Paul Stanton makes motion to remove Ryan Ramsey from Florida LP exec comm, then resigns himself

Paul Stanton to LP Florida Exec Comm, sent October 22, 2017 (see link for additional embedded links):

Greetings,

Tonight’s motion 520 is mainly regarding threats and advocacy of violence against me and others, including a current US Senate candidate and former rules chair of the Libertarian Party of Miami-Dade. Additionally, he is a leader in a white supremacist group, the American Guard, a spin-off group of the violent anti-immigrant Sons of Odin – founded by Brien James (who also founded the Vinlanders – a Neo-Nazi group responsible for dozens of murders). The crossed cleavers in their shield is a reference to 19th century anti-immigrant gang leader, Bill the Butcher – an advocacy of violence against immigrants.

Ryan Ramsey himself covers white nationalist “Rock Against Communism” bands like Screwdriver (sic), and advocates for Operation Werewolf. He has called the LNC Chair Nick Sarwark “Nazi Nick,” citing Nick’s Jewish religion, then blaming people “disingenuous political leaders like Nick Sarwark” for the rise of the Nazi Party and ultimately the Holocaust.

Here are some links which I will be referencing tonight at the meeting:

https://www.facebook.com/libertarianheathen/photos/a.1959795147587414.1073741828.1954915414742054/2002228056677456/

https://www.adl.org/blog/behind-the-american-guard-hardcore-white-supremacists

http://libertarianheathen.com

http://archive.is/t5jC7

Bottom line, I am sick of seeing threats of violence against good Libertarians, and others disassociating in disgust over the intimidation tactics, dehumanization, and white supremacist rhetoric being employed by leaders within our party. If we allow one of our leaders to threaten our membership while having the ability to stop it, voters and donors have no reason to take our party seriously, as we clearly do not.

The delegates very clearly gave us the ability to remove people from the EC for violation of the non-aggression pledge. Tonight we must decide if we will take that task seriously or not.

In liberty,
Paul Stanton

Folowup message:

Info about the 1930s German Nazi history book that Ryan Ramsey took his meme from:
http://spartacus-educational.com/Jewish_Children.htm

I’ve not seen whether the motion was seconded for a vote or what the vote was, but it appears that Ramsey was not removed, and Stanton followed up by resigning himself:

Subject: Resignation From LPF
From: “Paul Stanton”
Date: Sun, October 22, 2017 6:54 pm
To: ec@lpf.org
Cc: chair@lp.org, vicechar@lp.org, secretary@lp.org, treasurer@lp.org,
william.redpath@lp.org, daniel.hayes@lp.org, starchild@lp.org,
sam.goldstein@lp.org, joshua.katz@lp.org, caryn.ann.harlos@lp.org,
steven.nielson@lp.org, ed.marsh@lp.org, steven.nekhaila@lp.org,
brett.bittner@lp.org, ken.moellman@lp.org, jeffrey.hewitt@lp.org,
aaron.starr@lp.org, james.lark@lp.org, trent.some@lp.org,
david.demarest@lp.org, sean.otoole@lp.org, whitney.bilyeu@lp.org,
erin.adams@lp.org, patrick.mcknight@lp.org, larry.sharpe@lp.org,
wes.benedict@lp.org

Marcos,

Due to the LPF Executive Committee’s recent refusal to respond to threats targeting myself and others from Ryan Ramsey, a white supremacist leader, LPF county chair, LPF EC member, and candidate for Florida House, I hereby resign from all positions and membership within the Libertarian Party of Florida, as I can no longer in good faith continue to ask other Libertarians to support a party which allows its leaders to threaten and intimidate members while repeating violent white supremacist and anti-semitic rhetoric.

Libertarians deserve better than the Libertarian Party of Florida.

Please remove me from any mailing or membership lists and add me to the LPF’s do not call list. I will not be responding to any email sent to this address.

In liberty,
Paul Stanton

That message made its way to the LNC list and received discussion (look for the thread titled Resignation from LPF).

Stanton’s final reply was:

Paul Stanton
4:23 PM (18 hours ago)

to Thomas, iprtwo, caryn.ann.harl., Independent, erin.adams, Whitney, Joshua, David, Daniel, Ed, Steven, Starchild

Much like our last state-wide candidate in Florida, and the one before him, and the one before him, I have resigned from the Libertarian Party Florida. Though I have now resigned, I am certain that as a member of the LPF EC, I did inform the LNC, twice, of a problem. Feel free to ask the current LPF Vice Chair Omar Recuero, the most recent former LPF Chair (and current LPF EC member) Char-lez Braden, the LPF Chair before him (and former gubernatorial candidate – receiving the most votes in LPF history) Adrian Wyllie, or current LPF US Senate candidate Joseph Wendt whether or not the LPF has a problem, and they will each tell you that we have a very serious problem – not to mention all the others who have disassociated over this ongoing issue.

It’s easy to tell others to ignore threats and intimidation tactics when you, your family, your friends, your campaign volunteers, your fellow activists, aren’t the targets. People have simply lost their minds. I resigned. The fight against ethnonationalism has never been my issue. I simply became a victim of it. This is no longer my responsibility to fix.

Paulie, thank you for including me and for all you do, but I don’t expect I will be responding any further. Please do not include me in future correspondence. Thank you to everyone who has sent me messages of support. Good luck folks.

Paul Stanton

For additional background:
Paul Frankel: Why Libertarians need to denounce the Alt Right and white nationalists and don’t need to worry about libertarian socialists and antifa

Paul Stanton: LP Florida Chair Marcos Miralles Must Resign

Paul Stanton: Perhaps “Working with White Nationalists” Is Not the Best Approach?

Paul Stanton: Endorsements for the LPF Convention

74% to 26%: Florida Libertarians reject Invictus, nominate Stanton for Senate in Aug. 30 primary

Paul Stanton Announces Campaign for Florida U.S. Senate Seat

Orlando Sentinel: ‘Goat-blood drinking Orlando man had key billing for Charlottesville rally’

Liberty Against Fascism: ‘Restating the Obvious: An Open Letter from the Libertarian Movement’

Joe Wendt for US Senate: “New LP of Florida Chair undermines Libertarian principles in favor of white nationalists”

Knapp, Dickey cover 2017 Libertarian Party of Florida convention

Libertarians United Against Fascism write open letter to LNC; Starchild responds

Alexandria Brown: Response to Ryan Ramsey and Timeline of Events

Libertarians United Against Fascism: ‘To the Cowardly Collaborators of the Libertarian Party of Florida, and a Call to Action Against Them’

David Colborne: Augustus Sol Invictus Is Not Welcome In My State

Update on Augustus Invictus criminal allegations and retraction of censure from Florida LP; possible disaffiliation by LNC floated

Knapp: Replace LP of Florida Exec Comm and Bylaws

Police Report: Augustus Invictus accused of domestic violence, sexual assault, kidnapping, terroristic threats

Augustus Invictus Announces Republican 2018 Senate Run

Augustus Sol Invictus: Statement Concerning My Registration with the Republican Party

Update on rape, assault, kidnapping and witness tampering allegations against Augustus Invictus

Augustus Invictus: Statement Regarding the Antifa Boycott of the Mid-Atlantic Liberty Festival

Augustus Invictus Discusses the Libertarian Party

“Death to Hillary Clinton, death to George Soros” says Augustus Invictus at Liberty Fest NYC; releases new book

In interview, Augustus Invictus says he supports eco-terrorism and calls John McAfee a “total degenerate”

Augustus Invictus: Letter to the People of Europe

Rose City Antifa report on Augustus Invictus visit to Portland, OR

FL: Augustus Invictus campaigns in front of white nationalist skinhead music banner (Note: Ramsey often displays the same banner)

Northwest Florida Libertarian Party Disavows Augustus Sol Invictus as Libertarian Candidate for U.S. Senate

Cara Schulz: Augustus Sol Invictus and the Libertarian Party of Florida

Libertarian Party of Florida condemns Augustus Invictus, calls his advocacy of war and eugenics “abhorrent”

Thread for Questions to Augustus Invictus, Senatorial Candidate Hopeful for the Libertarian Party of Florida

Augustus Invictus: Official Response to the Criticisms of Chairman Wyllie

Augustus Invictus Calls for “Total Insurrection”

Augustus Invictus: A Declaration of the Failings of the Federal Government

Augustus Invictus announces Libertarian candidacy for Florida U.S. Senate seat being vacated by Marco Rubio

Daily Beast: ‘The Insidious Libertarian-to-Alt-Right Pipeline’

Former Libertarian, now fascist, Christopher Cantwell gathers national attention

Chuck Moulton: ‘LP conventions, avoid alt-right / white supremacist event speakers’

Free Speech and No Platform: A Brief Libertarian Case for Silencing Fascists

Libertarian Party of Pinellas County Calls for the Libertarian Candidate for US Senate to Disassociate from the LPF

Thomas L. Knapp: Slow News Days and Third Party Politics: Attack of the Goat-Sacrificing Roman Sun God!

Chair and Vice-Chair of the Libertarian Party of Florida Resign Effective Immediately

Matt Wright: Why I Won’t Vote for Just Any Libertarian

LP Release: “Libertarians condemn bigotry as irrational and repugnant”

Nicholas Sarwark, Arvin Vohra call out Jeff Deist and the Mises Institute’s “blood and soil” politics

Nicholas Sarwark: ‘Nationalism and racism is a sickness that flows from weakness and lack of anything other than the privilege of birth to be proud of’

LSLA 2017: ‘Physically Removed, So to Speak: Making the LP Inhospitable to the Alt-Right and Other Nazis’

Gary Johnson condemns racist violence in Charlottesville

216 thoughts on “Paul Stanton makes motion to remove Ryan Ramsey from Florida LP exec comm, then resigns himself

  1. paulie Post author

    Sorry for the TL; DR but it hasn’t made its way to LNC list.

    Sorry, some of the highlighting and blockquotes etc got taken out so you can either figure out from context when I am writing and when I am quoting, or if you care, ask and I will forward you the email.

    The matter is also being discussed on LNC List http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/2017/date.html see the thread “Resignation from LPF”

    Also, apparently we have a comment limit size, which I did not know. So it will be in 3 parts starting with my next comment.

  2. paulie Post author

    travellingcircus@gmail.com
    1:21 PM (18 hours ago)

    to caryn.ann.harl., Independent, iprtwo, erin.adams, Whitney, Joshua, David, Daniel, Steven, Starchild, Paul, Ed
    I’m writing to LNC members who commented in this thread plus Whitney as my rep, IPR teamCCed for background, and Paul Stanton CCed. If any of the LNC members copied feel it’s worth sharing with the rest of LNC please do so. If not, my feelings won’t be hurt either.

    I’m not going to comment on what if anything LNC should do, just lay out the facts as I know them,

    Just before Paul Stanton resigned from LPF exec comm he submitted the following to that body (see links embedded in original):

    https://groups.google.com/forum/embed/#!topic/lpfec/7Ii6WazfTGo

    ——————————————————————————————————————-
    Greetings,

    Tonight’s motion 520 is mainly regarding threats and advocacy of violence against me and others, including a current US Senate candidate and former rules chair of the Libertarian Party of Miami-Dade. Additionally, he is a leader in a white supremacist group, the American Guard, a spin-off group of the violent anti-immigrant Sons of Odin – founded by Brien James (who also founded the Vinlanders – a Neo-Nazi group responsible for dozens of murders). The crossed cleavers in their shield is a reference to 19th century anti-immigrant gang leader, Bill the Butcher – an advocacy of violence against immigrants.

    Ryan Ramsey himself covers white nationalist “Rock Against Communism” bands like Screwdriver, and advocates for Operation Werewolf. He has called the LNC Chair Nick Sarwark “Nazi Nick,” citing Nick’s Jewish religion, then blaming people “disingenuous political leaders like Nick Sarwark” for the rise of the Nazi Party and ultimately the Holocaust.

    Here are some links which I will be referencing tonight at the meeting:

    https://www.facebook.com/libertarianheathen/photos/a.1959795147587414.1073741828.1954915414742054/2002228056677456/
    https://www.adl.org/blog/behind-the-american-guard-hardcore-white-supremacists
    http://libertarianheathen.com
    http://archive.is/t5jC7

    Bottom line, I am sick of seeing threats of violence against good Libertarians, and others disassociating in disgust over the intimidation tactics, dehumanization, and white supremacist rhetoric being employed by leaders within our party. If we allow one of our leaders to threaten our membership while having the ability to stop it, voters and donors have no reason to take our party seriously, as we clearly do not.

    The delegates very clearly gave us the ability to remove people from the EC for violation of the non-aggression pledge. Tonight we must decide if we will take that task seriously or not.

    In liberty,
    Paul Stanton

    Folowup message:

    Info about the 1930s German Nazi history book that Ryan Ramsey took his meme from:
    http://spartacus-educational.com/Jewish_Children.htm

    ———————————————————————————————

    Frankel: I can also attest to the threats coming from Ramsey, his former close associate Augustus Invictus and others in their circle.

    Back in April of this year, on a tip from IPR site owner Warren Redlich, I published http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/police-report-augustus-invictus-accused-of-domestic-violence-sexual-assault-kidnapping/ detailing that Mr. Invictus’ ex-fiancee made these very serious allegations against him. I confirmed with the police department in question that the referenced report had in fact been filed. I made no comment in the article about the truth or falsehood of the allegations. Any comments of opinions I made in the comment section on the same basis as any of our other readers and clearly marked as opinion. Notably, the complaintant and associate of hers also reported death threats at the time from Invictus and Ramsey, who have since then (very recently) had a falling out. Witness tampering was also one of the allegations.

    I also republished http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/libertarians-united-against-fascism-to-the-cowardly-collaborators-of-the-libertarian-party-of-florida-and-a-call-to-action-against-them/ (note that the original and its website were taken down so the images no longer appear; scroll down to see the section about Ryan Ramsey as the last part of the article).

    As a response, 1) Augustus Invictus wrote me and Warren Redlich, insinuating possible legal action and hinting at other forms of retaliation; he later wrote another former associate of his, Raquel Okyay, which was later forwarded to me, naming me as one of the people he plans to take some form of unspecified revenge on. 2) Ryan Ramsey published two articles filled with outright lies and slanderous fictions about me, Redlich, and others alleging some grand conspiracy . You can find them at libertarianheathen.com with a search for Frankel. Ramsey and his associates continually spread this crap on FB and probably elsewhere.

    https://libertarianheathen.com/?s=frankel

    The slanderous lies from Ramsey were tit for tat retaliation – he said so himself, and offered a reciprocal unpublishing – because I reported the news that his then buddy Augustus Invictus, one of the Charlottesville organizers, had been accused of a pattern of domestic violence, kidnapping and rape by his ex-fiancee. I was simply reporting the news, not taking a stance, except in the comments; and even there I was careful to separate what I knew to be fact from my opinion and what others alleged. Furthermore, I reposted accurate reporting about Ryan Ramsey and his associates previously published elsewhere. His response was to

    1) Publish lies about me, Warren Redlich and IPR, linked above

    2) Offer to take them down if we took down our own reporting

    3) Threaten to sic law enforcement on me for supposedly being a terrorist and threatening his wife, none of which is even remotely true. Specifically, he said he had contacted the Florida Department of Law Enforcement electronic crimes division and was planning to meet with the FBI and tell them that I am a terrorist (a preposterous lie) and that I threatened his then pregnant wife (another absurd fiction).

    4) His pal Invictus broached the possibility of suing us (but said he wasn’t doing that, at least at that time)

    5) Invictus later issued a non-specific threat against me and a few other people saying we will “get what is coming to us.” Among many other people he and his associates have threatened.

    Ryan Ramsey’s article is in fact full of attacks, slander and lies. Looking at just the headline alone: I am not editor in chief at IPR and in fact there is no such position. I am not a terrorist, and that is a slanderous claim. Moving beyond the headline I address numerous inaccurate statements, slanders, libel and downright lies in Ramsey’s article in a series of comments starting at http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/libertarians-united-against-fascism-write-open-letter-to-lnc-starchild-responds/#comment-1581189 and continuing over a couple of dozen comments.

    To take one egregious example, Ramsey continually asserts that I had something to do with killing a dog. I did not, and while he is not the first person to spread this lie it is nevertheless a lie and he is not repeating it as a statement by someone else but rather as something he knows to be true, unlike the statements about him by others that I have published. There are many similar falsehoods throughout the article which I addressed in IPR comments.

    Others who have been threatened by Invictus, Ramsey and friends include Tom Knapp

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/07/paul-stanton-perhaps-working-with-white-nationalists-is-not-the-best-approach/#comment-1636145

    “To date, twice when the AI combination pity party / threat machine got cranked up and I was involved in direct back and forth, I escalated from Condition Yellow to Condition Orange. This involves, among other things, making my family aware of a possible threat, ensuring that at least one person in the household in addition to myself has a loaded firearm near to hand at all times, and paying special attention to street traffic in my neighborhood (which is very low traffic so anything unusual stands out, and I have a nearby neighbor who knows to call if anything looks suspicious as well). ”

    Frankel again) The email I was forwarded from Invictus says in part “Stanton, Tesky, Wyllie, Marchetti, and Frankel are all directly responsible for that, because the babysitter called the police based off the bullshit criminal allegations being pushed by those five. It was the ‘news’ story that caused the babysitter to call the police. Fourth and final: It never crossed my mind that Joe (Wendt) had anything to do with that, but if I find out that he was involved with Stanton or Tesky or Marchetti in pushing those criminal allegations, I will hang him with my own fucking hands. That entire situation is something so outrageous that I am not even discussing it. Each and every person who was involved or had knowledge of it will get what is coming to them.”

    And in fact, all of the people named, myself included, are among many others who have reported being threatened by Invictus, Ramsey and their circle of associates. Ramsey is still neck deep in it even now that Invictus has become a Republican.

    Ramsey is allegedly gloating about Stanton’s resignation in these facebook groups, among others:

    Kekistan
    The Right Way: No Cucks, Only Kek
    Republic of Kekistan
    @The Deplorables and Basement Dwellers for Trump
    Anti-SJW
    Anti-SJW Pinochet’s Beach Party

    The ex-fiancee of Invictus, Ms. Rice, and her friend Ms. Brown along with others they knew also reported being threatened and intimidated by Invictus, Ramsey et al.

  3. paulie Post author

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/08/joe-wendt-for-us-senate-new-lp-of-florida-chair-undermines-libertarian-principles-in-favor-of-white-nationalists/

    ….
    Libertarian Party Candidate for U.S. Senate, Joe Wendt, condemns LPF Chair, Marcos Miralles, for pursuing a policy that promotes white nationalists within the Libertarian Party of Florida. “Mr. Miralles has appointed known white nationalists to leadership positions.”

