel to avoid trying to
embroil him or her in your latest personal political vendetta. Treat him or
her with respect. Don’t assume he or she is one of the bad guys, and attack
him or her, just because he or she was asked to and gives legal advice that
might adversely impact your personal political advantage.
Your general counsel is there to give advice on legal risks. It is okay to
listen to your general counsel’s advice, consider the facts as you know
them, and in good faith decide to ignore that advice in proceeding to act,
because you believe that the political good to be advanced by taking action
outweighs the legal risks of doing so. However, if you make a habit of
publicly questioning the accuracy of your general counsel’s legal advice,
and disparaging his or her opinion, don’t be surprised if he or she decides
that the less-than-market and often-late pay for acting as your general
counsel doesn’t merit the unpleasantness and liability risk of doing so.”
Yours in liberty,
Nick
good rundown at 14:01, paulie.
helps me see both sides.
it also makes me realize there’s no damn way I would run for any party office of any kind.
Alex Merced:
wait..what? Alex is quitting?
Yeah, I once made the mistake of accepting a request to serve as an LNC alternate (2012-4) and running very unsuccessfully for at large. That’s not happening again. Done at the state level as of this year too. It’s purely rank and file for me now.
No, just saying he won’t take sides in the current drama and arguments. He will preside in Orlando and not run again, at least this time, is my understanding.
I also know I’m an outlier philosophy-wise I’d have close to zero chance of getting elected and even less than zero getting anything I see as valuable accomplished. It would be pointless.
Oddly I find myself in the same boat.
Thank you for such a detailed explanation, Paulie.
“I think it’s a good idea for many reasons discussed in past IPR threads at length. For one thing the suspicion, and perhaps reality, of shady backroom dealings thrives far more when interested party members are in the dark. Even if there’s little or nothing to the suspicions, they thrive and feed on themselves in the absence of sunshine. That’s one reason we often advocate for transparency in government, and some of us feel we should model that in our own internal governance. It’s also really helpful to anyone considering running for LNC, now or in the future, to learn some of what they would be signing up for. There are other reasons but that’s a good start.”
Oh, I understand the rationale for it, but I still think it’s a pretty horrible idea. Seems like more like a platform for LNC members to posture, flex, and try to win sympathy and support during conflicts such as these. I imagine they just communicate by private email if they don’t want other officers or interested parties to know what they’re up to. So it appears to be well-intentioned, ultimately ineffective transparency theater that just ends up airing petty squabbles and other dirty laundry (that all organizations have, but most choose not to share with the public). A lot of nonprofits are committed to transparency and open communication. If you know any that go so far as to publish their in-house emails, I’d be interested to learn more.
I understand the arguments for and against..I was one of the people who pushed for making it public before and during my time on the LNC. Personally I like knowing what my representatives are up to. Congress has floor debates and many committee hearings on CSPAN and may town councils, county commissions and other organizations have emails and other proceedings subject to Sunshine Acts.
“Oddly I find myself in the same boat.”
well, we both think the party is making the same mistake and we have the same target audience, just different messages.
So maybe not so odd.
For those interested in the Libertarian National Committee, Caryn Anne Harlos just put forth a motion to impeach and remove (“suspend” is the bylaws phrase) Nick Sarwark as LNC chair. The motion already has co-sponsors. Amusingly, the motion does not yet have a text.
Remove on what grounds? Has he actually done anything against the bylaws?
Also, does that require just a simple majority?
The motion is to have a meeting Jun 11 to consider such a motion. Motions can be offered during the meeting. They need 6 sponsors to have a vote on having the meeting. Iirc it’s simple majority to call the meeting and 3/4 to actually remove. I could be wrong.
Motion to have a meeting now has enough sponsors to proceed, although the date and time are currently up in the air.
I’ve posted a sampling of the verbal battles that have led to this point above. Among other things there is a dispute about him signing a different version of the hotel contract for Orlando than the one approved by the COC while the LNC was holding a vote which passed to allow other officers to sign the COC’s preferred contract, and removing former chair Daniel Hayes from the COC and replacing him while the LNC was in the middle of voting to appeal his ruling that he could do that at all. There’s much more but those are the recent highlights. Scroll up for some of the much more, or visit the LNC list yourself.
That’s a topic of much debate. There might be a judicial committee appeal if the votes are there for removal, which there may not be. Or perhaps a judicial appeal of some of his actions, or who knows what. It might wait to see if an undisputed judicial committee is elected in Orlando. Or not.
This might be entertaining to watch with a big bowl of popcorn, except these shenanigans could well ruin any momentum the Party hopes to generate in 2020.
A few thoughts: how many contracts arrived at Rosen Hotel HQ? If more than one, Rosen management will be trying to figure out just whom their client is. If just one contract, then Rosen is entitled to act on the terms and accept that whomever signed it had the authority to do so. Should Rosen later not get paid in full for whatever it did under the terms of the contract, Rosen will come looking for someone to sue. LNC members might want to ask themselves if they are ready to be personally liable if it turns out Rosen’s discovery process turns up an alleged intent to defraud Rosen because the LNC failed to follow its own procedures in allowing an unauthorized contract to be signed. The “cure” would be for the Party to then pay Rosen’s demands or face a nasty, long and public lawsuit that could, at the least, embroil the Party’s officers in unwanted personal legal measures. This isn’t just shits and giggles, folks.