    “I have been threatened with physical violence by white nationalist supporters of Miralles,” said Wendt. “

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/07/paul-stanton-perhaps-working-with-white-nationalists-is-not-the-best-approach/ see embedded links in original”

    We are losing good members, and the trust of the public, due to the elevation of leaders in extremist hate groups to our party leadership. We need a new approach. Local libertarian-leaning politicians and voters associate us with far-right extremists. As of yesterday, my county no longer has a full slate of candidates for the Florida House. One of the Libertarian candidates I drafted will now unfortunately be running NPA. Yesterday, we also lost our incoming Rules Committee chair. Previously, both our former gubernatorial nominee and our senatorial nominee (prior to me) have resigned their LPF memberships, among countless other Libertarian activists and volunteers. A member of my 2016 Senate campaign ended her participation with the party, because her employer forbids associations with members of extremist hate groups advocating for violence. A single friend (who ceased her participation after receiving death threats) has reported that no fewer than 30 of her acquaintances have withdrawn from Libertarian Party activism due to risks to themselves and their reputations.

    During my US Senate campaign, I never expected the situation that unfolded. I expected the personal attacks, but I never expected racist fantasies about my mother, posting of personal information about members of my family, or the violent threats and sexual harassment targeting my supporters and members of my campaign. Last month, after I introduced a motion (which was killed) to remove Florida’s member of the Libertarian Party Platform Committee for his racist statements, I was accused of wanting to kill all white people, in a “white genocide” conspiracy theory. And now today, there have been threats that the militant hate group the American Guardmay be waiting for me in the parking lot, or harassing county party meetings. We must have higher standards for our party leadership!
    Sadly, these are common intimidation tactics among white nationalists, and there are several other victims throughout Florida. This behavior cannot be accepted. We cannot continue to elevate these people. Libertarianism stands for maximum freedom for everyone, universally. We dishonor ourselves and our party by enabling liars with wildly divergent philosophies, who stand immediately adjacent to neo-Nazis, white nationalists, fascists,organized criminal syndicates, and domestic terrorists.

    From the comments:

    Starchild
    July 22, 2017 at 09:26
    Joe, do you know which individuals were shouting “white power” at the state convention? Is there video evidence of this? I would hope those individuals are identified and ostracized, and that other Libertarians will make clear to them that there is no room for such racism in the LP. That is not what we are about. If individuals who seek to act in such a manner leave the party, that is not a loss for us but a gain.

    Joe Wendt
    July 22, 2017 at 12:10
    Starchild,

    The individuals in question are supports of the current LPF Chair. Although Augustus Invictus, the most prominent of the White Nationalists, has left the party, unfortunately other less prominent White Nationalists are not [only -p] remaining active in the LPF, the Chair is actually giving them positions of authority.

    Screenshot of Ramsey threatening to knock Wendt’s teeth out and saying he may have an “accident”

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/received_10159060778305274.png

    paulie
    July 23, 2017 at 12:04
    Again, it’s not about Joe. Yes Ramsey threatened Joe, but he also threatened many other people, as has Invictus and their other buddies. There are numerous sources for that, including me. Yes, Ramsey has spread bullshit about me. I think he is still doing it although I haven’t checked lately. Did he know it to be false or did he just repeat what other people said? Well, he couldn’t have known it to be true since it was not true and he did not say “so and so says” he just repeated things as if they were facts and added new ones such as the bullshit about me being a terrorist and member of a terrorist groups and the bullshit about me making threats against his wife. And again, these are just examples just as the other examples in Stanton’s article are only examples.

    The real issue is that there is an ongoing pattern as reported by many different people of Invictus, Ramsey and their circle of friends issuing threats, spreading lies .. to and about many different people .. and maintaining ongoing close associations with multiple white supremacist groups and violent groups and individuals.

    ….

    Ramsey says “You were awful meek last night punk. Ill see you soon though and well see how mouthy you are” which is clearly physical intimidation. Joe is talking shit on the internet but Ramsey says he will not do it in person. Why not? Clearly due to threat of physical violence. Ramsey follows this up with “Id be more concerned with the teeth in your mouth at this point joe. Your dental plan good?” which in the context of his earlier statement is not exactly a very veiled threat. If he was genuinely concerned about Joe slipping and falling due to being drunk, which is laughable in the context of the conversation, he would not have made the threat so specific.

    And the larger context of course is that there have been many other threats, to many other people, myself as well as this publication (IPR) included.

    Joe Wendt
    July 23, 2017 at 13:55
    To Andy,

    I have contacted the police. Since it has not progressed beyond Facebook, they told me to block him and contact them again if he continues the harassing and threatening behavior. They will be called if he threatens me again.

    paulie
    July 23, 2017 at 14:19
    Also, if all of these if all of these violent threats have been made, why hasn’t anyone gone to jail? Has anyone even gotten a restraining order?
    Don’t be naive. Threats are not always made in a verifiable, provable form. I’ve received plenty of threats over the years, including death threats, and I have never felt the urge to go to the cops about it. What the fuck are they going to do? While they conduct their half assed investigation I may get killed or injured or whatever else. Or someone else around me.

    And one of the people that has been threatened by Invictus, Ramsey and friends made a good point. This person said that Ramsey has known contacts in law enforcement and that there are known ties between many members of law enforcement and white supremacist groups such as the ones Ramsey and Invictus have a lot of ties to. So reporting anything to law enforcement may actually be cutting your own throat if you get threatened by these assholes.

    FL: Augustus Invictus campaigns in front of white nationalist skinhead music banner http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2015/12/fl-augustus-invictus-campaigns-in-front-of-white-nationalist-skinhead-music-banner/ Note: Ramsey also frequently associates with that same banner to this day. “Rock Against Communism” may sound like something that libertarians would agree with, but in reality it’s a well-known neo-nazi front organization that no “former” white supremacist (as Ramsey claims to be) would have any association with.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Against_Communism

    The Rock Against Communism movement originated in the United Kingdom in late 1978 with far right activists associated with the National Front (NF).[4] It was intended to counter the Rock Against Racism organisation.[4] The first RAC concert was in Leeds, England in 1978, featuring the Nazi punk bands The Dentists and The Ventz.[5] RAC held one concert in 1979 and another in spring 1983, which was headlined by Skrewdriver, a white power rock band led by Ian Stuart Donaldson. After that, RAC concerts were held more often. They were often headlined by Skrewdriver and featured other white power bands, such as Skullhead and No Remorse. In the mid-1980s, summer concerts were often held at the Suffolk home of Edgar Griffin, a Conservative Party activist[6] and father of Nick Griffin, an NF organiser who later became the national chair of the British National Party. By the late 1980s, the RAC name had given way to the White Noise Club (another NF-based group), and later Blood and Honour, which was set up by Donaldson when they fell out with the NF leadership.[4] As hardcore punk music became more popular in the 1990s and 2000s, many white power bands took on a more hardcore-influenced sound.

    Note that Ryan Ramsey continues to proudly wave the “Rock against communism” banner.

    Chuck Moulton: ‘LP conventions, avoid alt-right / white supremacist event speakers’ http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/05/chuck-moulton-lp-conventions-avoid-alt-right-white-supremacist-event-speakers/

  4. paulie Post author

    More background:

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/alexandria-brown-response-to-ryan-ramsey-and-timeline-of-events/

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/update-on-rape-assault-kidnapping-and-witness-tampering-allegations-against-augustus-invictus/

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/update-on-augustus-invictus-criminal-allegations-and-retraction-of-censure-from-florida-lp-possible-disaffiliation-by-lnc-floated/

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/david-colborne-augustus-sol-invictus-is-not-welcome-in-my-state/

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/knppster-were-going-to-shut-it-down/

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/knapp-replace-lp-of-florida-exec-comm-and-bylaws/

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/08/paul-stanton-lp-florida-chair-marcos-miralles-must-resign/ :

    Marcos Miralles began his race for Chair of the LPF with the support of Augustus Sol Invictusand Ryan Ramsey, both leaders in white supremacist groups, including the American Guard. (The American Guard was one of the groups present in Charlottesville last weekend.) Invictus was also a featured speaker at the Charlottesville white supremacist rally. The support has not been one-sided. Last year, Marcos Miralles provided a town hall for Invictus (as part of a campaign to stir up drama during the primary), the pictures from which are still used by the Miami Herald to associate our party with Invictus. Additionally, he proudly displayed Ryan Ramsey’s endorsement on his website and appointed Ryan Ramsey to our Legislative Review Committee. There is no place for white supremacy in the Libertarian Party of Florida.

    Thankfully, there was a recent press release condemning the events in Charlottesville. Unfortunately, Marcos Miralles has refused to condemn the white supremacists within our party, or recant his previous support. Instead, he insists that he will “work with everybody” and has dismissed worries about white supremacists using our party to support their platform as “non sense,” despite the support of the previously-mentioned Libertarians, and despite the Libertarian Party of Florida’s representative to the Libertarian Party platform committee, Frank Caprio. Caprio regularly makes very racist comments, including quotes white supremacist Bob Whitaker. I physically cringed when I read Marcos write: “The Libertarian Party of Florida will forever remain the safest home for all of those that fight for civil rights.” As one of the Libertarian victims of violent threats and harassment (a Muslim mother of biracial children) stated, “The Libertarian Party was not a safe haven for me and many others like me. It should be, by principle. […] But that’s not the present day reality.” Sadly, she ended her participation with the party after concerns with the safety of her family. When she reached out to Miralles, she was ignored and blocked on social media.

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/05/knapp-dickey-cover-2017-libertarian-party-of-florida-convention/ http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/05/knapp-dickey-cover-2017-libertarian-party-of-florida-convention/

    There were people yelling white power. Larry Sharpe went on an alt-right vlog by Ryan Ramsey called the Mad American Network. That group was with Invictus in Harrisburg, PA and at least one member, Dave Martel, was seen sieg heiling there. Invictus chased someone out of a courtesy suite with threats of violence. Invictus was then pushing Paul Stanton trying to pick a fight. There was loud applause of his speech where he hijacked our convention for five minutes, then just bragged about it…

    …our gubernatorial candidate denied Stanton a mic for a privileged motion, so that he could procedurally kill a pro-immigration platform plank without letting it be read.

    Thomas Knapp lost an ad hoc election to the LP platform committee to a “constitutional conservative” who once told me, “anti-racist is code for anti-white,” Frank Caprio. He’s from the LP of Orange County (Orlando area, same as Invictus -p).

    Oh, and by the way – no pretend antifa protesters showed up, of course.

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/09/paul-frankel-why-libertarians-need-to-denounce-the-alt-right-and-white-nationalists-and-dont-need-to-worry-about-libertarian-socialists-and-antifa/

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/08/lsla-2017-physically-removed-so-to-speak-making-the-lp-inhospitable-to-the-alt-right-and-other-nazis/

    I’m sure that’s more than enough for now, but there’s plenty more. Feel free to email or call 205-534-1622 to discuss, and forward wherever or whenever you wish.

    Paul Frankel

  5. William O'Nair

    Paul Frankel should follow Paul Stanton’s example and go back to the Socialist Party.

  6. paulie Post author

    Thanks, “Billy,” but I have never been a member of the Socialist Party, although I was a member of the Democratic Party a long time ago – I was 20 when I became a Libertarian in 1992. I score libertarian, easily, on every issue position test I know of.

    I’m not aware of Paul Stanton having been a member of the Socialist Party either, despite frequent but vague claims by Invictus, Ramsey, et al.

  7. Tony From Long Island

    It’s truly sickening that such scum have infiltrated a party I once revered. Makes me glad I left when I did, but sad at the same time.

  8. paulie Post author

    FB comment

    Libertarian Anti-Fascist Committee
    October 21 at 6:20am ·
    White Supremacist Ryan Ramsey (The Libertarian Heathen / Ramsey For Florida House, District 19) is making memes straight from 1930s Nazi schoolbooks. He is on the Libertarian Party of Florida board and is a “Libertarian” candidate for the Florida House of Representatives. Posted by Libertarian Heathen:

    I wonder what these folks think. Feel free to ask them: Libertarian Party of Seminole County, Libertarian Party of Clay County Florida, Libertarian Party of Hillsborough County, FL, ADL – Anti-Defamation League (Florida Region), SPLC Florida, ADL – Anti-Defamation League, Southern Poverty Law Center, Libertarian Party of Pinellas County, Libertarian Party, Tampa Bay RedneckRevolt, Florida Antifa, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus, Florida Chapter, Florida Libertarians Against Nazis, Florida Liberty Caucus, Libertarian Party of Miami-Dade County, Greg Peele, LPF Director At-Large 3, Paul Stanton, Marcos Miralles, LPF Chairman, Adrian Wyllie, Alexander Snitker, Alachua County Libertarians, Dana Moxley Cummings, Libertarian Party of Pinellas County, Northwest Florida Libertarian Party, Libertarian Party of Orange County, Fl., Libertarian Party of Polk County, FL, Libertarian Party of Lake County Florida, Libertarian Party of Brevard County, Libertarian Party of Palm Beach County, Broward Libertarians, Libertarian Party of the Florida Keys, Dankertarians, Libertarian Pragmatist Caucus, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus, Libertarian Party Audacious Caucus, Bradford County Telegraph, Sheriff Gordon Smith – Bradford County Sheriff, CBS4 News – WGFL, Independent Political Report, Nicholas Sarwark, Arvin Vohra, Omar Recuero, LPF Vice Chair, No Nazis at UF

  9. paulie Post author

    FB comments:

    Debbie Sidle
    Brandi (tag)

    Brandi Hicks
    Thanks for tagging me but I am not clicking on this, this website is owned by a miserable man who is responsible for spreading every LPF beef going back years, and hes on his local Republican executive committee, and he also has a personal dislike for us and an echo chamber of people who comment on how much the LPF sucks. No thanks lol

    Independent Political Report
    Warren Redlich, owner of IPR, registered as a Democrat to support Bernie Sanders, the most antiwar candidate left late in the primary season. He has been a Libertarian Party candidate who came closest to making the LP a major party in NY state than any other candidate in LP history.

    Independent Political Report
    It’s true that he has been a GOP candidate and elected official also. He crosses party lines all the time but his views are in the mold of Ron Paul. He is not a fan of Johnson-Weld libertarianism, nor of white nationalists (especially since he happens to be Jewish).

    Independent Political Report
    As for IPR it existed since 2008 with two previous owners before Redlich acquired it in 2012. We report all kinds of news and perspectives about all alt parties of any ideologies and independents – everything from their own press releases to party beefs and squabbles to establishment media coverage. It’s simply not true that we report only the bad news.

  10. William O'Nair

    “Thanks, “Billy,” but I have never been a member of the Socialist Party”

    And yet you have bragged you were the #1 petitioner for the Socialist Party in 2008 and that you did not support the LP candidates that year. Perhaps there is something more to the story that you are not telling us?

    although I was a member of the Democratic Party

    Thanks… that clears it up. Just like the owner of IPR is involved in the Democrat Party now. Two Fabian progressive socialist Democrats, I bet.

    As for Stanton, it is true that Ryan Ramsey and Augustus Invictus are among many who have pointed out that he came from the Socialist Party so it is reasonable to speculate that he returned there and that you should likewise follow suit.

  11. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    If Stanton wants to be effective he has to go to the media. They’ll lap it up. That’s the only thing that will make LNC pay heed.

    Getting over a tooth extraction, taking for ever (don’t get old!) but will check out links at some point soon. The threats are most serious and he should have a good page of screen shots to provide to media. A press conference with supporters would be good too.

    Enough of these slimy ignoramuses.

  12. paulie Post author

    My long comment made it to LNC list. Joshua Katz replied:

    Thank you to both Steven, Paul Frankel, and Tom Knapp for inserting much-needed facts into this discussion. In light of these facts, I think vigilance is called for, but do not think it is appropriate, at this time, to make a relevant motion.

    I will note, without getting into the weeds, that while I won’t quibble with facts alleged about Florida, I would disagree with some of the statements made about certain national groups, or in other ways about the dangerous movement we face. I think they are more dangerous than they’ve been described here, and while in the past I considered them individually dangerous, I now consider them to be an organizational threat – and a threat to the modern world which made freedom possible. (Murray Rothbard pointed out, in 1965, that freedom was made possible by the overthrow of the Ancien Regime, and I think the pre-modern thinking on the right, and the post-modern thinking on the left, are both creating an environment where it can return.) I consider them, at the moment, the most immediate threat to freedom in our culture, since they have organized and gone beyond being individual cranks – they now are making moves on the world of ideas, which controls the rest. And remember that far too many people associate us with them. The Charlottesville morons (if it brings them any comfort, I think I speak on behalf of all Jews when I say that none of us desire to be mouth-breathing bigots carrying tiki torches, so their fears about us replacing them are misplaced) used a banner which was based on the Albany Plan of Union banner – and one of the snake pieces was labeled L.

    In any event, as concerns Florida, I think the analysis is pretty straightforward, although the determinations are not. Is there a problem? I am convinced there is, and I am convinced we should not ignore it and blind ourselves to it. Another party tried that approach, as well as “well, we’ll bring them along for their votes on the things we agree about,” and now is largely unable to get candidates who actually favor its basic ideas through primaries. The next question, the crucial question, is – can the affiliate fix it? (A related, but somewhat different question, is whether it wants to.) I think the answer to that is yes. There is, of course, a tipping point – a point where rather than try to fix the problem, good people simply leave, and the ability to fix the problem goes away. And good people are, it seems clear to me, leaving. I still do not think the tipping point has been reached, though.

  13. paulie Post author

    Caryn Ann Harlos to LNC

    Vigilance is always required. I do find the ethno-nationalist movement very dangerous. But I have the opinion that the far left is equally so (not that I think any of our affiliates are in bed with the far left), and we rightly (notice I said the instinct is correct) get lathered up over one and not the other. I have seen calls for violent resistance to basic property rights from scattered individuals (literally violent assertions), yet never a word, but we can’t talk enough about the violent right. Both are existential threats to our movement. And we have to be vigilant against both. Violence, bigotry, identitarianism of any flavour (that I understand is the new buzzword) has no place here.

    -Caryn Ann

    My reply, again, is http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/09/paul-frankel-why-libertarians-need-to-denounce-the-alt-right-and-white-nationalists-and-dont-need-to-worry-about-libertarian-socialists-and-antifa/

    Capsule version: the violent far left is not nearly as deadly in its violence in the US in recent decades, is not being associated with the LP or the libertarian movement like the violent far right is by the mainstream media or by the fascists themselves. It’s at best a distraction in this particular discussion.

  14. paulie Post author

    Katz to Harlos

    I basically agree.

    The “basically,” by the way, is that I don’t find ‘far’ all that useful, as in far-right or far-left. I don’t think the problem is distance, I think they’re actually distinct. I haven’t worked out a full theory yet, but here’s the one I’m playing with: we can identify three major affiliations (conservative, liberal, libertarian). The versions of all of them we’re used to (i.e. Romney and Macron for right and left, respectively) are products of the modern, post-tribal, civilized world. The first two, though, have “shadow versions” that are not part of the modern world: the pre-modern right, and the post-modern left. These aren’t more extreme than the non-shadow versions, just different – in fact, each form has its extremists and its moderates. Libertarianism, on the other hand, has no shadow version – it simply can’t exist without the basic assumptions of the modern world. We can easily imagine extreme conservatives who are, nonetheless, modern: George W. Bush, perhaps, might be an example. Likewise, we can imagine people who hold the ethnic-nationalist ideas of the “alt-right” in a moderate form.

    I think we’re seeing, left and right, a revolt against modernity, and, as part of that, against freedom, individuality, and the scientific method. I think there still exist modern forms of both, though, and each needs to have its internal fight. All of us will be better off if the modern forms win.

    Trying to view everything as a matter of extremes produces confusing outcomes. It leaves people unable to explain, for instance, why so many “far-right” people hate Christianity, and regard it (or all forms except the orthodox, in many cases) as a Jewish-Arab mongol religion – preferring such religions as Odinism, the “true” white religion. (According to Carroll Quigley, Western civilization grew out of the Caananite and Classical civilizations, while Orthodox civilization grew out of Classical and Minoan civilizations. He wrote that to explain cultural differences during the Cold War, but the ideas haven’t gone away – see the second Charlottesville idiocy, where the chant was “Russia is our friend.”)

    Joshua A. Katz

    There’s a “libertarian” corollary too, the Hoppe/Ramsey types, Deist’s “blood and soil” “libertarians,” Ramsey, “paleolibertarianism,” et al.

  15. paulie Post author

    And yet you have bragged you were the #1 petitioner for the Socialist Party in 2008

    Just like I was the main contractor for the Prohibition Party in 2016. No, I don’t support them either but I do support their right to be on the ballot and I don’t mind getting paid to help put them there. That makes me a capitalist in a non-political sense, but it doesn’t make me a socialist in a political sense.

    and that you did not support the LP candidates that year.

    I supported libertarian candidates for the LP nomination and we failed. I did not support the IMO non-libertarian LP ticket that year. I did support local LP candidates that year like every other year, but due to our egregious ballot access laws my home state of Alabama had none. For that matter, just like in 2004, 2012 and 2016 the LP presidential ticket was on as independents in Alabama so technically we had no LP candidates at all. And, despite my non-support for that ticket, I did agree to be a presidential elector for them when asked, and did help them get on the ballot in AL as well as in MA after they were nominated. I did also help Nader and Baldwin get on the ballot in AL that year, helped the BTP get on in FL and TN, and helped the Socialists get on in LA, TN, and other states via consulting and petitioner referrals. I also helped the LP in other states with ballot access before I knew who the ticket would be.

    Perhaps there is something more to the story that you are not telling us?

    Negative. What you see is what you get.

    Just like the owner of IPR is involved in the Democrat Party now.

    See additional relevant details further above.

    Two Fabian progressive socialist Democrats, I bet.

    No, but we are two Jews (at least by ancestry in my case) and as you would probably say – “with Jews you lose”. So, you lose your bet. Two libertarians who have at various times been involved with other parties. In my case, a long time ago, other than having them as ballot access clients.

    As for Stanton, it is true that Ryan Ramsey and Augustus Invictus are among many who have pointed out that he came from the Socialist Party

    They are notoriously unreliable sources. What evidence is there for this claim?

    so it is reasonable to speculate that he returned there and that you should likewise follow suit.

    Garbage in, garbage out. You start with faulty premises so it’s not surprising you draw faulty inferences from them.

  16. paulie Post author

    lnc list

    I would add that violence, bigotry and identitarianism go hand in hand with
    collectivism, authoritarianism and institutionalism. This brouhaha is
    largely an institutional loyalty battle dominated by destructive
    group-think.

    Perhaps Libertarianism can avoid this institutional quicksand by shifting
    our focus to inspiration and empowerment of the individual.

    Thoughts?

    ~David Pratt Demarest

    My thought is that sounds good but lacks specifics.

  17. paulie Post author

    Ken Moellman to LNC list:

    There is absolutely no room for bigotry of any kind in the libertarian
    movement. It is wholly incompatible with our philosophy.

  18. paulie Post author

    I meant to post this in this thread earlier today but posted it in a different one:

    And from my conversation with Chris Lesiak on the Open Thread this morning:

    it would be a good idea for white nationalists to migrate to the GOP or alternatively the American Freedom Party. The Libertarian Party is not a good place for any white nationalist because white nationalists tend to be focused on group solidarity or what some would call a form of collectivism – advocating for the interests of a very specific group of people, whites – while Libertarians are focused on individualism.

    It’s good to know we can still agree on some things.

  19. Thomas L. Knapp

    Joshua Katz writes above that he believes there is a problem, asks if the affiliate can fix it, and believes the answer is yes.

    I agree on both counts.

    The question is whether or not the people in the affiliate who have the ability to fix it at the moment are interested in doing what they can to fix it in the moment.

    The answer seems to be no.

    The Libertarian Party of Florida’s executive committee has been pretty consistent not only in a majority refusal to act but in a plurality denial that the problem exists. To me the best example was the motion to suspend Augustus Invictus’s membership a few months ago, before he defected to the GOP anyway. I did not support the motion because I don’t believe the committee has the power to suspend memberships. But ON THE EVIDENCE, there was no doubt whatsoever that Augustus had done what he was accused of doing (publicly threatening to murder his political opponents). And yet several members of the EC tried to find ways to deny that he had done exactly what he had done, on video, instead of either voting to suspend him or denying that they had the power to do so. I did not listen in on the Ramsey motion, but my impression is that things took the same course.

    The first step is admitting you have a problem, as the Alcoholics Anonymous folks like to say. The LPF’s executive committee very much wants to avoid admitting it has a problem, so much so that they’ve spent the last year slamming Paul Stanton for continuing to point out that they have a problem.

    Could the membership in convention solve the problem? It could have last year, but clearly the ethno-nationalists were the most organized bloc in the room. It could next year, but I’ve not seen much that would lead me to believe the equation is shifting. The message from the top of the party is that there is no problem, and down at the local level why would people who are busy doing real politics get stirred up if that’s the message they’re getting.

    My expectation is that LPF will send a largely ethno-nationalist delegation to the national convention next year unless something changes. And one of the ethno-nationalists’ clearly and unambiguously stated goals is to change the composition of the LNC at that convention. Not that there’s anything wrong with changing the composition of the LNC, but I’d rather not see the new composition affected in a big way by ethno-nationalist delegates from Florida and elsewhere.

    Let’s be clear: There IS an ongoing attempt by ethno-nationalists to take over and re-purpose the Libertarian Party. Florida is their big success story so far, but that attempt is national in scope.

  20. paulie Post author

    Summary is that LPF leadership wants to sweep the problem under the rug, the membership is not organized to replace that leadership, and LNC does not want to even consider disaffiliation – even if it’s just to vote it down after some fact finding. They believe that the non-specific statements HQ has already issued are enough to address the problem. Meanwhile, the entryist cancer is metastasizing and about to aggressively spread nationwide.

    Meanwhile, LNC members including Daniel Hayes and Caryn Ann Harlos have posted followup messages that not only does this need to be left to the affiliate which shows zero signs of doing anything about it, but that the real problem is that the national LP has not addressed political violence by the far left, as if that was a problem in the LP. They want the LP to be on record pushing the same false equivalence as Trump – “violence on many sides” and “lots of good people” chanting “Blood and Soil” and “Jews will not replace us” etc. This is not only tone-deaf and counterfactual but will actively aid and abet the planned fascist takeover of the LP that Knapp talks about @ 0426.

  21. Anthony Dlugos

    “Meanwhile, LNC members including Daniel Hayes and Caryn Ann Harlos have posted followup messages that not only does this need to be left to the affiliate which shows zero signs of doing anything about it, but that the real problem is that the national LP has not addressed political violence by the far left, as if that was a problem in the LP. They want the LP to be on record pushing the same false equivalence as Trump – “violence on many sides” and “lots of good people” chanting “Blood and Soil” and “Jews will not replace us” etc.”

    Highly disappointing.

  22. paulie Post author

    Their remarks are here:

    Harlos http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/2017/010572.html

    Hayes http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/2017/010570.html

    Starchild hasn’t read the links I sent and can’t even tell whether Ramsey is really a white nationalist http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/2017/010573.html

    Ken Moellman believes the statements from Wes and Nick that have already gone out condemning racism are enough to deal with the problem http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/2017/010571.html

    Demarest believes disaffiliation is too extreme and the current motion for a resolution (what motion is that? – p) is the wiser choice. I’m not aware of any such motion. http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/2017/010569.html

    Hayes believes discriminating against bigots is itself bigoted, the party has moved to the left and “the violence advocated by people from that position has largely been ignored.” Also that the way to dissociate from people is to stop talking about them, even if they sit on state exec comms and have plans to move up to national (he didn’t say the last part). “If you are not ready to make a motion to disaffiliate Florida. It might be time to shut up.” http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/2017/010568.html

    Highly disappointing.

    I agree.

  23. Anthony Dlugos

    paulie,

    even though we frequently disagree, you got common sense. you can come of the “party of principle” high horse and understand where the real threat to this party comes from.

    anyone who thinks the LP has just as much a far left problem is not paying attention or nuts.

  24. paulie Post author

    anyone who thinks the LP has just as much a far left problem is not paying attention or nuts.

    Yes, and the violence of the far left is not nearly as deadly in the world at large in recent decades, much less the problem of infiltrating LP/LM, as discussed at length in my article and comments thereon. It’s just sad to see LNC members have this kind of inadequate response to a rapidly metastasizing cancer in our Florida region. That cancer is aggressive and about to spread in a major way.

  25. Anthony Dlugos

    “It’s just sad to see LNC members have this kind of inadequate response to a rapidly metastasizing cancer in our Florida region.”

    Its what happens when “party of principle” is taken to a pathological level. It pushes plain common sense out of the neurotransmitters.

  26. Starchild

    Paulie – I think you’ve somewhat mischaracterized what I just posted to the LNC list, which you linked above (October 26, 2017 at 08:06). You write,
    “Starchild hasn’t read the links I sent and can’t even tell whether Ramsey is really a white nationalist http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/2017/010573.html

    In that message, I wrote:
    “My personal belief is that Ryan Ramsey likely does hold bigoted white supremacist type views, but while the the evidence for this may be cumulatively compelling (walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc.), it also seems to be largely circumstantial.”

    No question he’s got nationalist views; circumstantial evidence suggest racist views as well, but in the context of the Libertarian National Committee getting involved in a state affiliate’s affairs, I think a higher bar needs to be met. I hope to get a chance to chat with Ryan and ask him directly about his beliefs.

    In the meantime, what I recommended is that we pay more attention to how our messaging and practices (e.g. use of the American flag) may be encouraging nationalism. If the LP is more clearly anti-nationalist as we should be*, there’s less chance the party will look welcoming to fascist/white supremacist/neo-Nazi types.

    *I also wrote in my LNC post reference above, “Nationalism is itself, I believe, a form of bigotry akin to racism. It is an anti-individualist philosophy which, translated into government policy, results in virtually every national government in the world wrongfully discriminating against people on the basis of innate characteristics beyond their control (where they were born or who their parents were). It also tends to lead people to take un-libertarian positions, such as being willing to initiate force against immigrants, supporting protectionism, and accepting various rights violations in the name of “national security”. Nationalism can also serve as a cover for racism, because nationalist and racist views often dovetail when it comes to issues like immigration, racial profiling in the name of “national security”, the U.S. government killing people in other countries, etc. But despite being as repugnant as racism, nationalism has so far largely gotten a pass from society including from many (L)ibertarians.”

  27. Anthony Dlugos

    In the meantime, what I recommended is that we pay more attention to how our messaging and practices (e.g. use of the American flag) may be encouraging nationalism.

    If I understand this correctly, I hardly think use of the American flag is our primary vector for encouraging nationalism.

  28. Starchild

    Also Paulie, I have looked at some of the links in your messages, just not all of them. Some of the stuff I’ve seen before here on IPR. It can be a hurdle for LNC members (or anybody) to parse a large amount of linked info from various sources. I think people writing to us about complex issues like this would do well to provide their strongest specifics up front, and focus on those, with links and additional material provided more as footnotes for those who want to do further research.

  29. Starchild

    Anthony – I just mentioned it as one obvious example where it would be fairly easy to improve our practices. What do you think is the primary vector?

  30. Starchild

    Anthony Dlugus writes (October 26, 2017 at 09:22):

    “(Inadequate response to ethno-nationalism) is what happens when ‘party of principle’ is taken to a pathological level. It pushes plain common sense out of the neurotransmitters.”

    I call B.S. on that, Anthony. If the LP had more consistently promoted principled libertarianism and been more vigilant about not allowing un-libertarian philosophies like nationalism to creep in, it’s less likely we’d be dealing with this problem right now.

  31. Anthony Dlugos

    “What do you think is the primary vector?”

    The NAP, the messianic mission of a “world set free in our lifetimes,” the SoP, “taxation is theft” and other shibboleths. It just begs to draw in wackadoodles. You are NOT one of those wackadoodles, but it draws them in anyway.

    If you make the goal an esoteric “more consistently promoting principled libertarianism,” the nationalist just has to argue his/her stances ARE libertarian principles. Even if wrong, that person is already inside the tent, f*cking us up.

  32. paulie Post author

    I think you’ve somewhat mischaracterized what I just posted to the LNC list, which you linked above

    Sorry. That’s why I provide links in my comments here so people can see for themselves. It’s also why I provided links in the email I sent you (long comments way above), which you did say you had not read yet.

    No question he’s got nationalist views; circumstantial evidence suggest racist views as well,

    It’s not just circumstantial. To quote part of the email I sent you and others yet again…Paul Stanton wrote

    Additionally, he is a leader in a white supremacist group, the American Guard, a spin-off group of the violent anti-immigrant Sons of Odin – founded by Brien James (who also founded the Vinlanders – a Neo-Nazi group responsible for dozens of murders). The crossed cleavers in their shield is a reference to 19th century anti-immigrant gang leader, Bill the Butcher – an advocacy of violence against immigrants.

    Ryan Ramsey himself covers white nationalist “Rock Against Communism” bands like Screwdriver (sic), and advocates for Operation Werewolf. He has called the LNC Chair Nick Sarwark “Nazi Nick,” citing Nick’s Jewish religion, then blaming people “disingenuous political leaders like Nick Sarwark” for the rise of the Nazi Party and ultimately the Holocaust.

    That section itself contains several links which can be seen at
    https://groups.google.com/forum/embed/#!topic/lpfec/7Ii6WazfTGo so you can learn more about some of those groups/bands/etc. For example “American Guard” links to http://adl.org/blog/behind-the-american-guard-hardcore-white-supremacists and there are several others.

    Just within the last few days he put out a facebook “meme” with hook-nosed jews straight out of 1930s nazi propaganda – directly reproduced from a 1930s nazi textbook. It can be seen if you scroll up.

    I also said

    “I also republished http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/libertarians-united-against-fascism-to-the-cowardly-collaborators-of-the-libertarian-party-of-florida-and-a-call-to-action-against-them/ (note that the original and its website were taken down so the images no longer appear; scroll down to see the section about Ryan Ramsey as the last part of the article).”

    Please read the last part of that article at least, the part about Ramsey. The images were at the original publication which has since been taken down so keep reading til you get to the row of social media icons at the end of the article and the comments start.

    You would have to be either very naive or simply not have read the links to believe that Ramsey is not currently an active racist. But being a racist was just the first part of your test

    (1) a current Florida LP state-level official making clearly racist statements, or clear and credible threats of violence, and (2) the Florida LP leadership being aware of this and taking no action whatsoever to condemn it or distance the Florida LP from it,

    Paul Stanton, Joe Wendt, Tom Knapp, myself, and numerous others have provided plenty of evidence that all of the above is in fact the case. Ramsey is on LPF exec com, has made racist statements, has made clear threats of violence many times and indeed does so habitually, and LPF exec comm is well aware of all these facts and in active denial.

    If the Florida LP leadership offered no reasonable response to such a letter and continued to not take any remedial action, especially if it became clear that this was part of a pattern of ignoring racism or serious Non-Aggression Principle violations from state leaders, then I would be ready to entertain a motion to disaffiliate.

    This is exactly what they have done. Keep in mind that they did nothing about Invictus, Chipman, Caprio etc either, and to these day continue to appoint as many of them as allow themselves to be appoint to LPF positions.

    You did say

    But – and I confess I have not read all the links and background on this

    and

    I’m not sure even the first condition stated above has been met.

    Please read the links and background. All of the conditions have been met.

    I think a higher bar needs to be met.

    I agree, and I would consider the ongoing threats of violence, and the state party’s express unwillingness to dissociate, plus the plans of the altreich entryists to do the same thing at the national level, to be that higher bar.

  33. paulie Post author

    . It can be a hurdle for LNC members (or anybody) to parse a large amount of linked info from various sources. I think people writing to us about complex issues like this would do well to provide their strongest specifics up front, and focus on those, with links and additional material provided more as footnotes for those who want to do further research.

    I’m not sure how to best organize all this material. I have a lot of other things to do as well. If anyone wants to help me organize it to put the “best” stuff up front I would welcome the help. However, a lot of it only makes sense in context. If you don’t know the iconography it may not mean that much. For example if you don’t know the history of “Rock Against Communism” you would think it would be a good thing. If you don’t look through a bunch of links and links within links about the American Guard you may think it is a lot more innocuous than it actually is in fact. And so on. Only when taking all these things in each other’s context does the full pattern become clear.

  34. paulie Post author

    Anthony – I just mentioned it as one obvious example where it would be fairly easy to improve our practices. What do you think is the primary vector?

    “paleolibertarianism”

  35. Caryn Ann Harlos

    Paulie you have disappointingly completely misrepresented what I said. I expect better.

    First I didn’t say the “real problem was the left.” CITATION NEEDED. Not. Once. I said there is ALSO a left problem (Party members, *INCLUDING MY STATE CHAIRS AND REGION 1 MEMBERS*- you know, the affiliates that I am supposed to representing – have contacted me on that issue- and frankly that is who I answer to). I regularly get updates on far left agitating going on, and I tell them the same thing – here are your rights, this is what you can do in your affiliate, but this is an affiliate matter. But there is a silence on the part of national to deal at all with the far left, and that’s a fact. It is painfully obvious. I think it is part and parcel of the LP swing – when a Republican is in office, we favour left, and vice versa. We are very rightfully vocal on the far right identitarian nonsense but that is not the only nonsense. There is no need to find some equivalency – it is ridiculous. They are different. They present different dangers and a lot of it is regional. We don’t have a single “alt right” issue in Colorado. Not one. What our members are concerned about is frankly the far left. You may not like that, but that is the reality in the Western states. That may change. My answer will be the same. LNC meddling is almost guaranteed to do more harm than good as has been demonstrated pyrotechnically in the past. And the fact that opposing views are not even represented fairly in disagreement is proving my point.

    Anyone can go back to my posts about Oregon and see that my position is precisely the same.

    I will not be posting further on this thread – the hysteria that goes on in our Party is out of control (and yes that includes anti-left hysteria as well which includes Chair Sarwark being subject to some really inappropriate and vicious things). I would not have posted at all but for that gross misrepresentation.