From what I have gathered, Rosen has signed the contract favored by Nick Sarwark, party counsel Oliver Hall, at least some LPHQ staff and (I think) the new COC chair, BetteRose Ryan. Other LNC and COC members are unhappy, to say the least. If I misunderstood any of that, someone please let me know.
The sponsors for the Sarwark removal meeting are Goldstein, Harlos, Mattson, Phillips, Smith, and Longstreth.
When you vote for new LNC members, these are people to De-elect.
561-523-2250
New time for the meeting where they will vote on removing Nick, if they get a majority vote to hold the meeting:
Libertarian Party is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
Topic: LNC Meeting
Time: Jun 13, 2020 04:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/82741013890
I never cease to be amused when NAP Fundamentalists bicker-to-the-death over procedural matters. Looks like SMC is linked with the Misesians, which is possibly even MORE amusing.
Who or what is SMC? Spike? Someone or something else?
It appears I may have been wrong in my understanding about the proposed e-meeting to remove the chair a week from today. As I now read it, the 6 co-sponsors are enough by themselves to call the meeting, without an additional majority vote to allow the meeting to take place. It still remains my understanding that the actual motion for removal listing the causes for removal does not have to be presented before the meeting, but can be presented at the meeting, along with other motions. While I do not know it for a fact, I predict they will fall short of the 3/4 required for actual removal of the chair. They may or may not have enough votes to e.g. overrule the ruling of the chair about removing Hayes from COC, but the chair has ruled that dilatory, so I’m not sure how that can be further resolved.
Am I still getting any of that wrong? Anyone know?
I sure don’t.
I’m sure many people don’t. I follow this stuff pretty closely, yet still get confused. Hoping someone who does in fact know will read and comment. If not, we shall see what develops in a week, and further from that.
Sarwark to LNC:
Dear All,
There are a number of false statements circulating on social media and
among members of this board. While this email will be of no help to those
LNC members who have said I am dishonest and acting in bad faith, it may be
of some use to people who have not yet sunk that low.
Let’s begin with ones from an email that an internal caucus sent to all of
their members:
“I’m sure most of you know that current LNC Chair Nick Sarwark tried to
kill the in-person Orlando convention during the online presidential
nomination proceedings over Memorial Day weekend.”
False. I successfully presided over my third convention as Chair, working
through obstruction and delay to get through the nomination of President
and Vice President. When that work was over, I took the opportunity to let
the body know that I would not preside over the second sitting, and that if
they wanted to select a replacement, they could do so. Since that was a
statement on the issue of whether to adjourn immediately or take up the
election of Chair, I passed the gavel to Mr. Merced. Even had the Chair
election been taken up, it would not have cancelled a second sitting.
“What you may not know is that he has since said that he refuses to take
part in an in-person convention and refused to sign the contract with the
host hotel.”
First, I will attend the second sitting of the convention in Orlando and
will participate as a delegate from New Hampshire. The rest of my family
will not be coming to Orlando because our country is still in the midst of
an infectious pandemic and our family has chosen to minimize the exposure
of ourselves and others to air travel and large meetings.
Second, I refused to sign a contract with a $105K liquidated damages
provision because it presented a great risk to the Libertarian Party. Once
a contract that removed that provision, reduced the room rate by another
$20 per night for our members, and lowered the required hotel rooms (though
keeping a larger block available), I tried to move quickly to execute it.
The four LNC members of the Convention Oversight Committee then attempted
to put in provisions damaging to the Libertarian Party, in breach of their
fiduciary duties and over the objection of the two people who have to
approve a contract of that size under the policy manual, myself and Mr.
Hall. The provisions they urgently decided had to be in the contract were
both ones that would cause a seven-day delay in the event of an emergency
that required cancellation, because it would require approval of the whole
LNC, which is not possible in a period shorter than an email vote or
electronic meeting. There is no argument that these provisions put the
Libertarian Party in a better position, they were designed to increase the
risk of cancellation.
“He also removed Dan Hayes, chair of the Convention Oversight Committee,
from that committee for not sharing Sarwark’s views on an in-person
convention.”
Mr. Hayes was removed based on a number of factors, some of which were in
my email announcing his removal. He has been personally abusive to
colleagues and members of the Libertarian Party staff, which combined with
his negotiating against the best interest of the Libertarian Party and
taking weeks to finish a contract that should have been ready to sign at
the first sitting showed that he is less effective in the role than Ms.
Ryan, who successfully produced the Orlando convention without screaming or
yelling at the rest of the members of her committee.
“But in the meantime, Sarwark added a clause to the contract that would
allow him to cancel the convention unilaterally, and then instructed a
staff member to sign that contract, resulting in two different contracts
being sent back to the hotel.”
There was no clause added by myself or at my direction to the contract
approved by our Special Counsel, approved by myself, and approved by the
hotel. The contract transmitted by the Secretary had four clauses added to
it the day before the contract was due by the four LNC members of the
Convention Oversight Committee, clauses that were not ever present in any
of the versions of the contract they had insisted was “ready to sign.”
Going from having a vote to force someone to sign a contract with excessive
risk to trying desperately to stop me from signing a much improved contract
without a poison pill is tough to do in less than 24 hours, but Mr.
Goldstein, Ms. Mattson, Ms. Adams, and Ms. Bilyeu moved very quickly.