    I could post on how precisely it would get to a point for an investigation etc, but one thing I have learned in this conversation is that one can clearly say water is wet and somehow it gets repeated back as water is warm, and I am not particularly interested in that. When my words can be twisted to say I think the *real* problem is the left, there is no point. We have many problems, and I don’t play the game of trying to shoehorn them into some equivalency scale. That is really quite a utilitarian methodology, so it is no surprise that I don’t do it. I really think you owe me a retraction Paulie.

    But I would appreciate NOT being misrepresented. I said no such thing. To use a phrase from here. Highly disappointing.

  36. paulie Post author

    Paulie you have disappointingly completely misrepresented what I said. I expect better.

    First I didn’t say the “real problem was the left.” CITATION NEEDED.

    Citation was provided, and I did not say what you said that I said you said.

    What I actually said was

    Meanwhile, LNC members including Daniel Hayes and Caryn Ann Harlos have posted followup messages that not only does this need to be left to the affiliate which shows zero signs of doing anything about it, but that the real problem is that the national LP has not addressed political violence by the far left, as if that was a problem in the LP.

    I added the emphasis to illustrate the difference between what I said you said on the one hand, and what you said I said you said on the other.

    As for citation it was in my next message:

    Harlos http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/2017/010572.html

    Hayes http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/2017/010570.html

  37. paulie Post author

    I usually can’t stomach reading paragraphs this long, but for Caryn Ann I will. However my response will have to be broken up.

    I said there is ALSO a left problem

    Yes, but in this context it’s a distraction. In the world at large, yes there is left wing political violence, but it’s far less deadly than right wing political violence in recent decades. In the LP and L movement more specifically though, left wing political violence is not a factor. We are talking about rabid racists making a major beachhead in one of our largest affiliates, routinely using threats and intimidation of actual violence as well as legal threats to suppress opposition, driving out numerous activists including several past statewide candidates and a past state chair, and threatening to take this shit show national. If there is a similar problem in any state LP from the left please let me know where.

    But there is a silence on the part of national to deal at all with the far left, and that’s a fact.

    I had a whole long article and very long discussion on that. It’s still there for anyone who wants to read it.

    We don’t have a single “alt right” issue in Colorado. Not one. What our members are concerned about is frankly the far left.

    Within the LP? You have the far left organizing within the Colorado LP and and using threats of violence to drive out numerous party activists and leaders?

    I could post on how precisely it would get to a point for an investigation etc

    Yes, please do. Online or offline.

    When my words can be twisted to say I think the *real* problem is the left,

    Except that was not what I said and I linked back to exactly what you in fact said.

    I really think you owe me a retraction Paulie.

    I would if I had made the inaccurate claim you attribute to me. I have been wrong plenty of times before and have no problem admitting it when I am. As it stands I believe the shoe is on the other foot. And I would be interested in those steps to get a real investigation. That would have to happen first before disaffiliation could even be rationally considered.

    But I would appreciate NOT being misrepresented.

    That makes two of us.

    I said no such thing

    On that we agree. You said what I actually said you said, and sad it is.

    To use a phrase from here. Highly disappointing.

    Squared.

  38. Anthony Dlugos

    “We are talking about rabid racists making a major beachhead in one of our largest affiliates, routinely using threats and intimidation of actual violence as well as legal threats to suppress opposition, driving out numerous activists including several past statewide candidates and a past state chair, and threatening to take this shit show national. ”

    Damn straight.

  39. Starchild

    In response to my asking ““What do you think is the primary vector?” (for nationalism coming into the LP), Anthony Dlugos writes in part (October 26, 2017 at 10:19),

    “The NAP, the messianic mission of a ‘world set free in our lifetimes,’ the SoP, ‘taxation is theft’ and other shibboleths. It just begs to draw in wackadoodles. You are NOT one of those wackadoodles, but it draws them in anyway. If you make the goal an esoteric ‘more consistently promoting principled libertarianism,’ the nationalist just has to argue his/her stances ARE libertarian principles.”

    I’m sorry Anthony, but it makes zero sense to claim that talking about a world (emphasis added) set free in our lifetimes somehow makes the Libertarian Party more attractive to nationalists! Nationalists also tend to put the perceived interests of “the nation” (in practice read: the government) ahead of those of the individual taxpayer, hence they are more likely than defenders of individual rights to be apologists for coercive taxation and not acknowledge that it is theft.

    I appreciate you not labeling me as a “wackadoodle”, but as you know they come in many different varieties, and someone of one variety is not necessarily attracted to other varieties. Do you think a Jehovah’s Witness is likely to get along well with a follower of Daesh, for instance? Not likely! No more so than a rabid nationalist is likely to see eye to eye with someone who thinks 9/11 was an inside job.

    Another variety of wackadoodles are the practitioners of what C. Wright Mills called “crackpot realism”:

    “For Mills, this signified a frame of mind characteristic of what another elite theorist, Thomas R. Dye, has called ‘the serious people’ of the governing circles. Such people are to be distinguished from the glad-handing, back-slapping buffoons who seek and gain election to public office. The electoral office seekers are specialists: they know how to get votes, but as a rule they know nothing about how to ‘run a railroad,’ whether that railroad be a business, a government agency, or any other sort of large operating organization. So, after the election, the elected office holders always turn to the serious people to run the show—the Dick Cheneys and the Donald Rumsfelds, to pick not so randomly from the current corps.

    The serious people always pretend to be the grownups, as opposed to the starry-eyed rest of us, who couldn’t run Halliburton or G. D. Searle & Co. if our lives depended on it. These are the sorts of executives who are tempted to, and sometimes actually do, roll their eyes at the silly questions journalists ask them at press conferences. Visibly pained by the necessity of spelling out the facts of life, they explain that childish things, such as keeping the country at peace, simply won’t get the job done**. Sometimes, the public must recognize that as a no-nonsense response to the harsh situation we face, the serious people have to drop some bombs here and there in order to reestablish a proper arrangement of the world’s currently disordered affairs. The serious people are frequently to be found ‘stabilizing’ something or other.

    Trouble is, Mills explained, these serious people are fools. They seem to know what’s going on, and how to right what’s wrong with the world, only if one accepts their own view of how the world works. So ‘practical’ are these serious people, however, that they understand nothing beyond their noses and outside the circle of their own constricted understanding and experience. Strange to say, the power elite does not get out much—remember the first President Bush’s amazement when he, a former Director of Central Intelligence, visited a supermarket and encountered for the first time the mind-boggling technology of a bar-code reader at the checkout counter.”

    http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=798

    **Picture Bill Weld talking about the need to hire 1,000 more FBI agents.

    As far as making the goal “an esoteric ‘more consistently promoting principled libertarianism,'”, the Non-Aggression Principle is really not esoteric at all. It’s quite simple: Don’t initiate force or fraud. The broad outlines of how to apply it to public police are also quite simple: Minimize the size, scope, cost, and power of the coercively-funded State, to the smallest size consistent with maximizing individual freedom. When considering a proposed law, regulation, policy, etc., ask, “Is it voluntary?” and “Will this tend to increase the power of the People relative to the State, or increase the power of the State relative to the People?”

  40. Anon-Tipper

    Here is the shortest write-up of Ryan Ramsey I could come up with, there is clear documented proof that he is a member of a white-nationalist organization, the American Guard, and actively maintains relationships with various figures from the alt-right:

    He is a member of the American Guard which is listed on his blog: https://libertarianheathen.com/
    and he was mentioned in this SPLC article about the American Guard only recently removing Augustus Invictus:
    https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2017/09/22/american-guard-ousts-augustus-invictus-citing-his-support-poisonous-ideas

    Quoting Brien James, from the American Guard: https://www.facebook.com/libertarianheathen/posts/2018534201713508
    Link to a screenshot, just in case he deletes this: https://imgur.com/a/ivcFt

    SPLC on Brien James: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/brien-james

    ADL on the American Guard: https://www.adl.org/blog/behind-the-american-guard-hardcore-white-supremacists

    Video from Bradford Country Libertarian Party YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg1aRoMX_8&feature=youtu.be

    He is wearing a “Tribe Matters” t-shirt, this is from alt-right podcast “The Pressure Project”: http://www.thepressureproject.com/tpp-245-augustus-invictus-on-charlottesville/
    (If the shirt isn’t on this page, look for the merchandise section of the website)

    He is also wearing this shirt on his facebook profile: https://www.facebook.com/libertarianheathen/

    There is also a video of Frank Caprio on this channel where the Libertarian Party of Bradford County Florida invited The American Guard, The Revolutionary Conservative, the 3%’ers, and The Sons of Confederate Veterans to their event:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DSPu0a5i-M

    He has this image as his facebook banner, him in front of a confederate flag: https://www.facebook.com/libertarianheathen/photos/a.1954918298075099.1073741827.1954915414742054/1959791684254427/?type=1&theater
    Screenshot: https://imgur.com/a/TaTTT

    Mad American Network is an alt-right podcast.

    He is in a “Rock Against Communism” Band called Lovecrime: https://libertarianheathen.com/2016/04/24/lovecrime-respect-the-gift/

    “Rock Against Communism” is a genre associated with neo-nazi, white supremacist, and far-right politics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Against_Communism

    He has called the chairman “Nazi Nick” and said “people like him” were responsible for the holocaust: http://archive.is/EMZPY

    Also note in that link, he has a banner ad for alternativeright.com. There are also links on the side and bottom to “National-anarchist” websites/information.

    National-anarchism advocates that different ethnic and racial groups should peacefully coexist by developing separately in their own confederations of autonomous tribal communes within a post-capitalist stateless society: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National-anarchism

    Libertarians United Against Fascism has already done a profile on him and his partner Brandi: http://archive.is/t5jC7

  41. Starchild

    Paulie – I will try to read more of the links and stuff, time/patience permitting. But the last sentence of your post October 26, 2017 at 10:44 kind of sums up the problem.

    You wrote, “Only when taking all these things in each other’s context does the full pattern become clear. And that is part of what I was getting at when I referred to the evidence as circumstantial – its persuasiveness is dependent on one’s having a good grasp on the overall picture. Finding, upon gathering up a whole bunch of pieces of evidence, that the sum total seems pretty damning, is unfortunately not a good substitute, politically or legalistically, for having a specific, actionable offense or two to work with.

    One may view it as kind of similar to the problem that Donald Trump presents to those who understand he is totally unfit to hold the office of POTUS: There are a million pieces of evidence pointing to that conclusion, and looked at in sum total they should make it glaringly obvious to anyone not wearing partisan blinders, but so far the pieces just haven’t quite coalesced into any one solid impeachable offense by the standards of mainstream politics.

  42. Anthony Dlugos

    “There are a million pieces of evidence pointing to that conclusion, and looked at in sum total they should make it glaringly obvious to anyone not wearing partisan blinders, but so far the pieces just haven’t quite coalesced into any one solid impeachable offense by the standards of mainstream politics.”

    True. Although Gene Healy at Cato has pointed out that the original intent of impeachment would have included Trump’s erratic behavior:

    https://www.cato.org/blog/impeachment-impulsive-ignorant-incompetence

    One of our earliest impeachments—the first to result in a federal officer’s removal—fell into that category. It involved federal judge John Pickering, a man “of loose morals and intemperate habits,” per the charges against him. Pickering had committed no crime, but was removed by the Senate in 1804 for the “high misdemeanor” of showing up to work drunk and ranting like a maniac in court. Such conduct was “disgraceful to his own character as a judge, and degrading to the honor and dignity of the United States.”

  43. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    FYI. I did ask Stanton if he wanted to go further, expose them through a press conference, etc. But he said “it’s not my problem anymore”. I can understand.

    As referenced above in relation to how in denial some of Florida party members are, I wrote to him: “I’ve given Ramsey some grief on his County Party page and I can see how good he is at denying and wiggling his out of what is clearly true. People who afraid of a fight find that a way of keeping out of the fight. ”

    As for a nice coherent expose, I love to do those and have been collecting everything into a file. It’s been a bad health month on a couple issues, so I’m way behind on a LOT of things. However, it would be good to have a nice big PDF in several PDF formats, including reprintable booklet form. We’ll see…

  44. Caryn Ann Harlos

    I also did not say that was the REAL problem either Paulie. Poor form. Not even a little bit. I said it was A problem. I didn’t compare the two as to which one was real, etc.

    There is a big difference.

    Out.

  45. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    As for the left complaints, I haven’t seen evidence of force or fraud or advocacy of statist regimes (or secret plans to drive landowners off their land that are equivalent to secret alt-right plans to do that to unwanted races).

    So I think the complaints are more about lifestyles and macho flash and a knee-jerk reaction to anything sounding leftist, which is based both on unhappy college experiences but even more from too much exposure to alt-right group think and memes.

    And let’s not forget the fear of chubby boys stripping with no coherent reason or excuse given at the time. Unlike, say, 20 scantily glad individuals protesting loudly and explicitly the removal of the abortion plank; a real issue… 🙂

    Flimsey gender bender costumes and wild hair colors also might bother them. Not to mention Vermin Supreme. And anarchism in general. And evidently NAP, though I’m waiting for someone to explain why. I keep asking for links to relevant articles but can’t seem to get any to study.

  46. Anthony Dlugos

    Starchild,

    As an aside, its been my experience that the radicals/purists/NAPsters who are working to grow the party from some sort of position inside the party are genuine, usually the hardest workers, and truly interested in the success of the party.

    Its the ones who end up running for office who strike me as self-interested snake oil salesmen/women.

  47. paulie Post author

    And that is part of what I was getting at when I referred to the evidence as circumstantial – its persuasiveness is dependent on one’s having a good grasp on the overall picture. Finding, upon gathering up a whole bunch of pieces of evidence, that the sum total seems pretty damning, is unfortunately not a good substitute, politically or legalistically, for having a specific, actionable offense or two to work with.

    See the links from anon-tipper. Scroll up, I just approved them.

  48. paulie Post author

    but so far the pieces just haven’t quite coalesced into any one solid impeachable offense by the standards of mainstream politics.

    I don’t want to get too far off track in this thread but I agree with the case for impeachment hinted at by Tom Steyer in this video, in addition to other things. Yes, I do know Tom Steyer is a highly partisan Democrat but I think he is right on the money here:

    If you or others want to discuss that tangent please do so in a different thread.

    Likewise in the case of Ramsey/FL I think there is a very good case for at the very least an investigation that could potentially lead to disaffiliation. I’m interested to know what the steps are.

  49. paulie Post author

    I also did not say that was the REAL problem either Paulie. Poor form. Not even a little bit. I said it was A problem. I didn’t compare the two as to which one was real, etc.

    There is a big difference.

    Out.

    My apologies for any mangling. I linked to what exactly you said, more than once now. In terms of any new action by LNC it seems to me that what you and Daniel are saying is that none needs to take place – not a resolution, not an investigation into whether disaffiliation could be worth debating, if anything that the statements that have already been issued are enough to address the problem. But where you see HQ falling short is in not addressing violence from the left. This was in the context of the the latest but not first ex-statewide candidate and up til now current state exec comm member to resign due to the aggressively metastasizing cancer of rabid racists who routine issue violent threats and other forms of intimidation and plan on taking this act on the road who also hold titles in LPF.

    I apologize for any mischaracterization of your remarks but IMO what they boil down to is that we have already addressed right wing political violence and now need to address left wing political violence. Since I appear to be bad at interpreting your words and links are not sufficient here it is in your own words:

    Their Board voted and
    unless we think the whole of that leadership are secret nazis then we have
    no right or authority to be second-guessing their decision for their state.

    I routinely get complaints about such and such going on here and there. I
    listen, tell them their rights, and say it is for their state to handle.
    Wes brilliant release said what we needed to. I wish we would say the same
    to the violent left.

  50. Tony From Long Island

    Paulie, I have been called a “highly partisan democrat” at times (though I don’t think that’s totally accurate). However, I don’t think any of the things cited in Tom Steyer’s video rise to the level of impeachment.

    You know how I feel about Drupmf. You know that think he is inept, incompetent, clueless, uninformed, juvenile, mentally ill and an overall disgusting person. However, I don’t see any impeachable offenses. 25th Amendnment – yes. Impeach – not yet.

    In 13 months there will a rather large blue wave that will render Drumpf completely powerless for the following two years.

  51. paulie Post author

    Regarding Caryn Ann’s comparison of Oregon and Florida:

    In Oregon, the LP pre-existed its affiliation with national, and the ballot line is quite obviously with the state party as recognized by Oregon SOS. If the LNC chooses to affiliate with some group that is not recognized by the SOS as the state LP, and disaffiliate the group that is so recognized, that state-recognized group will continue to control the ballot line after it is disaffiliated from LNC. The group that the LNC at that point recognizes still wouldn’t be on the ballot unless LNC spends a lot of money to put them on. Given those facts, the LNC has very little sway over the state-recognize LPO(R).

    In Florida, the state government has recently determined that only state parties which are affiliated with national parties that are recognized as national parties by the FEC can be on the ballot, and all other parties have an extremely difficult petition requirement. There are very few national parties recognized by FEC – iirc it’s 5, and the LP happens to be one of them. If my understanding of Florida law is correct, who the LNC affiliates with (or not) has a great deal to do with who gets ballot access in Florida and who doesn’t.

    Furthermore the Florida situation is more dire than even the worst accusations against anyone in Oregon. One side accused the other side in Oregon of being a bunch of stoner anarchists who don’t follow the party’s own rules and bylaws. The other side accused the first side of being a bunch of semi-closeted Republicans engaged in petty corruption, theft of party funds, abuse of party office for intra-party factional disputes (well that charge was mutual)… Compare that with Florida, where one side calls the other a bunch of Marxists and Zionist foreign agents etc etc while the other stands accused of being a bunch of violent racist terrorists. I hope I have made it clear why I believe the second part is actually true. That’s a level of accusations that not even Oregon ever approached, and they spent literally decades at each other’s throats – and as far as I know still are, fully planning to bring the matter again to the next national convention, next LNC, next JC and the ones after that and so on.

  52. paulie Post author

    However, I don’t see any impeachable offenses.

    I do, but I’d rather not discuss it here and honestly I don’t want to spend a bunch of time on it in another thread either.

    In 13 months there will a rather large blue wave that will render Drumpf completely powerless for the following two years.

    Maybe, maybe not. I think you predicted a Clinton landslide too.

  53. Tony From Long Island

    Maybe, maybe not. I think you predicted a Clinton landslide too.

    You’d have to find that post! However, 3 million is a bit of a landslide 🙂

    Especially when you consider how many people didn’t vote because they didn’t like her or voted for someone else because they didn’t like her (including me).