To clear up a legal misunderstanding, getting the $105K liquidated damages
clause removed does not make cancellation free of risk or cost to the
Libertarian Party. It means that the hotel would have to show what their
actual damages are in the case of a cancellation. If a hurricane hits, it’s
better for us to be on the hook for the actual cost of cancellation, not a
$105,000. Reducing the risk for the party is the fiduciary duty we all have
to the party, which is why it was so confusing to me to see two other
officers of this board try to increase the risk to the party by signing a
contract that increased the risk to the party.
“There is now a motion from Harlos before the LNC, with six co-sponsors, to
suspend Sarwark so we can go ahead with the planned convention without
further roadblocks.”
Let me state clearly that the changes I made to the Convention Oversight
Committee membership are to make that committee work more efficiently to
make this convention a success. Mr. Rosen called me on the day the contract
was executed to reiterate his commitment to having this exceed even our
highest expectations, a sentiment I reciprocated in our conversation. It’s
no secret that I think a mass in-person gathering during a pandemic is
stupid. But as long as I’m Chair, if the delegates decide to do something
stupid, it’s my duty to help them do the stupid thing as efficiently and
with as little damage as possible.
My last point, which I will place in all capital letters just to make sure
nobody misses this truth:
I DID NOT INTEND TO CANCEL THE CONTRACT WHEN NEGOTIATING IT, WHEN EXECUTING
IT, OR AT ANY POINT PRIOR TO THE SECOND SITTING IN ORLANDO.
I’ve been exceedingly disappointed at the number of people on this LNC who
have my email and phone number, who know how to ask a question, who chose
and continue to choose to believe lies about my actions and intentions and
can’t summon the human decency to ask me directly. My disappointment with
the behavior on this LNC will be channeled as a delegate, as it was in 2012.
Yours in liberty,
Nick
There have already been a bunch of responses to that on the LNC list; I won’t post them here unless I see a particularly relevant one, but you can see them on the list public page linked above in comments.
Nick posted the same message at https://www.facebook.com/groups/www.lp.org/permalink/701673150656449/
My replies there:
Hi Nick, thanks for the update. Still reading but this IMO – while it is obviously your and your family’s business – does not fully make sense from how I understand the transmission of the virus works: “I will attend the second sitting of the convention in Orlando and will participate as a delegate from New Hampshire. The rest of my family will not be coming to Orlando because our country is still in the midst of an infectious pandemic and our family has chosen to minimize the exposure of ourselves and others to air travel and large meetings.”
Granted, if you bring the family, there’s an even greater chance of infection; but if you do become infected (of course hopefully you won’t), you would be highly likely to spread it to them asymptomatically when you get back, and it could be weeks before you would develop symptoms – if you ever do – or test positive – if tests are available, and if you don’t get a false test result; during all of which time you can still spread it to others. Also, is Valerie still running for at large, and if so does she plan to run in absentia? Will she even be able to vote for herself?
2nd message: OK, finished reading, Will follow any replies and discussion on LNC list. Personally, I would like to participate in the second sitting if remote participation is allowed, but will not be traveling. If remote participation is not allowed I hope a gavel to gavel stream will be available, and I’ll try to provide my usual liveblog coverage. Disappointed that it’s the exact same weekend as the Greens, but I’ll prioritize the LP and hopefully someone else can cover the Greens for us at https://independentpoliticalreport.com/
There is no actual motion. The co-sponsors do not appear to agree on the purpose of the meeting. At least one of them said he only agreed if there was another motion attached. There is no Bill of Particulars, so there is no way for the accused to prepare a defense.
It’s a fine Libertarian lynch mob.
If I were an LNC member, which I am not, I would have a motion arising, namely a motion to suspend the Secretary.
Again, the motion is just a call to have a meeting. Any motion with a bill of particulars can be presented between now and then or at the meeting itself. It probably won’t matter, since I don’t think it would pass the high threshold to pass. Some less extreme motion may pass, but I doubt anything can take effect before the convention anyway since Nick rules all their motions out of order or dilatory, they always appeal, etc. The appeals and appeals of appeals seem unlikely to be worked out before convention.
If things get appealed to the JC, it may not have time to consider them before then. Even if it does, there is a question whether there is in fact a legitimate JC at this time or not.
A motion to suspend the Secretary, were one to be floated, seems equally unlikely to me to succeed for similar reasons.
Nick’s post quoted above is also at https://www.facebook.com/nsarwark/posts/1973856626081015
Ken Moellman
Admin · 4 hrs
Over half of the room block at Shingle Creek has now been reserved. Get your convention package and your hotel room, and updates on the convention at LNC2020.com
Rather than escalating to removing/suspending the chair or secretary, when both positions are up for election next month, I agree with Joe Bishop-Henchman at https://www.facebook.com/groups/189510455174837/permalink/680636469395564/ :
My comment there:
I agree. It may be spitting in the wind, but you should say these things on the LNC list as much as possible (other than campaigning for chair, which I think is more appropriate here and other places than there).
“Again, the motion is just a call to have a meeting. ” I a sympathetic with what you want, but I don’t believe that’s consistent with the LNC discussion. Admittedly Harlos is not always as clear as one might like, but I believe there is a motion to suspend intended, the meeting occurring because it must happen in person.
I think it’s a waste of time TBH. But I understand why people on various sides are upset with each other and why they are so passionate. I just also think it’s counterproductive.
As far as what the motion is, all I saw was a call for a meeting, and some discussion as to the reasons for the meeting. But the reasons were not part of any formal motion I saw; however they could be, at that meeting, or at some point between now and then.
I saw no notice that there is, or will be, an email ballot after the 6 co-sponsors were identified. So I am interpreting that to mean that what they needed 6 sponsors for was to just have a meeting, and that no further action is required until the meeting takes place, and that 6 cosponsors is sufficient to have the meeting happen.
Does anyone know 100% for sure that I am misinterpreting that, and if so how or why? Is there a vote that’s supposed to happen between now and the meeting? If so, why has it not been announced? Or, was it announced and I missed it?
Here is the original call for the meeting:
https://hq.lp.org//pipermail/lnc-business/2020/058230.html
The first part to me appears to just be an informal explanation, not part of any formal motion:
The remainder of the message is what I interpret as the motion:
Time subsequently changed.
They got their 6 cosponsors, but this was not followed up by the usual
“We will have an email ballot starting (time) ….”
So that leads me to believe that the motion was simply to have the meeting, and that everything else is just arguments for the motion. Given that no email ballot has been announced, or announced that it will be announced, this leads me to believe that the 6 cosponsors is enough to call the meeting.
So what am I getting wrong and why?
Paulie, A reasonable interpretation, btu I believe that another one is better. I went back and looked at the emails. I believe the key part is the opening message
Harlos: Request for co-sponsors Motion to Suspend Chair
This is not a motion I would typically make unless I was positive it would
win. It is beyond that point, and it is a matter of fundamental principles
that we be called upon to show who stands for these abuses of power or who
does not. I learned today that behind the LNC’s back, either the chair
or staff signed the unauthorized contract. Then there was the interference
with the convention committee last night. Those are the final straws.
So that someone does not complain this request is deficient, here is the
time and date I propose for the meeting to hear this. Enough is enough.
Or do you all want to spend the next six weeks waiting for the chair to
make his next shady move and we have to neutralize.
I have had enough.
Libertarian Party is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
————-
So the motion is to suspend the chair. The motion, as opposed to its topic, was never actually stated. There is no Bill of Particulars. However, the request for cosponsors is cosponsors on a motion to suspend the chair.
Sounds like repetition without addressing my argument. I’ll move on.
The motion to overturn the ruling of the LNC chair to removed Daniel Hayes from COC is overturned; 6-9-2. The LNC chair’s newly appointed COC chair has publicly stated she is opposed to working with Mr. Hayes, although she has allegedly privately said otherwise. The LNC chair has also stated that this appeal is dilatory. There is disagreement about what the rules governing this are, with both sides arguing from policy manual, bylaws, etc. The LNC chair has also appointed a replacement for Mr. Hayes, former LNC chair Jim Turney. So, at this point, it is unclear how it will be determined in practice whether Mr. Hayes, Mr. Turney, both or neither is on COC.
Utah and Nevada have notified the LNC of their intent to disaffiliate if full remote participation, by the delegates credenilaled for the May 23-25 meeting, is not accommodated for the planned July session.
That’s drastic, but I agree with Utah and Nevada here.
By the way, I thought full remote participation (assuming the in-person convention does happen) was well-supported by the party?
Let’s see… ballot status in 40, 41 states plus DC? Different ticket in a couple more? Hmmm…
Addressed that earlier for anyone who cares to scroll up.
Potentially technical issues. And it will be up to the people who show up in person. We’d need 2/3 plus 1, irrc.
pf: What or who is SMC?
me: We all used to use the term SMC for Starr/Mattson/Carling here on IPR some years ago.
John Phillips Jr.
9 mins
So lots of people want details of plans to allow remote participation of some kind in Orlando.
I do not have them as many plans are still being worked on. I will however give you what my suggestions were. Mine were based on not reinventing the wheel and the Keep It Simple Stupid principle.
Election votes through election buddy, same as we already did and it worked, and got better ad we went.
Standing votes via some form of electronic polling.
Deliberation. The hardest part as we saw on memorial day. Accomplished through statements sent in to some form of volunteers like delegation chairs or others. I said I would happily be one of those volunteers. I say volunteers not just chairs in the case of entire states that cannot travel. These volunteers would get in line at the mics just like normal, this is something that has been done many times previously for statements from people not physically present.
Other plans are more elaborate, I do not know all their ins and outs so will refrain from comment so I do not do them an injustice.
I am not married to my plan, but it is one that I have discussed with others and seems the simplest to implement.
I will be flexible in my support of any plan that looks workable.
All the arguing is unnecessary at this point, and in many cases counter productive. Lets all relax a little and have a great get together, and be as inclusive of our compatriots as we can be.
John Phillips Jr. Alex is working hard on it. We spent an hour on the phone last night discussing all the things he is working on, after my 20 min phone call with Joe Bishop-Henchman, after my 30 min phone call with Erin Adams, after my conversations with several other people – all about remote voting/participation options.
Lots of people are working on it. We will have options. Then its up to the delegates.
Erin Adams: the coc has been working with it experts to prepare for remote contingencies since before the first sitting.
Ah, that’s right. Thanks for jogging my memory.
Alex Merced
1 hr
To clarify re: the efforts to enable online participation there are multiple efforts.
The CoC is preparing some options which I think They have been doing for some time.
I prepared a prototype for what I thought would be an improved method of handling an online speaker queue, Will McVay of Deleware has taken those ideas and is extending them into another more robust option.
Daniel Fishman, TJ Ferreira and others are also working on robust efforts that are promising. There’s a lot of people working on different possibilities and I want to reiterate the CoC is among them.