    However, I stand by my #BlueWave2018 . . . . . just imagine how big that wave would be without the insane right-wing gerrymandering 🙂

  54. paulie Post author

    Here is the shortest write-up of Ryan Ramsey I could come up with, there is clear documented proof that he is a member of a white-nationalist organization, the American Guard, and actively maintains relationships with various figures from the alt-right:

    He is a member of the American Guard which is listed on his blog: https://libertarianheathen.com/
    and he was mentioned in this SPLC article about the American Guard only recently removing Augustus Invictus:
    https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2017/09/22/american-guard-ousts-augustus-invictus-citing-his-support-poisonous-ideas

    Quoting Brien James, from the American Guard: https://www.facebook.com/libertarianheathen/posts/2018534201713508
    Link to a screenshot, just in case he deletes this: https://imgur.com/a/ivcFt

    SPLC on Brien James: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/brien-james

    ADL on the American Guard: https://www.adl.org/blog/behind-the-american-guard-hardcore-white-supremacists

    Video from Bradford Country Libertarian Party YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg1aRoMX_8&feature=youtu.be

    He is wearing a “Tribe Matters” t-shirt, this is from alt-right podcast “The Pressure Project”: http://www.thepressureproject.com/tpp-245-augustus-invictus-on-charlottesville/
    (If the shirt isn’t on this page, look for the merchandise section of the website)

    He is also wearing this shirt on his facebook profile: https://www.facebook.com/libertarianheathen/

    There is also a video of Frank Caprio on this channel where the Libertarian Party of Bradford County Florida invited The American Guard, The Revolutionary Conservative, the 3%’ers, and The Sons of Confederate Veterans to their event:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DSPu0a5i-M

    He has this image as his facebook banner, him in front of a confederate flag: https://www.facebook.com/libertarianheathen/photos/a.1954918298075099.1073741827.1954915414742054/1959791684254427/?type=1&theater
    Screenshot: https://imgur.com/a/TaTTT

    Mad American Network is an alt-right podcast.

    He is in a “Rock Against Communism” Band called Lovecrime: https://libertarianheathen.com/2016/04/24/lovecrime-respect-the-gift/

    “Rock Against Communism” is a genre associated with neo-nazi, white supremacist, and far-right politics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Against_Communism

    He has called the chairman “Nazi Nick” and said “people like him” were responsible for the holocaust: http://archive.is/EMZPY

    Also note in that link, he has a banner ad for alternativeright.com. There are also links on the side and bottom to “National-anarchist” websites/information.

    National-anarchism advocates that different ethnic and racial groups should peacefully coexist by developing separately in their own confederations of autonomous tribal communes within a post-capitalist stateless society: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National-anarchism

    Libertarians United Against Fascism has already done a profile on him and his partner Brandi: http://archive.is/t5jC7

    Thank you! I linked some of that earlier but I think a lot of people did not click thru.

  55. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    I did note Ramsey (perhaps in a link above) made a big deal of American Guard kicking out Augustus Disgustus, as if THAT proved they were NOT dominated by people whose rhetoric is as bad or worse than his own, as evidenced above by Paulie and others. Yup, it’s called the Big Lie…

  56. Ryan Ramsey

    My Response to Commie Paul and his nonsense:

    Ladies and Gentleman,

    As far as what I have read, consider the source.

    Paul Frankel is a fraud and criminal, and is upset that I documented his crimes after a hit piece he wrote on me in the Republican owned rag IPR, which exists solely to sabotage the Libertarian Party, and has been the source for every negative article ever written about the LPF, from John Wayne Smith, to Alexander George, Franklin Perez, Augustus, and myself. Redich was/is on the Broward Repubican EC, now suppoosedly a Democrat, but a rival in any case. He threatened me with calling law enforcement when I asked him to take down the ANTIFA terrorist threats that doxxed my pregnant wife and threatened to “burn down our convention” from his website. Like most of what I have read here it is projecting their misconduct onto me.

    Here is an article on who Paul Frankel really is, and some of his shenanigans with Paul. If anyone is an embarrassment to the LNC it is a guy convicted of election related felonies who still has not paid the fines for the crimes, and an open member of the Marxist terror organization collectively known as ANTIFA. He kidnapped a rivals dog, tortured it, and killed it. I can never be that evil.

    Before you look at who represents Florida you should look into your own glass house and ask why he is using official LNC email on his non-party website to undermine the LPF.

    https://libertarianheathen.com/2017/04/11/meet-paul-frankel-editor-in-chief-at-ipr-antifa-terrorist-and-former-fugitivelnc-regional-alternate/

    Stanton has broken campaign finance laws, and I filed one of multiple complaints. He and his supporters are responsible for voter fraud according to the evidence I have. He wants to discredit me, because I raised the concerns last year as an EC member. As far as Stanton’s latest barrage, he dredged up an old friend I had a falling out with. This article details my evidence against him and the story behind Dave Champion.

    https://libertarianheathen.com/2017/10/22/dave-champion-sjw-and-federal-snitch/

    I stand by my statements about Commissar Sarwark. I know many of you like and respect him. I do not like or respect him. He was a guest at our 2016 Convention in Florida. He saw me walk by at the bar, and launched into a bigoted tirade about my religious tattoos without having the slightest idea who I was. I was unaware at the time

    I went to the speech that morning, prior to my first unanimous election as Region 4 Representative. He spoke of the imperative not to attack other libertarians. It was inspirational. I tried to speak to him after and he all but ran away. I was incredulous, but another Region Rep explained that he was at the bar that night and heard his bigoted remarks towards me. Like “why get celtic tattoos, just admit you’re a Nazi”. “I was a lawyer for skinheads”, he said, “look at that Nazi fuck”.

    I emailed him the following week, and the little rat denied it. I sent him a bunch of video of me in the legislature and documented what I have done for the movement and he made a snarky comment about…wow ..I cant believe you did all that looking like you do.

    When he came out in support of ANTIFA after the first Berkely riot, I wrote the quoted article. I am glad it was brought up, as this is DANGEROUS territory. Fascism is societies immune response to Communism. Just as an immune response can make you sick, so it is with society. Democracy is the road to socialism. The rule of law is a principled evaluation respecting the individual. Democracy is mob rule, and there are always more poor than rich. Class division can be exploited, and soon you have Socialism. We are the Weimar, and anyone who wishes to dispute it may call or email to discuss.

    A people used to collectivism, by the desensitization that Democratic Socialism provides, confronts Communism with a Fascist Strongman. Every time. Germany, Italy, and Argentina…you name it. I challenge any of you to show me a fascist movement that did not start with an opposition to Marxist uprising.

    Marxism is the dominant collectivist ideology on earth and it should be our focus to oppose it. Again, prove it if you want to challenge it.

    So if Nick Sarwark is publicly sympathetic to Marxist ANTIFA, then he is directly contributing to the rise of Fascism. I am actually having more difficulty fighting Fascism because of people like Sarwark. If the chair of America’s 3rd biggest party is so ignorant of how Fascism works, and is also Jewish…I would say he is a disgrace. His hypocrisy to trash me without knowing me, the night before delivering a speech about not attacking other Libertarians is pure hypocrisy. Personal character trumps all for me.

    So fuck Nick Sarwark, and I am approaching enough likely delegates to unseat him in June, and it aint even Christmas. I reserve the right to believe the LNC can do better than 3.6%. Being a con-man is great at the used car lot, it is where he belongs. He refused a peace offer a few months ago, he’s smug and confident in his BS, let that beef settle with delegate counts in June. I will buy the asshat a shot of whiskey if he wins, as a show of honor. Just understand the backdrop, and that Nick started it, and has had multiple opportunities to fix it. When he goes the way of Adrian, Stanton, Augustus, and Char-Lez, it’s his own damn fault.

    I personally think Nick is racially insensitive and wrote about it a few months ago.

    https://libertarianheathen.com/2017/05/28/libertarian-party-chairman-insults-women-and-victims-of-jim-crow/

    I also advocated for a black man to replace him, and supported the Cuban for Chair, while Stanton backed the white guy.

    https://libertarianheathen.com/2017/02/14/replace-nick-sarwark-with-this-guy/

    As far as racism, I risked my life multiple times to leave, and help others leave, racist groups. The American Guard exists as a means to divert people away from ethnic nationalism, the fact that some of us were far right in the past is a testament to their honor. It is taking responsibility for the past and deflating that balloon. I think our position is clear when reading our reasons for ejecting Augustus. When the LPF attacked him it was BS. They kept it up so long Augustus said..”screw it, might as well hang out with nazis since they always call me that”.

    That is weak. The American Guard ejected him by unanimous vote of the state presidents in less than 48 hours post Charlottesville. The LPF could not do it in 2 years. Maybe we should give the LPF Affiliation to the AG? Read it and decide if we just have black gay guys and latino state leaders as “Tokens”, what Tom Knapp called them in a racist tirade.

    https://libertarianheathen.com/2017/09/20/official-american-guard-statement-on-the-removal-of-augustus-invictus/

    A note on Knapp, I point blank asked him if rumors of his involvement in child porn with Free Talk Live staff was true, he blocked me. He did vote for me in May as his Region Rep though, he knows goddamn well I am not a Nazi. He did defend Brad Spangler and FTR for their sex crimes which is weird. Speaking of pubic perception.

    https://misesuk.org/2015/01/23/brad-spangler-statement-by-thomas-knapp/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnSixDLrGlw

    My views on race do not require looking for secret meaning, I did a video a couple months ago called “Race and the Libertarian”.

    https://libertarianheathen.com/2017/07/16/global-dissident-voices-race-and-the-libertarian/

    I did a round table with a Conservative Republican and a Democrat state level NAACP leader in PA recently:

    https://libertarianheathen.com/2017/08/20/moab-radio-appearance-race-relations-round-table-discussion/

    The rest of it is out of context, outright lies, or obsessive digging for something. I dont have 1920’s nazi propaganda books. I do have google, where I saw an image of Harvey Weinstein Groping Emma Watson coupled with a pic of a top hat wearing industrialist abusing a woman, I thought it showed how the powerful take advantage of women throughout the ages, This fool saw nazis. Why? You can find anything if you look for it with enough bias.

    The reason the LPF EC has refused to entertain Stanton’s numerous attacks, is because everyone here knows he’s lying. They actually live and work here. Stanton’s short reign saw a refusal to affiliate new counties because he did not want to lose power. An At-Large Director called Stanton out for attempting to make himself Affiliate Chair without quorum, and subsequently this EC member was doxxed and called a Nazi. Stanton lost a county due to ineptitude, which we had to re-affiliate, and other counties asked to be moved to other regions because he is such an asshat.

    Meanwhile, here is what I have done in a 9 county region that was devoid of LPF activity 24 months ago.

    https://libertarianpartyofbradfordcountyfl.org/2017/10/09/the-rise-of-lpf-region-4/

    Listen to my arguments in the legislature:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JxQ2CnCbYE

    As far as this issue, Florida Politics did a sort of fair write up, read the comments, after this Stanton bots may flood, but you can see the general public reaction:

    http://floridapolitics.com/archives/247619-paul-stanton-resigns-libertarian-party-sparking-discussion-white-supremacists

    If you judge me by my deeds I pass muster. If you have a question about my beliefs, call me or email me. I’ve been unanimously elected twice by a diverse group of Libertarians, in the largest region of the LPF. I came here to get a body camera bill passed for a dead gay man, Jason Westcott. I pushed my first bill through in the Florida Senate in 2010. I am hated by the Alt-Right and the Commies like Stanton and Frankel. That means I am doing a great job. I am not quitting but advancing liberty.

    Hell, Cantwell wants to sue me for this viral video now, read the description:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAk6szYQ-bM

    Since we’re on a big email chain, Caryn Harlos, I want to talk to you about pro-life Libertarianism on my show.

    I am here in deep red bible belt building a Libertarian machine. Some of you are in blue areas. I bet you have a different tactic. You may have different opinions on something, that is fine with me. It wasn’t fine with Paul, so good riddance.

  57. Ryan Ramsey

    A note on Nationalism,, the move to create a global dictatorship must be opposed by all Libertarians. Nationalism is the belief in having a nation.

    https://libertarianheathen.com/2017/09/09/fundamentals-volume-1-murray-rothbard-nations-by-consent/

    Everyone who is not an Anarchist is a Nationalist. Whether Nationalism is toxic depends on what principles are used to found the nation. Myself and the AG support Constitutional Nationalism, a nation founded on the principles expressed in the Bill of Rights. Reality is that Anarchy in the US would not result in liberty, it would result by co-option into the Globalist New World Order, representing everything Libertarians oppose. While I understand Anarchism and believe the day of the sovereign individual will come, it wont be in my lifetime. We must first restore the Bill of Rights, autonomy of states, and local control. I did not join a philosophy club but a political party, this is the political reality.

    https://libertarianheathen.com/2017/04/17/on-libertarianism-tribalism-and-nationalism/

    It boils down to definitions, the definition used to define Nationalism expressed by Stanton and his ilk is Orwellin “Newspeak” and I do not accept it.

    https://libertarianheathen.com/2017/04/26/nationalism-and-newspeak-3/

    I think a good analogy to help you understand is the way we treat the word liberal. The negative reaction to the term “Nationalism” by many Libertarians is akin to the reaction by a Republican to the word “liberal”, invoking Marxist economics and other leftist beliefs. Meanwhile I consider myself a classical liberal, as were most of the founding fathers.

    Attacking me for “Nationalism” would display the same ignorance as a Republican who attacked me for being a “liberal”, and both are gross misrepresentations of what I believe, based on false pretense.

    My band does cover a Skrewdriver song. It is probably my favorite song in the world, and will be played at my funeral. Rock Against Communism is not racist, it is music opposing Marxism. I suspect quite a few in this party of being Marxist sympathizers, if they have a problem with RAC that is likely why.

    You can read more about RAC and ANTIFA here:

    https://libertarianheathen.com/2016/05/05/uncivil-rights-antifa-and-left-wing-political-violence-in-america/

    When I cover a Greatful Dead song I am not necessarily supporting everything they ever did or said, and the same with Skrewdriver. Here are the lyrics to the song, and a video of me performing it. I played it on the beach with Matt Welch from Reason last may, he seemed to dig it.

    Skrewdriver Suddenly Lyrics
    We live in changing times
    When certain thoughts are now a crime
    Power flows through an evil pen
    And freedom’s light in growing dim

    (chorus)
    One day if suddenly, I’m forced to take my leave
    Will you still carry on, with the things that we believe?
    One day if suddenly, they take my life away
    Will you still be fighting to win a bright new day?

    The people who’ve stood against us
    They seem to be above the law
    With the power to listen into private moments in our lives
    And the power to come kick down your door

    (chorus)

    Our strength has come from ideals many years’ old
    A strength that has survived within our blood
    A strength our foe has recognised, and sworn to drag it down
    He wants to drag our people through the mud

    (chorus) x2

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E79s3-A2upk

    This business of calling people Nazis is a joke at this point. This trash of an article is par for the course and indicative of what it is like to be a Libertarian in the toxic environment Stanton created in Florida, and Cultural Marxists are creating nationwide.

    Tom DiLorenzo gave a great talk at our last convention on the subject. If you are unfamiliar, Cultural Marxism was born in the 1920’s after attempts at making western countries Communist failed. The Frankfurt School was founded to determine how to bring the west under Communism. They found that it was our culture of individualism that prized personal achievement and rights of the individual, as well as our religious concept of an individual relationship with God.

    They determined that the culture must be attacked, and then we could be made to accept Socialism. They fled Germany in the 30’s and set up shop at Columbia University. Their graduates founded the political polling groups, headed the 3 big networks for decades, founded the big marketing firms of the 20th century, as well as radically changed the social sciences, and were the priniple force in changing America from a Republic into a Social Democracy.

    Here is a great documentary on the subject featuring Ron Paul:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIdBuK7_g3M

    Here is an article if you do not have time for the movie:

    https://www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_91-96/921_frankfurt.html

    This should clarify why Sarwark and Stanton are so dangerous for the party and liberty in general.

  58. Anon-Tipper

    If anyone reads through Ramsey’s nonsense.

    He cites the Schiller Institute at the end of his second post, the Schiller Institute is frequently criticized for antisemitism. The page he posted is about the Frankfurt School Conspiracy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School#Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory) which is frequently used by white-nationalists.

    Just post these links over and over again until someone in the LP/LNC wakes up to what Ramsey is:

    (American Guard listed on top of blog) https://libertarianheathen.com/ (archive: http://archive.is/FeKe8)

    https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2017/09/22/american-guard-ousts-augustus-invictus-citing-his-support-poisonous-ideas

    https://www.facebook.com/libertarianheathen/posts/2018534201713508

    https://imgur.com/a/ivcFt

    https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/brien-james

    https://www.adl.org/blog/behind-the-american-guard-hardcore-white-supremacists

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldiers_of_Odin

    http://www.theindychannel.com/longform/who-are-the-american-guard-patriotic-nationalists-or-skinheads-in-disguise

    https://godsandradicals.org/2017/03/18/heathen-know-nothings-the-american-guard/

    http://forward.com/fast-forward/368055/white-supremacists-and-skinheads-join-pro-trump-rally/

  59. paulie Post author

    Caryn Ann is starting to see the light. Again my apologies for misunderstanding of her earlier comments.
    Her latest to LNC:

    I just read a “response” by Ryan Ramsey and it has all the marks of an aggressive gas lighting campaign. After I read that letter, my “knower” knew that there are too many testimonies that ring true. There is a very manipulative game going on.

    There is definitely something very toxic going on in Florida. I am going to be speaking to my Region 1 Chairs about this as I make my quarterly conferences with them.

    -Caryn Ann

  60. paulie Post author

    My further reply:

    Link to my prior response to Ramsey was part of my last message. I will be responding to his latest BS when I get a chance.

    The following was left as a comment on IPR.

    If anyone reads through Ramsey’s nonsense.

    He cites the Schiller Institute at the end of his second post, the Schiller Institute is frequently criticized for antisemitism. The page he posted is about the Frankfurt School Conspiracy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School#Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory) which is frequently used by white-nationalists.

    Just post these links over and over again until someone in the LP/LNC wakes up to what Ramsey is:

    (American Guard listed on top of blog) https://libertarianheathen.com/ (archive: http://archive.is/FeKe8)

    https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2017/09/22/american-guard-ousts-augustus-invictus-citing-his-support-poisonous-ideas

    https://www.facebook.com/libertarianheathen/posts/2018534201713508

    https://imgur.com/a/ivcFt

    https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/brien-james

    https://www.adl.org/blog/behind-the-american-guard-hardcore-white-supremacists

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldiers_of_Odin

    http://www.theindychannel.com/longform/who-are-the-american-guard-patriotic-nationalists-or-skinheads-in-disguise

    https://godsandradicals.org/2017/03/18/heathen-know-nothings-the-american-guard/

    http://forward.com/fast-forward/368055/white-supremacists-and-skinheads-join-pro-trump-rally/

    And here is the latest LP statewide candidate in Florida to drop out just today thanks to threats of violence by Ramsey (the person from Bradford County he alludes to) just today. I highlighted that part below. Paul Frankel 205-534-1622 call any time day or night, I will call back if I can’t talk to you right then.