I personally am for remote participation but we need to unify as a national party to get these motions passed at the National Convention to make them happen. So I do hope we can shift the discussion to building the bridges to make passing the required motions smooth as possible which would mean delegation chairs talking to each other to make the votes on the floor happen smoothly.
I am making calls to different parties about other related logistics. Trust me, everyone wants to make the convention a success and enable the will of the delegates, but right now we need to all come together to make that happen.
Alex Merced
P.S. I know times are tense and we all have heightened feelings about a lot of what’s going on, but the more we burn bridges and cast each other in clouds of resentment the harder it will be to get anything of substance done. I ran on the phrase “Let’s be Libertarian Together” let’s spend the next few weeks trying to reinvigorate that sentiment so we can refocus on the opportunities before us.
Alex Merced Essentially making this happens requires three main considerations
1. The technology to allow delegates communicate and vote
2. The motion to either ammend the bylaws or temporarily allow remote participation which require a 2/3 vote to suspend the rules which is why we really need to focus on building bridges with each other
3. Credentialing those delegates
Alex Merced
1 hr
Regardless how you feel about current going ons I just want to take a moment to recognize what the CoC has been tasked with. They spent two years pouring their heart and souls into Austin to see a pandemic throw all that work down the drain to redo it from scratch in a fraction of the time, that is tremendous pressure.
We all want this to be successful, in doing so we should be asking how we can each contribute to these unprecedentated times and not add to the already existing pressure.
1. Delegation chairs who have delegates that want to participate remotely start making a list of those delegates and which of them can participate in satellite location and which would prefer to do so from home. (I imagine this would be good to have to hit the ground running once any motion is passed)
2. Talk to your delegations about how they feel about online voting and what form is there a consensus cause remember it requires 2/3 suspension of the rules to consider and that’s not going to happen because we posted on Facebook.
3. For those delegates who will be in Orlando, I’m sure there will be need for volunteers so saying you are available would be cool.
4. Begin learning about what will be on the platform and bylaws agenda now and discussing it so that can be done efficiently to make so we can get through it and not have rehash things that could’ve been addressed prior by looking up the proposals.
5. Advocate for your candidates but one things I think is pretty clear being negative towards other candidates eliminates any chance of your preferred candidate being a second or third choice. So whoever your candidate is don’t do them a disservice by being a jerk to others even if they are doing so.
They are? How so?
pf,
I based this assessment on GP’s post above: “The sponsors for the Sarwark removal meeting are Goldstein, Harlos, Mattson, Phillips, Smith, and Longstreth.”
Perhaps I’m reading the LNC-ology incorrectly, but Harlos is certainly a NAP “purist” of the Misesian strain and Mattson is the M in SMC. CAH coined the term “depth charges” to cement indelibly the twisted work of the 88 20-somethings + Rothbard and Bill (turned R operative) Evers in the so-called “Dallas Accord” that some believe is sacrosanct for inexplicable reasons.
Strangest of bedfellows, near as I can tell.
I see the “Mises” (Rockwell/Hoppe) caucus as more far right than purist per se. For example, they are in favor of getting rid of the pro-choice and migration rights planks so as to bring in more rightwingers. Mr. and Mrs. Starr are also somewhat right-friendly, but I’m not aware of any particular affinity they have for the Rockwell-North-Hoppe cult. I seem to recall that they were involved with the reform/prag faction opposing radicals. Haven’t heard anything from or of Mr. Carling in a few years as far as I can remember. Alicia and Aaron have been on the opposite side from Nick in many factional battles for years. Caryn Ann used to be allied with Nick most of the time but not as much lately. She used to clash with Alicia a lot but lately they have been agreeing a lot.
“I see the “Mises” (Rockwell/Hoppe) caucus as more far right than purist per se.”
agreed, 100%.
I would add, however, that that far right element has been dragged in…probably inadvertently…by the purists. And why wouldn’t they? They see a party willing to die on the hill of defending the homophobic christian baker…or worse, even if its nowhere near the top 10 list of issues the country was facing at the time.
Of course they are going to be attracted to such a party.
Weinberg:
I strenuously object? Is that how it works? Objection. Overruled! No, no, no… I strenuously object! Oh, I should reconsider then!
Galloway:
I got it on the record.
Weinberg:
You got the court thinking we’re afraid of the doctor. Christ, you even had the judge saying he was an expert! You object once, so we can say he’s not a criminologist. You keep after it, our cross looks like a bunch of fancy lawyer tricks. It’s the difference between paper law and trial law!
Mattson to LNC list:
UPDATE: After one week of our room block being open, we’ve booked over 60%
of our room block.
-Alicia
Aside from that, more of the LNC and COC chair vs other LNC members who are also COC members and their LNC allies. This time over the audiovisual contract…
lol, bullshit.
Jesus, there is a global police protest movement afoot, and you and Bob sound like the same broken record…A couple of ostriches with your heads buried in the ground still squawking about purism. Your officially extinct, brah
#abolishThePolice
The impetus of the Mises Caucus was Nick Sarwark’s delicious social media troll game. I don’t agree with Sarwark on everything, but he gives no truck to right wing identity politics, and he often goes out of his way to antagonize the PaulBots. The organization intent of the Mises Caucus more or less was to oust Sarwark from the Chairmanship.