    All things must come to an End

    The Campaign must come to an End.
    Unfortunately, I must announce my withdrawal from active involvement in the Libertarian Party of Florida (LPF) and must suspend my campaign for US Senate. Over the past few months, I have been harassed by members of the LPF Executive Committee and prominent members of the LPF. Some have slandered me, making false accusations and disparaging my character & work ethic. Others have harassed members of my campaign. One prominent member of the LPF, from Miami, sexually harassed my campaign manager. Another particular member, from Bradford county, threatened physical harm against me and my family numerous times on Facebook. One prominent member has even intimidated people within the LPF membership to not financially support my campaign. Others have sent rude and obscene emails to members of my family. It is absolutely disturbing that this is happening within the Party of Principle. When I brought up my concerns to a few members of the Executive Committee, Paul Stanton was one of the very few to stand up to fight for what was right against this grossly inappropriate behavior.

    After the events of the Oct 22 Executive Committee meeting, I can no longer in good conscience continue my campaign or continue any activity that would benefit such a dysfunctional and corrupt organization. The so-called Party of Principle has embraced intimidation tactics and has completely abandoned Libertarian Principles. I can no longer help legitimize an organization that behaves in such a way.

    I apologize to all of my supporters who have helped my campaign. The remaining funds in the campaign account will be dispersed to a couple of Liberty-oriented political groups, so the money can still continue to help further the cause of Liberty.

  61. Pingback: Joe Wendt withdraws from US Senate campaign, Libertarian Party of Florida active membership | Independent Political Report

  62. Thomas L. Knapp

    Quoth Ryan Ramsey:

    “When [Nick Sarwark] came out in support of ANTIFA after the first Berkely riot”

    That never happened. Did any of the other things you claim happened actually happen?

  63. Chuck Moulton

    Tony from Long Island wrote:

    However, I stand by my #BlueWave2018 . . . . . just imagine how big that wave would be without the insane right-wing gerrymandering

    Please let me know if you want to make a wager based upon your belief. You seem very confident, so I will put up any amount of money I reasonably believe I can collect at 3:1 odds (e.g., my $10 to your $30) that Democrats will not retake a majority in the U.S. House of Representatives in the 2018 elections.

  64. Chuck Moulton

    As current chair of the JC, it would be inappropriate for me to comment on a possible disaffiliation.

    However, I will offer a pro tip to Ramsey:
    If you plan to make a case for yourself and against others, mentioning things that are demonstrably false (and well known to be false) hurts your credibility. Low information viewers will justifiably assume you are also lying about the things of which they have no firsthand knowledge.

  65. paulie Post author

    Further reactions on LNC list from Hayes, Wes Benedict and Larry Sharpe range from sweeping the problem under the rug to actively aiding and abetting the enemy. Caryn Ann Harlos sounds a lot more aware now. David Demarest and Starchild are also sounding more aware. I talked to Joshua Katz earlier today and he is fully aware. I don’t think any of them are prepared to consider disaffiliation yet, but I speed-read.

  66. paulie Post author

    Further up Caryn Ann mentioned steps to begin an investigation that would give the LNC the requisite information to consider disaffiliation. Does anyone here know what those steps are?

  67. dL

    Tom DiLorenzo gave a great talk at our last convention on the subject. If you are unfamiliar, Cultural Marxism was born in the 1920’s after attempts at making western countries Communist failed. The Frankfurt School was founded to determine how to bring the west under Communism. They found that it was our culture of individualism that prized personal achievement and rights of the individual, as well as our religious concept of an individual relationship with God.

    Similar to the original film classic, The Manchurian Candidate, where the rabid anti-communists were actually the communists, the ones today most loudly decrying “cultural marxists” are the ones who are actually the “cultural marxists.” In this case, the cultural marxists are advancing a critical construction predicated on the victimization of white identity.

    The one primarily responsible for bringing that nonsense into American libertarianism is Frankfurt school educated Hans Hoppe, a protege of Jurgen Habermas.

    [Hoppe’s “big tent” program is to synthesize Austrian economics w/ Critical theory]
    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/07/geurt-marco-de-wit/egalitarian-libertarians-dont-like-hoppe/

    Moreover Professor Hoppe was a doctoral student of the famous left-wing idol Jurgen Habermas and has attempted to integrate elements of the Critical Theory into the Austrian theory. Hoppe’s project is truly fascinating whatever one thinks about the Critical Theory or the radical Austrian school. Thus also many open-minded non-Austrian intellectuals are curious to discuss Hoppe’s insights.

    Of course, Hoppe’s “big tent” turns out to be the banner of ethnonationalist white supremacism. Hoppe’s own white supremacist bona fides certainly can be readily established w/ this essay:

    [(Race) Realistic Libertarianism]
    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/09/hans-hermann-hoppe/smack-down/

    In light of this, as a right-libertarian, I would of course first say to my children and students: always respect and do not invade others’ private property rights and recognize the State as an enemy and indeed the very anti-thesis of private property. But I would not leave it at that. I would not say (or silently imply) that once you have satisfied this requirement “anything goes.” Which is pretty much what ‘thin’ libertarians appear to be saying! I would not be a cultural relativist as most “thin” libertarians at least implicitly are. Instead, I would add (at a minimum): be and do whatever makes you happy, but always keep in mind that as long as you are an integral part of the worldwide division of labor, your existence and well-being depends decisively on the continued existence of others, and especially on the continued existence of white heterosexual male dominated societies, their patriarchic family structures, and their bourgeois or aristocratic lifestyle and conduct. Hence, even if you do not want to have any part in that, recognize that you are nonetheless a beneficiary of this standard “Western” model of social organization and hence, for your own sake, do nothing to undermine it but instead be supportive of it as something to be respected and protected.

    NOTE: This kind of drivel does best w/ sex deprived knuckleheads consumed w/ white identity victimhood, apparently an effective “culturally marxist” defense mechanism against god beating them up the head w/ the ugly stick.

  68. paulie Post author

    Everyone who is not an Anarchist is a Nationalist.

    That’s horseshit. Nationalist as it is being used in this discussion is more like euphemism for bigot.

  69. paulie Post author

    My band does cover a Skrewdriver song. It is probably my favorite song in the world, and will be played at my funeral.

    Thanks for making that clear. Skrewdriver was the leading avowed neo-nazi rock band that paved the way for all the rest.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skrewdriver

    The band released the single “White Power” in 1983 and their second album, Hail the New Dawn, in 1984. Although both Skrewdriver and the band Sham 69 had skinhead followings and racist fans early in their careers, Sham 69 denounced racism and performed at Rock Against Racism concerts.[10][11] Donaldson eventually aligned himself with neo-Nazism, saying: “I would describe myself as a British National Socialist, not a German one, and so don’t think I’m at odds with British patriots.”[12] The band became associated with the National Front and British National Party, raising funds for them (and affiliated organisations) through the White Noise record label. They released records on Rock-O-Rama, a label that became known for far-right sympathies. Skrewdriver was instrumental in setting up Blood & Honour, a neo-Nazi music promotion network.

    Rock Against Communism is not racist, it is music opposing Marxism.

    That’s a lie. I already quoted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Against_Communism earlier in this thread. Ramsey knows full well exactly what it is and is 100% in line with it.

    The Rock Against Communism movement originated in the United Kingdom in late 1978 with far right activists associated with the National Front (NF).[4] It was intended to counter the Rock Against Racism organisation.[4] The first RAC concert was in Leeds, England in 1978, featuring the Nazi punk bands The Dentists and The Ventz.[5] RAC held one concert in 1979 and another in spring 1983, which was headlined by Skrewdriver, a white power rock band led by Ian Stuart Donaldson. After that, RAC concerts were held more often. They were often headlined by Skrewdriver and featured other white power bands, such as Skullhead and No Remorse. In the mid-1980s, summer concerts were often held at the Suffolk home of Edgar Griffin, a Conservative Party activist[6] and father of Nick Griffin, an NF organiser who later became the national chair of the British National Party. By the late 1980s, the RAC name had given way to the White Noise Club (another NF-based group), and later Blood and Honour, which was set up by Donaldson when they fell out with the NF leadership.[4] As hardcore punk music became more popular in the 1990s and 2000s, many white power bands took on a more hardcore-influenced sound.

    Back to Ramsey:

    I suspect quite a few in this party of being Marxist sympathizers, if they have a problem with RAC that is likely why.

    No, I just don’t like nazis. I don’t like Marxists either. Both together murdered most of my extended family in the 1930s and 40s.

  70. Anthony Dlugos

    “This kind of drivel does best w/ sex deprived knuckleheads consumed w/ white identity victimhood, apparently an effective “culturally marxist” defense mechanism against god beating them up the head w/ the ugly stick.”

    It’s real bad when when your self-esteem is so shot that you think setting up a North American white ethonostate is a more realistic salve than just going into any ole’ club and working yourself through a few hood…well, you know.

  71. paulie Post author

    When I cover a Greatful Dead song I am not necessarily supporting everything they ever did or said, and the same with Skrewdriver.

    That is not a valid analogy. People who are not nazis don’t cover songs by white power nazi skinhead rock groups. And even if they did they would not fly RAC flags when doing so. Ramsey is a nazi and he is lying.

  72. paulie Post author

    When certain thoughts are now a crime

    He means holocaust denial, support for nazi Germany and killing all the Jews.

    Will you still be fighting to win a bright new day?

    By bright new day Ian Stuart means fourth Reich.

    A strength that has survived within our blood

    He means white ancestry.

    Congratulations on getting Matt Welch to play this drivel with you if you are not once again lying.

  73. paulie Post author

    This business of calling people Nazis is a joke at this point.

    On the contrary, calling nazis exactly what they are is just what the doctor ordered.

  74. paulie Post author

    My Response to Commie Paul and his nonsense:

    I think he means Stanton, and again he has never produced any evidence that I know of that Stanton is any kind of communist, socialist or anything like that. If he means me, that is also a lie. I am a refugee from Marxism, my family members have been killed by Marxists, and I am not one myself. I score easily in the libertarian zone on every test I have ever seen and have been a LP and movement activist for a quarter of a century.

    Ladies and Gentleman,
    As far as what I have read, consider the source.
    Paul Frankel is a fraud and criminal,

    I’m in no way a “fraud” and as for criminal, it’s no secret that I have committed crimes in the past but I am not doing anything of that nature now, or for that matter in this decade, unless it’s the “three felonies a day” that we all commit.

    and is upset that I documented his crimes

    You did not document my crimes, you put up a bunch of lies which I answered at some length.

    Ryan Ramsey’s article is in fact full of attacks, slander and lies. Looking at just the headline alone: I am not editor in chief at IPR and in fact there is no such position. I am not a terrorist, and that is a slanderous claim. Moving beyond the headline I address numerous inaccurate statements, slanders, libel and downright lies in Ramsey’s article in a series of comments starting at http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/libertarians-united-against-fascism-write-open-letter-to-lnc-starchild-responds/#comment-1581189 and continuing over a couple of dozen comments.

    after a hit piece he wrote on me in the Republican owned rag IPR,

    IPR is not Republican owned and I did not write the piece Ramsey is referring to which is http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/libertarians-united-against-fascism-to-the-cowardly-collaborators-of-the-libertarian-party-of-florida-and-a-call-to-action-against-them/ The source of the article is clearly identified. I have posted thousands of articles at IPR, many of them being views and sources I do not agree with, and Ramsey is well aware I did not write what he calls a “hit piece” – his characterization, not mine.

    which exists solely to sabotage the Libertarian Party,

    Total nonsense. IPR has published almost 18,000 articles in nearly 10 years. They have been about all sorts of alt parties and independents from a wide variety of perspectives – positive, negative, mainstream and establishment. Many have been press releases and fundraising letters directly from the parties, candidates and campaigns. It’s utterly ridiculous to claim that IPR exists solely to sabotage the LP. Most of our writers are in the LP themselves. Probably at least have of our nearly 18,000 are not even about the LP at all.

    and has been the source for every negative article ever written about the LPF, from John Wayne Smith, to Alexander George, Franklin Perez, Augustus, and myself.

    We publish the news and perspectives both good and bad about alt parties and independents.

    Redich (sic) was/is on the Broward Repubican EC, now suppoosedly a Democrat, but a rival in any case.

    He is a libertarian activist who frequently crosses party lines and has come by far the closest in the party’s 45+ year history, as LP candidate for Governor of NY in 2010, to getting us ballot retention in one of the nation’s most populous states.

    He threatened me with calling law enforcement

    You lying sack of shit, you are the one who claimed you called law enfarcement on me. I have never in my life on this planet called law enfarcement on you or threatened anyone ever with such. Unlike you, asshole.

    when I asked him to take down the ANTIFA terrorist threats that doxxed my pregnant wife and threatened to “burn down our convention” from his website.

    We don’t do that here. The record is the record for good or bad and you were not doxxed, it was all public information. You forgot that the “threat” was to metaphorically “burn down” your convention peacefully so it was not anything like a terrorist threat, unlike those coming from you.

    Like most of what I have read here it is projecting their misconduct onto me.

    Actually the opposite is the case. As with his drivel about threatening to call law enfarcement Ramsey is the one who is projecting, repeatedly.

    Here is an article on who Paul Frankel really is, and some of his shenanigans with Paul.

    You mean the same bullshit lies I addressed earlier.

    If anyone is an embarrassment to the LNC it is a guy convicted of election related felonies who still has not paid the fines for the crimes,

    I followed all instructions from my attorney. Why are we discussing a 16 year old incident anyway?

    and an open member of the Marxist terror organization collectively known as ANTIFA.

    You are lying again. I am not now and never have been a member of any marxist or terrorist organization. I did say I am antifa(scist) in the sense that I oppose and confront fascists. I also said I do not approve of any non-defensive violence by anyone.

    He kidnapped a rivals dog, tortured it, and killed it.

    That is a flat out lie no matter how many times you repeat it. It simply never happened.

    I can never be that evil.

    Yes you can, and you are.

    Before you look at who represents Florida you should look into your own glass house and ask why he is using official LNC email on his non-party website to undermine the LPF.

    Because it forwards to my regular email and I get sick of explaining for the millionth time that it’s two Ls in travellingcircus for my regular email. I am not claiming the LNC approves of everything I say in any way, shape or form.

  75. paulie Post author

    When the LPF attacked him it was BS. They kept it up so long Augustus said..”screw it, might as well hang out with nazis since they always call me that”.

    Give me a break. He was hanging out with nazis before, during and after. Who else would a nazi like him hang out with?

  76. paulie Post author

    The American Guard ejected him by unanimous vote of the state presidents in less than 48 hours post Charlottesville.

    You removed him because you are image-focused, not because you disagree with him.

  77. paulie Post author

    A note on Knapp, I point blank asked him if rumors of his involvement in child porn with Free Talk Live staff was true, he blocked me.

    I would have blocked you for shit like that too.

    I did a round table with a Conservative Republican and a Democrat state level NAACP leader in PA recently:

    Was this right around the time when one of your “Mad American Network” cohort was seen in Harrisburg with Invictus doing the Sieg Heil?

  78. paulie Post author

    The rest of it is out of context, outright lies, or obsessive digging for something. I dont have 1920’s nazi propaganda books. I do have google, where I saw an image of Harvey Weinstein Groping Emma Watson coupled with a pic of a top hat wearing industrialist abusing a woman, I thought it showed how the powerful take advantage of women throughout the ages, This fool saw nazis. Why? You can find anything if you look for it with enough bias.

    Yeah, you didn’t recognize the antisemitic caricature of a hook nosed Jew for what it was? Gimme a break yet again. It was just a picture of an industrialist, huh? How about bullshit? Because even you admit you are a “former” white nationalist, and an active one, so you would not recognize anti-Jewish cartoons…yeah, right.

  79. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Ryan Rams-it wrote: “Since we’re on a big email chain, Caryn Harlos, I want to talk to you about pro-life Libertarianism on my show.”

    Don’t go! He’ll try to get you agree that white people are going extinct and we need to outlaw abortion (and enforce particularly on whites) to make we have more white babies!

    Everyone else made excellent points re: Ryan “Let’s not go extinct white people” Ramsey. If you are going to do a good expose, you need actual links, quotes, imagery, testimonials, etc. Not a list of wacky sounding accusations.

  80. paulie Post author

    When I reposted that article here (note I did not write it and don’t know who did) Ramsey had this exchange where he threatened both myself and IPR, and offered to unpublish his lies about me and us if we unpublished http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/libertarians-united-against-fascism-to-the-cowardly-collaborators-of-the-libertarian-party-of-florida-and-a-call-to-action-against-them/:

    On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 8:47 AM, paulie wrote:
    Email exchange from yesterday. Ramsey demands articles be taken down, threatens to sic law enforcement on me.

    p; I already addressed all his nonsense in the IPR comments. He’s just repeating the same BS and embellishing it more and now getting FBI involved? When all I did was report what some other places were saying without even saying whether I agree or not. He seems to not grasp I did not write the articles. No one much less me threatened physical violence, in fact both myself and the original source specifically renounced it. I’m not a “member” of anything antifa and certainly not a terrorist. Brandi was actually completely reasonable in IPR comments a few days ago (same thread I linked earlier) but I still have to wonder if they quit racial politics why still fly the RAC banner? As for making slanderous claims that would be him, such as the slanderous claim that I killed a dog and the slanderous claim that I am a terrorist.

    On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:27 PM, Warren Redlich wrote:
    fyi

    I asked him to send me excerpts of the threats and he didn’t. No surprise.

    W
    ———- Forwarded message ———-
    From: Bradford County Libertarian Party of Florida
    Date: Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:48 PM
    Subject: Re: Articles threatening my family and the convention
    To: wredlich@gmail.com

    He was convicted of 2 of the felonies and is in collections for the fines as of 2011, more arrests as a fugitive since. Furthermore he admits to being a member of ANTIFA.

    I have been punching back, but I wanted to reach out. If you take them down I can dispense with the idea this is a Republican attempt to subvert the LLPF, which I hope you do not take too much offense to as it is plausible, and I do not know you.

    I am basically confronted with the idea that your paper is saying crazy things and giving out my persona address and my pregnant Treasurers personal info (Brandi) and making incredible and slanderous claims, as well as calling to prevent us from conducting business at our annual convention.

    Reality is I left the far right a decade ago and risked my life to teach hundreds of white nationalists a new way of life and started a liberty group open to all races and sex orientations and denounced racial politics, this is a serious attack.

    I fired back, and I am sitting here deciding what to do. The FDLE electronic crime unit is on the case, since Franke is in Alabama I expect to meet early next week with the FBI, the articles violate multiple State and Federal statutes in my opinion.

    That is their call, but I figured why not give you a chance to remove them and I can remove articles like the one here rather than have a war to discredit each other.

    I may be wrong, you may not know Frankel is part of the left wing terror group ANTIFA (admissions attached), many also do not know about them, and I am willing to lend that benefit of the doubt.

    https://libertarianheathen.com/2016/05/05/uncivil-rights-antifa-and-left-wing-political-violence-in-america/

    Here was my response to Frankels personal attacks April 8.

    https://libertarianheathen.com/2017/04/11/meet-paul-frankel-editor-in-chief-at-ipr-antifa-terrorist-and-former-fugitivelnc-regional-alternate/

    I can choose to go nucear, or reach out to you to handle it, and I am choosing the latter in hopes you are reasonable and a decent human being. Call if you like, numbers in my signature.