The right wing entryism is a symptom of 60 years of conservative fusionism. The right wing elements are always going to be a trailing indicator of the conservative movement. And the conservative movement right now is Donald Trump. The progenitors of the post WW II classical liberal/libertarian movement all suffered to some extent from leftist derangement syndrome, and few, like Rand and Mises, suffered from an incurable case of anti-leftist dementia. For some, libertarianism has been (wrongly) viewed as the place to be if you really want to own the libs. And recent events have made this split quite stark, with 50% cheering/applauding the police protests while the other 50% whine about the looting and rioting. Thankfully, the LP doesn’t appear to be reflecting that 50/50 split.
What dL wrote on June 10, 2020 at 23:00:
99% agreement with this. Well said.
What dL wrote on June 10, 2020 at 22:21:
I’m not entirely sure what the connection is between the global police protest movement and internal LP politics is (try to contain your seething rage and respond if you can) but if I understand what you are suggesting, that the Floyd murder and the ensuing protests provide the LP an opportunity to reach out to the protesters and protests sympathizers, I can assure you that, no matter how vociferously the LP shouts about police brutality and how rotten the criminal justice system is to its core, its the dogma that will keep those people away. In that respect, Bob and I are 100% correct.
Its sheer lunacy to suggest a social media blitz about racist law enforcement is going to obviate the political suicide of arguing for…or implying…an end to the welfare state, social security, Medicare/Medicaid, or even an elimination of the minimum wage or the abolishment of public schools. Its not gonna happen, period, I don’t care how eloquent you are about the violence inherent in the system.
Not sure what your overall message because you mostly just attack, but I can make this absolute guarantee: you put my version of the libertarian message: e.g., a UBI as a replacement for the welfare state, reforming SS maybe in a means-tested manner, some kind of federalized voucher system for public schooling and health care insurance/expenses, and a discussion of how reparations could work…in addition to reforming the criminal justice system…up against the dogmatic libertarian message in front of the people who are in the streets protesting the Floyd murder, and my message will win 90%+ of their support. Guaranteed.
You or anyone else could argue that my message is unworkable or “not libertarian” but frankly I don’t give a crap. One thing I have concluded lo’ these many years of being in the LP is that if Libertarians are upset with a message, its probably two things: pretty marketable and pretty upsetting to the right-wing entryists none of us like.
I’ve had so-called Libertarians flip their lid when I tell them I stand for the continued funding of Planned Parenthood as we try to extricate the government from the health care industry. In fact, paulie can attest that he tagged me in a Facebook discussion on the issue about a month ago because he knows that I do, and within the span a couple minutes of the debate, the “Libertarians” who were aghast at my stance were calling me a leftist virtue-signaler, the mangled result of a post-modern “liberal” college education, and foolish for thinking Nancy Pelosi is going to defect to the LP because of my stance. Their comments could have come out of the mouths of Faux News talking heads and no one would have know the difference.
I’ve had Libertarians flip their lid when I tell them the homophobic baker will indeed have to “Bake The Cake,” because that’s not a hill we should die on now, if ever, and my fellow Libertarians act as if I care that they get upset. I don’t. Smoking these people out is precisely part of my goal. Whether they are right-wing entryists or simply inflexibly dogmatic, I don’t really much care. Their vitriolic responses put them in the same boat.
Same broken record straw man. The only person using the the police protests as a pretext to talk about the “welfare state” and social security is you.
Lol. I would take that bet, but you don’t have any money to bet. You guarantee is room temperature air.
“The only person using the the police protests as a pretext to talk about the “welfare state” and social security is you.”
Eventually those people are gonna vote for someone. They’re not going to vote for someone who screams about police brutality then calls for an elimination of the social safety net.
“Lol. I would take that bet, but you don’t have any money to bet.”
lol you coward.
Saturday meeting to consider removing the chair cancelled as a couple of the sponsors withdrew:
https://hq.lp.org//pipermail/lnc-business/2020/058534.html
https://hq.lp.org//pipermail/lnc-business/2020/058536.html
https://hq.lp.org//pipermail/lnc-business/2020/058543.html
https://hq.lp.org//pipermail/lnc-business/2020/058555.html
Libertarian National Clown Caucus — there are a bunch of them, all told — finally notices that if you had trouble getting to six votes getting to 12 may not work.
Interesting question: The meeting has *already been called*. It now belongs to the body, not to the people making the call. Can it properly be canceled like this?
As CAH explained a majority of the committee had to ask to cancel the meeting. They did.
CAH is not chair. Sarwark is chair
I didn’t say she is chair. She pointed out a bylaws or manual provision that a meeting can be cancelled if a majority of members ask to cancel. A majority then went ahead and did exactly that. Therefore it was cancelled.
The Secretary can point out there is a majority for something, but the chair must actually rule.
Not sure what you are talking about. The chair does not usually rule anything when the Secretary announces the results of email voting. No one is planning to be in any meeting about removing the lnc chair tomorrow. I don’t expect the chair to suddenly rule that they are having the meeting anyway after a majority of the lnc said they won’t have it. You even posted about the meeting being cancelled on FB. So I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
Not much new there. A/V contract and possible appeal of chair’s ruling that the motion changing the authority on the Orlando contract was out of order.
Has the LNC considered having the Part II Convention in CHAZ (the nonarchy pod formerly part of Seattle)? It seems highly appropriate….
No, they’re pretty set on the golf resort hotel in Orlando.
Chaz is not a nonarchy anything. It’s a rather poor attempt to create a government on a small scale. They have people extorting the equivalent of taxes and security people stopping people and checking id, etc. The larger government has not allowed them to secede, and won’t. It’s unlikely to last very long.
Yes, and therein lies the challenge of nonarchism. Statelessness is a vacuum that States will seek to fill.
Lessarchism points in a stateless direction, but it recognizes that the end state won’t and can’t be achieved any time soon.
There are many much better and longer standing examples, but we’ve been over them too many times and I’ve long since lost interest in going over and over them yet again. You are probably right that wider scale is a long ways off, although not necessarily, as when change does happen sometimes it may be very fast. We shall see. I’m fine with directional change in the meantime. We’ll see how far we can go of we ever get going in that direction.
Where are you getting that from? fox News?
No, I don’t click on their links. But I did read a few news reports about that from more than one source.
Even supposing those news reports are untrue, it’s still not a nonarchy anything. No level of existing government has abandoned their territorial claims there, and won’t. Those claims will be enforced sooner or later, likely relatively soon, and there’s no likelihood of more than token resistance. It’s completely economically dependent on the larger government which surrounds it on all sides. It’s a temporary, symbolic rebellion.
So effectively we don’t disagree, rather than the untestable, unfalsifiable prediction “can’t and won’t” and the vague “any time soon.” But I agree with moving in a stateless direction, agree that gradually/soft landing is preferable and agree that near term — ie less than decades – is unlikely, and not where I want to focus my time and attention. So it seems to me that we should work on getting the ball rolling in the direction we agree on and seeing how far it goes if it ever does; whereas you keep wanting bringing up and arguing about this theoretical and likely far off end state and/or questionable tradeoffs. Neither seems the best use of time to me, but to each their own.
Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone would probably be a good place for libertarians to go to see what issue they can find to work on together with some of the people there. I don’t see how it would be a good setting for a national political party’s business convention, although I don’t see any possibility of it having been a serious suggestion. It appears to be sarcasm, but I don’t see why it proves or disproves anything. Different settings are appropriate for different sorts of activities. It’s silly to think or expect that any setting would work for any activity.
Even if we were to assume that CHAZ is a great example of libertarian anarchism in action, no one (at least no one here and no one I ever recall meeting or talking to) has suggested that the LP should be an anarchists-only party. If we granted the assertion that it is in fact a stable, autonomous anarchist non-state, it’s precisely where a political party of a different entity would not meet. Of course the suggestion was facetious, but seems to be misplaced. CHAZ does not prove or disprove anything about the long term prospects of libertarian anarchism. If we did have large scale libertarian anarchism we wouldn’t really need an LP; but not being the best place for a professional football game doesn’t mean that professional football shouldn’t be played somewhere else.
You can with the same level of validity suggest that if the US Capitol isn’t an appropriate to try to hold the LP convention (and of course it isn’t) that people who think that the US Capitol or something should perpetually continue to exist can’t or shouldn’t effectively participate in the LP.
I don’t know what what news reports you are reading, but the claim that Chaz is checking IDs originates from the Seattle PD. The primary corroboration for the police account appears to be the Tucker Carlson show. Using my 1337 google skillz, I was able to aggregate news sources from the local area. According to eyewitness accounts from local journalists with boots on the ground, the Checking IDs and tax extortion claims are fabrications.
My understanding is that the Seattle Mayor is leaning towards or favors letting Chaz have its summer of love. There isn’t much the local government can do about it at the moment that wouldn’t create a backlash reaction that would effectively shut down the entire city.
See above; I accounted for the possibility the news reports are false. And CHAZ is not some single hive mind entity. It’s a whole lot of different people. I would not necessarily discount the possibility that some of them may be trying that sort of crap. Could also be undercover cops, scammers or other troublemakers posing as some kind of leadership or agents thereof. Or could be bullshit, but I addressed that possibility.
Well no one can be everywhere at once, so I don’t know. It may have happened and they didn’t see it. Or, again, not. It was not central to my point.
There are different levels of government – city, county, state, local, etc. And different branches. And politicians can, shockingly, be duplicitous and change their minds. Or they may intend to now, but change their minds when some incidents happen or whatever else. Maybe they will last the summer, but probably not. If they do, I expect they won’t make it too long into the fall.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m glad they are doing their thing. So far it seems to be by and large peaceful. What it’s not is a truly autonomous zone or “nonarchy pod” as in territory consciously abandoned by all regimes that laid claim to it where people can live without a coercive monopoly government long term.
Chaz effectively is a sit-in occupation predicated on a 30 point list of demands,
https://medium.com/@seattleblmanon3/the-demands-of-the-collective-black-voices-at-free-capitol-hill-to-the-government-of-seattle-ddaee51d3e47
I imagine libertarians would be sympathetic to ~ 75% of the demands. It also should be pointed out the sit-in is not a shut down. According to one spokesperson, the objective is for patronage of local businesses to operate exactly as it did before, with the only difference being no police. So, that would not exactly qualify as a commie proletariat take over.
Sure. I did not say it was a commie takeover or that we don’t have a lot in common. I’ve always found plenty in common with the more anti-authoritarian parts of the left.
pf: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone would probably be a good place for libertarians to go to see what issue they can find to work on together with some of the people there.
Me: Great idea! I suggest Commey, the LP’s NYC mayoral candidate, the one who tried to hijack an airline and spent years in an insane asylum.
Yeah, not so much.