    Exist to resist,

    Ryan Ramsey
    Region 4 Representative and Bradford County Chairman
    Libertarian Party of Florida
    bradfordcountylpf@gmail.com
    (904) 813-9092

    On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:35 PM, Bradford County Libertarian Party of Florida wrote:
    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/libertarians-united-against-fascism-to-the-cowardly-collaborators-of-the-libertarian-party-of-florida-and-a-call-to-action-against-them/

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/free-speech-and-no-platform-a-brief-libertarian-case-for-silencing-fascists/

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/libertarians-united-against-fascism-write-open-letter-to-lnc-starchild-responds/

    Exist to resist,

    Ryan Ramsey
    Region 4 Representative and Bradford County Chairman
    Libertarian Party of Florida
    bradfordcountylpf@gmail.com
    (904) 813-9092

  81. paulie Post author

    Florida Libertarians Against Nazis
    October 23 at 10:24pm ·

    Per Ryan Ramsey, him and the American Guard are not a neo-nazi group because they have Hispanic and Black members. Gee, I guess they’ve never read this book.

  82. paulie Post author

    Florida Libertarians Against Nazis
    July 19 ·
    What is the Miralles Record:
    Openly embracing and appointing know White Nationalists to positions of authority in the LPF
    His Chief of staff, Pierre Crevaux, admits to working with known White Nationalist Ryan Ramsey to recruit fellow White Nationalists to organize LPF county affiliates and run as LPF candidates.
    Marcos refuses to remove or deal with the vocal racist Frank Caprio, who represents the LPF on the LNC Platform Committee.
    THROW THE BUM OUT!!!

  83. paulie Post author

    FLAN Spotlight on Greg Peele:
    Though Mr Peele seems like an amicable member of the LPF Executive Committee, his record is disturbing.
    1) Voted for the appointment of White Nationalists Ryan Ramsey & James Chipman to the Legislative Review Committee
    2) Rumored to have leaked to Ryan Ramsey screenshots of an LPF Ethics & Conduct in Mr Ramsey’s behavior
    3) Has called Augustus Sol Invictus a “productive member of the Orange county affiliate.”
    Although he maybe an amicable fellow, Mr Peele has worked to legitimize the White Nationalist infiltration of the Libertarian Party of Florida. Throw the bum out.

    and

    FLAN spotlight on Derek Ryan:
    Derek vocally supported Marcos Miralles as LPF Chair, and has been a staunch defender of the Miralles administration. Miralles has proceeded to legitimize White Nationalism in the LPF and has appointed know White Nationalists to positions of authority in the LPF.
    Derek nominated Frank Caprio to be the LPF Rep on the LNC Platform Committee. Frank Caprio has made extremely racist statements.
    Derek is the Chair of the Libertarian Party in Orange County, and has worked hard to legitimize known Fascist Augustus Sol Invictus as a legitimate Libertarian leader.
    Don’t be like Derek. Vote Derek out.

    and

    FLAN spotlight on James Chipman:
    Marcos Miralles has announced his intention to appoint James Chipman as Legislative Review Committee Chair. Unfortunately, this is yet another example of the LPF Chair’s lack of judgment and willingness to appease a racist Alt-right agenda.
    Mr Chipman ran for LPF Vice Chair as the Miralles supported candidate until Libertarians United Against Fascism (http://archive.is/GHQ8G) exposed his Alt-right connections and published the racist content on his Facebook page and Twitter account.
    This is again another example of Marcos Miralles appeasing the white nationalists and alt-right that supported his campaign. Throw the bum out.

    and

    Florida’s At-Large Director 3, Greg Peele associating with known white nationalist Cliff Lewis.
    Greg, thinks it is a great idea to have these types of people in our movement.
    Vote the bum out!

    Lewis was N Florida chapter leader of the American Frontback when they were arrested for domestic terrorism.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Front

  84. Luke

    I guess I shouldn’t be, but part of me can’t help but still be shocked that filth like Invictus and Ramsey even get the time of day in the LP. Thankfully Invictus left but that still leaves us with a larger problem.

  85. Luke

    I’m especially disappointed in Wes Benedict’s comments on the LNC list yesterday. Shameful to say the least.

  86. Pingback: Paul Stanton makes motion to remove Ryan Ramsey from Florida LP exec comm, then resigns himself – A.T.P.R.

  87. Thomas L. Knapp

    “Marcos refuses to remove or deal with the vocal racist Frank Caprio, who represents the LPF on the LNC Platform Committee.”

    Marcos doesn’t have the power to remove Caprio.

    There was a motion on the executive committee to remove Caprio. I spoke against it because I don’t believe the executive committee has that power either, at least legitimately. Caprio was nominated at, and elected by the delegates to, the state convention. They either knew, or should have known, what he stood for before voting for him. It’s not the executive committee’s job to overturn the delegates just because they don’t like what the guy the delegates elected stands for. Unless Caprio is credibly accused of some overt act AFTER his election that violates party rules, removing him would essentially be the EC rebelling against the party.

  88. paulie Post author

    TLK,

    Thanks for the correction. You said on the other thread

    However, to the extent that Creveaux represents/speaks for the chair as his de facto personal chief of staff, that screen shot is a declaration of war on LPF. The three people he names as further targets can presumably survive, both personally and politically, without LPF. Whether or not LPF can survive without them, or at least people like them, is a very different question.

    If Creveaux, and by extension Mr. Miralles, want to wage war on LPF, I intend to make sure that they feel the full truthfulness of Sherman’s description. They’re going to find out that, for them at least, it is all hell.

    When you say if, do you mean you still have doubts about that?

  89. Thomas L. Knapp

    —–
    Lyin’ Ryan Ramsey: “A note on Knapp, I point blank asked him if rumors of his involvement in child porn with Free Talk Live staff was true, he blocked me.”

    Paulie: “I would have blocked you for shit like that too.”
    —–

    As usual, Lyin’ Ryan is lying.

    First of all, the “rumors” of my involvement in child porn with Free Talk Live staff were only uttered by, and probably only listened to by, Lyin’ Ryan himself.

    Secondly, I did not block him over it. I simply pointed out that Free Talk Live staff have never been accused, either by law enforcement or credibly by anyone else, of involvement in child porn. I blocked him recently because he wanted to waste my bandwidth on his bullshit pretense that The American Guard isn’t what it is (the Vinlanders Social Club re-branded).

    Thirdly, it was never any secret — in fact, I wrote a column on it — that I took Free Talk Live’s side in the events that Lyin’ Ryan was alluding to, which consisted of a federal raid on the Free Talk Live house/studio in which computers were seized on the allegation that someone, at some point, had connected to a child porn site (operated by the FBI) from their open wi-fi network. None of the hosts/staff of Free Talk Live have ever been accused by law enforcement, or credibly accused by anyone else, of producing or possessing child porn.

    Poor Lyin’ Ryan just can’t seem to stop lyin’.

  90. paulie Post author

    make me think there is still a chance to pull us back from the brink.

    Knapp answered at http://knappster.blogspot.ca/2017/10/thanks-for-asking-102617.html

    After the as-usual defeat of one of his frequent motions pursuant to helping the Libertarian Party of Florida solve its ethno-nationalist takeove problem, Paul Stanton became the fourth of four (ever) statewide LPF candidates to leave the party.

    He was followed by another would-be statewide candidate, Joe Wendt.

    At IPR, in comments to the above link, there’s a screenshot of Pierre-Alexandre Creveaux indicating an intent to chase the libertarian wing of the Libertarian Party of Florida out of the party.

    Creveaux is not a party official, but is seemingly the de facto personal “chief of staff” to LPF chair Marcos Miralles.

    So, in answer:

    When I say “if,” the question involved is whether or not Creveaux speaks for the chair on that particular matter.

    Although it would be easy to infer intent/agenda from the chair’s actions, it would not necessarily be accurate to do so. The chair may be doing the things he’s doing for reasons other than Creveaux’s stated reasons.

    And I do need to do a little more looking into what, precisely, the chair is doing. I am not on the executive committee, and in the normal course of things do not listen to their marathon teleconference meetings. In fact, Paul’s motion on Ramsey, and subsequent resignation, caught me by surprise. I’m just not the 24/7 internal party activist I used to be. So I’m doing some asking around and other informal research.

  91. paulie Post author

    Thanks! That was closer than I imagined. This was the first time I saw actual vote results, I just inferred them from the resignation.

  92. Luke

    Hopefully Paul Stanton will remain active in the movement even though he has quit the party.

  93. paulie Post author

    Apologies to those who have seen me put this in 2 other threads today but I want it available to those who look up the particular article(s) later.

  94. Cody Quirk

    Yeah, at this point the alt-right is a WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY bigger threat to the LP then any ANTIFA or hardcore left-wing group.
    The drama going down in Florida is very disturbing and has killed any sympathy I had for the alt-right camp in the LP.

  95. Luke

    paulie Post author
    October 27, 2017 at 22:25

    I’m putting that book on my Christmas list. Maybe we can send Andy a copy too?

  96. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Phil G wrote: Libertarians have abandon the core traditional libertarian values like Thoreau in favor of an Alt-Right authoritarian ideology.

    No, there just a too many who’ve abandoned the habit of standing up to authority, including the minor – and major – assholes who try to infiltrate libertarian organizations. I’ve been doing it for 35 odd years myself. I should write a book. I’ve got half of it on my website carolmoore.net already. 😉

    Well, we’re going to have to have a strategy for dealing with LP FL in 2018. A real libertarian strategy, no left or right qualifiers need apply!!

  97. Luke

    What gives Phil Garris the authority to speak for all libertarians or make overcategorizing and untrue pronouncements about all libertarians?

  98. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    To go into a bit more detail above. Whether or not Ramsey and his asshole minions stage some stupid protest or walk about with guns in open carry intimidation, the LP FL delegates will be clearly labeled and/or available at their LP FL delegate table.

    So a lot of us will have to talk some courage and/or libertarianism into these people so they come down on the right side of history.

    Haven’t read the news articles about Stanton yet above, but hopefully that will have some effect. Hmmm haven’t checked out LP FL FB page since he left either…

  99. paulie Post author

    What gives Phil Garris the authority to speak for all libertarians or make overcategorizing and untrue pronouncements about all libertarians?

    Nothing. He just pulled out of a dark place where the sun does not shine.

  100. Thomas L. Knapp

    “the LP FL delegates will be clearly labeled and/or available at their LP FL delegate table.”

    If they’re seated, they will be.

    I think I’ll just stop right there.

  101. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    cm wrote: “the LP FL delegates will be clearly labeled ”

    Don’t Convention badges mention states? Or should we just look for floral shirts. ha ha ha 🙂

    Or brown ones ;-(

  102. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    At this link I made the following comment and included a meme I made of an anti-Civilian comment by General/Chief of Staff John Kelly:

    https://www.facebook.com/LPFlorida/posts/10155151670427894
    “What’s worst is you have a lot of veterans coming in who have gotten the idea US interventionism a bad idea, but a few of them still into the follow the “alpha male” philosophy and kick the butt of any lowly civilian who doesn’t follow our orders.”

    I’m afraid a lot of these younger generation types are far more into the military than those of us who hated what US did from Vietnam to Gulf War 1991. And the Ryan Ramsey’s of the world “pull rank” even in the party and we poor sorry civilians (per Kelly) are just supposed to keep our mouths shut.

    Even the non-alt-right pro-veterans types can fall for it. Happily, not all as we saw during the Vohra anti-military comments brouhaha earlier this year. But the LNC sure passed a stupid and largely irrelevant resolution promoted by Ramsey and others supporting the troops or veterans or whatever it was.

  103. paulie Post author

    Don’t Convention badges mention states?

    Yes, just not always the ones people are actually from. And for that matter, the convention can refuse to seat entire delegations.

  104. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Considering FL close to NOLA, and the Ramsey et al mucho macho motivation, I have a feeling they’ll fill up the delegation, but some may not be Floridians.

  105. paulie Post author

    Maybe we can pass a special convention rule requiring all delegates to swear under penalty of perjury “I am not now and have never been a nationalist” 🙂

  106. Thomas L. Knapp

    If they’re national party members or members of most state parties, they’ve already certified that they’re not nationalists (nationalism is incompatible with the membership pledge).

  107. paulie Post author

    There are a lot of definitions of the membership pledge. Some people think it means they won’t start a revolution against the government, some think it’s a meaningless incantation. Perhaps something more specific just for the occasion?

  108. Thomas L. Knapp

    I guess I should have clearly tagged the comment “sarcasm.”

    A pledge that one is not a nationalist would be just as highly interpretable and just as unenforceable as the existing LP membership pledge. The ethno-nationalists had to either completely misunderstand, or else lie on, the latter to get into the LP; why wouldn’t they do the same (lie, and if caught pretend they didn’t understand) on the former to get into the convention?

  109. Anthony Dlugos

    “A pledge that one is not a nationalist would be just as highly interpretable and just as unenforceable as the existing LP membership pledge. The ethno-nationalists had to either completely misunderstand, or else lie on, the latter to get into the LP; why wouldn’t they do the same (lie, and if caught pretend they didn’t understand) on the former to get into the convention?”

    Damn straight.

    Conclusion: The definition of what a Libertarian…not libertarian…is, what the party’s mission is, any messaging the LP puts out, from the platform to policy positions to candidates, needs to be as broad and moderate as possible, conceding the fact that sometimes said message won’t be “pure.” This is because the only way to truly defeat the white nationalists or deter their incursion is to make them a minority in the party. As long as the party is small, they’ll mangle what a Libertarian is, either purposely or merely as a by-product of seeing short-cut access to political power.

    The philosophy will take a hit in this process, but the benefits outweigh the expenses, not for the least of which reasons is that the party should not speak for the philosophy. So the LP CAN be a party that would decline to take up a fight for the christian baker who refuses to bake a cake for a gay marriage, understanding that along with a coterie of radicals/purists, we’ll lose a whole lot more bigots/racists/white nationalist, and others who merely want to use the party to advocate for their particular hatreds, even if that hatred is not “hate-the-gays.” I’ll take that deal any day.

  110. Anon-Tipper

    Good comment above. The LP, needs to scream open borders as much as possible.

    I think Sarwark making it clear that “state’s rights” wasn’t something the LP endorsed (on the Lions of Liberty podcast) and telling Jason Stapleton that maybe the party wasn’t for people like him is what the party needs to continue to do. Dropping the paleos is exactly what needs to happen, they’re against the core values of the rest of the libertarian community and their shenanigans are being used to paint libertarians as a whole as awful, racists, xenophobes.

  111. Anthony Dlugos

    “I think Sarwark making it clear that “state’s rights” wasn’t something the LP endorse…and telling Jason Stapleton that maybe the party wasn’t for people like him is what the party needs to continue to do. ”

    I personally advocate for some sort of public censure at the 2018 Convention for Ron Paul, Tom Woods, the Mises Institute, and the whole Rothbard paleo strategy. The public censure should be straight up left-leaning virtue signaling until that whole group chokes on it.

  112. Anon-Tipper

    Exactly. Hey the paleos think open borders will bring in hordes of anti-liberty people, turn it back on them, the LP needs to close its borders to anti-liberty paleos.

  113. Tony From Long Island

    Be careful, you might incur the xenophobic wrath of Andy with one of his mile-long screeds! 🙂

  114. paulie Post author

    I guess I should have clearly tagged the comment “sarcasm.”

    A pledge that one is not a nationalist would be just as highly interpretable and just as unenforceable as the existing LP membership pledge. The ethno-nationalists had to either completely misunderstand, or else lie on, the latter to get into the LP; why wouldn’t they do the same (lie, and if caught pretend they didn’t understand) on the former to get into the convention?

    I should have marked my comment as sarcasm as well. I did put a smiley on it, at least at first. It’s very much open to interpretation when force is retaliatory and when it isn’t when it comes to these guys. After all, Ramsey is on the record that anyone who has worn this T-shirt has issued a threat of violence and that anyone is justified in using “retaliatory” violence against such a person at any time:

    On the other hand Ramsey is also on record that all libertarians who are not anarchists are nationalists, and that certainly he is a nationalist, so that would be a bit harder to deny. But, I do recognize they will lie about anything at any time, even if they get caught with their hands in the cookie jar.

  115. paulie Post author

    The LP, needs to scream open borders as much as possible.

    I think Sarwark making it clear that “state’s rights” wasn’t something the LP endorsed (on the Lions of Liberty podcast) and telling Jason Stapleton that maybe the party wasn’t for people like him is what the party needs to continue to do. Dropping the paleos is exactly what needs to happen, they’re against the core values of the rest of the libertarian community and their shenanigans are being used to paint libertarians as a whole as awful, racists, xenophobes.

    Exactly!

  116. paulie Post author

    Hey the paleos think open borders will bring in hordes of anti-liberty people, turn it back on them, the LP needs to close its borders to anti-liberty paleos.

    LOL, exactly. Turnabout is fair play.

  117. Anon-Tipper

    It’s amazing, an official facebook page is saying this and he still doesn’t think there’s a problem.

  118. paulie Post author

    Why yes, that is in fact not just Ramsey in there but also Invictus, wearing a T-shit from Christopher Cantwell’s show – two of the main Charlottesville fascist organizers.

  119. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Paulie wrote: On the other hand Ramsey is also on record that all libertarians who are not anarchists are nationalists, and that certainly he is a nationalist, so that would be a bit harder to deny. But, I do recognize they will lie about anything at any time, even if they get caught with their hands in the cookie jar.

    So does Ramsey advocate using military force against nonviolent secessionists? I haven’t met a real libertarian yet who would call for it. They might think that the national state WILL survive, even if a few anarchists or groups secede. And they might prefer that. But they don’t go around promoting stopping secession.

    As for ethno-nationalism, there isn’t a problem with cultural groups wanting to have self-determining communities, though if they’re into a lot of racial/ethnic superiority, most others don’t want to hear about it. And if they are into grabbing other’s property and/or driving them out to have ethnically pure areas, obviously that is a violation of rights.

    So in both cases it is important not to make these narrow, unsophisticated distinctions and then try to draw battle lines about them!! I’m happy to see that most of the people in the Mises caucuses are pretty sophisticated. Not many of them like Hoppe’s excesses but aren’t going to damn Woods, Paul, etc., though they may be too uncritical.

    I obviously will nitpick anything any one says.

    For example, I agree that that t=shirt does show a violent image of someone attacking someone else for their (dubious) believes. However, of course, I don’t think it justifies attack anyone who wears it.

  120. paulie Post author

    The t-shirt can be interpreted in different ways. It can be considered a literal physical attack or a metaphorical attack. It can be an attack on white supremacist individuals or just on the idea itself. It is so far from a literal physical threat that would justify retaliatory or preventive force that anyone who thinks it does is clearly very unclear on the subject. That would be someone like Ramsey.