The time I’ve been on this board, i can’t remember one time Bob Capozzi has advocated for a reduction in state power. The “lessarchy” scam has always been used as a (comical) troll weapon against anyone who does advocate for state power reduction on the basis that said reduction is outside the overton window. The easy rebuttal to that nonsense has always been the objective of a 3rd party politics w/ no money is not to be in the overton window today, but to hold positions today that will be in the so-called overton window tomorrow. 2 weeks ago Bob and his compatriot, noted political scientist and campaign veteran strategist, Dlugos, would have scoffed at #abolishThePolcie, #defundThePolice as “NAP fundamentalism” run amok.
#BLMNapist
nah, the LP should send Bob down there as an emissary to lecture the protestors on the dangers of twenty somethings launching deep sea 80-20 depth charges, or better yet, authorize Dlugos to negotiate a guaranteed electoral viability strategy armed with his federal charter school subsidies & social security means testing proposals. It would be pretty cheap, too. You would only have to fork over enough for a 1-way plane ticket.
pf,
Why so? Commey seems extremely well-positioned and credentialed to serve as ambassador to CHAZ, as well as Mayor of NYC. Perhaps his ambassadorial colleagues could be John McAfee, Vermin Supreme, and Spike Cohen.
Rc vermin and spike would actually be good. The others not so much.
Anyone noticing that cases are setting records daily?
At least in Florida… And Arizona, And NC, And….
Just a Thought.
Never gets warn in AZ or FL though, so there’s that.
(Snark if needed)
pf,
How would you characterize your feeling about the likes of Commey and McAfee being prominent Ls? Embarrassment?
I don’t really think they are. Honestly I wouldn’t give it much thought if you didn’t bring it up. Certainly not Commey, as you are I think the only person I have heard bring him up, at least this year, if ever. McAfee is far as I know is a fugitive from the US and not particularly interested in being an LP ambassador. Why do you keep bringing them up? It seems stupid and pointless. There is no shortage of embarrassing candidates in any party, as far as I know.
pf,
Commey and McAfee are particularly embarrassing. I suspect that would be a near-unanimous view in the broader public. Those who overlook these sorts of embarrassments would need to drink gallons of NAP “purism” Kool Aid.
I’m still not sure why you thought having embarrassing candidates was relevant, when all parties have them.
PF,
The magnitude of embarrassment is the point. Hijackers, mental patients, boot hat wearing, etc. establishes a much more pronounced embarrassment factor.
You REALLY don’t see that?
I disagree about the satirical boot hat wearing . And I’ve seen worse from other parties. I don’t feel like an in depth case comparison. Other more I.interesting topics and many other things to do for me. Embarrassing candidates appears to be a universal phenomenon afflicting all parties of any size or ideology.
paulie: “Embarrassing candidates appears to be a universal phenomenon afflicting all parties of any size or ideology.”
True, but other parties aren’t struggling (as much) to be taken seriously. If Libertarians were branded as a humorless party of stuffed shirts, then they could afford to lighten up. But if anecdotal evidence is any indication, then a lot more people, potentially reachable people, dismiss the LP as a party of self-indulgent clowns and naive college kids, so cultivating a more professional public image should be a priority.
I think there are a lot more reachable voters who dismiss the LP either as rightwing fringe or as the same kind of dishonest politicians as Democrats and Republicans. There are a lot of Republicans who make grumbling noises about considering the LP, but they shouldn’t be confused for actually being the largest group of reachable voters. They are actually less likely to switch anything, including their party, and when they do it is often not for long. Constantly appealing trying to appeal to them makes the party less welcoming to the actually more available groups of voters.
pf,
More appealing to hijackers? Mental patients? Fugitives?
Is it possible that L switchers leave when they see themselves surrounded by wackos who are held in high regard in the LP?
Nah, you know my theory on who our natural target audiences are. Not hijackers, LOL. Mostly young or otherwise alienated people – immigrants, minority and niche groups of every kind, people who are discriminated against for one reason or another – who are strongly libertarian on peace and social/civil liberties issues and at least open to considering libertarian economic ideas if they are presented as compassionate and not something that sounds like it’s only or mainly for selfish well off people. Frequently non-voting but eligible or soon will be, or also often reluctantly voting for Democrats to keep the Republicans out without a lot of enthusiasm for the Democrats per se. Often prone to recruitment by the far left, but in most cases not fully on board with that – at least yet.
As it so happens, Vermin and Spike are good with these kinds of audiences. They would probably be excellent representatives of the LP in the Autonomous Zone, which is how we got on thus boring time sink of a tangent. McAfee, as it happens, isn’t eligible, and is too erratic to be a good ambassador of anything if he were. The other guy you mentioned – I don’t know much about, other than he had had mental breaks in the past. He may be good now. Or not. He’s pretty obscure, so I think you are mainly only harping on him to try to make a point which he doesn’t actually illustrate.
pf,
The LP seems to believe that Commey is a good candidate to be Mayor of the largest city in the US. Thankfully, since the LP nominated a nobody, Commey will (hopefully) remain obscure and under the radar, except perhaps in the media capital of the US itself.
The Founders spent their 20-something brain power in installing NAP “purist” depth charges, but not to filter out such awful (on its face) candidates. Why the current leadership has not disowned the hijacking mental patient suggests a serious lack of judgment. Your target of alienated youth (which was once the Evers view) is probably not attracted to the party of hijacking mental patients, because virtually no one is.