  121. dL

    Conclusion: The definition of what a Libertarian…not libertarian…is, what the party’s mission is, any messaging the LP puts out, from the platform to policy positions to candidates, needs to be as broad and moderate as possible, conceding the fact that sometimes said message won’t be “pure.” This is because the only way to truly defeat the white nationalists or deter their incursion is to make them a minority in the party. As long as the party is small, they’ll mangle what a Libertarian is, either purposely or merely as a by-product of seeing short-cut access to political power.

    The philosophy will take a hit in this process, but the benefits outweigh the expenses, not for the least of which reasons is that the party should not speak for the philosophy. So the LP CAN be a party that would decline to take up a fight for the christian baker who refuses to bake a cake for a gay marriage, understanding that along with a coterie of radicals/purists, we’ll lose a whole lot more bigots/racists/white nationalist, and others who merely want to use the party to advocate for their particular hatreds, even if that hatred is not “hate-the-gays.” I’ll take that deal any day.

    Better conclusion: If you take it in the mouth from the moderate republicans, you will eventually take it up the ass from the alt-right.

    Utterly farcical to think you will block ethno-nationalism, which, of course, is symptomatic of a complete abandonment of moral or ethical principles, by likewise abandoning principle. Dlugos’ delusion of “strength in numbers” is unequivocally and empirically refuted by the current GOP, which–for all and intents and purposes–is now a party of white identity politics. “Strength in numbers” didn’t do jack shit to prevent that. The LP will simply become a receptacle for the shit that is too much diarrhea to stick even to the GOP’s gutter.

  122. dL

    Not many of them like Hoppe’s excesses

    There is no libertarian core w/ Hoppe. The core itself is rotten. This is not a question of excesses…this is a hijacking.

  123. robert capozzi

    dL: the current GOP, which–for all and intents and purposes–is now a party of white identity politics.

    me: Seems a bit overstated, but I kind of see why you conclude that. That SHOULD be an opportunity for the LP. There are probably large swathes of R voters who are repulsed by the Haterade being doled out by the GOP. A significant subset of them are L leaning, but they are NOT NAPsters. Therefore, if they look closely at the LP, they will likely continue to be unwilling to make the leap to the LP. They are, after all, unwelcome if they don’t drink the 89 Founders NAPster Kool-Aid.

  124. George Phillies

    “DL: the current GOP, which–for all and intents and purposes–is now a party of white identity politics.
    me: Seems a bit overstated,”

    Seems wildly overstated, up there with ‘the Democratic Party is the party of black identity politics’.

    There is a recent Pew study on this. There is a recent study that I described here months ago, on which I have now misplaced the link (does someone have it?) using a modified Nolan chart, essentially showing the d and R parties have the liberal and conservative quadrants, the Republicans have a bit more of the populist quadrant, and our quadrant is quite empty.

  125. dL

    Seems wildly overstated, up there with ‘the Democratic Party is the party of black identity politics’.

    Wildly overstated, my ass. Your objection, based on some poll you can’t find, is belied by the fact of Trump’ s high approval popularity(~ 90%) with the Republican base by a number of opinion polls that I can easily find. While there may be a few literary outposts like the American Conservative that rail against Trumpist white identity politics, there are no deep cultural-political divisions within the GOP.

  126. dL

    That SHOULD be an opportunity for the LP. There are probably large swathes of R voters who are repulsed by the Haterade being doled out by the GOP.

    No, there is no large swathe of R voters out there posing as a carrot to tempt the LP to bend over for a Mitt Romney facial. There is, however, a large of swathe of undocumented people living in the United States that could perhaps could use a principled advocate.

  127. robert capozzi

    do, not nearly enough granular data there. Generic approval could mean many things. Relief Hillary didn’t win is probably a big part of this rather bracing result.

  128. Thane Eichenauer

    Oh noes Augustus Sol Invictus wearing a Christopher Cantwell enterprises Radical Agenda t-shirt while presumably talking!

    What next says the hip modern day reincarnation of Dr. Peter Venkman?

    Dr. Peter Venkman: This city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.
    Mayor: What do you mean, “biblical”?
    Dr Ray Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor, real wrath-of-God type stuff.
    Dr. Peter Venkman: Exactly.
    Dr Ray Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies. Rivers and seas boiling.
    Dr. Egon Spengler: Forty years of darkness. Earthquakes, volcanoes…
    Winston Zeddemore: The dead rising from the grave.
    Dr. Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together – mass hysteria.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3ZOKDmorj0

    Hasn’t anybody told Mr. Invictus that Halloween is over? Spooky costumes are no longer required.

  129. Thomas L. Knapp

    “Oh noes Augustus Sol Invictus wearing a Christopher Cantwell enterprises Radical Agenda t-shirt while presumably talking!”

    I agree. Those poor fellows who wore SS uniforms to the Nuremberg rallies probably weren’t Nazis or anything. We shouldn’t make assumptions.

  130. paulie Post author

    Thane,

    It’s not a costume, unfortunately. Ramsey, Invictus and Cantwell are all of the same toxic ideology – I find your misplaced description of libertarian socialism as “like a radioactive blood sucking cockroach” to be entirely apt for this bunch, if not understated, as is your prescription for what should be done with the cockroach-like ideology. It’s the libertarian part of their ideology which is the false costume, one which Invictus has already shed but unfortunately Ramsey has not yet. He may need a bit of help with that.

  131. paulie Post author

    Better conclusion: If you take it in the mouth from the moderate republicans, you will eventually take it up the ass from the alt-right.

    Bingo!

  132. Thane Eichenauer

    I know Thomas, the parallels are all too frightening. I am certain that Cantwell is really hoping to be incarcerated for a few more months so that he has time to complete his new book, aptly titled “My Struggle, a memoir written while imprisoned in an American gulag” (published by Dangerous Books). Upon release he will no doubt retain Milo Yiannopoulos as his (closet) wardrobe consultant. He will begin holding secret teleconferences with the diabolic duo US Senator Bernie Sanders and US Rep Kyrsten Sinema both of whom I have been reliably informed have never met a government program they didn’t like.

    Dave Rubin of the Rubin Report will not doubt be hoodwinked to interview him to prove how liberal he is. Augustus Sol Invictus meanwhile will be scouting out dealer locations nationwide for a new brand of hemp powered three wheeled vehicles (HempenWaggens) guaranteed to “Take You Higher and Faster!”. Ryan Ramsey is certain to be the new overlord of a nationwide social club whose club hauses are suspiciously situated right beside these HempenWaggen locations. Roger Store will finally (FINALLY!) ditch both the Libertarian Party and Donald Trump and pledge his eternal loyalty to Christopher Cantwell while simultaneously releasing a book titled “Bring Me Christopher Cantwell”.

    I can see it so clearly now. I really need to start returning calls from that booker from The Rachel Maddow Show. The booker tells me that America needs an expose on these heretofore nearly unknown characters that are certainly the New Nazi Party (TM) [after these messages from our MSNBC sponsors].

  133. paulie Post author

    Aside from the failed attempt at satire….wtf are you smoking? And is it available in snortable or pill form?

  134. Thane Eichenauer

    IT was, no doubt, an oral ingestion of mac and beef, sweet red wine and strawberry sugar wafers. I call it the Recipe for Oracular Vision.

    Call it failed satire, call it a vision of a future certain to be true (I really should check with my lawyer I think Rachel has the trademark on that), call it a fleeting possession by the spirit of Paul Horner or a nightmarish tale of dystopia, it is what it is.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/27/business/media/paul-horner-dead-fake-news.html

  135. paulie Post author

    IT was, no doubt, an oral ingestion of mac and beef, sweet red wine and strawberry sugar wafers.

    Only if the wafers had ergot, the wine had turned to vinegar and the beef had mad cow.

    Call it failed satire

    I did. It was.

  136. Thomas L. Knapp

    I wouldn’t say it’s failed. Thane is over the top sometimes, but usually does have an interesting point to make.

    Riposte: History doesn’t repeat itself but it does occasionally rhyme. If there is an historical rhyme between Invictus/Cantwell/Ramsey and the original Nazis, I’d say that I should have characterized as SA rather than SS. The SA were the street-fighting thugs who got strangled with piano wire and so forth (see “Night of the Long Knive”) once they’d fulfilled their roles and became embarrassing/inconvenient to the more polished and respectable elements of their party.

  137. Luke

    Has anyone read thru the threads at the end of this article we are commenting on? Quite an eye opener if you haven’t.

  138. robert capozzi

    dL: Better conclusion: If you take it in the mouth from the moderate republicans, you will eventually take it up the ass from the alt-right.

    me: Charming. One could say that we are being schtupped daily and for decades by the Rs and Ds. The NAPster tends to respond with grandiose and generally unworkable constructs, which may well feel good to espouse but does nothing to curtail the schtuppery. Containment would involve getting one’s hands dirty, which NAPsters tend to eschew.

  139. paulie Post author

    That does indeed seem to be the ascendant faction that’s calling the shots in the NSGOP in a more and more consolidated fashion.

  140. robert capozzi

    pf and dL,

    It strikes me that alt-rightists have been descending on the LP more than moderate Rs have. It all seems like nonsense, since I don’t see any pressing for lessarchy. The worries about the LP being co-opted feels like Opus Dei worrying about Jesuits and Trappist monks infiltrating their self-flagellating ranks. It’s all an inconsequential sideshow.

  141. dL

    dL I am objecting to your claim that they are nothing but white identity politics.

    I wrote that the GOP for all and intents and purposes is now a party of white identity politics. Sort of hard to deny that when Donald Trump is now the face of conservatism and the republican party. Whatever polling you may cite(if you can ever get around to finding it) to make the case for political/wings divisions within the GOP can be countered by other studies/polling demonstrating that such divisions are secondary to the republican base(which is 90% white) fear that whites will lose majority status in the US within a generation or two.

  142. dL

    It strikes me that alt-rightists have been descending on the LP more than moderate Rs have. It all seems like nonsense, since I don’t see any pressing for lessarchy. The worries about the LP being co-opted feels like Opus Dei worrying about Jesuits and Trappist monks infiltrating their self-flagellating ranks. It’s all an inconsequential sideshow.

    It strikes me that American libertarianism has been bound to the intellectual culture of the right via conservative fusionism for 70 years. I think the prevailing view that libertarianism is the “Opus Dei” of principled conservatism has been the problem. I can reasonably speculate that embracing republicanism two iterations ago(e.g, Romney or Bush) because it looks reasonable next to the current iteration of republicanism(Trump) will have the result of making it the tabloid receptacle of the conservative gutter.

  143. dL

    Has anyone read thru the threads at the end of this article we are commenting on? Quite an eye opener if you haven’t.

    I’m not sure which link you are referring to, but I did read the LP mailing list one where I stumbled across a Wes Benedict post opining that libertarians had bullied Invictus. My suggestion is that Benedict probably should remove me from his LP fundraising appeals email list going forward.

  144. paulie Post author

    I think the reference was to the list of past IPR articles which I put at the end of the article we are commenting on and the discussions on those.

  145. robert capozzi

    dL: I think the prevailing view that libertarianism is the “Opus Dei” of principled conservatism has been the problem.

    me: How so?

    dL; I can reasonably speculate that embracing republicanism two iterations ago(e.g, Romney or Bush) because it looks reasonable next to the current iteration of republicanism(Trump) will have the result of making it the tabloid receptacle of the conservative gutter.

    me: Could be. Seems to me that during my lifetime, the political landsape hasn’t changed all that much. The Hard Left has declined in numbers, although Progressives have taken the place of communists and socialist workers in the pantheon. Libertarians are the only real addition to the ideological mix, but they’ve been almost completely ineffectual politically. Trumpian populism has always had a place on the landscape, although it has been on the dormant side for past few decades.

    I’m not sure why you think it’s important whether L-ism is considered the Opus Dei of rightism or leftism is especially consequential. Who cares about such academic minutiae except for academics?

    ____

    btw, I watched a podcast of Thaddeus Russell and Stefan Molineaux recently, discussion post-modernism. I see now why you call me “postmodernist.” However, my influences are more from India and China. My guess is the “postmodernists” are repackaging Eastern thought, which I find to be far more rigorous than is found in Western traditions.

  146. Luke

    The long term conflation of libertarianism and conservatism combined with the long term positioning of libertarianism in opposition to the establishment/powers that be creates a receptive environment for an “alternative right,” itself just a repackaging of white nationalism and bigotry, which seeks slightly more respectable cover (and in some cases ballot access).

  147. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    From the above you’d think no one thinks of us as pot smoking sex working libertine peacenik free speech advocates who like free markets too…

  148. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Search any of terms pot smoking- sex work – libertine – peacenik -free speech and “libertarian” and I’m sure you’ll get LOT OF relevant returns, both affirming it and denying it.

  149. Luke

    None of which matters. The most common definition by far in the minds of the general public is more like: far right, to the right of the Republicans, right wing fringe. No additional qualifiers, save for a few old timers who may throw “pot smoking” in there. But then Jeff Sessions did say the KKK would have been alright if they didn’t smoke pot.

  150. robert capozzi

    Luke,

    I see your point. If Ls position themselves as extremists and not socialists, the label of “alt right” makes some sense. “Alt left” would not make sense as a label in these times. “Alt centrist” would not make sense, given the extremism of the LP.

    Of course, labels can shift over time, but the LP has fused extremism into its core, so it limits its ability to be taken seriously by most.

  151. Luke

    Being centrist would not work either. The center is not dissatisfied enough with the Democrats and Republicans. Parties of the center perpetually fail to lift off unless they have a charismatic personality leading them and fade soon afterwards. The Reform Party was a shooting star, the Americans Elect effort was stillborn. Even the Moderate Party of Rhode Island was soon abandoned by its founder. At least parties of the far left and far right have some staying power, even if they never get very big. But the center is mushy and lacks backbone.

  152. robert capozzi

    Luke,

    If what you value is “staying power,” albeit on the fringe, then, yes, the LP is on track with the Socialist Workers Party. What that accomplishes is not obvious to me. Why organize as a party? Might be better to become a NAPster Fabian Society IF one is interested in changing law and rolling back government.

  153. Luke

    The LP is a lot better accomplished than the Socialist Workers Party.

    Why organize as a party? Nolan laid out a pretty good case in a paper in 1971, which I have seen linked in past threads here. I think his reasoning is still valid. I don’t want to take time to find the link right now but you can find it as easily as I can. Parties have access to public attention that other means of reaching the public don’t. Of course there is room to also organize as any number of other types of organizations, many of which already exist in the larger libertarian movement with more being created all the time. But the party does have a unique niche in making a lot of people who would not otherwise be aware that libertarian ideas exist or that there is a movement around them aware of these things. Indeed, this is where a lot of people come into the movement from, even if they don’t end up sticking around the party.

    Parties also gain unique leverage by their ability to swing close elections, challenge otherwise unchallenged candidates, and so on. They get unique opportunities to advertise, unique debate access and the attention that comes from being on the ballot. Sometimes it gives them the leverage to impact the positions of the candidates they run against.

    There are, incidentally, already libertarian or libertarianesque equivalents of the Fabian Society – Freedom Force International, for example.

  154. Thomas L. Knapp

    “Why organize as a party?”

    That’s a too general form of the question. The applicable question is “why did some people organize as THIS party?”

    The person who called for its organization gave seven reasons:

    First, and perhaps most important, we will be able to get a great deal more news coverage for ourselves and our ideas than we have ever gotten before. Public interest in political issues and philosophies is always at an all-time high during Presidential election years, and the media people are actively seeking news in this area.

    As a direct consequence of this fact, we will probably reach (and hopefully convert) far more people than we usually do; hopefully, some of these people will turn out to support our candidates, and will thus enable to locate hitherto-unlocatable libertarians (or at least sympathizers).

    Third, we will be able to get some idea of how much support we really do have (at least in potential form) around the country; if we can get 100,000 votes the first time out, we know there are at least 100,000 libertarians out there – and whatever number we get, we can figure that it represents only a small fraction of the total, as not all of our potential supporters will even hear about our efforts, and many of those who do will be in States where we can’t get on the ballot.

    Fourth, a libertarian political party would provide a continuing “focal point” for libertarian activity – something that “one-shot” projects do not provide.

    Fifth, we will be able to hasten the already emerging coalition between the libertarian “left” and libertarian “right”. At the moment, the former group is supporting people like Eugene McCarthy, while the latter is supporting people like Barry Goldwater. A truly libertarian party would draw support both from such “leftist” groups as the Institute for the Study of Non-Violence and the American Civil Liberties Union, and from “rightist” groups like the John Birch Society and the Liberty Amendment Committee, however. This would increase the political impact of the libertarian “movement”, as “leftist” and “rightist” libertarians now usually wind up voting so as to cancel each other (when they vote at all). Furthermore, libertarian votes now get lumped in with “liberal” and “conservative” votes, whereas the votes received by a libertarian party would not be hidden in this manner.

    A sixth point is favor of establishing a libertarian party is that by its mere existence, it would put some pressure on the other parties to take a more libertarian stand.

    An[d] finally, there is always the possibility that we might actually get some libertarians elected.

    “The Case for a Libertarian Party,” by David F. Nolan, The Individualist, July-August 1971

  155. Thomas L. Knapp

    Luke,

    GMTA. I just happened to have the link handy when I went to look at my un-completed manuscript on Nolan’s vision to see if I had finished the relevant part yet (I hadn’t — just the parts on constituencies and approaches).

  156. robert capozzi

    tk,

    Thanks. Some feedback:

    On #1: Yes, the most moderate and credible campaign did indeed garner significant media coverage…J/W 16. Prior efforts most in-line with NAPster strictures…not so much.

    On #2: The impulse to “convert” is revelatory.

    On #4: For the most part, the rest of the LM keeps its distance from the LP. This includes the blood-and-soil crowd in AL and the Orange Line Mafia.

    On #5: I see no evidence that the “emerging coalition” ever emerged.

    On #6: While this has happened in particular races, the center of R and D has not moved in a lessarchist direction since the LP’s founding. I suspect you’ll agree both parties are far more statist today than in 1971.

    On #7: Yes, it’s happened up the level of state legislator, despite the NAPster strictures. As the stakes rise, the scrutiny rises along with it.

  157. Pingback: The KN@PP Stir Podcast, Episode 140: Special Broadcast from Area 51 | Independent Political Report

  158. robert capozzi

    TK,

    Yes, that’s quite true.

    Critiques you’ve offered of, say, Johnson/Weld 16 may not have been “relevant” to why the campaign took position X, but you offered the critique anyway. And that’s helpful, in our collective struggle to find truth and to maximize peace and liberty.

    The Nolan took his swing, and I admire him for that. Unfortunately, it appears he made some very significant mistakes his efforts. Course correction is possible, but not by denying the obvious mistakes of the past.

  159. Luke

    Looks like a couple of the troll nazi blogs where Ramsey got his BS from finally got taken off of wordpress for terms of service violations.

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